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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  6:58:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
The ultimate buddha is the mind. The ultimate Dharma is the unmanifest truth. The ultimate sangha is phenomena.

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Sep 07 2009 7:01:37 PM
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  7:06:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
....and these are not-three?
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  7:10:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by chinna

....and these are not-three?



Absolutely not!
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  7:19:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

Alwayson, What you say is true. But I'm also talking about the physical guru. The Three Jewels here is inseparable from the Three Jewels there, down to the nature of mind itself, and the three kayas.



Of course Osel, for someone like yourself who has an official Vajrayana lama



Meeting with the Vajra Guru is the nature of phenomena.
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  7:33:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
The One Hundred Verses of Padmapa Sangye (Paramabuddha).

" Preface

Homage to the teacher!
Fortunate practitioners gathered here in Tingri, listen!

Just as worn-out clothes can never again be made as new,
It's no use seeing a doctor once you're terminally ill;
You'll have to go. We humans living on this earth
Are like streams and rivers flowing toward the ocean -
All living beings are heading for that single destination.

Now, like a small bird flying off from a treetop,
I, too, will not be here much longer; soon I must move on.

1

If you spend the present meaninglessly and leave with empty hands,
People of Tingri, a human life in the future will be very hard to find.

2

To apply yourselves with body, speech and mind to the sacred Teachings,
People of Tingri, is the best thing that you can do.

3

Give your very life, heart and soul to the Three Jewels [the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha],
People of Tingri, and their blessings cannot but arise.

4

Forget your goals for this life - concentrate instead on lives to come.
People of Tingri, that is the highest goal.

5

Families are as fleeting as a crowd on market day;
People of Tingri, don't bicker or fight.

6

Wealth and poverty, like a magic show, just seduce and deceive;
People of Tingri, don't let the knot of avarice bind you.

7

This body's just a bag containing various kinds of filth;
People of Tingri, don't pamper it and spruce it up so.

8

Family and friends are no more real than a magic show;
People of Tingri, in your fondness for them don't tie yourself down.

9

Country and land are like a nomad's pastures
People of Tingri, don't cling sentimentally to them.

10

As parents, all beings in the six realms have cared for you;
People of Tingri, don't relate to them with your ideas of "I" and "mine".

11

The day you were born, your death began approaching;
People of Tingri, remember: there is never any time to spare.

12

Fundamentally there's no delusion, it's an ephemeral occurrence;
People of Tingri, look at the nature of what it produces.

13

Without distraction apply yourselves to the sacred Dharma;
People of Tingri, after death it will guide you on the path.

14

The truth of cause and effect ensures that actions yield their full result;
People of Tingri, avoid all actions that are negative and evil.

15

Leave all your activities behind like a country in a dream;
People of Tingri, just put non-action into practice.

16

The very thing you feel attached to, let go of it, whatever -
People of Tingri, there isn't anything that you need.

17

Since you won't be staying in this world forever,
People of Tingri, make your preparations for the journey now.

18

If you first finish what you have to do, you'll never get to Dharma;
People of Tingri, while you're thinking about it, practice straight away.

19

Inside the forest, monkeys may be living happily at ease,
People of Tingri - but at the edges forest fires are closing in all round.

20

Birth, sickness, ageing and death flow on, a river without ford or bridge;
People of Tingri, have you prepared yourselves a boat?

21

In the narrow defiles of birth, death and the intermediate state
Bandits await - the five poisonous emotions - sure to ambush you;
People of Tingri, avail yourselves of the teacher as your escort.

22

Your never-failing source of refuge is the teacher;
People of Tingri, carry him constantly on the crown of your head.

23

If your protection is the teacher, you'll reach wherever you aspire to go;
People of Tingri, cultivate devotion as the fare you pay for the journey.

24

Those who get wealthy get miserly too;
People of Tingri, give generously without being partial.

25

Whoever gets power acts sinfully, too;
People of Tingri, abandon all desire for rank and power.

26

Those with rank and riches are never happy and at ease;
People of Tingri, get ready to claw at your chest in anguish.

27

In the next world, there are neither family nor friends;
People of Tingri, place your confidence in the Dharma.

28

If you wander in distraction, you'll waste the freedoms and advantages of human life;
People of Tingri, make a resolute decision now.

29

While you're busy being distracted, the demon of Death will catch you;
People of Tingri, practice from this very moment onwards.

30

When will the demon of Death appear? There is no easy way to tell;
People of Tingri, right now be always on your guard.

31

The day you die, there's no one who'll protect you;
People of Tingri, be ready to have yourselves alone to count on.

32

If you reflect on death, there's nothing you will need;
People of Tingri, always keep your death in mind.

33

Like lengthening shadows as the sun sinks low,
The demon of Death relentlessly draws nearer;
People of Tingri, quickly! Get away from him!

34

The morning's ravishing flower will wither by nightfall;
People of Tingri, don't put your hopes in your body.

35

Even if resembling, while alive, the children of the gods,
Once dead they are more frightful than a demon horde;
People of Tingri, you've been deceived by these illusory bodies.

36

Visitors to market day, their trading finished, on the morrow have dispersed;
People of Tingri, your friends will part from you, be certain.

37

Since the scarecrow conjured up by magic is sure to tumble down;
People of Tingri, act now according to the linking of effect with cause.

38

For sure, the vulture of your mind will one day fly away;
People of Tingri, now is the time to soar up to the heights.

39

All beings of the six realms have cared for you as parents;
People of Tingri, towards them cultivate your love and compassion.

40

Hate for enemies is samsara's hallucination, caused by actions;
People of Tingri, transmute your hatred and your hostile mind.

41

Prostration and circumambulation purify obscuration of the body;
People of Tingri, abandon all your worldly physical work.

42

Recitation and taking refuge purify obscuration of the speech;
People of Tingri, abandon all your ordinary conversation.

43

Fervent devotion purifies habitual tendencies of the mind;
People of Tingri, meditate on the teacher above your head.

44

Your flesh and bones took form together, but in the end are sure to separate;
People of Tingri, do not believe that you will live forever.

45

Capture that most sublime of countries, the constant land of the natural state;
People of Tingri, where there is no transition or change.

46

Enjoy that most sublime of riches, the treasure of the nature of mind;
People of Tingri, which cannot ever be depleted.

47

Savor that most sublime of foods, the exquisite taste of meditation,
People of Tingri, which abolishes the pangs of hunger.

48

Imbibe that most sublime of drinks, the ambrosia of mindfulness,
People of Tingri, whose flow is never interrupted.

49

Rely upon that most sublime companion, primordial awareness wisdom,
People of Tingri, from which you never can be parted.

50

Seek for that most sublime of progeny, the young child pure awareness,
People of Tingri, for which there is no birth or death.

51

In a state of emptiness, whirl the spear of pure awareness;
People of Tingri, the view is free of being caught by anything at all.

52

In a state without thoughts, without distraction, abandon the watcher;
People of Tingri, the meditation is free of any torpor or excitement.

53

In a state of natural spontaneity, train in being free of any holding back;
People of Tingri, in the action there is nothing to abandon or adopt.

54

The four bodies, indivisible, are complete in your mind;
People of Tingri, the fruit is beyond all hope and doubt.

55

The root of both samsara and nirvana is to be found within your mind;
People of Tingri, the mind is free of any true reality.

56

Desire and hate appear, but like birds in flight, should leave no trace behind;
People of Tingri, in meditation be free of clinging to experiences.

57

The unborn absolute body is like the very heart of the sun -
People of Tingri, there is no waxing or waning of its radiant clarity.

58

Thoughts come and go like a thief in an empty house -
People of Tingri, in fact there is nothing to be gained or lost.

59

Sensations leave no imprints, like drawings made on water;
People of Tingri, don't perpetuate deluded appearances.

60

Thoughts of attachment and aversion are like rainbows in the sky;
People of Tingri, there is nothing in them to be grasped or apprehended.

61

Mind's movements dissolve by themselves, like clouds in the sky;
People of Tingri, in the mind there are no reference points.

62

Without fixation, thoughts are freed by themselves, like the wind,
People of Tingri, which never clings to any object.

63

Pure awareness is without fixation, like a rainbow in the sky;
People of Tingri, experiences arise quite unimpededly.

64

Realization of the absolute nature is like the dream of a mute;
People of Tingri, there are no words to express it.

65

Realization is like a youthful maiden's pleasure;
People of Tingri, the joy and bliss cannot be described.

66

Clarity and emptiness united are like the moon reflecting in water;
People of Tingri, there is nothing to be attached to and nothing to impede.

67

Appearances and emptiness inseparable are like the empty sky;
People of Tingri, the mind is without either center or periphery.

68

The mind with no thought and no distraction is like the mirror of a beauty;
People of Tingri, it is free of any theoretical tenets.

69

Awareness and emptiness inseparable are like reflections in a mirror;
People of Tingri, nothing is born there and nothing ceases.

70

Bliss and emptiness inseparable are like the sun lighting up the snows;
People of Tingri, there is nothing there to apprehend.

71

Deluded talk will fade without a trace, like echoes;
People of Tingri, in sound there is nothing to be grasped.

72

Happiness and suffering, through a mechanism like the sounding of a lute's body and strings,
People of Tingri, are produced when actions are combined with necessary conditions.

73

The natural freedom of samsara and nirvana is like a children's game;
People of Tingri, have a mind without any aims.

74

Your notions of the outer world derive from the mind within;
People of Tingri, let the solid ice be melted into liquid.

75

The mechanism of ignorance is like the gush of a meadow spring;
People of Tingri, it cannot be halted by obstructing it.

76

The delusions of samsara and nirvana are like coming face to face with an enemy;
People of Tingri, as your ally practice virtue.

77

The natural clarity of the five kayas [aspects of enlightenment] is like the expanse of a continent of gold;
People of Tingri, there is no hope or doubt, attachment or aversion.

78

With its freedoms and advantages, human life is like a treasure island;
People of Tingri, do not come back an empty-handed failure.

79

The practice of the Great Vehicle is like a wish-fulfilling gem;
People of Tingri, however hard you search, it would be difficult to find again.

80

For this life, come what may, you'll have enough to eat and clothe yourself;
People of Tingri, put everything you have into practicing the Dharma.

81

While you are young, practice hard and with austerities;
People of Tingri, once you're old your constitution won't withstand it.

82

When emotions arise, bring antidotes to bear on them;
People of Tingri, let free all concepts in their very nature.

83

Think from time to time of all the defects of samsara;
People of Tingri, that will make your faith become much clearer.

84

Right now, develop diligence and stand your ground;
People of Tingri, when you die it will guide you on the path.

85

If you're not free now, when will you ever get to be free?
People of Tingri, your chance to eat comes only one time in a hundred.

86

Life is so ephemeral, like the dew on the grass;
People of Tingri, don't yield to laziness and indifference.

87

From where you are now, should you lose your footing,
People of Tingri, it will be hard to find a human life again.

88

The Buddha's teaching is like the sun shining through the clouds;
People of Tingri, now is the one time that it is present.

89

You say such clever things to people, but don't apply them to yourself;
People of Tingri, the faults within you are the ones to be exposed.

90

That faith succumbs to circumstance is only a short step away;
People of Tingri, contemplate samsara's imperfections.

91

Frequenting evil friends is bound to make your own behavior evil;
People of Tingri, abandon any friendships that are negative.

92

Frequenting virtuous friends is bound to make your own good qualities arise;
People of Tingri, follow your spiritual teachers.

93

Deception and lies deceive not only others, but yourself as well;
People of Tingri, as witness take your own conscience.

94

Delusion born from ignorance is the worst disaster-bearing demon;
People of Tingri, hold fast to your vigilance and mindfulness.

95

If you don't hold on to the three or five poisons [desire, hatred, ignorance, jealousy, pride], the path is near;
People of Tingri, generate powerful antidotes against them.

96

If your perseverance has no strength, you will not reach Buddhahood;
People of Tingri, make sure that you don that Armor.

97

Habitual tendencies, being old acquaintances, keep on coming back;
People of Tingri, don't go on following the past.

98

If your understanding and realization are weak, pray to your lord teacher;
People of Tingri, and deep meditation will be born in you.

99

If you aspire to happiness in future, accept your present trials;
People of Tingri - then Buddhahood is right here just beside you.

100

This old Indian master will not stay in Tingri, he will go away;
People of Tingri, it is now that you must clarify your doubts.

101

I myself have practiced without distraction;
People of Tingri, you too should follow this example."

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Sep 08 2009 11:39:53 AM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  7:40:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by chinna

....and these are not-three?



The unmanifest truth is the awakened mind which is the mountain, the river, the ocean, the sun, the moon and the stars...

Like that... the inconceivable clear great mind.

All this is Brahman.

Christi
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  8:18:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

quote:
Originally posted by chinna

....and these are not-three?



The unmanifest truth is the awakened mind which is the mountain, the river, the ocean, the sun, the moon and the stars...

Like that... the inconceivable clear great mind.

All this is Brahman.

Christi



Not Brahman. I don't think...
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  8:48:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
new book on Milarepa, Milarepa: Songs on the Spot
Milarepa meets Padampa Sangye

At Belly Cave in Nyanang, Milarepa saw the Lion-Face Dakini as the sun was rising. “Milarepa,” she said, “the Indian Padampa Sangye is going to Tongla. Won’t you go see him?”

When they met, Milarepa sang a song and Padampa Sangye in turn sang about Easing Suffering. The Jetsun listened to Dampa Sangye with keen pleasure. Absorbed in the song, he’d been sitting with his penis freely exposed. Dampa Sangye now exclaimed, “Look at you! That’s the one place you really should keep covered up . . . I wonder if you’re not a bit mad.” So the Jetsun sang the Song of the Madman:

Homage to the holy Lamas!
I take refuge in your kindness.
Please dispel obstacles
And lead me the right way.

People ask themselves,
Isn’t Milarepa a bit mad?
In truth, I think I am,
And here’s the method to my madness:

Mad father, mad son—
Madness is passed on.
Great Vajradhara is mad,
My ancestor, the excellent Tilopa, is quite mad,
And my grandfather, Naropa, is definitely mad.
Mad is my old father Marpa,
And I, Milarepa, why, I’m mad too!
This Vajradhara transmission
Of four enlightened bodies is madness.
Tilopa’s Mahamudra
Is an absolute madness.
Naropa’s ascetic awareness
Is mad, mad, mad!
My father, Marpa Lotsawa,
Is crazed by the demons of the four classes of tantra.
I, Milarepa, know mind and energy—
Most certainly a madness.

Mad is the view that holds no favorite
Mad the meditation that refuses references
Mad the conduct that hides no agenda
Mad the result that preys on neither hopes nor fears
Mad the promises kept honestly.

I’m more than mad, I’m a raving lunatic—
I drive demons mad
With the Lamas’ instructions.
I turn witches mad
With the dakinis’ blessings.
I dement the happy demented
With ultimate absorption.
I craze she-demons of realization
With games of enjoyment.

I’m more than a raving lunatic, I’m really sick—
I’ve got backaches from Mahamudra
And chest pains from Dzogchen
I’m weak from ‘vase breathing’
Feverish with wisdom from above
Chilled by meditation from below
Hot and cold from bliss and emptiness.
I vomit—oh-uh, there’s the oral instructions.
Then reality arouses me, and I lie back.

I’m beyond sickness, I’m a dead man—
In the view, which is vast,
I died along with my prejudices.
In meditation, which is spacious,
I died along with my ups and downs.
In conduct, which is extensive,
I died along with my moral claims.
In fruition, which is inclusive
I died along with my hopes and fears.
In samaya, which is universal,
I died along with my pretenses.
I, the yogi, died
In the planes of enlightenment.

I’m to die tonight? No shrouds for my body then:
Rather, the subtle perceptions of external appearances.
No strings for me:
Rather, the rope of the central channel.
No maudlin relatives:
Rather, the child-disciple of awareness.
For this yogi’s body, no gray funeral:
Rather, the path to enlightenment.

Guided by the dakinis,
Led by the Kagyu Lamas—
No meadow on a hill for my corpse:
Rather, the peak of Samantabhadra.
No cemeteries visited by foxes:
Rather, the pleasure grounds of wisdom and skillful means.
Yes! Vajradhara’s own grave!

Dampa Sangye was tickled. “I get your kind of madness!” he grinned. “What would you say if we performed a feast offering?” Milarepa responded. “You’re the host here,” said Dampa Sangye, “why don’t you set it up?”

So Milarepa split his own skull and took out his brains. He chopped off his neck and both his legs—these served to form the fire pit. Next he blazed flames from the tummo inner heat at his navel, setting his skull on fire brightly. Now Dampa Sangye turned his body into seven replicas, each sitting on a stalk of grass. Milarepa transformed into seven mandalas of the deity Demchok, complete with eight gates, and settled on seven grass stalks as well, sated with feast offerings. After a time, they each returned to his own home.
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  9:12:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
If one reads the Dalai Lama's "The Middle Way", one will see why Buddhism rejects atman/Brahman.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 07 2009 9:27:11 PM
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Etherfish

USA
3615 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  10:56:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Etherfish's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

The One Hundred Verses of Padmapa Sangya (Paramabuddha).



Shouldn't this be spelled "Padampa Sangye"?
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2009 :  04:06:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Alwayson,

quote:
If one reads the Dalai Lama's "The Middle Way", one will see why Buddhism rejects atman/Brahman.


The Buddha rejected the idea of Brahman as a view, or concept held in the mind, never as a direct experience. When something becomes one's direct experience, who could possibly reject it?

Christi
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2009 :  04:34:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

quote:
Originally posted by chinna

....and these are not-three?



The unmanifest truth is the awakened mind which is the mountain, the river, the ocean, the sun, the moon and the stars...

Like that... the inconceivable clear great mind.

All this is Brahman.

Christi



Precisely
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2009 :  04:47:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Alwayson,

quote:
If one reads the Dalai Lama's "The Middle Way", one will see why Buddhism rejects atman/Brahman.


The Buddha rejected the idea of Brahman as a view, or concept held in the mind, never as a direct experience. When something becomes one's direct experience, who could possibly reject it?

Christi




Yes, this argument must be seen in the context of the local competition of religious viewpoints, and the long history of argument about this issue. Always we (even the Buddha, it seems) attribute the subtlest interpretation to our own concepts, and the crudest to the other group. Perhaps it is unavoidable - verbal teaching will proceed as a succession of 'aunt sallies', in order to successively point to that which is beyond definition. Sankara later went on to do the same to 'dis' Buddhism, with considerable success at the time. And so on down the ages.

chinna
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2009 :  11:39:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

The One Hundred Verses of Padmapa Sangya (Paramabuddha).



Shouldn't this be spelled "Padampa Sangye"?



typo; i'll correct
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2009 :  11:42:05 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Alwayson,

quote:
If one reads the Dalai Lama's "The Middle Way", one will see why Buddhism rejects atman/Brahman.


The Buddha rejected the idea of Brahman as a view, or concept held in the mind, never as a direct experience. When something becomes one's direct experience, who could possibly reject it?

Christi



This is also the opinion of Milarepa. Paraphrased: "Don't fabricate names and ideas until you are realized. After your realization, call it what you want."
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2009 :  12:59:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by chinna

quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Alwayson,

quote:
If one reads the Dalai Lama's "The Middle Way", one will see why Buddhism rejects atman/Brahman.


The Buddha rejected the idea of Brahman as a view, or concept held in the mind, never as a direct experience. When something becomes one's direct experience, who could possibly reject it?

Christi




Yes, this argument must be seen in the context of the local competition of religious viewpoints, and the long history of argument about this issue. Always we (even the Buddha, it seems) attribute the subtlest interpretation to our own concepts, and the crudest to the other group. Perhaps it is unavoidable - verbal teaching will proceed as a succession of 'aunt sallies', in order to successively point to that which is beyond definition. Sankara later went on to do the same to 'dis' Buddhism, with considerable success at the time. And so on down the ages.

chinna



This is true. At the time of Shankaracharya, Buddhism was already behind its apex in Indian society. It had become muddled with social stuff. Shankaracharya came to present the "return to the pure" nostalgia, by blending Buddhism with Vedanta, so that Vendanta could have its time. This is the natural course of events.

So too in today's time, the Deity has had its run. First in the European Christian world, hence the early 20th Century blend of Vedanta with Christianity, and so on through the movements of atheism, Marxism, Existentialism, Analytic Philosophy (don't doubt how important this was and is to how governments have made policies and financiers have made decisions in the past century -- See Georg Soros), and now the "deification" of Physics as ultimate reality and Fractal Geometry as a mystical interest.

The Buddha talked a lot about space, planets, galaxies, atoms and so on. So meeting of the minds between Physics and Buddha Dharma is very natural.

All of this has to do with the natural ebb and flow of attachment and aversion at the social level, like the rise and fall of the financial markets owing to social level hopes and fears. For many, the Deity has become a dirty word with implications of social injustice and control. Yet, clearly, the free-for-all does not naturally help people arrive at happiness, and doesn't account for the need for ethics.

At the same time, the old repressions of sexuality and contrived ethic systems have created the conditions of great suffering. Now there is the reaction to that with the rising popularity of tantric sexual practices and bliss enjoyment. Because these practices are spiritual, a sense of well-being accompanies a sense of oneness and ethical concerns.

Because Buddhism has a tantric element, the majority of people's exposure has been with the Hindu variety, there is a cross-roads going on. While there is some difficulty integrating the fundamental teachings of Buddhism and Hinduism, Tantra is more or less free of those contraints, because of the emphasis on direct realization.

Buddhist tantra does have unique qualities and teachings that are distinct from Hindu Tantra, perhaps added layers, perhaps deeper layers peeled off. See Deity Yoga and Yoga of Illusory Body. That too is a question of direct experience.

In any event, it behooves the world for the non-sectarian type of Hindu Tantric practitioners to dive head-long into Tantric Buddhism, fully digest it and reveal the qualities that are shared and illuminate the qualities that are unique or not, and vice-versa. Perhaps this is impossible, perhaps that's what makes it probable. The beauty of synergy makes the possibility of integration of the two lineages very delectable.

My small $0.02 is that "Emptiness" is more appropriate because it is scientific, factually deducible. And while it might be matched by other terms and understandings, it is not surpassed as a realization by anyone, yogi, deity or astrophysicist.

Then again, that's just my karma, because my world is governmental officials, policy makers, scientists, lawyers and judges... fact lovers and thinkers, so that's where I'm coming from...

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Sep 08 2009 1:09:47 PM
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2009 :  2:08:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Brahma-nimantanika Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi...49.than.html

This particular Sutta is very imporant and must be addressed by the syncretists.
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2009 :  2:33:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Emptiness, according to Nagarjuna, is simply a non-affirming negation.

In other words, Buddhism does not make any claims about the nature of reality, therefore has none to defend.

But if you say there is a Brahman, you better defend that.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 08 2009 2:39:00 PM
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2009 :  3:16:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Form and emptiness are not-two.

Atman and Brahman are not-two.

Siva and Sakti are not-two.

Jesus, Holy Spirit in us, indefinable Godhead are three-in-one.

Seems to me that all these 'rough and ready' conceptual pairs and trios, and their associated practices, have the same liberating purpose.

I feel we make a mistake (Buddha and Sankara too) when we start thinking about these concepts too 'factually' and comparing on that basis, as at times we all do.

They are all just spiritual and philosophical tools for the job of getting beyond the false mind-self. Depending on the social/conceptual context, each will be more or less meaningful and effective, as Osel indicates.

Syncretism would be to try to combine these concepts into a single system, as I understand it. That seems to me beside the point. The point is to use whatever we come across which we find helpful in getting beyond all our concepts, and that may be quite an untidy unsystematic process, especially in our day. For me, all of the above concepts have been helpful, and using them all has illuminated what the others mean/how they work. I could never have got beyond 'factual' understandings of the christian Trinity (since that was the understanding schooled into me by the religious professionals) without the others.

It is interesting, nevertheless, to share how different traditions achieve the same goal.

chinna
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2009 :  6:51:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by chinna

Form and emptiness are not-two.

Atman and Brahman are not-two.

Siva and Sakti are not-two.

Jesus, Holy Spirit in us, indefinable Godhead are three-in-one.

Seems to me that all these 'rough and ready' conceptual pairs and trios, and their associated practices, have the same liberating purpose.

I feel we make a mistake (Buddha and Sankara too) when we start thinking about these concepts too 'factually' and comparing on that basis, as at times we all do.

They are all just spiritual and philosophical tools for the job of getting beyond the false mind-self. Depending on the social/conceptual context, each will be more or less meaningful and effective, as Osel indicates.

Syncretism would be to try to combine these concepts into a single system, as I understand it. That seems to me beside the point. The point is to use whatever we come across which we find helpful in getting beyond all our concepts, and that may be quite an untidy unsystematic process, especially in our day. For me, all of the above concepts have been helpful, and using them all has illuminated what the others mean/how they work. I could never have got beyond 'factual' understandings of the christian Trinity (since that was the understanding schooled into me by the religious professionals) without the others.

It is interesting, nevertheless, to share how different traditions achieve the same goal.

chinna



Illusory body yoga doesn't appear to have a correlate in any other system and is a step beyond the means of disposing of the mind-self.

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Sep 08 2009 8:35:26 PM
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2009 :  8:04:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
"Should one find a man who points out faults and who reproves, let him follow such a wise and sagacious person as one would a guide to hidden treasure. It is always better, and never worse, to cultivate such an association."
The Buddha, Dhammapada, Verse 76


quote:
106. Though month after month for a hundred years one should offer sacrifices by the thousands, yet if only for a moment one should worship those of perfected minds that honor is indeed better than a century of sacrifice.

107. Though for a hundred years one should tend the sacrificial fire in the forest, yet if only for a moment one should worship those of perfected minds, that worship is indeed better than a century of sacrifice.

108. Whatever gifts and oblations one seeking merit might offer in this world for a whole year, all that is not worth one fourth of the merit gained by revering the Upright Ones, which is truly excellent.

109. To one ever eager to revere and serve the elders, these four blessing accrue: long life and beauty, happiness and power.
The Buddha, Dhammapada


quote:
195-196. He who reveres those worthy of reverence, the Buddhas and their disciples, who have transcended all obstacles and passed beyond the reach of sorrow and lamentation — he who reveres such peaceful and fearless ones, his merit none can compute by any measure.
The Buddha, Dhammapada


Guru Yoga

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Sep 08 2009 8:53:19 PM
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2009 :  8:50:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
188. Driven only by fear, do men go for refuge to many places — to hills, woods, groves, trees and shrines.

189. Such, indeed, is no safe refuge; such is not the refuge supreme. Not by resorting to such a refuge is one released from all suffering.

190-191. He who has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Teaching and his Order, penetrates with transcendental wisdom the Four Noble Truths — suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the Noble Eightfold Path leading to the cessation of suffering. 16

192. This indeed is the safe refuge, this the refuge supreme. Having gone to such a refuge, one is released from all suffering.

Dhammapada


Refuge
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2009 :  9:10:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
236. Make an island for yourself! Strive hard and become wise! Rid of impurities and cleansed of stain, you shall enter the celestial abode of the Noble Ones.
Dhammapada


Pure land, Vajra body
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2009 :  01:25:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
The first textual support for Togal?

Kosala Sutta

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi...29.than.html

In Togal, one dissolves winds associated with elements (earth, fire, water, air, space) into lights (blue, red, yellow, white, clear).

quote:
"There are these ten totality-dimensions. Which ten? One perceives the earth-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual,3 unlimited. One perceives the water-totality... the fire-totality... the wind-totality... the blue-totality... the yellow-totality... the red-totality... the white-totality... the space-totality... the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. These are the ten totalities. Now, of these ten totalities, this is supreme: when one perceives the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. And there are beings who are percipient in this way. Yet even in the beings who are percipient in this way there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.


But the ultimate method is described as follows in this Sutta

quote:
"There are some priests & contemplatives who proclaim the foremost Unbinding in the here-&-now. Now, of those who proclaim the foremost Unbinding in the here-&-now, this is supreme: liberation through non-clinging, having known, as they actually are present, the arising, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks of, & the escape from the six sense-contact media. And when I teach that, when I point that out, some priests & contemplatives accuse me of being false, unfactual, hollow, vain, [saying,] 'The contemplative Gotama does not declare the full comprehension of sensuality, does not declare the full comprehension of forms, does not declare the full comprehension of feelings.' But I do declare the full comprehension of sensuality, I do declare the full comprehension of forms, I do declare the full comprehension of feelings. Unhungering, unbound, cooled in the here-&-now, I declare total Unbinding from lack of clinging."


This foremost Unbinding is the same as taught in Mahamudra, Great Perfection as the nature of mind, rigpa, dharmakaya, etc., the uncoiling itself like the snake.

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Sep 09 2009 02:31:27 AM
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2009 :  05:10:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

Illusory body yoga doesn't appear to have a correlate in any other system and is a step beyond the means of disposing of the mind-self.



The illusory I-am-the-body idea is just another aspect of the illusory mind-self, indeed is its principle hook. Jnana yogis always point to the illusory I-am-the-body idea, though as with all their teaching do not tend to separate bits out as separate yogas. It's all jnana yoga.

Perhaps you mean something else?

chinna
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