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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2009 :  3:54:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

"Longchenpa states that that all internal and external phenomenon as they appear in the present moment, prior to reification and conceptualization, can be identified with the dharmakaya."

-Approaching the Great Perfection



That's not a quote from Longchenpa. I don't agree with this assertion.

The Dharmakaya is emptiness. It is not the present moment. The present moment cannot even be found to exist. The above objectifies emptiness as an identifiable.

If one is meditating on the present moment, then that is grasping the present moment.



Maybe you should read "Approaching the Great Perfection" and write a critique on the book. The author strikes me as extraordinarily knowledgeable.

You could probably borrow it for free with an interlibrary loan

P.S. I agree taking Mahayana refuge, which you can do on your own by visualizing the Buddha in front of you, would supercharge everyone's practice



I actually own the book, and all the books Longchenpa wrote that have been translated to English. I have received all the Kagyu and Nyingmapa pith instructions. That doesn't matter anymore. My experience of things is that description of the present moment is not the Dharmakaya. It's just ordinary thought.

The present moment and all things relevant to it is purely conceptual. The author of that book may be knowledgeable, but his statement is not from the POV of a practitioner. HH Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche, Shabkar, Mila, Jigten Sumgon, etc., etc., describe it differently. The Buddha never mentions the present moment, except to say that the three times are emptiness. In that sense, the past moment and the future moment are equally the Dharmakaya.

quote:
"Longchenpa states that that all internal and external phenomenon as they appear in the present moment, prior to reification and conceptualization, can be identified with the dharmakaya."


You cannot identify the Dharmakaya. Longchenpa doesn't ever say this or it's a mistranslation or misunderstanding.

Once manifestations are pointed as the Dharmakaya, then what is the meditation? The View? The Action? The Fruit? Are they distinct? Identical?

PS. The pith instructions I practice come from Lord Jigten Sumgon, who has a special emphasis on interdependent origination and emptiness. Also, if one reads Gongchig, one will recognize that Lord Jigten Sumgon took the "pith" part of pith instructions very seriously, and his teachings are extremely brief, concise statements (which is more than I can say for me). Gongchig is a complete exposition of the Dharma in roughly 150 short sentences. My Lama is always reminding us to find the "short cut," or "the main point." I'm working on it.

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 06 2009 4:02:11 PM
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2009 :  4:06:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

The fundamental distinction between the paths is refuge in the Three Jewels. The Buddha, Dharma and Sangha makes the two paths very different. Realization is just realization; there's not a lot special about it. This is where the two paths diverge. The full realization of emptiness can only happen with the help of the Three Jewels. One must rely on them with faith; then, the blessings of the lineage arrive as extra juice, power for complete cleansing, traversing the paths and bhumis, and transformation into full buddhahood.

I'm not saying Buddhism is superior. All I'm saying is that if we are going to be truly holistic, circumspect and open-minded, then Buddhism must be understood, right Chinna?



Thanks Osel,

Yes, I acknowledge that my understanding of Buddhism is very limited, and my questions are asked in pursuit of that understanding. My understanding really only encompasses Zen, which I suppose one might characterise as Buddhist jnana, though with the difference as you say of refuge. A jnani will of course be devoted to his/her teacher, the one who offers nothing but the demand that you find it out for yourself, and will recognise that the teacher is truth itself, encompassing everything, and that the communion of devotees who have realised this is indivisible from the teacher and also from oneself. But a key difference for many jnanis might be that this recognition is as a result of realisation, rather than as a result of taking refuge at the outset. I have no doubt that the same realisation comes to the non-buddhist as the buddhist, albeit using different language. I recognise that (per Dogen) assuming the truths represented by 'refuge' from the outset might be helpful, but it seems to me that this is for a certain type of person (the same type of person who might, say, accept/take refuge in the truths of the christian trinity before realising them in him/herself). For others, the strength is in accepting nothing, speaking only from experience at every step, and as a result eventually realising the 'three jewels' (in whatever culture/language) from experience. So I suppose my only disagreement might be with the idea that advaita means stopping at a lesser realisation which doesn't include what buddhism calls the three jewels, and which are represented in different words in other traditions. In other words, I don't think Buddhism owns the three jewels or what it means to recogise the non-duality of them and of oneself.

chinna
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2009 :  4:40:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by chinna

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

The fundamental distinction between the paths is refuge in the Three Jewels. The Buddha, Dharma and Sangha makes the two paths very different. Realization is just realization; there's not a lot special about it. This is where the two paths diverge. The full realization of emptiness can only happen with the help of the Three Jewels. One must rely on them with faith; then, the blessings of the lineage arrive as extra juice, power for complete cleansing, traversing the paths and bhumis, and transformation into full buddhahood.

I'm not saying Buddhism is superior. All I'm saying is that if we are going to be truly holistic, circumspect and open-minded, then Buddhism must be understood, right Chinna?



Thanks Osel,

Yes, I acknowledge that my understanding of Buddhism is very limited, and my questions are asked in pursuit of that understanding. My understanding really only encompasses Zen, which I suppose one might characterise as Buddhist jnana, though with the difference as you say of refuge. A jnani will of course be devoted to his/her teacher, the one who offers nothing but the demand that you find it out for yourself, and will recognise that the teacher is truth itself, encompassing everything, and that the communion of devotees who have realised this is indivisible from the teacher and also from oneself. But a key difference for many jnanis might be that this recognition is as a result of realisation, rather than as a result of taking refuge at the outset. I have no doubt that the same realisation comes to the non-buddhist as the buddhist, albeit using different language. I recognise that (per Dogen) assuming the truths represented by 'refuge' from the outset might be helpful, but it seems to me that this is for a certain type of person (the same type of person who might, say, accept/take refuge in the truths of the christian trinity before realising them in him/herself). For others, the strength is in accepting nothing, speaking only from experience at every step, and as a result eventually realising the 'three jewels' (in whatever culture/language) from experience. So I suppose my only disagreement might be with the idea that advaita means stopping at a lesser realisation which doesn't include what buddhism calls the three jewels, and which are represented in different words in other traditions. In other words, I don't think Buddhism owns the three jewels or what it means to recogise the non-duality of them and of oneself.

chinna



You're right, Buddhism does not have a higher realization of non-duality. Non-duality is non-duality. What Buddhism does have is the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha, which is something not even close to being limited to a Teacher, a Teaching and a Congregation. The Three Jewels produces new Buddhas. The Three Jewels resembles Christianity only superficially (and excludes the possibility of new Christs). If you read the passages I posted early there is information there that is helpful. The Three Jewels have a unique mode of empowerment, urging the practitioner to push through to unique activities (of a Buddha).

The Vajra Guru does exactly what you describe. S/he instantly challenges one's beliefs, preconceptions, etc., and sets one on a head on collision with direct experience. That is the nature of the Guru, to liberate you.

Ultimately, the Three Jewels are emptiness, so there is nothing to believe in, accept, discuss or realize. One is free to become whatever will liberate all sentient beings without effort.

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 06 2009 4:52:13 PM
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2009 :  5:25:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
'A Teacher, a Teaching and a Congregation' is also not even close to what these three represent when their truth is realised. So what's different? These too are emptiness, in all its liberating power.

And I didn't say that the christian Trinity resembles Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. I said that it is the same kind of person who will be able to take Buddhist refuge (ie in something which has not yet been personally realised) as would be able to adopt a similar stance towards christian doctrine without having realised it for themselves. I was unable to do either.

chinna
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2009 :  5:35:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by chinna

'A Teacher, a Teaching and a Congregation' is also not even close to what these three represent when their truth is realised. So what's different? These too are emptiness, in all its liberating power.

And I didn't say that the christian Trinity resembles Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. I said that it is the same kind of person who will be able to take Buddhist refuge (ie in something which has not yet been personally realised) as would be able to adopt a similar stance towards christian doctrine without having realised it for themselves. I was unable to do either.

chinna



Well in any event, one must rely on a teacher. That's refuge. Everyone takes refuge one way or another. You can't have a realization before that. You had faith in someone's words before you took up some practice. There's no getting around it.

The Three Jewels is so prominent in Buddhist practice, because the Buddhahood is the goal.

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 06 2009 5:37:14 PM
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2009 :  5:46:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

Well in any event, one must rely on a teacher. That's refuge. Everyone takes refuge one way or another. You can't have a realization before that. You had faith in someone's words before you took up some practice. There's no getting around it.

The Three Jewels is so prominent in Buddhist practice, because the Buddhahood is the goal.



Yes, I agree with that. I was encouraged by several teachers to believe that my experience was true, and that I didn't need others to tell me what to think or experience.

chinna

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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2009 :  6:55:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje
I actually own the book, and all the books Longchenpa wrote that have been translated to English.



And which books are these? Just curious. I might want to obtain them.

P.S. So if I provide a quote of Longchenpa with source talking about the present moment, you would call that a mistranslation?
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2009 :  7:59:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by chinna

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

Well in any event, one must rely on a teacher. That's refuge. Everyone takes refuge one way or another. You can't have a realization before that. You had faith in someone's words before you took up some practice. There's no getting around it.

The Three Jewels is so prominent in Buddhist practice, because the Buddhahood is the goal.



Yes, I agree with that. I was encouraged by several teachers to believe that my experience was true, and that I didn't need others to tell me what to think or experience.

chinna





And then you were taught Advaita and now you teach it. Of course, you should scrutinize, and think for yourself... That is fundamental.

In Buddhism, we believe that Buddhahood cannot be done on one's own. The Buddha Shakyamuni made offerings and received teachings from countless Buddhas before attaining Buddhahood. It is the same for anyone who achieves the body of transformation.

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 06 2009 8:33:11 PM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2009 :  8:02:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje
I actually own the book, and all the books Longchenpa wrote that have been translated to English.



And which books are these? Just curious. I might want to obtain them.

P.S. So if I provide a quote of Longchenpa with source talking about the present moment, you would call that a mistranslation?



For example, "The Basic Space of Phenomena," "The Treasury of Pith Instructions." Etc.

PS. If you have a quote just post it. Just share. FYI Everyone experiences the present moment. The present moment is not the path of seeing which comes with the 1st Bhumi.
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machart

USA
342 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2009 :  10:17:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje


In Buddhism, we believe that Buddhahood cannot be done on one's own.



Hi Konchok...

I enjoy your contributions to the forum but don't understand some things you say due to my ignorance in Buddhism...can you help me on some fundamental issues...

1) Who is "we"? ...are you speaking for all Buddhists?
2) When you say "...cannot be done on one's own". Are you saying one needs a physical guru?


My limited understanding of Buddhism views it as a beautiful scientific method of mind control and not a religion...
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2009 :  10:23:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Osel,

One path opens at first bhumi, and another path opens up at eight bhumi, but I forget the names of the paths

Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 07 2009 12:17:50 AM
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  12:44:39 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by machart
Are you saying one needs a physical guru?



I believe Osel is simply saying one needs to take Mahayana refuge, which can be done on one's own without anyone.

Once you take Mahayana refuge, it opens the magical door.


Just like in evangelical Christianity, you can't be saved without verbally accepting Jesus as your savior, you can't obtain Buddhahood without Mahayana refuge.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 07 2009 01:11:55 AM
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  04:57:59 AM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

quote:
Originally posted by chinna

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

Well in any event, one must rely on a teacher. That's refuge. Everyone takes refuge one way or another. You can't have a realization before that. You had faith in someone's words before you took up some practice. There's no getting around it.

The Three Jewels is so prominent in Buddhist practice, because the Buddhahood is the goal.



Yes, I agree with that. I was encouraged by several teachers to believe that my experience was true, and that I didn't need others to tell me what to think or experience.

chinna





And then you were taught Advaita and now you teach it. Of course, you should scrutinize, and think for yourself... That is fundamental.

In Buddhism, we believe that Buddhahood cannot be done on one's own. The Buddha Shakyamuni made offerings and received teachings from countless Buddhas before attaining Buddhahood. It is the same for anyone who achieves the body of transformation.



I would agree that 'on one's own' is the primary illusion, and that we are never that.

So we repeatedly find that we come at the same realities with different emphases, but not really disagreeing when we delve deeper. Which I would say is how different traditions can sometimes best be illuminated, rather than speaking only for themselves. And one reason why this forum is so interesting.

chinna
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AnEternalNow

Singapore
9 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  10:46:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit AnEternalNow's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

quote:
Originally posted by machart
Are you saying one needs a physical guru?



I believe Osel is simply saying one needs to take Mahayana refuge, which can be done on one's own without anyone.

Once you take Mahayana refuge, it opens the magical door.


Just like in evangelical Christianity, you can't be saved without verbally accepting Jesus as your savior, you can't obtain Buddhahood without Mahayana refuge.

Mahayana does not require taking guru as refuge, that is Vajrayana.
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  11:02:50 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by machart

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje


In Buddhism, we believe that Buddhahood cannot be done on one's own.



Hi Konchok...

I enjoy your contributions to the forum but don't understand some things you say due to my ignorance in Buddhism...can you help me on some fundamental issues...

1) Who is "we"? ...are you speaking for all Buddhists?
2) When you say "...cannot be done on one's own". Are you saying one needs a physical guru?


My limited understanding of Buddhism views it as a beautiful scientific method of mind control and not a religion...



We means all Buddhists rely on a physical teacher, the dharma, the sangha and the Buddha's teachings. Even at the Theravada method, one cannot go beyond the formless realms without some help from these supports.

The Mahayana method of of refuge is the Bodhisattva vow and refuge in all the Buddhas and bodhisattvas of the various Pure Lands. It is a greater refuge than just the one's here on Earth. In Zen, for example, there is also the Zen master. Sangha also applies here. Though physical guru is not required.

The Vajrayana method of refuge is that the Vajra Guru's mind is the Buddha, his speech is the Dharma and his Body is the Sangha. Here we have special emphasis on the physical guru. But also one's own body, speech and mind is the Guru. The practitioner gets into a sort of "Vulcan Mind Meld" with the Guru.

As Alwayson said, we Buddhists believe the Three Jewels gives blessings. Because we hold that the Buddha's mind is beyond our conception, ability to describe, and beyond even the Gods, we take refuge. We drop our guard, so that some of that wisdom can seep in.

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 07 2009 11:45:13 AM
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  11:38:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by AnEternalNow
Mahayana does not require taking guru as refuge, that is Vajrayana.




I never said anything about taking physical guru as refuge. Osel isn't either.

We are talking about refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, combined with the special Mahayana elements in Mahayana refuge. And this opens the magical door to Buddhahood, similar to accepting Jesus as savior in Christianity.

Osel's point was that Gautama Buddha is your guru, if you don't have a physical guru.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 07 2009 11:47:34 AM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  2:13:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Alwayson, What you say is true. But I'm also talking about the physical guru. The Three Jewels here is inseparable from the Three Jewels there, down to the nature of mind itself, and the three kayas.
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gumpi

United Kingdom
546 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  3:52:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit gumpi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Actually, Osel said 1) a physical TEACHER.

Of course Buddhism isn't a religion, not Buddha's instructions anyway. THe rest of it is religion.

All this talk about magical bodies has absolutely nothing to do with reality. And you are not your own guru if you believe that the Buddha's mind is beyond conception. You worship the Buddha. This is not standing on your own two feet and being a man. That is EXACTLY what Buddha taught you should do. Instead, you are talking about minds of religious icons that cannot be possibly understood by your own mind or anyone else's. This, obviously, is not logical sense.

I do not apologise for the tone of this post because i insulted no person.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  4:00:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Chinna,

quote:
And I didn't say that the christian Trinity resembles Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. I said that it is the same kind of person who will be able to take Buddhist refuge (ie in something which has not yet been personally realised) as would be able to adopt a similar stance towards christian doctrine without having realised it for themselves. I was unable to do either.



For many Buddhists who take refuge the Buddha represents the Awakened mind, the Dharma represents the true teachings and practices which lead to the realization of awakening, and the sangha are the community of spiritual practitioners who study the teachings and follow the practices. Taking refuge in the awakened mind, simply means believing that awakening is a possibility and is attainable through practice. Taking refuge in the Dharma simply means that you believe the practices taught are likely to bear good fruit. Taking refuge in the sangha means that whatever happens, you know that there are many other people arround you who will support you on your path.

It's not at all a big deal.

quote:
I would agree that 'on one's own' is the primary illusion, and that we are never that.

So we repeatedly find that we come at the same realities with different emphases, but not really disagreeing when we delve deeper. Which I would say is how different traditions can sometimes best be illuminated, rather than speaking only for themselves. And one reason why this forum is so interesting.



Yes, it is beautiful when you begin to see that all religions are really pointing to the same thing, and all lead, ultimately, to the same goal. Neverending bliss and outpouring divine love.

Christi
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  4:14:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Chinna,

quote:
And I didn't say that the christian Trinity resembles Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. I said that it is the same kind of person who will be able to take Buddhist refuge (ie in something which has not yet been personally realised) as would be able to adopt a similar stance towards christian doctrine without having realised it for themselves. I was unable to do either.



For many Buddhists who take refuge the Buddha represents the Awakened mind, the Dharma represents the true teachings and practices which lead to the realization of awakening, and the sangha are the community of spiritual practitioners who study the teachings and follow the practices. Taking refuge in the awakened mind, simply means believing that awakening is a possibility and is attainable through practice. Taking refuge in the Dharma simply means that you believe the practices taught are likely to bear good fruit. Taking refuge in the sangha means that whatever happens, you know that there are many other people arround you who will support you on your path.

It's not at all a big deal.

quote:
I would agree that 'on one's own' is the primary illusion, and that we are never that.

So we repeatedly find that we come at the same realities with different emphases, but not really disagreeing when we delve deeper. Which I would say is how different traditions can sometimes best be illuminated, rather than speaking only for themselves. And one reason why this forum is so interesting.



Yes, it is beautiful when you begin to see that all religions are really pointing to the same thing, and all lead, ultimately, to the same goal. Neverending bliss and outpouring divine love.

Christi



Thank you Christi. That reflects the kind of understanding of taking refuge which I have imagined it might in essence mean. And if that is refuge, you can count me in.

chinna

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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  4:29:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

Alwayson, What you say is true. But I'm also talking about the physical guru. The Three Jewels here is inseparable from the Three Jewels there, down to the nature of mind itself, and the three kayas.



Of course Osel, for someone like yourself who has an official Vajrayana lama
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  4:38:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I highly recommend reading the Diamond Sutra:

http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamon...slation.html

"Subhuti, any person who awakens faith upon hearing the words or phrases of this Sutra will accumulate countless blessings and merit."

"So when a person who hears the words and phrases of this Sutra is ready for it to happen, a pure faith and clarity can awaken within their minds."

What is faith? What are blessings? What is the Buddha? What is Dharma? This Sutra answers these questions.

quote:
Then Buddha asked Subhuti, "What do you think, Subhuti, has the Buddha arrived at the highest, most fulfilled, most awakened and enlightened mind? Does the Buddha teach any teaching?"

Subhuti replied, "As far as I have understood the lord Buddha's teachings, there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, awakened or enlightened mind. Nor is there any independently existing teaching that the Buddha teaches. Why? Because the teachings that the Buddha has realized and spoken of cannot be conceived of as separate, independent things and therefore cannot be described. The truth in them is uncontainable and inexpressible. It neither is, nor is it not. What does this mean? What this means is that Buddhas and disciples are not enlightened by a set method of teachings, but by an internally intuitive process which is spontaneous and is part of their own inner nature."

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 07 2009 4:47:32 PM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  4:39:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Actually, Osel said 1) a physical TEACHER.

Of course Buddhism isn't a religion, not Buddha's instructions anyway. THe rest of it is religion.

All this talk about magical bodies has absolutely nothing to do with reality. And you are not your own guru if you believe that the Buddha's mind is beyond conception. You worship the Buddha. This is not standing on your own two feet and being a man. That is EXACTLY what Buddha taught you should do. Instead, you are talking about minds of religious icons that cannot be possibly understood by your own mind or anyone else's. This, obviously, is not logical sense.

I do not apologise for the tone of this post because i insulted no person.



Gumpi, what do make of the Vinaya? No one worships the Buddha. The Buddha is the teacher. If you think the Buddha's mind is within your conception, then you completely misunderstood the meaning of the Buddha's teachings.

Read the Sama˝˝aphala Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi....0.than.html

Diamond Sutra
http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamon...slation.html

Lankavatara Sutra
http://lirs.ru/do/lanka_eng/lanka-n...critical.htm

Heart Sutra
http://www.fodian.net/English/HeartSutra.pdf

Then, get back to me.

The Buddha gives extensive descriptions of the magical bodies and their purpose.

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 07 2009 6:38:23 PM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  5:02:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
The bottom line of the Buddha's teachings is that one cannot be a genuine help to others until one actualizes one's highest possible potential.

And one cannot manifest one's highest possible potential until one recognizes the essence of potentiality (not being or non-being, beyond concepts, spontaneous, nature of mind, Emptiness, Dharmakaya, Self-Realization, etc.) And pure being, i.e., Buddhahood.

The Buddha's teaching emphasizes one's own mind has this unlimited potential, not some external thing or something greater than you already are.

All the terms, concepts and methods (which must be discarded, like one discards the oars of a boat once the river has been crossed) are just to help one realize their own pure unimpeded potential perfection. One mustn't mistake the finger pointing at the moon for the moon.

So there's nothing to realize, mostly just junk to discard. People's karma draws them toward knowledge, like bodies are drawn toward the sun. All beings are primordially enlightened and will all ultimately reach the goal. The explanations and descriptions that provide inspiration to the wanderer are what they are when they are needed.

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 07 2009 5:06:29 PM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2009 :  6:26:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Chinna,

quote:
Thank you Christi. That reflects the kind of understanding of taking refuge which I have imagined it might in essence mean. And if that is refuge, you can count me in.

chinna



Welcome to the club!

And of course, the word sangha (the spiritual community) is not in any way limited to practitioners of the Buddhist path. We are all sangha... and that's why we come here.

Once the Buddha was walking along with his main disciple called Ananda. Ananda said to the Buddha: "Venerable sir, sometimes I feel that the sangha is half of the spiritual life", and the Buddha turned to him and said: "No Ananda, the sangha is the whole of the spiritual life."

The Buddha clearly understood the non-dual nature of reality.

Christi
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