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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  10:52:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje
Kagyu view is that RB is not important. Some Kagyu masters' entire bodies just disappear, like Marpa.



Why don't you consider this rainbow body??!!
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  11:10:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by cosmic

quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi

Perfect! Then we can finally put this thread to rest?


Never!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3khTntOxX-k



Not to throw more wood on the fire, but I thought all the talk of disappearing/leaving/dissolving/etc. was just poetic metaphor dissolving the ego/merging with the divine/etc. Is this not the case?

Forgive the ignorance on this matter.

With Love
cosmic



not a metaphor
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  12:16:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje
Kagyu view is that RB is not important. Some Kagyu masters' entire bodies just disappear, like Marpa.



Why don't you consider this rainbow body??!!



Dharmakaya
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  08:02:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Osel,

quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje
Kagyu view is that RB is not important. Some Kagyu masters' entire bodies just disappear, like Marpa.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Why don't you consider this rainbow body??!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Dharmakaya


I believe the Dharmakaya is one of the three aspects of the body of light (rainbow body).

Christi
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  09:43:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje
Kagyu view is that RB is not important. Some Kagyu masters' entire bodies just disappear, like Marpa.



Why don't you consider this rainbow body??!!



Dharmakaya



Lol, I am just not going to go here, otherwise it will be another 20 pages
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  10:04:57 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Osel,

quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje
Kagyu view is that RB is not important. Some Kagyu masters' entire bodies just disappear, like Marpa.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Why don't you consider this rainbow body??!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Dharmakaya


I believe the Dharmakaya is one of the three aspects of the body of light (rainbow body).

Christi



That's right. The Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya are part of the Rupakaya (form body of a buddha). Dharmakaya is emptiness.
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  10:40:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi

Perfect! Then we can finally put this thread to rest?

Love,
Carson



Is that why you entered it? I think you had something to add.



Yes, I entered this conversation because I felt I had something to add. I added it. Seems it doesn't hold the same emphasis for others it holds for me. No big deal. Carry on I guess?

Love,
Carson

Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 02 2009 10:40:50 AM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  11:38:00 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi all,

I think it is possible that the essential nature of this aspect of Buddhist teaching is being somewhat missed here. It isn't that in Tibetan Buddhism people sit around waiting to die, hoping that they will just disappear and then become enlightened. As Osel said above, the rainbow body is attained in this lifetime, through engaging in spiritual practices. You could say that it is a side effect of spiritual practices, which occurs naturally on the path.

In Tibetan Buddhism some people engage in specific practices to develop this aspect of the path, just as here at AYP we do specific practices to awaken and guide the kundalini energy. As I see it, the transformation of the body of light is a kind of higher end aspect of kundalini. It is what happens when the kundalini process proper is coming to an end and is beginning to spill over. The transformation effects the way the body manifests in the subtle realms of light and also the way the world is perceived. Just as the physical begins to take a backstage role in the human body, so the physical begins to take a backstage role everywhere. The body begins to light up from the inside like a christmas tree, at the same time as the physical world begins to dissolve, giving way to the shining lights of the subtle celestial.

What happens at the time of death? I guess we don't really know (any of us), until we do.

It isn't just Buddhists that this aspect of enlightenment happens to. It is a universal phenomenon, and is found here in AYP also. In other words, this is where we are all heading.

As Yogaini wrote in the main lessons:

http://www.aypsite.org/350.html
quote:
But we are not to be completely transformed to this condition of freedom and divine radiance in a single day, or even a single year. It is a process, a journey, first to the witness stage, and then moving steadily beyond the witness stage into Oneness. Along the way the temporal world as we have known it dissolves in the blazing light of Being, even while we have gone nowhere,


So something does disappear... but it's only something that never existed in the first place.

Christi

Edited by - Christi on Sep 02 2009 11:55:55 AM
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miguel

Spain
1197 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  11:55:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Beautiful and inspiring christi.Thank you.
Like the christmas trees also

Edited by - miguel on Sep 02 2009 11:56:56 AM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  12:51:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
The Body of Light is what we already are, but due to obstructions/obscurations/impurity/attachment/confusion/misidentification, we can't tell, can't see it, unclear about it.

Practices on AYP, in tantra, in Dzogchen and Mahamudra all seek to cleanse, open, remove obstructions, clarify, purify, release, and cure the sickness of fixation and anxiety. No?

Then the winds of attachment give way to winds of wisdom. The wisdom winds are aware they are non-arising from an ocean of equanimity non-dual with the nature of all phenomena. The winds of attachment are not. Both are phenomena non-arising from emptiness/silence/stillness/compassion/love/infinite potential/possibility of the impossible/blessings.

The face in the mirror. The dynamic of inquiry. The buddha's body as the fruit of one's own body, speech and mind. The Cosmos as the mandala of liberation. The long lost beloved returning home after missing for many years. The impossibility of unsurpassed beauty and joy, asking that question, "how to make it possible?" "How to make compassion both limitless and not empty?"

Total integration.
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miguel

Spain
1197 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  12:58:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
The long lost beloved returning home after missing for many years.


...
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grihastha

USA
184 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  2:34:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit grihastha's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Osel, that was the best thing you've written so far.

Christi, your post was extremely beautiful.

Thanks, both of you. Dharma friendship in action.

gri
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  4:18:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi, Konchok and All....

I'm sorry for being unclear in what I have been trying to say.

I know that the emphasis being put on attaining a Rainbow Body is not because you will "disappear" from this realm....but from my understanding that is basically what happens when you attain the Rainbow Body....if I am incorrect please correct me. For me, I just like living in the 3D world so much that I am in no hurry to leave. But basically what I have been trying to get across could be stated as; "One thing at a time". And where we each are on the Path is what indicates what that One thing should be. If you guys have refined your kundalini to the point that it is appropriate to be focussing on acheiving the Rainbow Body, then that is where you are at and I guess this discussion is appropriate for you. I was simply trying to point out that for those of us who are nowhere near close to being "refined" enough to start disappearing, then perhaps there are more appropriate things to focus on. But, I am in no position to judge anything let alone where you guys are in your journies, so, perhaps I should have just stayed out of this discussion....sorry for the intrusion.

Love,
Carson

Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 02 2009 4:20:32 PM
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Kirtanman

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  5:34:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit Kirtanman's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Carson, Christi, Konchok & All,

I seems this thread is coming to a conclusion in harmony and shared agreement; awesome!

And I agree -- Christi & Konchok -- both those posts were excellent, as is Lesson 350.

http://www.aypsite.org/350.html

Another excerpt:

ôDuring this gradual receding of self-identification with objects, the relationship of observer, process of observation, and object of observation remains intact. It does not change. What changes is our sense of self, our I-sense. It moves out slowly from the objects of perception into our emerging unbounded awareness.

As it does, the initial duality between the witness and the objects of perception becomes gradually less dual and more non-dual. This means that the two gradually become One. At the same time, our sense of self expands to become increasingly universal, not tied to any particular object, but found to be underlying all objects of perception. Not self-identified with objects, but underlying them in a way that we no longer see ourselves as being in the world, but instead, the world being in us.

At that time we are justified in replacing the small "s" with a big "S." we have gone from being a small identified self, to being the big universal Self. This is not philosophical. It is experiential.
ö

This is the manifestation of the Rainbow Body.

What shifts and changes is not the physical body, but rather, our sense of self from (conceptually) limited forms appearing in the awareness we actually are .... to realizing we are the living unbound awareness in which it all happens.

None of this is in the future .... future is only a mental concept, noticed in consciousness, now.

The rainbow body .... awareness living unbound .... is always, already here.

Focus on the mental concepts of "limited me", of "I, me & mine" and of "good" (what is conceived to benefit the limited me) and "bad" (what is conceived to be harmful to the limited me) is what obscures conscious awareness of our true self as liberated awareness.

These are the three great illusions, known as Anavamala, Mayiyamala & Karmamala in Sanskrit.

Anavamala - the misconception "I am limited; there is something other than this self."

Mayiyamala - the misconception "I am specific; I am the multiplicity {appearances in awareness}, not the awareness itself, and therefore - this and these are mine." {my "people", my "places", my "things" .... my "beliefs", my "conclusions", and so on}.

Karmamala - the misconception that "I am the limited doer; the actions I do are good or bad; I am not the awareness itself; I am the idea that I am the agent of these actions, occurring in awareness; I am creating karma."

When these misconceptions are no longer created, it is realized:

Whole awareness has never gone anywhere; nothing else would be possible without it.

By dropping attachment and focus on-as obscuring concepts, awareness relaxes back into its original, complete knowing-being.

This is where practices come in.

Obscuring concepts have layers -- seeming me in the seeming world (aka "waking"), surface thinking mind (aka dreaming), long-term conditioning stored in memory (aka deep sleep).

When these obscuring concepts dissolve completely, we realize we were never a limited me, living a limited life in a limited world.

Caitanyamatma
Liberated Awareness is the Self
(Siva Sutra 1.1)

I am the entire field of awareness, inherently free.

My body is the perceptible -- liberated awareness knowing myself as liberated awareness, including all forms appearing within this awareness, now.

The light of self-knowing reflected back from all objects appearing in self-knowing awareness.

Prakasha - Light.

Vimarsha - Reflected Light.

The glorious five-faceted rainbow (consciousness, bliss, will, knowledge and action .... cit, ananda, iccha, jnana and kriya) .... that is liberated awareness, and everything appearing in it as this moment, now.

You can't be unenlightened (anyone).

You can only think unenlightened.

How do we stop "thinking unenlightened"??

Practice.
Practice.
Practice.



Only Heart.
Only Home.
Only Wholeness.
Only AUM.



Open wide.
Love wholly.
Have FUN.
That's All.

And so are you.


_/\_


Heart Is Where The AUM Is,

Kirtanman

Edited by - Kirtanman on Sep 02 2009 7:18:17 PM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  6:47:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I made a new thread about the Lankavatara Sutra. Here's what the Buddha has to say about the Rainbow Body.

quote:
Perceiving that the triple existence is by reason of the habit-energy of erroneous discrimination and false reasoning that has been going on since beginningless time, and also thinking of the state of Buddhahood which is imageless and unborn, [the Bodhisattva] will become thoroughly conversant with the noble truth of self-realisation, will become a perfect master of his own mind, will conduct himself without effort, will be like a gem reflecting a variety of colours, will be able to assume the body of transformation, will be able to enter into the subtle minds of all beings, and, because of his firm belief in the truth of Mind-only, will, by gradually ascending the stages, become established in Buddhahood. Therefore, Mahmati, let the Bodhisattva-Mahsattva be well disciplined in self-realisation.


quote:
Further, Mahmati, the Bodhisattvas who are thoroughly acquainted with the nature of the Citta, Manas, and Manovij˝ana, of the five Dharmas, of the [three] Svabhvas, and of the twofold Egolessness, will assume various personalities for the sake of benefitting others, just like the imagination that evolves from the seat of the relativity knowledge, and again, like the mysterious gem that reflects varieties of colours. Going over to all the Buddha-lands and assemblages, the Bodhisattvas will listen to the Buddhas, discourse on the nature of all things which are like a vision, a dream, an illusion, a reflection, and the lunar vision in water, and which have nothing to do with birth-and-death, eternality, and extinction; the Bodhisattvas, thus facing the Tathagatas, will listen to their discourses on the truth that does not belong to the sravaka- and Pratyekabuddha-vehicle. They will then attain a hundred thousand Samadhis, (73) indeed, a hundred thousand niyutas of kotis of Samdhis, and by means of these Samadhis they will go around from one country to another; they will do homage to the Buddhas, be born in all the celestial mansions, where they will discourse on the Triple Treasure, manifesting Buddha-bodies; and, surrounded by sravakas and Bodhisattvas, they will, in order to free them from the alternatives of being and non-being, instruct them to understand thoroughly what is meant by an objective world which is nothing but Mind itself and in which there are no realities.

At that time the Blessed One recited this verse:

136. When those who are born of the Buddha see that the world is no more than Mind itself, they will obtain a body of transformation, which has nothing to do with effect-producing works, but which is endowed with the powers, psychic faculties, and self-control.


quote:
At that time Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva in consideration of future generations made this request again of the Blessed One: Pray tell me, Blessed One, about the perfecting of the discipline whereby the Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas become great Yogins.

The Blessed One replied: There are four things, Mahamati, by fulfilling which the Bodhisattvas become great Yogins. What are the four? They are: (1) To have a clear understanding as to what is seen of Mind itself,2 (2) to discard the notions of birth, (80) abiding, and disappearance, (3) to look into [the truth] that no external world obtains, and (4) to seek for the attainment of inner realisation by noble wisdom. Provided with these four things the Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas become great Yogins.

How, Mahamati, does the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva come to have a clear understanding as to what is seen of Mind itself? He comes to it by recognising that this triple world is nothing but Mind itself, devoid of an ego and its belongings, with no strivings, no comings-and-goings; that this triple world is manifested and imagined as real, under the influence of the habit-energy accumulated since beginningless time by false reasoning and imagination, and with the multiplicity of objects and actions in close relationship, and in conformity with the ideas of discrimination, such as body, property, and abode. Thus, Mah#257;mati, the Bodhisattva-Mah#257;sattva acquires a thoroughly clear understanding as to what is seen of Mind itself.

How again, Mah#257;mati, does the Bodhisattva-Mah#257;sattva discard notions of birth, abiding, and disappearance? By this it is meant that all things are to be regarded as forms born of a vision or a dream and have never been created since there are no such things as self, the other, or bothness. [The Bodhisattvas] will see that the external world exists only in conformity with Mind-only; and seeing that there is no stirring of the Vij˝anas and that the triple world is a complicated network of causation and owes its rise to discrimination, (81) they find that all things, inner and external, are beyond predicability, that there is nothing to be seen as self-nature, and that [the world] is not to be viewed as born; and thereby they will conform themselves to the insight that things are of the nature of a vision, etc., and attain to the recognition that things are unborn. Establishing themselves on the eighth stage of Bodhisattvahood, they will experience a revulsion [in their consciousness] by transcending the Citta, Manas, and Manovij˝ana, and the five Dharmas, and the [three] Svabhavas, and the twofold Egolessness, and thereby attain the mind-made body (Manomayakaya). Thus, Mahamati, the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva will discard the notion of birth, abiding, and disappearance.


quote:
Said Mahamati,1 what is meant by the will-body, Blessed One? The Blessed One replied: It means that one [in this body] can speedily move unobstructed as he wills; hence the will-body, Mahamati. For instance, Mahamati, the will [or mind] travels unobstructed over mountains, walls, rivers, trees, etc., many a hundred thousand yojanas they may be away, when a man recollects the scenes which had previously come into his perception, while his own mind keeps on functioning in his body without the least interruption or hindrance. In the same fashion, Mahamati, the will-body, in the attainment of the Samadhi called Maya-like and adorned with such marks as the powers, the psychic faculties, and the self-control, will be born in the noble paths and assemblies, moving about as freely as he wishes, as he recalls his original vows and worlds in order to bring all beings to maturity.


Here is what makes this possible:

quote:
Further, Mahamati, when the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva establishes himself in the abode where he has gained a thorough understanding of Mind by means of his transcendental knowledge, he should later discipline himself in the cultivation of noble wisdom in its triple aspect. What are the three aspects of noble wisdom, Mah#257;mati, in which he has to discipline himself later? They are: (1) imagelessness; (2) the power added by all the Buddhas by reason of their original vows; and (3) the self-realisation attained by noble wisdom. Having mastered them, (50) the Yogin should abandon his knowledge of Mind gained by means of transcendental wisdom, which still resembles a lame donkey; and entering upon the eighth stage of Bodhisattvahood, he should further discipline himself in these three aspects of noble wisdom.

Then again, Mahamati, the aspect of imagelessness comes forth when all things belonging to the sravakas and Pratyekabuddhas and philosophers are thoroughly mastered. Again, Mahamati, as to the power added, it comes from the original vows made by all the Buddhas. Again, Mahamati, as to the self-realisation aspect of noble wisdom, it rises when a Bodhisattva, detaching himself from viewing all things in their phenomenality, realises the Samadhi-body whereby he surveys the world as like unto a vision, and further goes on to the attainment of the Buddha-stage. Mahamati, this is the triplicity of the noble life. Furnished with this triplicity, noble ones will attain the state of self-realisation which is the outcome of noble wisdom. For this reason, Mahamati, you should cultivate noble wisdom in its triple aspect.

At that moment, Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva knowing what was going on in the minds of the Bodhisattvas who were gathered there, and empowered by the power added to him by all the Buddhas, asked the Blessed One concerning the doctrine known as examining into the reality of noble wisdom.


Nirvana is not disappearing:

quote:
At that time Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva again said this to the Blessed One: Thou speakest of Nirvana, Blessed One. What is meant by this term Nirvana?

Replied the Blessed One: When the self-nature and the habit-energy of all the Vij˝anas, including the Alaya, Manas, and Manovij˝ana, from which issues the habit-energy of wrong speculationsŚwhen all these go through a revulsion, I and all the Buddhas declare that there is Nirvana, and the way and the self-nature of this Nirvana is emptiness, which is the state of reality.

(99) Further, Mahamati, Nirvana is the realm of self-realisation attained by noble wisdom, which is free from the discrimination of eternality and annihilation, existence and non-existence. How is it not eternality? Because it has cast off the discrimination of individuality and generality, it is not eternality. How about its not being annihilation? It is because all the wise men of the past, present, and future have attained realisation. Therefore, it is not annihilation.

Again, Mahamati, the great Parinirvana is neither destruction nor death. Mahamati, if the great Parinirvana is death, then it will be a birth and continuation. If it is destruction, then it will assume the character of an effect-producing deed. For this reason, Mah#257;mati, the great Parinirvana is neither destruction nor death. Neither has it anything to do with vanishing;l it is the goal of the Yogins. Again, Mahamati the great [b/]Parinirvana is neither abandonment nor attainment[/b], neither is it of one meaning nor of no-meaning; this is said to be Nirvana.

Further, Mahamati, Nirvana conceived by the Sravakas and Pratyekabuddhas consists in recognising individuality and generality, in escaping social intercourse, in not having a perverted view of the world, and not raising discrimination. This is their notion of Nirvana.


More on this:

quote:
At that time again the Blessed One said this to Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva: I will tell you, Mahamati, about the various forms of the will-body; listen well and reflect well within yourself. I will tell you.

Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahattva said; I will, Blessed One, and gave ear to the Blessed One.

The Blessed One then said this: There are three kinds of will-body, Mahamati. What are the three? They are: (1) the will-body obtained in the enjoyment of the Samadhi; (2) the will-body obtained by recognising the self-nature of the Dharma; and (3) the will-body which is assumed [by a Bodhisattva according to] the class of beings [to be saved] and which perfects and achieves [without a thought of its own achievement]. By realising the higher stages successively after the first is attained, the Yogin will experience them [all].

Now, Mahamati, what is the will-body attained in the enjoyment of the Samadhi? It is this: when [the Yogin] in the third, fourth, fifth stages removes the various discriminations going on in his mind and is at rest,1 the waves of consciousness are no more stirred in the Mind-ocean and the Vij˝ana functions are quieted, the bliss of which is enjoyed by him; and when he thus recognises the non-existence of the external world, which is no more than his own mind, he is said to have the will-body.

What is the will-body obtained by recognising the self-nature of the Dharma? When [the Yogin] of the eighth stage has a thoroughgoing penetration into the nature of things which is like Maya; and not image-producing, he experiences a revulsion at the seat of consciousness and obtains the Samadhi known as Maya-like and other Samadhis. By entering upon the Samadhis he gains a body which exhibits various powers of self-mastery and supernatural activity, which moves according to his wish as quickly as a flower opens up, which resembles Maya;, a dream, and a reflected image, and which is not a product of the elements but has something analogous to what is produced of the elements, which is furnished with all the differences appertaining to the world of forms and yet is able to follow up all the assemblages in the Buddha-lands. This is the body which has a thoroughgoing knowledge of the self-nature of the Dharma and for this reason is called will-body.

Now what is the will-body which is born in accordance with the class and which perfects and achieves? When [the Yogin] is thoroughly conversant with all the characteristics of self-realisation and its bliss which pervades the teachings of the Buddha, he is said to have the body which is will-made, born with [the class], perfecting and achieving. Mahamati, you should exert yourself in order to have a thoroughly penetrating knowledge of these three marks of the will-body. So it is said:

1. My Mahayana is neither a vehicle, nor a sound, nor words; it is neither the truth, nor emancipation, nor the realm of imagelessness.

2. Yet the Mahayana is a vehicle on which the Samadhis are carried leading to various creative activities; the several forms of the will-body are adorned with the flowers of the sovereign will.


Final words of the Buddha:

quote:
13. By wrong discrimination the Vij˝ana[-system] rises; severally as eightfold, as ninefold,1 like waves on the great ocean.

14. The root is constantly nourished by habit-energy, firmly attached to the seat; (266) the mind moves along with an objective world as iron is drawn by the loadstone.

15. The original source on which all sentient beings are dependent is beyond theorisation; all doings cease and emancipation obtains, knowing and known are transcended.

16. In the Samadhi known as Maya;-like, one goes beyond the ten stages of Bodhisattvaship; one who is removed from thought and knowledge perceives the Mind-king.

17. When a "turning-back" takes place in the mind, one abides permanently in the palace of lotus-form, which is born of the realm of Maya.

18. Abiding in it one attains a life of imagelessness, and, like a many-coloured jewel, performs religious deeds for all beings.

192. Suchness, emptiness, the limit, Nirvana, and the Dharmadhatu, the various will-made bodies, Śthese I point out as synonymous.

When the Citta, Manas, Vij˝ana cease to rise, (295) then there is the attainment of the will-body and of the Buddha-stage.


Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 03 2009 2:40:33 PM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  6:48:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi

Hi Christi, Konchok and All....

I'm sorry for being unclear in what I have been trying to say.

I know that the emphasis being put on attaining a Rainbow Body is not because you will "disappear" from this realm....but from my understanding that is basically what happens when you attain the Rainbow Body....if I am incorrect please correct me. For me, I just like living in the 3D world so much that I am in no hurry to leave. But basically what I have been trying to get across could be stated as; "One thing at a time". And where we each are on the Path is what indicates what that One thing should be. If you guys have refined your kundalini to the point that it is appropriate to be focussing on acheiving the Rainbow Body, then that is where you are at and I guess this discussion is appropriate for you. I was simply trying to point out that for those of us who are nowhere near close to being "refined" enough to start disappearing, then perhaps there are more appropriate things to focus on. But, I am in no position to judge anything let alone where you guys are in your journies, so, perhaps I should have just stayed out of this discussion....sorry for the intrusion.

Love,
Carson



We're talking more dimensions than three.
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Kirtanman

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  10:09:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit Kirtanman's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

Here's what the Buddha has to say about the Rainbow Body.

quote:
will be able to assume the body of transformation will be able to enter into the subtle minds of all beings, and, because of his firm belief in the truth of Mind-only, will, by gradually ascending the stages, become established in Buddhahood.


quote:
Further, Mahmati, the Bodhisattvas who are thoroughly acquainted with the nature of the Citta, Manas, and Manovij˝ana, // instruct them to understand thoroughly what is meant by an objective world which is nothing but Mind itself and in which there are no realities.


At that time the Blessed One recited this verse:

136. When those who are born of the Buddha see that the world is no more than Mind itself, they will obtain a body of transformation, which has nothing to do with effect-producing works, but which is endowed with the powers, psychic faculties, and self-control.


Awesome; thanks!




I'm not saying the rainbow body isn't a body; I'm just saying it's not a physical body.

Just as the Buddha is saying.

Just as you (Konchok) is saying, it seems.

The forms of awareness appearing within awareness *are* the rainbow body (Vimarsha, or Vimarsa <- English spelling varies) ... the body for the unlimited light of self (Prakasha) .... Shakti, to Shiva ... the manifestation, the form.

Instead of limited mind in limited body .... unlimited mind in unlimited body ... unbound ... living .... all one.

I'm not trying to play games with the words (per my "lines in bold") .... I'm speaking of how the teachings appear to sync up with my experience.

The passages quoted above, per my emphasis, seem to confirm what I'm saying.

However, none of this is about concepts held in limited mind.

What the "rainbow body" *really* is, is:

Two words.

Rainbow.

Body.

I would submit that nothing limited mind has to say about those two words matters much at all.

"Words are but symbols of symbols, and thus, twice removed from reality."
~A Course In Miracles

What is your (anyone) experience?

"Know the truth and the truth will set you free."

None of our concepts and opinions matter; the conclusions of limited mind are, naturally, *limited*.

"When you see a finger pointing at the moon, best to look where the finger is pointing, as opposed to creating countless online posts about the exact nature of the finger."
~Buddhist axiom; updated.



Heart Is Where The AUM Is,

Kirtanman

Edited by - Kirtanman on Sep 02 2009 10:53:02 PM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  10:34:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
What is your (anyone) experience?

"Know the truth and the truth will set you free."

Kirtanman



My experience:

The Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya are nothing to seek or want. The form body, the rupakaya, is automatic and coemerges with realization and entering the womb of the Tathagata. When the Dharmakaya is pointed out, that's all there is in terms of realization. One must simply rest there, make supplications, rejoices, beseeches, offerings to the Buddhas, bodhisattvas, deities, dakinis, earth spirits, and to the Guru Buddha. The practitioner is thus empowered.

The Alayavijnana is like a black widow spider web. When you leave the web, the black widow is alerted and sends obstacles. The protectors come to aid the awakening mind.

quote:
They are: (1) imagelessness; (2) the power added by all the Buddhas by reason of their original vows; and (3) the self-realisation attained by noble wisdom.


Taking refuge with the Buddhas adds power, tremendous power and accelerating, breathtaking swiftness to the progress of samadhi and realization. #2, the power added by all the Buddhas is not some theoretical metaphor.

If one can remember being in the presence of some fantastic professor, or some other very powerful persona, one might get a flavor for what I mean. Being in the presence of not just one Buddha but billions, adds tremendous power to one's yoga.

The only important difference between the Dharma and all other yogas is refuge.

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 03 2009 10:21:01 AM
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Sep 04 2009 :  9:42:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
As far as I understand, Longchenpa talks about the dharmakaya being the present moment, so why make it more complicated than this?

Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 04 2009 11:01:55 PM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 05 2009 :  01:19:05 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

As far as I understand, Longchenpa talks about the dharmakaya being the present moment, so why make it more complicated than this?



The path of seeing is not just the present moment. In the present moment, thoughts and perceptions arise. Through the pointing out instructions one directly perceives their emptiness. One must be skilled in liberating these into the dharmakaya where even the present moment cannot be found.
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Sep 05 2009 :  04:48:21 AM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

As far as I understand, Longchenpa talks about the dharmakaya being the present moment, so why make it more complicated than this?



The path of seeing is not just the present moment. In the present moment, thoughts and perceptions arise. Through the pointing out instructions one directly perceives their emptiness. One must be skilled in liberating these into the dharmakaya where even the present moment cannot be found.



Ah, that is interesting!

The present moment can never be found. When thoughts and perceptions arise it is not the present moment. When you go into it very deeply, as a matter of direct experience, as jnana marga invites, this is what is found.

The jnana view is based on direct experience not sutras or teachings. The starting point is believe nothing, accept nothing, find out for yourself. As a result jnana is always expressed very simply and doesn't need extra concepts like dharmakaya etc, which seem to the jnani to require one to learn all sorts of conceptual stuff invented by other people, which takes one away from what IS.

I am not saying jnana is superior. I am just pointing to a difference in paths which has I think flowed along under the surface of this and a number of other threads, and a question which has been implicitly raised "Are all these special Buddhist concepts necessary, do they include, or do they exclude, from realisation?" For the jnani, they present a difficulty - more concepts when what we seek is to remove all concepts and work from direct experience.

chinna

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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Sep 05 2009 :  09:37:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
"Longchenpa states that that all internal and external phenomenon as they appear in the present moment, prior to reification and conceptualization, can be identified with the dharmakaya."

-Approaching the Great Perfection

Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 05 2009 1:23:31 PM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2009 :  1:06:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

"Longchenpa states that that all internal and external phenomenon as they appear in the present moment, prior to reification and conceptualization, can be identified with the dharmakaya."

-Approaching the Great Perfection



That's not a quote from Longchenpa. I don't agree with this assertion.

The Dharmakaya is emptiness. It is not the present moment. The present moment cannot even be found to exist. The above objectifies emptiness as an identifiable.

If one is meditating on the present moment, then that is grasping the present moment.
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2009 :  1:27:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by chinna

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

As far as I understand, Longchenpa talks about the dharmakaya being the present moment, so why make it more complicated than this?



The path of seeing is not just the present moment. In the present moment, thoughts and perceptions arise. Through the pointing out instructions one directly perceives their emptiness. One must be skilled in liberating these into the dharmakaya where even the present moment cannot be found.



Ah, that is interesting!

The present moment can never be found. When thoughts and perceptions arise it is not the present moment. When you go into it very deeply, as a matter of direct experience, as jnana marga invites, this is what is found.

The jnana view is based on direct experience not sutras or teachings. The starting point is believe nothing, accept nothing, find out for yourself. As a result jnana is always expressed very simply and doesn't need extra concepts like dharmakaya etc, which seem to the jnani to require one to learn all sorts of conceptual stuff invented by other people, which takes one away from what IS.

I am not saying jnana is superior. I am just pointing to a difference in paths which has I think flowed along under the surface of this and a number of other threads, and a question which has been implicitly raised "Are all these special Buddhist concepts necessary, do they include, or do they exclude, from realisation?" For the jnani, they present a difficulty - more concepts when what we seek is to remove all concepts and work from direct experience.

chinna





You may not like the word Dharmakaya, but you are using words like jnana marga. Advaita does not have less terms nor is it simpler. It adheres to a Self which is a big idea with a capital "S."

If you think Buddhist realization is not based on direct experience, then you are wrong. The Sutras do not teach methods. The method of realization comes from the lineage of pith instructions. Even the Theravada practitioners learn this way.

In the Sutras, the Buddha describes the metaphysical truth, which is Emptiness, the absence of any metaphysical truth. It is beyond being and non-being, beyond what IS or what IS NOT. Emptiness is a special feature of the Buddha Dharma. Though emptiness is not described explicitly in the Tripitaka, dependent origination is, and is synomymous with Emptiness. Dependent origination is also a special feature of the Buddha Dharma.

If one were to delve deeply into the qualities of realization of the Advaita vs the Buddhist realizers, one would have a difficulty finding an appreciable difference. But then, that is just realization. In Buddhist practice, realization is just step one. What is beyond realization belongs to the qualities and activities of the bodhisattvas and buddhas.

The fundamental distinction between the paths is refuge in the Three Jewels. The Buddha, Dharma and Sangha makes the two paths very different. Realization is just realization; there's not a lot special about it. This is where the two paths diverge. The full realization of emptiness can only happen with the help of the Three Jewels. One must rely on them with faith; then, the blessings of the lineage arrive as extra juice, power for complete cleansing, traversing the paths and bhumis, and transformation into full buddhahood.

I'm not saying Buddhism is superior. All I'm saying is that if we are going to be truly holistic, circumspect and open-minded, then Buddhism must be understood, right Chinna?

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 06 2009 1:55:22 PM
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2009 :  2:38:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

"Longchenpa states that that all internal and external phenomenon as they appear in the present moment, prior to reification and conceptualization, can be identified with the dharmakaya."

-Approaching the Great Perfection



That's not a quote from Longchenpa. I don't agree with this assertion.

The Dharmakaya is emptiness. It is not the present moment. The present moment cannot even be found to exist. The above objectifies emptiness as an identifiable.

If one is meditating on the present moment, then that is grasping the present moment.



Maybe you should read "Approaching the Great Perfection" and write a critique on the book. The author strikes me as extraordinarily knowledgeable.

You could probably borrow it for free with an interlibrary loan

P.S. I agree taking Mahayana refuge, which you can do on your own by visualizing the Buddha in front of you, would supercharge everyone's practice

Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 06 2009 3:27:04 PM
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