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Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Kagyu view is that RB is not important. Some Kagyu masters' entire bodies just disappear, like Marpa.

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Originally posted by cosmic

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Originally posted by CarsonZi

Perfect! Then we can finally put this thread to rest?

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Never!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3khTntOxX-k



Not to throw more wood on the fire, but I thought all the talk of disappearing/leaving/dissolving/etc. was just poetic metaphor dissolving the ego/merging with the divine/etc. Is this not the case?

Forgive the ignorance on this matter.

With Love
cosmic

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Originally posted by alwayson2

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Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Kagyu view is that RB is not important. Some Kagyu masters' entire bodies just disappear, like Marpa.

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Why don't you consider this rainbow body??!!

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Originally posted by alwayson2


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Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Kagyu view is that RB is not important. Some Kagyu masters' entire bodies just disappear, like Marpa.

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Why don't you consider this rainbow body??!!

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Dharmakaya

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Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

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Originally posted by alwayson2

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Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Kagyu view is that RB is not important. Some Kagyu masters' entire bodies just disappear, like Marpa.

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Why don't you consider this rainbow body??!!

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Dharmakaya

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Originally posted by Christi

Hi Osel,

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Originally posted by alwayson2


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Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Kagyu view is that RB is not important. Some Kagyu masters' entire bodies just disappear, like Marpa.

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Why don't you consider this rainbow body??!!

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Dharmakaya

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I believe the Dharmakaya is one of the three aspects of the body of light (rainbow body).

Christi

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Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

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Originally posted by CarsonZi

Perfect! Then we can finally put this thread to rest?

Love,
Carson

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Is that why you entered it? I think you had something to add.

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But we are not to be completely transformed to this condition of freedom and divine radiance in a single day, or even a single year. It is a process, a journey, first to the witness stage, and then moving steadily beyond the witness stage into Oneness. Along the way the temporal world as we have known it dissolves in the blazing light of Being, even while we have gone nowhere,

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The long lost beloved returning home after missing for many years.

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Perceiving that the triple existence is by reason of the habit-energy of erroneous discrimination and false reasoning that has been going on since beginningless time, and also thinking of the state of Buddhahood which is imageless and unborn, [the Bodhisattva] will become thoroughly conversant with the noble truth of self-realisation, will become a perfect master of his own mind, will conduct himself without effort, will be like a gem reflecting a variety of colours, will be able to assume the body of transformation, will be able to enter into the subtle minds of all beings, and, because of his firm belief in the truth of Mind-only, will, by gradually ascending the stages, become established in Buddhahood. Therefore, Mahmati, let the Bodhisattva-Mahsattva be well disciplined in self-realisation.

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Further, Mahmati, the Bodhisattvas who are thoroughly acquainted with the nature of the Citta, Manas, and Manovijñana, of the five Dharmas, of the [three] Svabhvas, and of the twofold Egolessness, will assume various personalities for the sake of benefitting others, just like the imagination that evolves from the seat of the relativity knowledge, and again, like the mysterious gem that reflects varieties of colours. Going over to all the Buddha-lands and assemblages, the Bodhisattvas will listen to the Buddhas, discourse on the nature of all things which are like a vision, a dream, an illusion, a reflection, and the lunar vision in water, and which have nothing to do with birth-and-death, eternality, and extinction; the Bodhisattvas, thus facing the Tathagatas, will listen to their discourses on the truth that does not belong to the sravaka- and Pratyekabuddha-vehicle. They will then attain a hundred thousand Samadhis, (73) indeed, a hundred thousand niyutas of kotis of Samdhis, and by means of these Samadhis they will go around from one country to another; they will do homage to the Buddhas, be born in all the celestial mansions, where they will discourse on the Triple Treasure, manifesting Buddha-bodies; and, surrounded by sravakas and Bodhisattvas, they will, in order to free them from the alternatives of being and non-being, instruct them to understand thoroughly what is meant by an objective world which is nothing but Mind itself and in which there are no realities.

At that time the Blessed One recited this verse:

136. When those who are born of the Buddha see that the world is no more than Mind itself, they will obtain a body of transformation, which has nothing to do with effect-producing works, but which is endowed with the powers, psychic faculties, and self-control.

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At that time Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva in consideration of future generations made this request again of the Blessed One: Pray tell me, Blessed One, about the perfecting of the discipline whereby the Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas become great Yogins.

The Blessed One replied: There are four things, Mahamati, by fulfilling which the Bodhisattvas become great Yogins. What are the four? They are: (1) To have a clear understanding as to what is seen of Mind itself,2 (2) to discard the notions of birth, (80) abiding, and disappearance, (3) to look into [the truth] that no external world obtains, and (4) to seek for the attainment of inner realisation by noble wisdom. Provided with these four things the Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas become great Yogins.

How, Mahamati, does the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva come to have a clear understanding as to what is seen of Mind itself? He comes to it by recognising that this triple world is nothing but Mind itself, devoid of an ego and its belongings, with no strivings, no comings-and-goings; that this triple world is manifested and imagined as real, under the influence of the habit-energy accumulated since beginningless time by false reasoning and imagination, and with the multiplicity of objects and actions in close relationship, and in conformity with the ideas of discrimination, such as body, property, and abode. Thus, Mah#257;mati, the Bodhisattva-Mah#257;sattva acquires a thoroughly clear understanding as to what is seen of Mind itself.

How again, Mah#257;mati, does the Bodhisattva-Mah#257;sattva discard notions of birth, abiding, and disappearance? By this it is meant that all things are to be regarded as forms born of a vision or a dream and have never been created since there are no such things as self, the other, or bothness. [The Bodhisattvas] will see that the external world exists only in conformity with Mind-only; and seeing that there is no stirring of the Vijñanas and that the triple world is a complicated network of causation and owes its rise to discrimination, (81) they find that all things, inner and external, are beyond predicability, that there is nothing to be seen as self-nature, and that [the world] is not to be viewed as born; and thereby they will conform themselves to the insight that things are of the nature of a vision, etc., and attain to the recognition that things are unborn. Establishing themselves on the eighth stage of Bodhisattvahood, they will experience a revulsion [in their consciousness] by transcending the Citta, Manas, and Manovijñana, and the five Dharmas, and the [three] Svabhavas, and the twofold Egolessness, and thereby attain the mind-made body (Manomayakaya). Thus, Mahamati, the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva will discard the notion of birth, abiding, and disappearance.

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Said Mahamati,1 what is meant by the will-body, Blessed One? The Blessed One replied: It means that one [in this body] can speedily move unobstructed as he wills; hence the will-body, Mahamati. For instance, Mahamati, the will [or mind] travels unobstructed over mountains, walls, rivers, trees, etc., many a hundred thousand yojanas they may be away, when a man recollects the scenes which had previously come into his perception, while his own mind keeps on functioning in his body without the least interruption or hindrance. In the same fashion, Mahamati, the will-body, in the attainment of the Samadhi called Maya-like and adorned with such marks as the powers, the psychic faculties, and the self-control, will be born in the noble paths and assemblies, moving about as freely as he wishes, as he recalls his original vows and worlds in order to bring all beings to maturity.

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Further, Mahamati, when the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva establishes himself in the abode where he has gained a thorough understanding of Mind by means of his transcendental knowledge, he should later discipline himself in the cultivation of noble wisdom in its triple aspect. What are the three aspects of noble wisdom, Mah#257;mati, in which he has to discipline himself later? They are: (1) imagelessness; (2) the power added by all the Buddhas by reason of their original vows; and (3) the self-realisation attained by noble wisdom. Having mastered them, (50) the Yogin should abandon his knowledge of Mind gained by means of transcendental wisdom, which still resembles a lame donkey; and entering upon the eighth stage of Bodhisattvahood, he should further discipline himself in these three aspects of noble wisdom.

Then again, Mahamati, the aspect of imagelessness comes forth when all things belonging to the sravakas and Pratyekabuddhas and philosophers are thoroughly mastered. Again, Mahamati, as to the power added, it comes from the original vows made by all the Buddhas. Again, Mahamati, as to the self-realisation aspect of noble wisdom, it rises when a Bodhisattva, detaching himself from viewing all things in their phenomenality, realises the Samadhi-body whereby he surveys the world as like unto a vision, and further goes on to the attainment of the Buddha-stage. Mahamati, this is the triplicity of the noble life. Furnished with this triplicity, noble ones will attain the state of self-realisation which is the outcome of noble wisdom. For this reason, Mahamati, you should cultivate noble wisdom in its triple aspect.

At that moment, Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva knowing what was going on in the minds of the Bodhisattvas who were gathered there, and empowered by the power added to him by all the Buddhas, asked the Blessed One concerning the doctrine known as examining into the reality of noble wisdom.

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At that time Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva again said this to the Blessed One: Thou speakest of Nirvana, Blessed One. What is meant by this term Nirvana?

Replied the Blessed One: When the self-nature and the habit-energy of all the Vijñanas, including the Alaya, Manas, and Manovijñana, from which issues the habit-energy of wrong speculations—when all these go through a revulsion, I and all the Buddhas declare that there is Nirvana, and the way and the self-nature of this Nirvana is emptiness, which is the state of reality.

(99) Further, Mahamati, Nirvana is the realm of self-realisation attained by noble wisdom, which is free from the discrimination of eternality and annihilation, existence and non-existence. How is it not eternality? Because it has cast off the discrimination of individuality and generality, it is not eternality. How about its not being annihilation? It is because all the wise men of the past, present, and future have attained realisation. Therefore, it is not annihilation.

Again, Mahamati, the great Parinirvana is neither destruction nor death. Mahamati, if the great Parinirvana is death, then it will be a birth and continuation. If it is destruction, then it will assume the character of an effect-producing deed. For this reason, Mah#257;mati, the great Parinirvana is neither destruction nor death. Neither has it anything to do with vanishing;l it is the goal of the Yogins. Again, Mahamati the great [b/]Parinirvana is neither abandonment nor attainment[/b], neither is it of one meaning nor of no-meaning; this is said to be Nirvana.

Further, Mahamati, Nirvana conceived by the Sravakas and Pratyekabuddhas consists in recognising individuality and generality, in escaping social intercourse, in not having a perverted view of the world, and not raising discrimination. This is their notion of Nirvana.

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At that time again the Blessed One said this to Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva: I will tell you, Mahamati, about the various forms of the will-body; listen well and reflect well within yourself. I will tell you.

Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahattva said; I will, Blessed One, and gave ear to the Blessed One.

The Blessed One then said this: There are three kinds of will-body, Mahamati. What are the three? They are: (1) the will-body obtained in the enjoyment of the Samadhi; (2) the will-body obtained by recognising the self-nature of the Dharma; and (3) the will-body which is assumed [by a Bodhisattva according to] the class of beings [to be saved] and which perfects and achieves [without a thought of its own achievement]. By realising the higher stages successively after the first is attained, the Yogin will experience them [all].

Now, Mahamati, what is the will-body attained in the enjoyment of the Samadhi? It is this: when [the Yogin] in the third, fourth, fifth stages removes the various discriminations going on in his mind and is at rest,1 the waves of consciousness are no more stirred in the Mind-ocean and the Vijñana functions are quieted, the bliss of which is enjoyed by him; and when he thus recognises the non-existence of the external world, which is no more than his own mind, he is said to have the will-body.

What is the will-body obtained by recognising the self-nature of the Dharma? When [the Yogin] of the eighth stage has a thoroughgoing penetration into the nature of things which is like Maya; and not image-producing, he experiences a revulsion at the seat of consciousness and obtains the Samadhi known as Maya-like and other Samadhis. By entering upon the Samadhis he gains a body which exhibits various powers of self-mastery and supernatural activity, which moves according to his wish as quickly as a flower opens up, which resembles Maya;, a dream, and a reflected image, and which is not a product of the elements but has something analogous to what is produced of the elements, which is furnished with all the differences appertaining to the world of forms and yet is able to follow up all the assemblages in the Buddha-lands. This is the body which has a thoroughgoing knowledge of the self-nature of the Dharma and for this reason is called will-body.

Now what is the will-body which is born in accordance with the class and which perfects and achieves? When [the Yogin] is thoroughly conversant with all the characteristics of self-realisation and its bliss which pervades the teachings of the Buddha, he is said to have the body which is will-made, born with [the class], perfecting and achieving. Mahamati, you should exert yourself in order to have a thoroughly penetrating knowledge of these three marks of the will-body. So it is said:

1. My Mahayana is neither a vehicle, nor a sound, nor words; it is neither the truth, nor emancipation, nor the realm of imagelessness.

2. Yet the Mahayana is a vehicle on which the Samadhis are carried leading to various creative activities; the several forms of the will-body are adorned with the flowers of the sovereign will.

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13. By wrong discrimination the Vijñana[-system] rises; severally as eightfold, as ninefold,1 like waves on the great ocean.

14. The root is constantly nourished by habit-energy, firmly attached to the seat; (266) the mind moves along with an objective world as iron is drawn by the loadstone.

15. The original source on which all sentient beings are dependent is beyond theorisation; all doings cease and emancipation obtains, knowing and known are transcended.

16. In the Samadhi known as Maya;-like, one goes beyond the ten stages of Bodhisattvaship; one who is removed from thought and knowledge perceives the Mind-king.

17. When a "turning-back" takes place in the mind, one abides permanently in the palace of lotus-form, which is born of the realm of Maya.

18. Abiding in it one attains a life of imagelessness, and, like a many-coloured jewel, performs religious deeds for all beings.

192. Suchness, emptiness, the limit, Nirvana, and the Dharmadhatu, the various will-made bodies, —these I point out as synonymous.

When the Citta, Manas, Vijñana cease to rise, (295) then there is the attainment of the will-body and of the Buddha-stage.

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Originally posted by CarsonZi

Hi Christi, Konchok and All....

I'm sorry for being unclear in what I have been trying to say.

I know that the emphasis being put on attaining a Rainbow Body is not because you will "disappear" from this realm....but from my understanding that is basically what happens when you attain the Rainbow Body....if I am incorrect please correct me. For me, I just like living in the 3D world so much that I am in no hurry to leave. But basically what I have been trying to get across could be stated as; "One thing at a time". And where we each are on the Path is what indicates what that One thing should be. If you guys have refined your kundalini to the point that it is appropriate to be focussing on acheiving the Rainbow Body, then that is where you are at and I guess this discussion is appropriate for you. I was simply trying to point out that for those of us who are nowhere near close to being "refined" enough to start disappearing, then perhaps there are more appropriate things to focus on. But, I am in no position to judge anything let alone where you guys are in your journies, so, perhaps I should have just stayed out of this discussion....sorry for the intrusion.

Love,
Carson

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Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

Here's what the Buddha has to say about the Rainbow Body.

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will be able to assume the body of transformation will be able to enter into the subtle minds of all beings, and, because of his firm belief in the truth of Mind-only, will, by gradually ascending the stages, become established in Buddhahood.

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Further, Mahmati, the Bodhisattvas who are thoroughly acquainted with the nature of the Citta, Manas, and Manovijñana, // instruct them to understand thoroughly what is meant by an objective world which is nothing but Mind itself and in which there are no realities.

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At that time the Blessed One recited this verse:

136. When those who are born of the Buddha see that the world is no more than Mind itself, they will obtain a body of transformation, which has nothing to do with effect-producing works, but which is endowed with the powers, psychic faculties, and self-control.

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Originally posted by Kirtanman
What is your (anyone) experience?

"Know the truth and the truth will set you free."

Kirtanman

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They are: (1) imagelessness; (2) the power added by all the Buddhas by reason of their original vows; and (3) the self-realisation attained by noble wisdom.

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Originally posted by alwayson2

As far as I understand, Longchenpa talks about the dharmakaya being the present moment, so why make it more complicated than this?

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Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

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Originally posted by alwayson2

As far as I understand, Longchenpa talks about the dharmakaya being the present moment, so why make it more complicated than this?

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The path of seeing is not just the present moment. In the present moment, thoughts and perceptions arise. Through the pointing out instructions one directly perceives their emptiness. One must be skilled in liberating these into the dharmakaya where even the present moment cannot be found.

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Originally posted by alwayson2

"Longchenpa states that that all internal and external phenomenon as they appear in the present moment, prior to reification and conceptualization, can be identified with the dharmakaya."

-Approaching the Great Perfection

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Originally posted by chinna

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Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

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Originally posted by alwayson2

As far as I understand, Longchenpa talks about the dharmakaya being the present moment, so why make it more complicated than this?

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The path of seeing is not just the present moment. In the present moment, thoughts and perceptions arise. Through the pointing out instructions one directly perceives their emptiness. One must be skilled in liberating these into the dharmakaya where even the present moment cannot be found.

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Ah, that is interesting!

The present moment can never be found. When thoughts and perceptions arise it is not the present moment. When you go into it very deeply, as a matter of direct experience, as jnana marga invites, this is what is found.

The jnana view is based on direct experience not sutras or teachings. The starting point is believe nothing, accept nothing, find out for yourself. As a result jnana is always expressed very simply and doesn't need extra concepts like dharmakaya etc, which seem to the jnani to require one to learn all sorts of conceptual stuff invented by other people, which takes one away from what IS.

I am not saying jnana is superior. I am just pointing to a difference in paths which has I think flowed along under the surface of this and a number of other threads, and a question which has been implicitly raised "Are all these special Buddhist concepts necessary, do they include, or do they exclude, from realisation?" For the jnani, they present a difficulty - more concepts when what we seek is to remove all concepts and work from direct experience.

chinna

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Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

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Originally posted by alwayson2

"Longchenpa states that that all internal and external phenomenon as they appear in the present moment, prior to reification and conceptualization, can be identified with the dharmakaya."

-Approaching the Great Perfection

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That's not a quote from Longchenpa. I don't agree with this assertion.

The Dharmakaya is emptiness. It is not the present moment. The present moment cannot even be found to exist. The above objectifies emptiness as an identifiable.

If one is meditating on the present moment, then that is grasping the present moment.

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