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Kirtanman

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - Aug 29 2009 :  11:26:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit Kirtanman's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi, Ananda & All,

This dialog, concerning the teachings of Sri Aurobindo and Ramana Maharshi, highlights what I feel is the very heart of the theme of this thread:

All wisdom traditions know of realization, and for the most part, articulate it equally well.


In reviewing the dialog, it actually seems that they (Ramana Maharshi, Sri Aurobindo) are saying essentially the same thing (in my opinion).

By way of background and context, here's the link, again, to the page with the entire related dialog:

Dialog with Ramana Maharshi about the teachings of Sri Aurobindo, Jnana/Realization, and the Body.

I would also state, unequivocally, that what they (Ramana Maharshi, Sri Aurobindo) are both referring to, is also the condition discussed throughout this thread, known as the Rainbow Body.

Here's why I feel this is the case:

Ramana Maharshi says: "There is no bondage, no one doing spiritual practices, no one seeking spiritual liberation, and no one who is liberated. One who is established in the Self sees this by his knowledge of reality."

For many yogic practitioners, this statement can seem to be referencing someone other than themselves .... but it's not; it's only referencing someone different than who they think they are.

Being "established in the Self", and seeing by the "knowledge of reality" simply means that one's identity has shifted from the thought-self to unmodified awareness.

The dialog then proceeds:

Q. ... Therefore the vijnanamaya sarira [the body made of pure knowledge] in which Self-knowledge can work naturally must be brought down on this earth.

M: Self-knowledge can shine very well in the human body, so there is no need of any other body.
**

I don't think that Sri Ramana is disagreeing with the questioner as much as he is nipping the *idea* of having to "bring another body down" in the bud - which is certainly a valuable service .... one could be on the very brink of Jnana, and be preventing the experience of Jnana by conceiving of the "body made of pure knowledge" in a certain way (as having to be "brought down").

On the *other* hand, though --- Sri Aurobindo may be highlighting the (so-called) "body of pure knowledge", as something *different* from the thought-body, aka "me" (which is who we *think* we are, prior to certain experiences of awareness) ... for the same reason that Sri Ramana is directing attention away from it:

To attempt to assist the liberation of awareness from mis-identification with thinking.

Both "bringing the body of knowledge down", and "established in the Self", and "knowledge shining in the human body", are all just different ways of saying the same thing (I'd say).



Independent of concepts, both the "body of pure knowledge", and "self-knowledge" and "being established in the Self" (as well as the "rainbow body", or gnosis, or enlightenment, or jivanmukti, or christ-consciousness, or god-realization, or what have you .... ) .... are all saying one thing, and one thing only:

The true nature of the self is awareness; the dream is thinking that the self is some combination of the ever-oscillating forms appearing in the awareness of the self.

That's why terms such as "supremental", "supernal" and "nirvikalpa" are actually so important:

They point to the reality that reality is found *beyond* thought -- not within it, and not as it.

When the agitation of mind-modifications ceases, the (mentally manufactured) universe dissolves ... and the elements unite ... and the rainbow body (aka jnana, enlightenment, gnosis, christ-consciousness, buddha-nature, the Tao, Ain Soph, etc. etc. etc.) appears as the true glory of original, real nature.


"Saktichakrasamdhane Vishvasamharah"

"When the universe dissolves, the wheel of energies unites."
~Siva Sutra 1.6

The "wheel of energies" is nothing more than the ever-present Oneness of this glorious liberation, self-luminous, immovable, taintless and utterly free, living unbound, here and now, beyond the apparent cloud-cover of concepts and conditioning.

Can this be true?

Can you really know?

Find out.

You find out when thought dissolves.

How does thought dissolve?

Meditation practice and inquiry.

By conceiving of enlightenment as special and unattainable, we push it away ... in conceptual mind ... which only exists within the enlightenment of the real, ever-living, ever-free awareness -- who and what we each and all now ...

REALLY.

Come on Home.

You're here anyway.

And it beats the crap out of continued suffering.



Intending The Utter Speechless Joy of Knowing Your Self as the Living Liberated Light of Reality Now, for ALL,


_/\_


Kirtanman



Just as the I-am-the-body consciousness prevents one from attaining Self-knowledge -- in the same way, one who has got the conviction that he is not the body will become liberated even if he doesn't desire it.

~ Ramana Maharshi

Edited by - Kirtanman on Aug 29 2009 11:35:44 PM
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Aug 30 2009 :  06:25:39 AM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for this graceful post Kirtanman. The David Godman dialogue you reference is illuminating.

I feel that Ramana and Aurobindo are saying different things, and that Aurobindo never let go of his political-transformational roots, wanting to be too personally significant for humanity, a bit of a messiah complex.

I am reminded of the modern teachers of 'evolutionary consciousness' like Andrew Cohen and Ken Wilber. They always seems to me to be clinging on to some idea of a future. They present themselves (and flatteringly, their devotees and supporters....) as involved in some kind of massive personal effort to 'transform human consciousness' which will change human society, just as did Aurobindo, locked away in his room. But as Dogen makes clear, all is enlightened from the very first step. And as Ramana makes clear, all is perfect, inevitable, just as it is, and can be known as such the moment we no longer identify as a limited I.

Utopias, visions of transformatory futures, are best steered clear of, as the 20th century horribly demonstrated.

I agree with your linking this to Rainbow bodies, which could be a snare for the unwary, a way of delaying realisation. We only need to get rid of one I-am-the-body-idea. What 'happens' 'after' that is best left to its own devices, is beyond ideation, or we are still on the treadmill.

Thanks again for the cool balm of the sublime Ramana, such clarity, simplicity, absence of self.

chinna

Edited by - chinna on Aug 30 2009 12:27:06 PM
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Ananda

3113 Posts

Posted - Aug 30 2009 :  08:37:46 AM  Show Profile  Visit Ananda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Ananda,

quote:
sri ramana maharshi's view on stuff like the rainbow body.

http://www.realization.org/page/doc0/doc0098.htm

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Sri Aurobindo believes that the human body is not the last on this earth. Establishment in the Self, according to him, is not perfectly attained in a human body, for Self-knowledge does not operate there in its natural way. Therefore the vijnanamaya sarira [the body made of pure knowledge]1 in which Self-knowledge can work naturally must be brought down on this earth.

M: Self-knowledge can shine very well in the human body, so there is no need of any other body.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



this is just a little glimpse, read the topic it's good and as always with beloved and beautiful Ramana it's simple.

love you guys


I believe in this case, the questioner is misrepresenting the views of Sri Aurobindo. If I have understood rightly, Aurobindo did not teach that a body of pure knowledge or light (vijnyanamaya sarira) had to be brought down to be used in place of the normal human body. He talked about the divine light (which he called the supramental light or the paramatma light) coming down into the human body and transforming it. It is a natural part of the yoga, just as the awakening of the kundalini shakti is a natural part of the process of human spiritual transformation.

Aurobindo talked about the supramentalization of the material plane, and the transformation of the light of that plane into the light of the supramental. This same idea is found in the teachings of the Gnostic Christians who talk about the transformation of the light of the earthly realm into the light of heaven.

So I think the two men (Ramana Maharshi and Sri Aurobindo) are talking about two different things. Ramana Maharshi is talking about the process of dissolution of the being into pure bliss consciousness (the clear light of bliss) whereas Aurobindo is talking about the specific stages involved in the energetic transformation of the human vehicle as the spiritual process unfolds.

Christi





thank you for clearing this up Christy

but concerning the rainbow body, thankfully now we have Sri Ramana's point of view along the lines.

namaste
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Ananda

3113 Posts

Posted - Aug 30 2009 :  08:42:39 AM  Show Profile  Visit Ananda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

quote:
Originally posted by Ananda

sri ramana maharshi's view on stuff like the rainbow body.

http://www.realization.org/page/doc0/doc0098.htm
quote:
Q: Sri Aurobindo believes that the human body is not the last on this earth. Establishment in the Self, according to him, is not perfectly attained in a human body, for Self-knowledge does not operate there in its natural way. Therefore the vijnanamaya sarira [the body made of pure knowledge]1 in which Self-knowledge can work naturally must be brought down on this earth.

M: Self-knowledge can shine very well in the human body, so there is no need of any other body.


this is just a little glimpse, read the topic it's good and as always with beloved and beautiful Ramana it's simple.

love you guys



The Rainbow Body is achieved in the human body. It's not like you achieve the RB and then you go get realized in that. The RB is the evidence of that realization. That's the Nyingma view.

Kagyu view is that RB is not important. Some Kagyu masters' entire bodies just disappear, like Marpa.



it's good to know this, bcz honestly i was thinking that it was a whole other thing.

i am pro the Kagyu view on this matter, and if i remember right in the end of "the secrets of Wilder story" John disappears entirely and i've heard some of the same stuff happening among some of the suffi masters.

namaste
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Aug 30 2009 :  11:53:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Kirtanman,

quote:

Independent of concepts, both the "body of pure knowledge", and "self-knowledge" and "being established in the Self" (as well as the "rainbow body", or gnosis, or enlightenment, or jivanmukti, or christ-consciousness, or god-realization, or what have you .... ) .... are all saying one thing, and one thing only:

The true nature of the self is awareness; the dream is thinking that the self is some combination of the ever-oscillating forms appearing in the awareness of the self.

That's why terms such as "supremental", "supernal" and "nirvikalpa" are actually so important:

They point to the reality that reality is found *beyond* thought -- not within it, and not as it.



It could be the case that the description of the attainment of a body of light (the rainbow body) is simply a metaphor for the realization of the Self as undifferentiated awareness, but I think it unlikely. I would say this because of things that I have seen in prophetic vision (beings made of divine light... two arms, two legs etc.), descriptions of the body of light in Buddhist texts, and things that I have experienced in meditation.

In the texts, the body of light is described as having various attributes. Here is a description of the attributes of the Rainbow body from the Secret Sublime sutra:

"They had therefore achieved the Wisdom Concentration, and acquired Mind-Created Bodies, which are adorned with mighty supernatural powers. Such bodies are free of any interspaces, bones, or substances, they are like the sun and the moon, like rainbows, electricity, finest gold, luminous pearls... Pavonine Flowers and Moons, and the images from mirrors."

These attributes all fit the self-luminous radiant bodies of light that I have seen (and felt) in vision.

In my own meditation, I have experienced what I believe are the beginnings of the process of this transformation. There is a point where the kundalini process and the process of the creation of amrita (nectar) in the body, come together at the crown. The amrita, rising up from the lower centres, begins to seep out of the top of the head, rolling back down the skull and body, re-entering the body at the brow, throat and heart chakras. At the same time, the kundalini shakti flows up the central channel, going through the crown chakra, rising several feet into the air directly above the head. It then comes back down through the crown again into the sacred heart. Beads of white light then begin to float slowly up through the nadis, going out of the raised crown chakra, rising up into the air in all directions and then falling down around the body, re-entering the body again through the chakras. The process is unbelievably beautiful to behold. The higher chakras all become active, and spontaneous merging begins to happen. Both the beads of amrita nectar, and the drops of white light that float through the nadis have an incredibly purifying effect on the subtle nervous system. It is a little like being a caterpillar inside a chrysalis made of numinous white light, with golden liquid ecstasy being dripped on you. It is beyond anything that is conceivable in this world.

I believe this is the beginning of the process of the transformation of the body into a body of divine light. I also believe that it is a process which many have gone through, and which will happen to everyone on the spiritual path, regardless of whether they are looking for it or not. In the Mahayana schools of Buddhism, much emphasis is put on what happens at the time of death, to a human who has attained the body of light. There are many descriptions of masters whose physical bodies simply disappeared in a matter of a few days, as they made the transition into their divine body. In the bible, the same story is told about Jesus, and in the Christian Gnostic texts there are accounts of teachings that Jesus gave to his disciples after the crucifixion and after the dissolution of his physical body. There are also descriptions of his body of divine light (body of glory) rising up into the air before his disciples (the ascension).

Could all of this stuff become a distraction on the path? Of course it could, just as many things can. Ultimately, it is pretty fancy scenery, and should not distract us from the job at hand... the dissolution of the being into pure bliss consciousness.

Christi

Edited by - Christi on Aug 30 2009 12:32:21 PM
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Ananda

3113 Posts

Posted - Aug 30 2009 :  12:47:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit Ananda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
hi K man, probably this is why sages like Papaji and Sri Atmananda Menon call it the subtratum... in the end all the decoration exists to point at that.

that's a beautiful contribution Christy; thank you.

namaste
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Kirtanman

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - Aug 30 2009 :  9:38:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit Kirtanman's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply

Hi Chinna & All,

After doing a bit of reading, I'm revising one aspect of my stated opinion --- the aspect which said that Ramana Maharshi and Sri Aurobindo were saying the same thing.

Basically, not knowing a lot about Sri Aurobindo's teachings, I was basically giving him the "benefit of the doubt" -- and saying that he *could* have been referring to the "bringing the knowledge-body" down from a standpoint of non-duality .... however, with all sincere respect to Sri Aurobindo, I'm not so sure he was all that much about teaching the reality of non-duality.

And .... it's not like I've learned all that much in the last day or so ... more just a "general feel", that, as Chinna writes below, Sri Aurobindo was more about process-evolution, than about living from-as Advaita, as Ramana Maharshi taught and exemplified.

Regardless, though: my main "hypothesis" remains .....

That non-dual awareness as articulated by Ramana Maharshi, and the rainbow body, along with all terms I feel are clearly equivalent, when viewed from non-dual awareness -- are the same -- and the "attaining" of them, is simply the shift from identification with the "thought called me", to knowing true identity as awareness itself.

(Read descriptions of the rainbow body -- and ask yourself: could they simply be referring to unconditioned, non-dual awareness, here?)



quote:
Originally posted by chinna


I am reminded of the modern teachers of 'evolutionary consciousness' like Andrew Cohen and Ken Wilber. They always seems to me to be clinging on to some idea of a future.



Well .... the future *is* only an idea, yes??

I know what you mean, though.

Candidly, I've never even remotely "gotten" Andrew Cohen.

Ken Wilber used to seem a lot more amazing when I was viewing his stuff from mind and partiality.

He seems to be doing some good stuff (again: Kirtanmaniacal "Benefit Of Doubt" in operation, here ..... "your mileage may vary" ... ) .... as far as putting together some teachers and teachings from diverse traditions ---- but his "evolutionary" stuff, along with the seeming linearity and complexity of his AQAL model, is a bit too ... I don't quite have a word ..... quantified .. maybe ... for me.

quote:

They present themselves (and flatteringly, their devotees and supporters....) as involved in some kind of massive personal effort to 'transform human consciousness' which will change human society, just as did Aurobindo, locked away in his room. But as Dogen makes clear, all is enlightened from the very first step. And as Ramana makes clear, all is perfect, inevitable, just as it is, and can be known as such the moment we no longer identify as a limited I.



Yes ... as seems to be the case with you, Chinna, I very much fall on the (non-dual ) "side", with Dogen and Ramana, here (solely based in experiencing).

quote:

I agree with your linking this to Rainbow bodies, which could be a snare for the unwary, a way of delaying realisation. We only need to get rid of one I-am-the-body-idea. What 'happens' 'after' that is best left to its own devices, is beyond ideation, or we are still on the treadmill.



Agreed, in general.

Although the caveat would be: the "I am the body" idea will likely not vanish all at once .. or, if it does ... it may well return intermittently, for some time ... and so, it's helpful to know that *no* idea can be true; if it's any kind of thought or concept, it's partial at best ... and, if not recognized as such, can be deluding.

Conversely .... the sense that "I have a body" or "I'm emanating via a body, apparently", or however this might best be expressed ..... is part of human experiencing .... and so, if someone is conceiving of "non-dual Brahman" as free from distinction in day-to-day experiencing .... one will be experiencing duality until the sacred cows come home.

True self .... experiencing awareness ..... is unconditioned, non-dual.

Diversity of experiencing, including the sense of "being" a given person, appears within the single field of awareness that is true nature -- that is the experiencER of the experiencING of this moment, now.

Having said that .... notice that ALL qualities of the highest conditions of enlightenment, realization, Buddha-hood, Rainbow Body, Self, etc. etc. ... all describe non-dual awareness ..... and don't describe anything else that anyone has ever experienced (as opposed to what someone may have *said* someone experienced; that's concept, and therefore not applicable, in my opinion).

And To Clarify:

I can say "the rainbow body is non-dual awareness" .... based on the experiencing of non-dual awareness, combined the intuition emanating therefrom.

I cannot say "I can dissolve this physical body, and leave only teeth and fingernails behind", or however that is supposed to go ....

... and I've never heard anyone else, who has been able to make the second statement above, along with the first.

The physically magical stuff is always conceived, always rumored; never actual, it seems.

quote:


Thanks again for the cool balm of the sublime Ramana, such clarity, simplicity, absence of self.

chinna



You're welcome; yes, Ramana is cool balm indeed ... and-though I didn't introduce him into this thread; I believe that was Brother Ananda.

Heart Is Where The AUM Is,

Kirtanman
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Kirtanman

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - Aug 30 2009 :  10:05:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit Kirtanman's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

quote:

In the texts, the body of light is described as having various attributes. Here is a description of the attributes of the Rainbow body from the Secret Sublime sutra:

"They had therefore achieved the Wisdom Concentration, and acquired Mind-Created Bodies, which are adorned with mighty supernatural powers. Such bodies are free of any interspaces, bones, or substances, they are like the sun and the moon, like rainbows, electricity, finest gold, luminous pearls... Pavonine Flowers and Moons, and the images from mirrors."

These attributes all fit the self-luminous radiant bodies of light that I have seen (and felt) in vision.



I would just point out that these attributes are also those of non-dual awareness .... specifically when some of the deeper symbolism is understood .... if the symbolism within Buddhism is the same as the symbolism of non-dual Tantric Shaivism (i.e. Kashmir Shaivism), which I believe is the case.

For instance -- subjectivity is symbolized as light or fire, Sun is the means of perception, Moon is the light of awareness reflected via objects; ditto mirrors.

Experiences are experienced, appearances appear ... but all that is real is what is happening now -- whether at the level of the gross, subtle, or very subtle -- or the changeless clear awareness I Am, in which it is all appearing-dancing, now.

I had some rather amazing visionary experiences, too ... but they either don't come up much any longer ... or, if/when they do ... there's more inclination to rest in the solidity of clear-awareness, itself.

Yet stillness (and) moving, and being (and) becoming are both part of the reality I Am, dancing with the ever oscillating display of itself now.

As In:

I'm not diminishing the beauty of process and sense-of-becoming ... the issues I've seen, and seen sacred writings advise against .... are any sense of identification with the processes // scenery -- no matter how amazing or glorious they may be.

Enlightenment is not an experience.

Enlightenment is the Self in which all experiencing happens now -- the screen, the material of the display .... space made from space dancing within space.

Once self is known, and one is comfortably resting as self ... processes can play out, without risk of distraction awareness from awareness of itself.

Prior to establishment in the foundational immovable awareness of self-as-awareness .... best to focus only on releasing all content of mind .... so as to know the truth of self *as* ground of being, *as* the subject which can never be an object of any kind.

Otherwise, appearances may distract, and the dream continues.

I'm not saying this is the case with you at all, Christi ... I'm agreeing within you that the processes and experiences you cited could be a distraction.

It seems you feel they have value, per your mention of them --- and, very sincerely, far be it from me to say that all processes are without value; I trust that awareness-as-inner-guru is trusted to guide any sense of this that any of us hold.

I've had some return-enhancement of "major bliss" and "major nectar" of late ... and it's pleasant enough (even a fairly short time ago, I'd probably be writing "megabytes" about how awesome it all is ... ) ... but these days, I have a deeper sense of how any experience fits .... which is, basically: waves can be big or small ... but ultimately, they're just the very surface of This That I Am.

The biggest block to realization is thinking that it can be somewhere other than here, and "some when" other than now.



Heart Is Where The AUM Is,

Kirtanman
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Aug 31 2009 :  7:35:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Kirtanman,

quote:
I can say "the rainbow body is non-dual awareness" .... based on the experiencing of non-dual awareness, combined the intuition emanating therefrom.

I cannot say "I can dissolve this physical body, and leave only teeth and fingernails behind", or however that is supposed to go ....

... and I've never heard anyone else, who has been able to make the second statement above, along with the first.

The physically magical stuff is always conceived, always rumored; never actual, it seems.


I guess as long as you are hanging out purely with beings that are constantly on this side of the tooth and nails equation, then that is always going to be the case.

quote:
Regardless, though: my main "hypothesis" remains .....

That non-dual awareness as articulated by Ramana Maharshi, and the rainbow body, along with all terms I feel are clearly equivalent, when viewed from non-dual awareness -- are the same -- and the "attaining" of them, is simply the shift from identification with the "thought called me", to knowing true identity as awareness itself.

(Read descriptions of the rainbow body -- and ask yourself: could they simply be referring to unconditioned, non-dual awareness, here?)


It is an interesting hypothesis, but I'm still not that convinced. Here are four reasons why:

1) In Mahayana Buddhism, the Tibetans say that the attainment of the body of light (rainbow body) is proof that someone has attained full enlightenment. If the rainbow body were simply a metaphor for the enlightened condition, then they would be saying that the attainment of the enlightened condition was proof that someone was fully enlightened. Tautology?

2) The rainbow body is described in both Tibetan Buddhism and Gnostic Christianity as having three aspects. One aspect is a body made of pure light (sambhogakaya in Buddhism, or the body of divine glory in Christianity), which is characterised as existing beyond time and space but as having form. Beyond this is the Dharmakaya, a higher aspect of the body of light (called the Holy body in Christianity). This body is without form and is invisible, but is the creator of the two lower aspects of the body of light. The third aspect is the Nirmanakaya, or created body (called the emanation body in Christianity). The Nirmanakaya is said to appear just like a normal human body, except that when you try to touch it, your hand will pass straight through.

If the rainbow body were a metaphor for the realization of non-dual awareness, then what would the Nirmanakaya be referring to?

3) Both the Tibetans and the Gnostic Christians use the term "body" to refer to the body of light, in all three of its aspects. If the term is synonymous with the realization of our true nature, then why use the word "body" at all? Why not say the rainbow consciousness, or the rainbow nature etc. ?

4) The Tibetan Buddhists do have a very well developed understanding of the nature of non-dual awareness (as I'm sure you know), which is what Dzogchen and Mahamudra are all about, so why would they throw a rather complex energy manifestation model on top of it?

Just some food for thought...

Christi



Edited by - Christi on Aug 31 2009 7:37:28 PM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 31 2009 :  8:32:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
When someone achieves the rainbow body the physical body dissolves leaving only hair and nails. Then a Rainbow appears in the sky, either as a curved rainbow or as a rainbow halo around the sun. This phenomena has been witnessed thousands of times by the Tibetans. This is evidence of realization observable by the public. There is no experience of the rainbow body. It cannot be experienced.

What is it evidence of? The Rainbow Body is evidence of realizing the Dharmakaya. One can only do that when one as no attachments and no fixations on any reference points, and a mind of complete non-dual compassion, but at the Sambhogakaya level where one has form and differentiation within the field of wisdom beings, like the deities.

Dzogchen practitioners describe integrating their elements into the five wisdom lights of Togal. That is, during Togal (staring into sun rays while in a state of non-dual contemplation), actual lights appear within one's field of vision. One, then, absorbs one's mind into them, and the four visions of Togal arise, basically exhausting one's attachments to appearances as external phenomena.

The Kagyu Lamas say that when one realizes the full buddhahood in this life, your body, hair, nails and all will simply disappear. Marpa's wife became a vajra and dissolved into his heart, and then Marpa just disappeared. The Kagyu Lamas describe Buddhahood simply as no attachment and no focus whatsoever, ultimate bodhichitta. Kagyu guru yoga basically advances the practitioner to the level of the third vision of togal. At the path of seeing (on the 5 Paths).

What I see is that the five wisdom lights are the perceptible level of the five wisdoms. The five wisdoms appear as a natural condition of realizing the Dharmakaya and one's aspiration to aid all samsaric beings. Wisdom is relative. There's no point of wisdom if you are not going to aid others in samsara. The five wisdoms empty by nature. Emptiness is realized when one's winds become still. Winds move because of attachment and fixation. The cessations of the winds can happen via a yogic method, as in Togal, or via blessings and the direction introduction of emptiness in Mahamudra. (Actually Dzogchen has this same essential practice).

With the blessings of the lineage and complete non-attachment non-fixation, one will fully integrate with the Dharmakaya, which is the inseparability of appearances and possibilities. Basically dissolving into the rigpa (which is not awareness, because awareness is a continuum, rigpa is unborn), ceasing, but abiding as the unlimited possibilities of unborn naturally occurring compassion within the field of samsara as the blessings of the lineage (as the nature of mind).

Guru Yoga and non-dual contemplation is the is best and fastest means of attaining enlightenment. Sri Maharshi agrees one hundred percent. His guru was Aranachula Mountain. Some Shivaites and Tantric Buddhists claim Mount Kailash as the guru. But mostly everyone has a human guru. The point is that one has faith.

The main point is of guru yoga and realizing the nature of mind quickly without specific methods is faith. Faith alone is not enough. One needs good teachings and methods. However, with strong faith in the guru one will essentially merge with the guru. If that guru's mind is non-dual abiding, one will quickly abide in that same state. One's one has the non-dual realization one must simply become totally familiar with it by repeating the sadhana a lot. But with enough repetition, one will quickly eradicate all doubt about that unique state.

Once one has completely eradicated all doubts about that unique state is there any difference between that and faith? One difference. Faith is believing but not knowing first hand. Elimination of all doubts is first hand knowledge. Once one has first hand knowledge of the unique state, one just continues confidently in that state. In that state, the path of seeing, one will still experience the residue or scars of ignorance. For example, one will still experience the behavior of anger, but not feel angry. The habitual patterns appear even at the path of seeing. But because one remains in a state of contemplation, one's habit energy instantly transforms into wisdom. One can act out as if angry to teach someone a valuable lesson, but one is internally a placid sea.

Quickly one moves into the stage of meditation, because every time the habit patterns arise, they self-liberate. As they self-liberate one's meditation becomes deeper and more intense. The process of returning to the source of the confused patterns takes one closer to buddhahood. Which is the path of no more practice, the end.

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Aug 31 2009 9:33:42 PM
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Aug 31 2009 :  10:56:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Please forgive me if this is out of place....but I feel that there may be too much emphasis being put on "disappearing" and not enough emphasis on "living". Why someone would want to become a light body and dissolve out of material existance is WAY beyond me. This life is AWESOME!!! Enjoy it while you are still here! Let the "light body" come when it comes. There are MUCH better things to focus on in my opinion. But that's just my opinion

Love,
Carson

Edited by - CarsonZi on Aug 31 2009 10:57:23 PM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 31 2009 :  11:34:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi

Please forgive me if this is out of place....but I feel that there may be too much emphasis being put on "disappearing" and not enough emphasis on "living". Why someone would want to become a light body and dissolve out of material existance is WAY beyond me. This life is AWESOME!!! Enjoy it while you are still here! Let the "light body" come when it comes. There are MUCH better things to focus on in my opinion. But that's just my opinion

Love,
Carson



The point of realizing emptiness is buddhahood. When one has attained buddhahood one can manifest in any numbers of bodies to relieve the suffering of all sentient beings throughout space. So Buddhahood is super life, unlimited life.

Sorry if that wasn't clear before. One first realizes the Dharmakaya, and then one can manifest as the Rupakaya, like the Buddha. So it's not about disappearing, it's about purifying, using ultra-powerful methods.

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Aug 31 2009 11:41:48 PM
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grihastha

USA
184 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  09:56:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit grihastha's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
That's a good point, Carsonziji, but in most of the religions that have a tradition corresponding to 'Enlightenment,' it's usually seen as an ultimate condition, and one that generally signals the end of existence in human form, or at least a dramatic transformation (ie the various stigmatized saints - and in the Indian traditions, Enlightenment usually brings the end of life unless the realizer decides to stay around to help others realize themselves, eg Ramakrishna).

I suppose the key is that one of the facts (if you can use that word) of Enlightenment is that, by its very nature, it trumps the 'awesomeness' of physical existence. So it's an either/or. Either you enjoy life as life, or you go for realization. Although the Tantric path uses the joys of existence as fuel to reach Enlightenment, the joys aren't an end in themselves...

Peace,

gri
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  10:20:00 AM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Grihastha....

quote:
I suppose the key is that one of the facts (if you can use that word) of Enlightenment is that, by its very nature, it trumps the 'awesomeness' of physical existence. So it's an either/or. Either you enjoy life as life, or you go for realization.


I would have to disagree gri....not that it matters. Just my two cents here....

I disagree that Enlightenment makes existance an "either/or" type of thing at all. I disagree that you "either enjoy life as life or you go for realization"...in my opinion enlightenment IS enjoying Life as Life! But my Path seems to be a little different than many of others...I think I am just coming at the centre from a different angle then most. We are all One regardless.

Love,
Carson

Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 01 2009 10:26:27 AM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  12:10:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Gri and Carson, You're both wrong and right. You don't enjoy life as life until you are enlightened. Before that one is suffering with myriad attachments and confusion. One does not JUST cease. One's ego ceases. But one carries on as the embodiment of compassion, and all actions of body, speech and mind are infused through and through with compassion.
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  12:37:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Konchok....

I really have no desire to argue with you (or anyone for that matter) but you are missing my point. What I am trying to say is that focussing on leaving this plane, focussing on "attaining" (this word right here should trigger the warning flags) the "rainbow body" or a "light body", (which when it occurs means you will soon be leaving this plane of existance) is IMO misplaced focus. This is focussing on the FUTURE not on the NOW. Loving Life how it Is right NOW is more important to me then anything that may or may not happen to me in the future. Learn to love life the way it is right now and the Rainbow Body will be GIVEN (as opposed to attained) when the time is right. Focussing on attaining the Rainbow Body (or enlightenment for that matter) will only serve to keep you suffering even longer IMO. Again this is only my opinion as I do not have a "light body" and am not "enlightened".

Love,
Carson

Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 01 2009 12:40:04 PM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  12:47:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi

Hi Konchok....

I really have no desire to argue with you (or anyone for that matter) but you are missing MY point. What I am trying to say is that focussing on leaving this plane, focussing on "attaining" (this word right here should trigger the warning flags) the "rainbow body" or a "light body", (which when it occurs means you will soon be leaving this plane of existance) is IMO misplaced focus. This is focussing on the FUTURE not on the NOW. Loving Life how it Is right NOW is more important to me then anything that may or may not happen to me in the future. Learn to love life the way it is right now and the Rainbow Body will be GIVEN (as opposed to attained) when the time is right. Focussing on attaining the Rainbow Body will only serve to keep you suffering even longer IMO. Again this is only my opinion as I do not have a "light body".

Love,
Carson



You are commenting so I'm addressing. Your point is not lost here. You are right, focusing on some future goal is not going to create the conditions for attainment. One has to abide in nowness without attachment or fixation to attain the Rainbow Body. That means one has to get beyond ME, MY I, WE, OUR, YOU and YOUR points.

We are merely discussing the comparative theories between different traditions, at least that's how it seems. The point here is not to correct anyone's practice or offer advice (which is a grand waste of time). This issue of total disappearance or leaving behind hair and nails is a question of method and path. IMHO, learning to love life is not the method. Loving life is a side-effect of practice, but making loving life a focus of practice is just ordinary attachment.
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  1:01:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

That means one has to get beyond ME, MY I, WE, OUR, YOU and YOUR points.


Agreed. The only reason I said you missed "my" point, was because I couldn't really say you missed "the" point as there are many points. What you were missing was the point I was trying to make...not my point as in I "own" it, just as in it is the point this person was making.

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

This issue of total disappearance or leaving behind hair and nails is a question of method and path.


And IMO this is a pointless to debate about things you have no experience with. Focus on right now...your method, your path.....endless debating over things you have no personal experience with is pure mental masturbation IMO. Focus on living your life right Now.

Love,
Carson

Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 01 2009 1:15:18 PM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  1:13:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

That means one has to get beyond ME, MY I, WE, OUR, YOU and YOUR points.


Agreed. The only reason I said you missed "my" point, was because I couldn't really say you missed "the" point as there are many points. What you were missing was the point I was trying to make...not my point and in I "own" it, just as in it is the point this person was making.

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

This issue of total disappearance or leaving behind hair and nails is a question of method and path.


And IMO this is a pointless to debate about things you have no experience with. Focus on right now...your method, your path.....endless debating over things you have no personal experience with is pure mental masturbation IMO. Focus on living your life right Now.

Love,
Carson



I have experience with the method. I agree that the Rainbow Body and disappearing is not important. My point about Marpa disappearing was that the Rainbow Body is not important. What's important is enlightenment.

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 01 2009 1:18:24 PM
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  1:28:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Konchok...
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

I have experience with the method.


You have experience with "a" method...but you can't call one method, "the" method. There are many methods all aimed to produce the same goal....some more effective then others. But just as the method you are describing which before you editted you claimed had been used to "fruition", so has the AYP method been used to "fruition". AYP works. I'm sure Vajrayana likely works too. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

I agree that the Rainbow Body and disappearing is not important.


Good, it isn't.

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

My point about Marpa disappearing was that the Rainbow Body is not important.


Didn't you just give me crap for using the phrase "my point"? I thought we had transcended the need for words like "ME, MY I, WE, OUR, YOU and YOUR".

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

What's important is enlightenment.



Absolutely...and enlightenment by definition (to me) is: Loving Life as it Is.

Love,
Carson
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  1:46:57 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi

Hi Konchok...
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

I have experience with the method.


You have experience with "a" method...but you can't call one method, "the" method. There are many methods all aimed to produce the same goal....some more effective then others. But just as the method you are describing which before you editted you claimed had been used to "fruition", so has the AYP method been used to "fruition". AYP works. I'm sure Vajrayana likely works too. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

I agree that the Rainbow Body and disappearing is not important.


Good, it isn't.

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

My point about Marpa disappearing was that the Rainbow Body is not important.


Didn't you just give me crap for using the phrase "my point"? I thought we had transcended the need for words like "ME, MY I, WE, OUR, YOU and YOUR".

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

What's important is enlightenment.



Absolutely...and enlightenment by definition (to me) is: Loving Life as it Is.

Love,
Carson



That's what I said...
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  2:11:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Perfect! Then we can finally put this thread to rest?

Love,
Carson
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  2:34:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi

Perfect! Then we can finally put this thread to rest?

Love,
Carson



Is that why you entered it? I think you had something to add.
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Kirtanman

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  9:55:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit Kirtanman's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by grihastha


I suppose the key is that one of the facts (if you can use that word) of Enlightenment is that, by its very nature, it trumps the 'awesomeness' of physical existence. So it's an either/or. Either you enjoy life as life, or you go for realization. Although the Tantric path uses the joys of existence as fuel to reach Enlightenment, the joys aren't an end in themselves...

Peace,

gri



Kashmir Shaivism (i.e. Abhinavagupta, his major work Tantraloka, etc.) teach that the ultimate condition of Jivan Mukti - "liberated while living", is (and I quote) ... "liberation and enjoyment".

Misperception of partiality creates a veil of conceptual artifice (and/or artificial concept) which *prevents* enjoying life fully.

Enlightenment is the removal of the artificial, conceptual veils (of the misperceptions/thoughts of being a partial being, and the attachments and aversions dreamed as a result of this fundamental misperception).

As Adyashanti says (paraphrasing the Buddha) - "Enlightenment is not freedom from being human; enlightenment is freedom to be fully human."

Enlightenment is simply the awareness of the original wholeness of the original wholeness of awareness (that we each-all actually are, here-now).


_/\_


Intending The Joy of Letting Yourself Know Your Whole Self Now,

Kirtanman
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cosmic

USA
821 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  10:43:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi

Perfect! Then we can finally put this thread to rest?


Never!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3khTntOxX-k



Not to throw more wood on the fire, but I thought all the talk of disappearing/leaving/dissolving/etc. was just poetic metaphor dissolving the ego/merging with the divine/etc. Is this not the case?

Forgive the ignorance on this matter.

With Love
cosmic
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