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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 19 2009 :  10:03:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I forget if I posted this before, but this is absolutely excellent:

http://www.surajamrita.com/bon/buddhahood.html


It describes how to obtain Buddhahood in each of the different levels of teaching.

It even describes Arhatship and rainbow body.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 19 2009 10:25:40 PM
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 19 2009 :  10:39:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Alwayson, I hope you feel the love. I hope you find your way to the floor.

Michaelangelo, I don't remember arguing with you. I was always arguing with Always... Thought I could help him; he thinks compassion is a wish. I'm sad. He's stubborn and confused with no teacher. I actually practice, which is where I'm going now. I'm told by some that I'm at the path of seeing. I guess that remains to be seen.

I'm in a lot of pain right now...

I'm reminded of a hospital full of nothing but doctors who examine each other until they realize no one is a doctor and everyone is a patient.

Toodles.

PS Alwayson what happened to Alwayson follows the Dalai Lama? He doesn't buy into that Bon version does he? Not that the Bon version isn't valid; it's just not Buddhist. Just keepin it real wich ya homie. Try to stay consistent.

FYI There's no Vajrayana nothing without lineage blessings... Like it or not, all this talk is basically just smoke... I hear the wheels spinnin.

Lineage blessings.

Lineage blessings.

Without lineage blessings there's no starting... no rigpa... no dzogchen... no buddhahood...

The blessings are not a concept, not a method... The Buddha transferred his mind energy to his disciples and on down the line to today. Doubt it, despise it... doesn't matter. They are real. They are powerful. They are very serious, not a joke, not funny; the Dharma Protectors are dangerous. You have to be careful what you say when criticizing any Vajrayana teaching in a public way. Very bad karma comes from it, severe, even deadly. The teachings produce Buddhas, not a cartoon character, a universal dharma monarch.

The appropriate way to engage Vajrayana is with a spirit of open mindedness. Vajrayana is a treasure of humanity, because it is the highest expression of mystic visionary life. Believe it or not Vajrayana is extremely high powered way to purify and awaken in an extremely short period of time. And it's a lot more than just realizing I am That. Buddhahood entails real battles with the hordes of Maras and subduing demons.

Purifying karma all the way is very taxing. The Buddha had his body chopped up in past lives to pay his karmic debts. Lord Jigten Sumgon caught leprosy before his enlightenment. There are many gross stories like this, plagues, infestations, swollen parts, etc. When Buddhahood is close at hand, the body takes a whoopin.... I'm really hoping that having my leg chopped off and my stomach cut open is going to count. It was latched back on and stapled back together.

So people who are willing to become Buddhas are not trying to be rock stars. If they are, they are in for a major can of whoop a**. Those who really undertake the path have to undergo extreme hardships and trials.

The nice thing about Dzogchen is that the purification process is kinder and gentler. The hard thing about Dzogchen is that the lineages are so screwed up that there are not many masters who can transfer the blessings any more. They are there though. With a powerful aspiration one can find them. If you are serious about Dzogchen, better not to talk about it and just find the Guru.

I wish I could explain what I'm going through. I feel like I've been trampled by an NFL team.

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Aug 20 2009 02:17:00 AM
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 20 2009 :  11:55:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thats true

You can't practice essence Mahamudra without a guru.

So I was always confused why you talked about these "high" teachings anyway. By your own admission you need a guru. And you have taken vows as well. You don't seem to understand that the Dharma Protectors attack those who have taken vows i.e. you.

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

PS Alwayson what happened to Alwayson follows the Dalai Lama? He doesn't buy into that Bon version does he? Not that the Bon version isn't valid; it's just not Buddhist. Just keepin it real wich ya homie. Try to stay consistent.




I already explained this to you. The Bon school historically was informed by the Gelug teachings and point of view. They followed Gelug Madhyamaka etc. So yes, its representative of the Dalai Lama.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 20 2009 12:27:06 PM
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 20 2009 :  1:25:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

Thats true

So I was always confused why you talked about these "high" teachings anyway.



Because you could be great. I pray you meet your guru.
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Aug 20 2009 :  1:29:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

Alwayson, I hope you feel the love. I hope you find your way to the floor.

Michaelangelo, I don't remember arguing with you. I was always arguing with Always... Thought I could help him; he thinks compassion is a wish. I'm sad. He's stubborn and confused with no teacher. I actually practice, which is where I'm going now. I'm told by some that I'm at the path of seeing. I guess that remains to be seen.

I'm in a lot of pain right now...

I'm reminded of a hospital full of nothing but doctors who examine each other until they realize no one is a doctor and everyone is a patient.

Toodles.

PS Alwayson what happened to Alwayson follows the Dalai Lama? He doesn't buy into that Bon version does he? Not that the Bon version isn't valid; it's just not Buddhist. Just keepin it real wich ya homie. Try to stay consistent.

FYI There's no Vajrayana nothing without lineage blessings... Like it or not, all this talk is basically just smoke... I hear the wheels spinnin.

Lineage blessings.

Lineage blessings.

Without lineage blessings there's no starting... no rigpa... no dzogchen... no buddhahood...

The blessings are not a concept, not a method... The Buddha transferred his mind energy to his disciples and on down the line to today. Doubt it, despise it... doesn't matter. They are real. They are powerful. They are very serious, not a joke, not funny; the Dharma Protectors are dangerous. You have to be careful what you say when criticizing any Vajrayana teaching in a public way. Very bad karma comes from it, severe, even deadly. The teachings produce Buddhas, not a cartoon character, a universal dharma monarch.

The appropriate way to engage Vajrayana is with a spirit of open mindedness. Vajrayana is a treasure of humanity, because it is the highest expression of mystic visionary life. Believe it or not Vajrayana is extremely high powered way to purify and awaken in an extremely short period of time. And it's a lot more than just realizing I am That. Buddhahood entails real battles with the hordes of Maras and subduing demons.

Purifying karma all the way is very taxing. The Buddha had his body chopped up in past lives to pay his karmic debts. Lord Jigten Sumgon caught leprosy before his enlightenment. There are many gross stories like this, plagues, infestations, swollen parts, etc. When Buddhahood is close at hand, the body takes a whoopin.... I'm really hoping that having my leg chopped off and my stomach cut open is going to count. It was latched back on and stapled back together.

So people who are willing to become Buddhas are not trying to be rock stars. If they are, they are in for a major can of whoop a**. Those who really undertake the path have to undergo extreme hardships and trials.

The nice thing about Dzogchen is that the purification process is kinder and gentler. The hard thing about Dzogchen is that the lineages are so screwed up that there are not many masters who can transfer the blessings any more. They are there though. With a powerful aspiration one can find them. If you are serious about Dzogchen, better not to talk about it and just find the Guru.

I wish I could explain what I'm going through. I feel like I've been trampled by an NFL team.



Dear Osel,

I'm really sorry you are in such pain. I greatly admire your drive, your dharma combativeness, and your knowledge of your tradition, and I'm sorry if exchanges intended to clarify, as well as challenge and make links that sometimes seemed excluded, have contributed to your feelings. I have never managed such drive as yours, or the application for such knowledge, so have always been drawn to the simpler paths. You remind me of a spiritual warrior, a St Bernard of Clairvaux or a St Dominic or a Swami Vivekananda, whereas I have always felt drawn to the hermits, the simple and the weaker brethren, St Bruno or Ramana or Ramakrishna, or the beedi salesman Nisargadatta. Neither is better. Both point ultimately to the same, as you know so well.

I must control my English irony, I concede. It is not very helpful without face to face contact, where the twinkle in the eye can be seen and everyone can enjoy it.

In terms of pain and suffering, there really is no 'just realising I Am That'. Whatever path we follow will entail passing through all the terrors and demonic attacks we are due. The advantage of focusing on I Am That, or something similar, during the journey, is that it is a simple and effective way of discriminating the terrors from the Real. And in the heat of the battle, simple can be helpful. I recall terrifying experiences on my own journey, like the worst images of Breugel, but the advaitin's clarity, that none of it is real, meant I never let slip my hold on Reality, and eventually passed through the terrors into the light (at least I sure hope they aren't coming back!). I have always felt that the Tibetans, even more than the Roman Catholics of which I am one by birth, risk giving too much reality to the demons and so allowing us to get lost in the terrors. No doubt personifying them so clearly and colourfully can allow us to make sense of them, and to enact something to make peace with them.

In my own case, I was so grateful to discover the simplicity of non-duality, and its resonance with the inner light which guided me irrespective of the damnation that was regularly preached to me as a kid.

Peace and joy great Dharma Warrior

chinna

Edited by - chinna on Aug 20 2009 1:41:49 PM
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 20 2009 :  2:31:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

Thats true

So I was always confused why you talked about these "high" teachings anyway.



Because you could be great. I pray you meet your guru.



LOL, what does it have to do with me? I did not post here for a quite a while, in the meanwhile you posted various threads, such as guru yoga visualization etc. Heck when you became a buddhist, I told you to keep your mouth shut and keep your vows, did I not?

By the way, I am not interested in becoming a Vajrayana practitioner. I am not prepared to take the vows and all that.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 20 2009 2:39:41 PM
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Aug 20 2009 :  2:36:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Question....

What exactly is the vow that has to be taken in order to practice Vajrayana Buddhism? Just curious.

Love,
Carson
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Steve

277 Posts

Posted - Aug 20 2009 :  5:18:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit Steve's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Osel,

I appreciate your contributions to the forum.

Readers of this topic may enjoy 'On Padmasambhavas Rainbow Body' by the Buddhist yogi C. M. Chen that can be read at http://www.yogichen.org/cw/cw33/bk093.html.

Love and Light,
Steve

Edited by - Steve on Aug 25 2009 4:41:49 PM
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Aug 21 2009 :  04:49:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Alwayson

At the risk of sending everyone into paroxysms of laughter, what does 'LOL' mean? Many people seem to use this expression. I have got the hang of 'IMO', but can't get beyond 'Lots of love' for this one, which is what it would mean in English text-speak, but doesn't always seem to fit the context.

chinna

Edited by - chinna on Aug 21 2009 05:33:09 AM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Aug 21 2009 :  05:52:27 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Chinna,

In this forum LOL means "Laugh out loud".

Christi
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Aug 21 2009 :  06:24:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Chinna,

In this forum LOL means "Laugh out loud".

Christi



Thanks Christi.

Whilst I'm online, it occurs to me to say that the Western European Breugel-type terrors and demons experienced as mentioned above, turned into African-type terrors and demons and patterns (of which I knew nothing, initially, until I researched them) when I visited southern Africa at the time for work - quite culturally specific to the Ndebele tribe in whose area I was working!

So I wonder if Tibetan Buddhists in the West experience demons (and Rainbow Bodies etc) in Tibetan Buddhist form, or in the local cultural context? If not in Tibetan form, a practitioner might imagine that s/he wasn't experiencing what is described in the teachings, when one really is, but it's just taking the local form.

I am reminded of the Panchen Lama visiting a silent catholic order of nuns of my acquaintance, and speaking of his tradition in their terms. He found the experience of this community so profound that he expressed a wish to be reincarnated as a nun of that community.

I recall another silent order of monks, the most austere of all catholic orders, the Carthusians, where I spent time in several communities in France and UK. I started off feeling quite a fraud, because there was me full of advaita and yoga and kundalini experiences alongside my catholic roots, and wondering how to integrate all this with the perspectives of an Order that glories in having never really changed since its 11th century foundation. I needen't have worried. It became clear to me, from my conversations with the Priors and Novice Masters concerned, that they had just the same experiences, they just used different words, and gave different emphases of their significance. For them, the daily round of the Divine Office, and contemplative prayer, carried them through all the demons and light-bodies without getting lost. Some did in fact use yoga to channel the winds and energies experienced. And siddhis were not uncommon.

The spiritual world is the common inheritance and experience of humanity, seen through different cultural 'spectacles'. How could it not be. Truth is not-two. There is no secret beyond that. When not-two is realised, then everything possible is contained in that, including all the secrets, and will be at some level experienced, the level depending upon the significance that we give it, and the form depending on our cultural context.

"We are already one. But we imagine that we are not. What we have to recover is our original unity. What we have to be is what we are." Thomas Merton

chinna


Edited by - chinna on Aug 21 2009 06:52:32 AM
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grihastha

USA
184 Posts

Posted - Aug 21 2009 :  08:32:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit grihastha's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Lovely, grace-full post, Chinna. Thanks.

Osel, this too shall pass. You're an inspiration.

Emaho!

gri
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 21 2009 :  11:52:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by chinna

quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Chinna,

In this forum LOL means "Laugh out loud".

Christi



Thanks Christi.

Whilst I'm online, it occurs to me to say that the Western European Breugel-type terrors and demons experienced as mentioned above, turned into African-type terrors and demons and patterns (of which I knew nothing, initially, until I researched them) when I visited southern Africa at the time for work - quite culturally specific to the Ndebele tribe in whose area I was working!

So I wonder if Tibetan Buddhists in the West experience demons (and Rainbow Bodies etc) in Tibetan Buddhist form, or in the local cultural context? If not in Tibetan form, a practitioner might imagine that s/he wasn't experiencing what is described in the teachings, when one really is, but it's just taking the local form.

I am reminded of the Panchen Lama visiting a silent catholic order of nuns of my acquaintance, and speaking of his tradition in their terms. He found the experience of this community so profound that he expressed a wish to be reincarnated as a nun of that community.

I recall another silent order of monks, the most austere of all catholic orders, the Carthusians, where I spent time in several communities in France and UK. I started off feeling quite a fraud, because there was me full of advaita and yoga and kundalini experiences alongside my catholic roots, and wondering how to integrate all this with the perspectives of an Order that glories in having never really changed since its 11th century foundation. I needen't have worried. It became clear to me, from my conversations with the Priors and Novice Masters concerned, that they had just the same experiences, they just used different words, and gave different emphases of their significance. For them, the daily round of the Divine Office, and contemplative prayer, carried them through all the demons and light-bodies without getting lost. Some did in fact use yoga to channel the winds and energies experienced. And siddhis were not uncommon.

The spiritual world is the common inheritance and experience of humanity, seen through different cultural 'spectacles'. How could it not be. Truth is not-two. There is no secret beyond that. When not-two is realised, then everything possible is contained in that, including all the secrets, and will be at some level experienced, the level depending upon the significance that we give it, and the form depending on our cultural context.

"We are already one. But we imagine that we are not. What we have to recover is our original unity. What we have to be is what we are." Thomas Merton

chinna





Mind is a shared treasure.
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mikael

27 Posts

Posted - Aug 22 2009 :  01:30:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit mikael's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
alwayson,

I know how you feel about all the vows of Vajrayana. thats why I never received any empowerments when I was in India, even though I could've, because I didn't want to make commitments.

I also don't dig the one-size-fits-all scheme of Tantra which still seems geared for monks, but I don't doubt that it works. Just not for me.

I'm a student of Namkhai Norbu as I told you earlier and there are no vows or commitments. that's why I really dig it. it's very free and open.. not traditional. Very much Western compatible. Norbu did live in Italy since the 1960s so he understands Westerners very well, he's also a Maha Siddha, no doubt. a true Master of our time, and all time.

If you feel inclined to do a particular Tantric practice, you can. you can do whatever you want actually. as long as you keep the Dzogchen view and do Guru Yoga. the essence of Guru Yoga is mind to mind transmission of your true nature. If you don't get a taste during transmission, then you can do practices. there are daily practices called thuns which are guru yoga, tantra, and dzogchen all in one. very powerful practices. All practices though, except Guru yoga, are secondary and are only used to get rid of obstacles in attempt to experiencing Rigpa. Rushens and Semzdins are like the Dzogchen ngondro and these practices are used to fully experience Rigpa, without doubts.

I know you're very interested in Thogal, but this practice is so advanced... so advanced. you need to have 24/7 stability in Rigpa through Trekchod to practice Thogal, and as far as I know Rinpoche has given thogal instructions to very few people. Most people just aren't ready. I too am very interested in this high practice but i'm being realistic. it's great to look up to the top of the mountain but eventually you gotta start climbing at the base.

:)

mikael
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 22 2009 :  11:09:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I never took any vows, other than the Bodhisattva vow. I'm not a monk or have tantric vows. I am also dzogchen student of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. I have many transmissions from Nyingmapa Lamas.

The Dharma protectors do not care about that. If you talk about Dzogchen or Mahamudra or any other Vajrayana teaching, the Dharma Protectors are watching. They attack people who promulgate wrong views or disclose secrets. At this time, there really are not many secrets left. All the Dzogchen and Mahamudra HH's have authorized the promulgation of all the secrets. If you look for them, you will find them.

The purpose of the secrets is that the teachings are easily misunderstood and people can get upset and promulgate wrong views. Especially people without teachers. There are gruesome stories of people losing limbs or getting killed because they slandered some teaching. This is not happening so much any more. It's more important for people to get exposed to the teachings before they are lost.

Also my practice is Guru Yoga and my samaya is maintaining the View of "Rigpa." In the Co-Emergent Mahamudra [<-HH Taklung Matul Rinpoche says is correct term, not Essence Mahamudra], Rigpa and Sem are mixed in. The direct introduction introduces the same basis: The "essence" of the present moment (appearances and thoughts co-emergent with emptiness). Once one has been introduced, and has received the blessings of the lineage, begins the path at the Path of Seeing.

The Co-Emergent Mahamudra is rarely taught, and usually is only taught to a few people who gain some realization after a 3-year retreat. But a book has been published on authority of HH of Drikung. So it's out there.

I find it very wonderful to see the overlapping practices between Dzogchen and Mahamudra. I would love for these practices to be liberated from their doctrinal and sectarian roots so the Westerner can pick it up from a fresh perspective. That is what is interdependent with the Tibetan Diaspora, and a half-breed Indian in California trained in Vedanta can be exposed to Vajrayana without all the baggage.

The common denominator is Direct Introduction, Guru Yoga and The View (of manifestations as Dharmakaya: aka Rigpa/Tsal, Mind Only School=Sem).

One can debate for generations about which specific method leads to which specific aspect of the path, which is higher and lower, but who has time for that? One has to practice Guru Yoga and meditate.

The wonder of Guru Yoga is that one doesn't REALLY need a live guru. The Guru is in you (and among you). You are downloading (in a sense), a Vulcan mind meld, the mind of the Guru Buddha. If you have STRONG FAITH that you downloading the Buddha's mind, then you will. That is direct introduction, dispelling doubts and continuing in confidence in self-liberation of Garab Dorje's 3 Points. That is the word initiation in 4th Tantric empowerment.

If you are going to do Guru Yoga seriously and meditate, you must have a Dharma Protector puja practice along with it (along with some aspiration/dedication prayers and mantra recitations before and after). When one's mind begins to leave Samsara, the autonomous entities go on the offensive. One needs protection, especially in the early phases, because one's open mind is so tender, and one's blessing energy is so slight.

Once one does a lot of Dharma Protector puja, one's body is the Protector, and so the Protector sort of guides the practitioner. When I'm doing something the Protector likes, I get blessing feelings. When I'm not, I get pain. My prior episodes of pain, were because I was debating and getting attached to arguments, and breaking my Samaya to maintain the View with no attachment and no fixation. What I'm saying now is just general info, and I feel nice. I better not respond to counterpoints. Those are your problem.

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Aug 22 2009 9:35:27 PM
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 23 2009 :  12:51:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
You thought it was wrong to say that the natural state does not exist.

That was simply my understanding of Jigme Lingpa as read in "Approaching the Great Perfection". Maybe the English translation was wrong or my understanding is off.

I will admit I have not realized the nature of the mind in the Vajrayana sense, because it cannot be done without a Lama.

MY understanding, based on MY study of Dzogchen:

All phenomenon lack inherent essence, including thoughts and emotions.
Therefore simply let emotions and thoughts self-liberate into the present moment, like thieves in an empty house. Or like a snake untying its own knots.
Furthermore thoughts and emotions are merely energy currents in the body.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 23 2009 01:53:38 AM
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mikael

27 Posts

Posted - Aug 23 2009 :  03:07:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit mikael's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Alwayson what happened to Alwayson follows the Dalai Lama? He doesn't buy into that Bon version does he? Not that the Bon version isn't valid; it's just not Buddhist. Just keepin it real wich ya homie. Try to stay consistent.



the Dalai Lama considers Bon as another school of Tibetan Buddhism. New (Modern) Bon is different then pre-Padmasambhava Bon. modern Bon contains every aspect of Buddhism and Vajrayana and Dzogchen. a very profound path that shouldn't be dismissed.
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mikael

27 Posts

Posted - Aug 23 2009 :  03:20:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit mikael's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

You thought it was wrong to say that the natural state does not exist.

That was simply my understanding of Jigme Lingpa as read in "Approaching the Great Perfection". Maybe the English translation was wrong or my understanding is off.

I will admit I have not realized the nature of the mind in the Vajrayana sense, because it cannot be done without a Lama.

MY understanding, based on MY study of Dzogchen:

All phenomenon lack inherent essence, including thoughts and emotions.
Therefore simply let emotions and thoughts self-liberate into the present moment, like thieves in an empty house. Or like a snake untying its own knots.
Furthermore thoughts and emotions are merely energy currents in the body.



hey brother, you just missed transmission from Namkhai Norbu. he did his worldwide transmission on the anniversary of Guru Padmsamhava which was july 31st. the next one is november, i think its anniversary of Garab Dorje. Namkhai Norbu always does them on auspicious days. why not participate? start practicing?

where do you live btw? maybe theres a center near you... if not, that's ok. as you can participate via audio webcast and once you become a member of the Dzogchen Community (costs 70$ for your first year or low income) you can purchase instruction texts on practices. All you will need to begin though is the Thun book, which are daily practices. and the Thun DVD which gives explanation of the practices. the Thuns combine Guru yoga, Tantra, and Dzogchen and are complete practices that take you to enlightenment. you need transmission first though.

whenever Rinpoche holds a retreat, theres usually an open webcast. there was just a retreat 7 days ago which was very good. you don't need transmission to participate. there is one coming up Oct 2nd
http://www.tsegyalgareast.org/pages...rinpoche.php

I also really urge you to check out Rinpoche's books, the ones publically available, until you receive transmission and can buy restricted items. Crystal and the Way of Light is such an amazing book, if you haven't read it yet. its essential. you can get it here
http://shangshung.org/store/

since i dont' really come often, feel free to email me if you wanna talk more, or on msn. mixolyd at gmail.com

mikael


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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 23 2009 :  12:46:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by mikael

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Alwayson what happened to Alwayson follows the Dalai Lama? He doesn't buy into that Bon version does he? Not that the Bon version isn't valid; it's just not Buddhist. Just keepin it real wich ya homie. Try to stay consistent.



the Dalai Lama considers Bon as another school of Tibetan Buddhism. New (Modern) Bon is different then pre-Padmasambhava Bon. modern Bon contains every aspect of Buddhism and Vajrayana and Dzogchen. a very profound path that shouldn't be dismissed.




This was my understanding as well. Bon took the best elements from every school.
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 23 2009 :  10:50:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

You thought it was wrong to say that the natural state does not exist.

That was simply my understanding of Jigme Lingpa as read in "Approaching the Great Perfection". Maybe the English translation was wrong or my understanding is off.

I will admit I have not realized the nature of the mind in the Vajrayana sense, because it cannot be done without a Lama.

MY understanding, based on MY study of Dzogchen:

All phenomenon lack inherent essence, including thoughts and emotions.
Therefore simply let emotions and thoughts self-liberate into the present moment, like thieves in an empty house. Or like a snake untying its own knots.
Furthermore thoughts and emotions are merely energy currents in the body.



I actually think you are on the brink of it. Because the nature of mind is experiencing first hand NOT SEEING. Once you don't see once and for all, you give up attaching to any manifestation. So you are not wrong, actually. Nature of mind is just a term, a fiction. It's the exercise of investigation that reveals definite not seeing. Honestly, faith in the Lama Sangye (Guru Buddha) in Guru Yoga is enough to provide the direct introduction. Faith is very important, very strong energy.

But what you are describing will not effect self-liberation. If you merely allow anger to arise and pass away, believing it has no substance, does not liberate that seed of karma from the alaya. One must see directly into that anger's non-substance at the moment it arises. In that moment it is liberated and the seed exhausted.

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Aug 23 2009 11:41:47 PM
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Ananda

3113 Posts

Posted - Aug 25 2009 :  05:04:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit Ananda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
sri ramana maharshi's view on stuff like the rainbow body.

http://www.realization.org/page/doc0/doc0098.htm
quote:
Q: Sri Aurobindo believes that the human body is not the last on this earth. Establishment in the Self, according to him, is not perfectly attained in a human body, for Self-knowledge does not operate there in its natural way. Therefore the vijnanamaya sarira [the body made of pure knowledge]1 in which Self-knowledge can work naturally must be brought down on this earth.

M: Self-knowledge can shine very well in the human body, so there is no need of any other body.


this is just a little glimpse, read the topic it's good and as always with beloved and beautiful Ramana it's simple.

love you guys
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 25 2009 :  11:13:08 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Ananda

sri ramana maharshi's view on stuff like the rainbow body.

http://www.realization.org/page/doc0/doc0098.htm
quote:
Q: Sri Aurobindo believes that the human body is not the last on this earth. Establishment in the Self, according to him, is not perfectly attained in a human body, for Self-knowledge does not operate there in its natural way. Therefore the vijnanamaya sarira [the body made of pure knowledge]1 in which Self-knowledge can work naturally must be brought down on this earth.

M: Self-knowledge can shine very well in the human body, so there is no need of any other body.


this is just a little glimpse, read the topic it's good and as always with beloved and beautiful Ramana it's simple.

love you guys



The Rainbow Body is achieved in the human body. It's not like you achieve the RB and then you go get realized in that. The RB is the evidence of that realization. That's the Nyingma view.

Kagyu view is that RB is not important. Some Kagyu masters' entire bodies just disappear, like Marpa.

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Aug 25 2009 12:20:02 PM
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Steve

277 Posts

Posted - Aug 25 2009 :  1:34:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit Steve's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
The Ligmincha Institute located in Charlottesville, Virginia USA offers retreats-training for anyone interested in seriously pursuing the teachings of the Tibetan Bon tradition. It was founded by Geshe Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. The primary cycle of dzogchen teachings comes from the Zhang Zhung Nyan Gyud lineage. The Experiential Transmission of Zhang Zhung is a multi-year program offered through the institute (see quote below for description). Secondary supporting practices like powa, Tibetan dream and sleep yogas, tummo, etc. are also taught.

Like Namkhai Norbu, taking vows is not necessary. Tenzin Rinpoche is a very friendly, approachable person and wonderful, knowledgeable teacher. A number of people who have studied with Namkhai Norbu have also received training through Tenzin Rinpoche.

For more information, the website is https://www.ligmincha.org.

From the website a brief description ... (Tögel is included in Part 5)

quote:
The Experiential Transmission of Zhang Zhung
Nyam Gyu Dru Gyal wa’i Chag Tri

Dzogchen, also known as the "great perfection" or "great completion," is considered the path of self-liberation and the highest form of teaching and practice in the Bon Buddhist tradition. For practitioners with the capacity it offers the potential for liberation during a single lifetime and within a single body. Until the late 20th century these ancient teachings were kept secret and offered to very few students of any generation. For all these reasons, attending the teachings can be seen as a precious opportunity for students of Tibetan Bon Buddhism.

For more than a decade now Tenzin Rinpoche has devoted the Serenity Ridge Winter Retreat to teaching from The Experiential Transmission of Zhang Zhung (Zhang Zhung Nyam Gyu). This primary cycle of dzogchen teachings is from the Zhang Zhung Nyan Gyud lineage, which along with A-Tri and Dzogchen is one of the three main dzogchen lineages of the Bon Buddhist tradition.

Geshe Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche received his initial teachings from the Experiential Transmission at an early age from his first root master, Lopon Sangye Tenzin Rinpoche. These teachings served as a foundation for Rinpoche’s personal training, practice, and study, culminating in his completing the traditional 49-day dark retreat. Today they continue to form an integral aspect of Rinpoche’s teachings in the West.

In teaching the Experiential Transmission, Rinpoche draws from a text known as the Chag Tri (Nyam Gyu Dru Gyal wa’i Chag Tri). The Chag Tri has 11 chapters, taught at Serenity Ridge as a five-part series:

Part 1: The Ngöndro. This first part comprises the recitation and instruction of the preliminary practices, or ngöndro. The ngöndro is the authentic doorway through which a practitioner gains entry to the Experiential Transmission teachings and receives the blessings of its lineage holders. Its integrated series of nine preliminary practices help to tame the mind, turn the mind toward the path, and purify the illnesses, obstacles and mental obscurations that obscure the mind’s primordially perfect nature.

Part 2: Introduction to the Nature of Mind. The knowledge and skills learned here are applied in all parts of the cycle to come. In a deliberate and structured way, the Part 2 teachings present the foundational practice of zhiné as the skillful means to develop a calm abiding mind; and give instructions for dark retreat, sky gazing, and sun gazing as skillful means to develop stability in mindfulness. These practices ultimately permit experiences of innate awareness, or rigpa. In turn, when experiences of innate awareness are developed and stabilized in a methodical way through meditation practice, they confirm the direction of the practitioner’s journey and allow it to naturally unfold.

Part 3: The View, Meditation, Behavior, and Result of Dzogchen. Part 3 further guides students in developing inner clarity and integrating what they have learned into their practice and their lives.

Practitioners will explore:

how the base of naked seeing provides the self-introduction and the dzogchen view
how the path of experiencing the clear light is the meditation
how the secondary causes of being challenged to bring every experience to the path are the behavior
how the fruition of developing confidence in the three kayas and finding one’s own place is the result.

Part 4: Removing Obstacles. Here students will receive teachings on how to overcome obstacles to their practice while sustaining and cultivating the results they have achieved during previous parts of the cycle. They will learn and engage in practices that work with the channels, prana and tigle, such as trul khor (Tibetan yoga), tsa lung, and additional support practices drawn from the Zhang Zhung Nyam Gyu, A Khrid and other sources.

Part 5: The Practice of Seven Cycles of Clear Light. During this final part of the cycle, students will receive guidance in tögel (pure vision) meditation and will engage in practices with the sky, sun and darkness. Tenzin Rinpoche will discuss the dark-retreat experiences of various teachers, including his own experiences; and will offer a brief explanation of the seven cycles comprising the traditional retreat of 49 days in total darkness. For those students who have completed Parts 1 through 5 and are ready to engage in the 49-day dark retreat, Rinpoche will be available to give personal, one-on-one guidance.
Love and Light,
Steve

Edited by - Steve on Aug 25 2009 1:37:30 PM
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mikael

27 Posts

Posted - Aug 28 2009 :  02:05:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit mikael's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
sounds awesome, thanks for sharing Steve
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Aug 29 2009 :  5:41:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Ananda,

quote:
sri ramana maharshi's view on stuff like the rainbow body.

http://www.realization.org/page/doc0/doc0098.htm

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Sri Aurobindo believes that the human body is not the last on this earth. Establishment in the Self, according to him, is not perfectly attained in a human body, for Self-knowledge does not operate there in its natural way. Therefore the vijnanamaya sarira [the body made of pure knowledge]1 in which Self-knowledge can work naturally must be brought down on this earth.

M: Self-knowledge can shine very well in the human body, so there is no need of any other body.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



this is just a little glimpse, read the topic it's good and as always with beloved and beautiful Ramana it's simple.

love you guys


I believe in this case, the questioner is misrepresenting the views of Sri Aurobindo. If I have understood rightly, Aurobindo did not teach that a body of pure knowledge or light (vijnyanamaya sarira) had to be brought down to be used in place of the normal human body. He talked about the divine light (which he called the supramental light or the paramatma light) coming down into the human body and transforming it. It is a natural part of the yoga, just as the awakening of the kundalini shakti is a natural part of the process of human spiritual transformation.

Aurobindo talked about the supramentalization of the material plane, and the transformation of the light of that plane into the light of the supramental. This same idea is found in the teachings of the Gnostic Christians who talk about the transformation of the light of the earthly realm into the light of heaven.

So I think the two men (Ramana Maharshi and Sri Aurobindo) are talking about two different things. Ramana Maharshi is talking about the process of dissolution of the being into pure bliss consciousness (the clear light of bliss) whereas Aurobindo is talking about the specific stages involved in the energetic transformation of the human vehicle as the spiritual process unfolds.

Christi

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