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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 4:00:38 PM
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| Amen to Divinefurball! That hit's the nail on the head. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 4:08:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by grihastha
Could either of you explain to me, as an interested party, what these controversies are all about vis a vis mahamudra and dzogchen? From my humble perspective, it would seem that enlightenment is fairly absolute: either you achieve it or you don't. Alwayson, are you saying that there are types of 'fake' enlightenment?
gri
Gri, There is no controversy. I'm trying to help Alwayson dispel his wrong view about the Dharmakaya. But don't follow what I say, Gri. Ask a lama. Otherwise, look into your own mind. Both is better. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 4:13:29 PM
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| In case anyone is interested, I strongly recommend everyone grab a copy of "Flight of the Garuda" by Shakbar, translation by Keith Dowman. It includes a text by Guru Padmasambhava and Garab Dorje which are root texts of the Dzogchen lineage. It is exactly the Mahamudra view, which is exactly the Dzogchen view, same. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 4:38:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Amen to Divinefurball! That hit's the nail on the head.
Lol Osel
I was the one who told him to read that book.
Since I am familiar with the natural state, why would I need a teacher?
You contradict yourself.
P.S. regarding your reply to grihastha, there is INDEED a controversy regarding Kagyu Mahamudra, whether you admit it or not. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 29 2009 4:55:51 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 4:53:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Amen to Divinefurball! That hit's the nail on the head.
Lol Osel
I was the one who told him to read that book.
Since I am familiar with the natural state, why would I need a teacher?
You contradict yourself.
P.S. there is INDEED a controversy regarding Kagyu Mahamudra, whether you admit it or not.
All dharma practitioners need a teacher otherwise will you be a prateyakabuddha. Even a 10th bhumi bodhisattva needs a teacher.
It's funny how you recommended the book, but he understands it and you don't. Life is like that.
"Familiar with the natural state". That is hardly enough. It's like saying you are familiar with gourmet food, because you already smelled it cooking in the kitchen.
Based on your responses, it's safe for you to presume that you know nothing about it. You are confusing the natural state with calm abiding. The natural state is not shamatha. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 4:56:54 PM
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Osel,
How can you possibly know my mindstream?
You just became a Buddhist, and now you know my mindstream?
Just a few months ago, you were talking about Jesus this and Jesus that, and cheezy meditation cd's LOL |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 29 2009 5:04:46 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 5:04:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Osel,
How can you possibly know my mindstream?
You just became a Buddhist, and now you know my mindstream,
Just a few months ago, you were talking about Jesus this and Jesus that.
Makes ya wonder, doesn't it. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 5:06:52 PM
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Are you actually suggesting you can read my mindstream?
The funny thing, is you don't know that in Dzogchen, the natural state is a fictional analog of the third vision of thogal. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 29 2009 5:18:41 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 5:08:23 PM
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| Now that I know there is a controversy, I feel a lot more confident. I'd hate to be liberated into conformism. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 5:09:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Osel,
How can you possibly know my mindstream?
You just became a Buddhist, and now you know my mindstream?
Just a few months ago, you were talking about Jesus this and Jesus that, and cheezy meditation cd's LOL
The beasts of the field have their dens and nests. The Son of Man has no where to lay his head.
The lineage teachings are powerful indeed. My retreat changed my life. Nothing like 112 hours of meditation in 7-days to change the quality of one's mind. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 29 2009 5:31:06 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 5:58:31 PM
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Osel,
Read my posts from about two years ago on Esanga, under "alwayson."
You will see that I thought I was enlightened. And I do talk quite a lot about the natural state, like you do now.
Its quite funny. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 29 2009 6:14:52 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 6:27:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Osel,
Read my posts from about two years ago on Esanga, under "alwayson."
You will see that I thought I was enlightened. And I do talk quite a lot about the natural state, like you do now.
Its quite funny.
Maybe you should go back and read them. I don't claim to be enlightened. You appear to have gotten sidetracked, which is the danger of self-study of high dharma, because the texts must be demonstrated by a teacher. I have teachers, full oral transmission, personal meditation instruction in retreat and mind transmission in retreat. The natural state is the meditation; it is something you must stay with for a long time. A one time glimpse is nothing special. Garab Dorje: 1) Direction introduction into the natural state; 2) Dispel all doubts about the natural state; 3) Continue confidently in the natural state.
Buddhahood arises from the natural state as a natural function of one's bodhisattva aspiration. As one purifies obscurations by releasing into the dharmakaya, one also actualizes the potential of the buddha-nature. Ultimately one fully purifies confusion, one obtains the common siddhis and the special accomplishment of omniscience and the ability to manifest anything according to the needs of sentient beings. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 29 2009 6:40:04 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 6:55:56 PM
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There is no such thing as a natural state.
It is a fiction. It is like bigfoot. Actually I think bigfoot is more real.
So it cannot produce Buddhahood.
Buddhahood needs to be caused via dependent origination. This is even how thogal works. But with thogal, they talk about it reversing dependent origination. This is the only Buddhahood obtained by self-liberation.
Even empowerments work by dependent origination.
I do not subscribe to your essence Mahamudra. Heck even one famous ancient Kagyu master admitted it was a scam. And there are numerous Sakya criticisms. You might as well practice Zen.
There is nothing more to say. Peace. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 29 2009 7:17:27 PM |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 7:00:08 PM
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Hi again, Konchok Osel Dorje and alwayson2. Since you both found those last quotes so usefull, I thought I might contribute a few more that seem related:
In this degenerate age, Great Perfection meditators, because of thier confusion about the essential points of ground, path, and result, are biased toward the particular meditation and view that they maintain; Thus liberation from the fetters of supposition is as rare as stars {at daytime}.....
If you become aware of the sudden arising of discursive thought and try to maintain the continuity of this, this is vipasyana straying into the condition. If you bind post-meditation with names, you will impede yourself, and thoughts and emotions will not be liberated as the dharmakaya. You should cut of this tendancy at the root.
In gnosis, unelaborated from the beginning, the terms, View, Meditation, and Activity, and grasping at them, are cleared away as being groundless. Not falling into the extreams of good, bad, or neutral discursive thought, you will not be a scholar who distinguishes arising and liberation.
As long as gnostic awareness does not stray from its station, there is no need for anything above this. Even if you meet with a hundred scholars and a thousand siddhas, ten thousand translators and panditas, a hundred thousand instructions, and ten million sciences, there will be no need to cut off doubt...This is it. This is it. END QUOTE
Kind Regards, dfb |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 7:33:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
There is no such thing as a natural state.
It is a fiction. It is like bigfoot. Actually I think bigfoot is more real.
So it cannot produce Buddhahood.
Buddhahood needs to be caused via dependent origination. This is even how thogal works. But with thogal, they talk about it reversing dependent origination. This is the only Buddhahood obtained by self-liberation.
Even empowerments work by dependent origination.
I do not subscribe to your essence Mahamudra. Heck even one famous ancient Kagyu master admitted it was a scam. And there are numerous Sakya criticisms. You might as well practice Zen.
There is nothing more to say. Peace.
I'm not asking you to subscribe to Kagyu teachings. You completely misunderstand the Vajrayana path.
There are all kinds of criticisms of every lineage by every lineage. They don't matter. Every lineage has some so-called master that blasts the lineage. That's just the nature of group dynamics. No serious dharma practitioner would EVER call another lineage a scam. Zen is not a scam. Hinduism is not a scam. The Western religions are not a scam. No path is a scam.
The Natural State is another word for Emptiness, the Dharmakaya. It is the cornerstone of Mahayana and Vajrayana. Dependent origination is the Buddha's teaching in the First Turning. There are volumes of texts, and personal experiences of recognized masters who affirm the Emptiness as a personal meditation. You claimed to be a Dzogchen practitioner, but all Dzogchen lamas affirm the Natural State. Buddhahood arises interdependent with teacher, student, teachings and six paramitas.
I see that you have made up your mind. At least you have your certainty. I'm just clarifying for posterity. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 9:03:41 PM
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I wrongly assumed you knew that Zen is pure sutra Mahayana.
Now with this new understanding, you will see I was saying that your special Mahamudra does not introduce anything special over the Mahayana sutras. And if it does not go beyond the Mahayana sutras...I am sure you can figure it out.
Thus I was not slamming Zen...for posterity purposes.
And the natural state is not synonymous with emptiness.
You only get direct experience with emptiness with third vision of thogal, or equivalent bhumi level, which is a combination of first and eight bhumi.
This is the reason why it is said to look for a Dzogchen teacher who has reached the third vision.
Now that I cleared up these loose ends, I am really gone...for a while...Muhahahaha |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 29 2009 10:19:34 PM |
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mikael
27 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 10:56:31 PM
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hi Dorje, I sent you an email :D
alwayson, you gotta understand brother that different schools have different points of view. no school of Buddhism really disagrees with each other. the view just may be different. like the view of Gelug is of the start of the path, more focused on the relative aspects such as Bodhicitta, while Nyingma and Dzogchen have the fruit as the path so thats why its called beyond cause and effect since from the eagle eye view there is no cause and effect because theres truly no self that causes anything. Sakyas tend to stay in the middle, and Kagyus I don't know. probably closer to Dzogchen view but also more relative as well.
so from the relative pov, yes Buddhahood is generated by cause and effect, but that doesn't mean that Buddhahood is a state thats created, manufactured. according to Dzogchen the natural state is always there, it is eternal and unmanufactured, it is beyond cause and effect. this is a different view. no argument.
and I really don't see anything wrong with Essence Mahamudra. Tibetans really don't disagree on much, each school is just a different approach to the same realization. they disagree on approaches but not on realization of a certain lineage. the only criticisms I've heard of Essence Mahamudra is that there aren't enough methods used to properly speed up the process by clearing the central channel. its regarded by some as a slow path because it lacks any gTummo or other practices. if the practitioner doesn't get the introduction, I think its a graded system of shamata and vipashyana. could be wrong. but anyway, rarely is Mahamudra taught separate from completion practices.
this is a good discussion on the topic of Dzogchen, Vajrayana and Mahamudra
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/in...wtopic=38200
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Edited by - mikael on Jul 29 2009 11:11:06 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 11:08:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
I wrongly assumed you knew that Zen is pure sutra Mahayana.
Now with this new understanding, you will see I was saying that your special Mahamudra does not introduce anything special over the Mahayana sutras. And if it does not go beyond the Mahayana sutras...I am sure you can figure it out.
Thus I was not slamming Zen...for posterity purposes.
And the natural state (which Dzogchen admits is fictitious) is not synonymous with emptiness. This is in every school.
You only get direct experience with emptiness with third vision of thogal, or equivalent bhumi level, which is a combination of first and eight bhumi.
Now that I cleared up these loose ends, I am really gone...for a while...Muhahahaha
You are putting words in my mouth and agreeing with yourself. Mahamudra and Dzogchen are the essence of the Vajrayana path. Sutra Mahayana do not have the lineage for transmission of the natural state. The Pith Instructions go way beyond the Sutras. Sutras are the Buddha's teachings about reality, they are not instructions. Zen practices close the senses. Vajrayana is open to all phenomena.
Dzogchen does not admit the natural state is fictitious. One would only assert that when one looks for the nature of mind, one cannot find anything, in not seeing, one realizes all is emptiness.<-Mahamudra Yet, there is a total presence <-Dzogchen. Thus, the natural state is neither existent or not existent. It is certainly NOT fictitious. Consider the Dharma Protectors next you time you utter that slander. You are accumulating very negative karma, really. Any Lama will tell you not to slander the teachings.
Whether you call the natural state Sem or Rigpa, all are empty. You clearly have no idea what the Vajrayana lineages think, especially the Nyingmapa lineage which holds the Dzogchen transmission. You need to read Longchenpa, Garab Dorje and the other lineage gurus in Nyingmapa to clear up your wrong view. Read the Autobiography of Shakbar to learn about the life of a true Dzogchen yogi of recent history. Read Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche's works to understand the modern Nyingmapa lama's writings.
I bow to the Dharma Protectors and the root and lineage gurus. Please forgive me for revealing this text, which I feel must be done to destroy wrong views.
From the highest Dzogchen text, Yeshe Lama on the Third Vision of Thogal:
quote:
Vision of the Full Extent of Awarenes:
Third, the vision of the full extent of awareness is that, without any distinctions concerning the potential of the nature of phenomena--like a face and it's appearance in a mirror--the nature of awareness is primordially perfect as three kayas.
From a high Mahamudra text, Lamp of Mahamudra on the Third Yoga of One Taste:
quote:
You understand that designations and distinctions of dualistic attributes such as samsara and nirvana, appearance and emptiness, development and completion, relative and absolute, and so forth are all of one taste in mahamudra.
That actually does settle the matter. As you can see, these stages are IDENTICAL. But wait, I'll give you more of Yeshe Lama on the Third Vision of Thogal:
quote:
Throughout all three times, the noble qualities of the sambhogakaya are perfected as the appearances of thepath. It is in this way that one comes to realize that this is the ultimate meaning of the full extent of awareness at this juncture in time. Other philosophical tenets state that, since the essence of the sugatas--the qualities of kayas and wisdom--is obtainable as something that exists, there is expectation. Their attempts to pursue a goal that leads to individual achievements such as gaining the major and minor marks with physical features are predictable yet inconspicuous to them, like a thief. Conversely, this wisdom intent of the supreme king of all vehicles is not only inconceivable, it is the greatest marvel! Those who are incapable of accurately revealing this philosophy will be unable to reveal any genuine meaning, except for meaninglessly praising the way appearances arise. The loquacious speech of those who are only partially familiar with the scriptures, yet full of intellectual knowledge about many inauthentic paths, produces the contributing circumstances of mockery. This occurs through the combination of both blurting and being careless. Therefore, in order to proclaim this secret vehicle in the Snow Land of Tibet, let it be known beyond a trace of doubt this philosophy is only that of the Sovereign of Conquerors, Drimed Ödzer!
Then it gets technical about the appearances of the siddhis and the kayas. Mahamudra texts do this too. I don't have time to type it all.
quote:
Similarly, when the mind reaches the full extent, the conceptual mind, mental activity and consciousness all vanish, leaving only the stainless space of phenomena... The appearances of the mind are perfectly pure; and since the mind of emptiness is pure, there is master over the boundless gateways of pajna and samadhi... We assert that awareness--including the subtle wind of motion--is perfectly pure and that the appearance of the exhaustion of the mind and phenomena occurs in the immutable resting place of the inner space of original purity. That is why a practitioner realizing this knows that philosophies are the creation of the intellect and that disputations are resolved within the inconceivable nature of phenomena. When phenomena reach the stage of exhaustion, even one's own philosophy falls apart! At teh same time, even the upadesha of the guru vanishes, the limitations of view, meditation and conduct are empty, and there is not vision of the dharmakaya. Since the continuum of kayas and wisdom has ceased, there are no buddhas or sentient beings. In short, nothing whatsoever remains, nothing has gone, and nothing will ever return. Thus, one must simply rest in the wisdom intent of the Middle Way of nonabiding in any extreme
The Third Vision of Thogal is Mahamudra's Third Yoga of One Taste. Dzogchen and Mahamudra are exactly the same thing.
Mikael, Mahamudra is not more intellectual than Dzogchen. Dzogchen is not highest. Mahamudra and Dzogchen and Chod are exact same. Essence Mahamudra is for practitioners who don't need tummo. It's slow for some, but faster for others. In the natural state, the kundalini naturally rises and ecstatic energy bursts up with no effort at all; it depends on one's faith, realization and trust in the guru's transmission. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 29 2009 11:46:00 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 12:13:53 AM
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Mikael thanks for the link. Alwayson, I figured you out. You want to be Namdrol at E-Sangha. He makes the Sakya lineage sound like it's the best. In fact, I can't tell the difference between him and you, except he apparently knows detailed scholarly knowledge. I also understand why you think I should find a Sakya teacher. I also now understand why you disagree with Nyingmapa's Dzogchen's teachings. The Sakyas have their own view of Mahamudra and Dzogchen. Now I get why you and I will never ever agree. Namdro's scholarly debates about the origins of this and that practice from Jnanakirti and Sakya Pandita don't me squat to me. All his talk about empowerments and tantric steps is not based on his own experience in retreat. It is based on his reading of the texts, like yours. Milarepa gave long teachings about avoiding scholars on the path. You cling to scholarly debates, instead of just resting in the natural state of purity. I read about and follow yogis. The Kagyu teachings have their origin first with the King of Samadhi Sutra, then the Uttara Tantra, then the Gangaha Mahamudra Upadesa, then the Oral Instructions. My experience does not depend on textual analysis. It depends on faith in my guru. My use of texts is just illustrative. They are not important, except for Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation, the Gangaha Mahamudra Upadesha and Hundred Thousand Songs of Milarepa, because that's all my guru uses. The other teachings come from demonstration.
Thanks to Mikael's link I have a better understanding of how all the lineages break up the stages. It's also clear to me after reading all the e-sangha explanations that I've received the 4th Empowerment. I received pointing out instructions very early on. Creation and Completion stages are combined in Guru Yoga, which involves deity visualization and is tantric. I received a mind transmission in retreat which blew me away. The blessings of this practice cause the blissful kundalini experiences to arise spontaneously without effort. But the bliss is not important.
My path is Refuge, Pointing Out Instructions, Transmission of Upadesha, Guru Yoga, Vajrasattva, Mandala and Essence Mahamudra. No long prostrations, Six Yogas, Tummo or anything else. Mainly Guru Yoga which is tantric and Mahamudra which is unelaborated. Because I was given detailed and repeated pointing out instructions, not a graded approach of shamatha and vipashyana, Drubpon Rinpoche taught me Essence Mahamudra. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 30 2009 03:40:06 AM |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 08:44:35 AM
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I'm not surprised this debate finally came down to e-sangha. That place is a real poisoned chalice as far as a free mingling of Buddhist thought and approach is concerned.
But thanks everyone for a lively and stimulating discussion, as they say... I'm particularly grateful for the clarifications re Dzogchen and Mahamudra. Thanks for the dharma friendliness, however rancorous!
Emaho!
gri |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 09:30:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by grihastha
I'm not surprised this debate finally came down to e-sangha. That place is a real poisoned chalice as far as a free mingling of Buddhist thought and approach is concerned.
But thanks everyone for a lively and stimulating discussion, as they say... I'm particularly grateful for the clarifications re Dzogchen and Mahamudra. Thanks for the dharma friendliness, however rancorous!
Emaho!
gri
It only seems rancorous in writing. I smile and laugh all the while. I avoid e-sangha like the plague. I see why this discussion was like this. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 12:13:01 PM
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Osel I sent you an email
By the way, the only reason why I recommended Sakya, is that their Mahamudra is pure anuttarayoga only.
That is just fact, whether you accept it or not. It has nothing to do with Esangha. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 30 2009 1:40:07 PM |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 12:59:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
There is no such thing as a natural state.
Hear, hear, though I assume you meant that there is no such thing as THE natural state, ie a reified state we have to seek and be introduced to. There is a natural state, but it doesn't need mentioning because we are always already in it. How could we be otherwise? It is the construct that there is an unnatural state, and therefore that we have to change and find some other state, which leads us all into this game. It is an expression of unhappiness, of alienation, of not wanting to be ordinary, of our wanting to be special.
Our constructs of gods and states and specialness, and our projection of them onto others whom we then follow, can be useful, since if they are skilfully designed, they can over time dissolve our imaginary self-separation and allow us to realise we were ok all along.
You all know this anyway, I guess, you guys just got hooked up on the fun of debate, and why not?! It was fun to watch too. Thank you all!
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 1:40:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Osel I sent you an email
By the way, the only reason why I recommended Sakya, is that their Mahamudra is pure anuttarayoga only.
That is just fact, whether you accept it or not. It has nothing to do with Esangha.
I am not interested in pure anuttarayoga. I am interested in the blessings of the Whispered Lineage and the Precious Guru Buddha which is inseparably merged with my body, speech and mind.
Precise textual accuracy is not important to me. Milarepa is illiterate and attained buddhahood in dependence on his faith in the guru and pith instructions and his own profound experience. I follow that lineage and that model.
Several scholars from the Sakya lineage threw dirt in Milarepa's face and called him a devil and heretic. He debated by walking through walls, bouncing boulders around on his finger, reading their minds and exposing their crimes. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 30 2009 1:48:41 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 2:05:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chinna
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
There is no such thing as a natural state.
Hear, hear, though I assume you meant that there is no such thing as THE natural state, ie a reified state we have to seek and be introduced to. There is a natural state, but it doesn't need mentioning because we are always already in it. How could we be otherwise? It is the construct that there is an unnatural state, and therefore that we have to change and find some other state, which leads us all into this game. It is an expression of unhappiness, of alienation, of not wanting to be ordinary, of our wanting to be special.
Our constructs of gods and states and specialness, and our projection of them onto others whom we then follow, can be useful, since if they are skilfully designed, they can over time dissolve our imaginary self-separation and allow us to realise we were ok all along.
You all know this anyway, I guess, you guys just got hooked up on the fun of debate, and why not?! It was fun to watch too. Thank you all!
Mind is forever dharmakaya. It is always already the natural state. The confused projections of ignorance and attachment generate a false sense of reality, an illusion. Because the illusion is not real, there is nothing to put down, or release. Based on the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, specifically the inner Buddha-nature, once we rest in the natural state, the qualities of a buddha naturally arise from our love, bodhicitta (compassion), and altruistic aspirations. These qualities are not projects they are the reflection of the desires of suffering sentient beings to be happy and liberated from suffering. |
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Buddhism, The Rainbow Body and Enlightenment
