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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2009 :  2:11:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I am sorry, but there is a major untruth here, so I must clarify for the bystanders.

Thanks for your patience.

Essence Mahamudra was created AFTER Milarepa. Milarepa himself used anuttarayoga. So to follow in Milarepa's example, you would use anuttarayoga.

Kagyus do indeed have anuttarayoga apart from their "essence Mahamudra." The only thing is that they do not teach it to Westerners.

Sakyas have NOTHING to do with the above facts.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 30 2009 2:28:20 PM
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divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2009 :  3:12:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi all, some more helpfull words from Jigme Lingpa:

Because objects of knowledge are unelaborated and do not manifest as substantial things, it is not possible to estimate the capability of changable mindstreams.

He who discourages others, saying that they are not of a liniage that can be of benifit, makes those with the qualities of scripture and realization lose heart.

And yet the sun's rays of dependant origination, which bring together the true condition and the field of accumulations, will never be the object of negation for anyone. With this the secret yogins reduce the weariness in thier hearts...

Fortunate ones who are gathered here, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers: maintain your own spacious state in a relaxed way, the union of gnosis and emptiness in which there is no attachment to samsara, and set out together toward liberation in the original grounds expanse.

Even this vajra song is like the play of optical illusions. END QUOTE

With Best Wishes To All, dfb
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2009 :  3:41:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

I am sorry, but there is a major untruth here, so I must clarify for the bystanders.

Thanks for your patience.

Essence Mahamudra was created AFTER Milarepa. Milarepa himself used anuttarayoga. So to follow in Milarepa's example, you would use anuttarayoga.

Kagyus do indeed have anuttarayoga apart from their "essence Mahamudra." The only thing is that they do not teach it to Westerners.

Sakyas have NOTHING to do with the above facts.



That is partly correct. I just spoke with my Lama for clarifications. I am learning Essence Mahamudra. It does come from Milarepa. Essence Mahmudra is distinct because one has abbreviated ngondro. One may practice Mahamudra after receiving the Pith Instructions. There is a mind transmission at the Guru Yoga retreat. There is a Deity Yoga component which comes later. However, it is indeed taught to Westerners. At least it will be in my case.

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 30 2009 3:46:18 PM
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2009 :  07:12:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply

[/quote]

Mind is forever dharmakaya. It is always already the natural state. The confused projections of ignorance and attachment generate a false sense of reality, an illusion. Because the illusion is not real, there is nothing to put down, or release. Based on the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, specifically the inner Buddha-nature, once we rest in the natural state, the qualities of a buddha naturally arise from our love, bodhicitta (compassion), and altruistic aspirations. These qualities are not projects they are the reflection of the desires of suffering sentient beings to be happy and liberated from suffering.
[/quote]

Thank you for your translation into 'Buddhese', but the point I am so ineffectively making is that these technical traditional languages are entirely constructs, and that the only thing that matters is our own experience. Getting hooked into the special technical languages, and the infinite variety of schools' disputes within them, brings enjoyable debate but also ceaseless confusion. They are only ever a reflection of what we seek, and even more confusingly they mean different things to us at different stages on the path (if they didn't they wouldn't be much use to us). When our seeking ends, so the special languages fall away. We may still use them to help others, but we will be aware of their capacity to confuse and obfuscate. If we are not so aware, we risk using them only for our own power.

I am not being critical, because it has been a highly stimulating technical debate, and no doubt enjoined for all the right reasons by a group who share a similar level of understanding. I am just entering a note of caution about how important or otherwise the fine distinctions may be, as the temperature of the debate rises!

'If you meet the Buddha, kill him' as they say.
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2009 :  10:24:37 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Buddha, Dharma, Sangha



If you meet a Buddha give him offerings and dedicate yourself to the liberation of all suffering beings.

The mind is naturally clear and free. Attachments cloud and confine it. Attachments arise from our confusion about our real nature which is like space. Emotionally holding on to some substance causes all our problems and actually generates our physical world. Because this has been the case since time (which has no measurable beginning), love, compassion and the space-like nature of mind are an inseparable and indistinguishable unity. The activities of the Buddhas of past, present and future has no beginning or end either. The joy, bliss, love, compassion and space-like awareness are all the same liberating essence within us all. That nature is one with the method and the view; emptiness is all. All forms, perceiveables, knowables and concepts are emptiness. To realize that truth through the method of that truth is the result of that truth, linked, together, an inseparable all-encompassing and all-pervasive whole. And that realization requires the assistance of the inner and outer teacher, the inner and outer community and the essence (the dharma).

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 31 2009 1:12:15 PM
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Aug 02 2009 :  6:36:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
There is no mind and all is mind. There is no Buddha and there is only Buddha, what could possibly be excluded, who could possibly exclude themselves? All these words merge into each other. So what is to be said and why, other than to remove the illusions of distinction?

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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  12:52:27 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't like to do this, because I am not a teacher.

But with that disclaimer, I will give the following powerful method, that I invented to realize the natural state (self-realization in neo-Advaita):

Basically walk around and focus intensely on mundane visual and audio details in the present moment. Examples are wrinkles in people's clothes or a baby crying in the mall. Or the color of the toothbrush handle and the sound of the water faucet. Even the cracks in the sidewalk, or the sounds of a passing airplane.

Now the second part is to freely use the mind, as long as all thoughts have absolute relevence to the present moment.

Keep this up strictly for all waking hours for minimum two days.

(After two days, you can realize that people ONLY exist as deluded thoughtforms in your own mind. But this realization is somewhat "advanced", so don't push it.)

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 04 2009 02:54:55 AM
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  07:40:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

I don't like to do this, because I am not a teacher.

But with that disclaimer, I will give the following powerful method, that I invented to realize the natural state (self-realization in neo-Advaita):

Basically walk around and focus intensely on mundane visual and audio details in the present moment. Examples are wrinkles in people's clothes or a baby crying in the mall. Or the color of the toothbrush handle and the sound of the water faucet. Even the cracks in the sidewalk, or the sounds of a passing airplane.

Now the second part is to freely use the mind, as long as all thoughts have absolute relevence to the present moment.

Keep this up strictly for all waking hours for minimum two days.

(After two days, you can realize that people ONLY exist as deluded thoughtforms in your own mind. But this realization is somewhat "advanced", so don't push it.)



And the moment you see that all is 'deluded thoughtforms', you can also see that these words mean nothing at all, because if all is 'thought' as against 'objective reality', then there is no 'objective reality' which is what would be needed to give meaning to the concept 'thought'. NOT-TWO! The mind, the discrimination machine, is gone, including the initial discrimination 'I-other'. So does anything exist or not? Who knows. Form is emptiness, emptiness form.
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  11:28:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

I don't like to do this, because I am not a teacher.

But with that disclaimer, I will give the following powerful method, that I invented to realize the natural state (self-realization in neo-Advaita):

Basically walk around and focus intensely on mundane visual and audio details in the present moment. Examples are wrinkles in people's clothes or a baby crying in the mall. Or the color of the toothbrush handle and the sound of the water faucet. Even the cracks in the sidewalk, or the sounds of a passing airplane.

Now the second part is to freely use the mind, as long as all thoughts have absolute relevence to the present moment.

Keep this up strictly for all waking hours for minimum two days.

(After two days, you can realize that people ONLY exist as deluded thoughtforms in your own mind. But this realization is somewhat "advanced", so don't push it.)



This is just thinking, and will not lead you to the nature of mind. To take the innate mind of clear light as the path requires direct introduction and pointing out by the Lama.
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  12:02:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
your confusing my method with the result.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 04 2009 12:11:56 PM
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  12:07:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Alwayson.....

Isn't your method basically "mindfulness"? Forgive me if I am oversimplifying things here....

Love,
Carson

Edited by - CarsonZi on Aug 04 2009 12:08:40 PM
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  12:11:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
simple mindfullness would not have all the elements I describe here

And you have to do what I said with 110% intensity, like your life depended on it

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 04 2009 12:35:22 PM
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  12:33:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Well your method is exactly how I live my everyday life and how I was taught "mindfulness". Was never was told it was "advanced" mindfulness and not "simple mindfulness".

Love,
Carson

Edited by - CarsonZi on Aug 04 2009 12:34:52 PM
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  12:36:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yet you say you are doing it everyday. After two days of doing what I said, you won't need to do it anymore.

My method is only for two days, and then you are done as long as you did it really intensely for those two days.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 04 2009 12:42:39 PM
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  12:44:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Haha. What happens after 48 hours of your method Alwayson? I have been doing this everyday for almost 1 year now....and I don't "need" to do it as much as it "does itself" now. But it took more then 2 days for me

Love,
Carson
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  12:45:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
well then Carson you are all set, if you realize that time literally does not exist.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 04 2009 12:49:14 PM
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  12:49:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
All is Now....it's Truth....for me

Love,
Carson
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  1:17:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
And if time does not exist nothing else can exist.

You would know that yourself only exists as a deluded thoughtform in your own mind. And other people similarly exist only as deluded thoughtforms in your own mind.

Time and people do exist but only as empty concepts in the mind (sunyata).

For example, if you think of your mother right now, she only exists as a flawed packet of memories in the mind. This packet also contains fictitious projections into the nonexistant future.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Aug 04 2009 1:24:14 PM
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  1:41:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

And if time does not exist nothing else can exist.


Why not? Must there be awareness of awareness in order for awareness to exist? Or is not the awareness of the awareness really just the awareness in and of itself?

quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

You would know that yourself only exists as a deluded thoughtform in your own mind. And other people similarly exist only as deluded thoughtforms in your own mind.


There are as many realities as there are Beings. None are any more valid then any other. "My" reality is that This is reality.

quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

Time and people do exist but only as empty concepts in the mind (sunyata).


Depends on your definitions of "time" and "people".

Love,
Carson

P.S. You konw I'm just screwing with you right?
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  1:52:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
P.S.S> Just so that you don't feel I am "brushing you off"....

I said "All is Now....it's Truth....for me" because this is not Truth for all "people"......It is Truth from "my" perception (no actual "me", you are right), but I felt I should qualify saying this by saying "for me" because this may not be so for All (yet?).

Love,
Carson

Edited by - CarsonZi on Aug 04 2009 1:55:30 PM
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  2:07:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

I don't like to do this, because I am not a teacher.

But with that disclaimer, I will give the following powerful method, that I invented to realize the natural state (self-realization in neo-Advaita):

Basically walk around and focus intensely on mundane visual and audio details in the present moment. Examples are wrinkles in people's clothes or a baby crying in the mall. Or the color of the toothbrush handle and the sound of the water faucet. Even the cracks in the sidewalk, or the sounds of a passing airplane.

Now the second part is to freely use the mind, as long as all thoughts have absolute relevence to the present moment.

Keep this up strictly for all waking hours for minimum two days.

(After two days, you can realize that people ONLY exist as deluded thoughtforms in your own mind. But this realization is somewhat "advanced", so don't push it.)



This is just thinking, and will not lead you to the nature of mind. To take the innate mind of clear light as the path requires direct introduction and pointing out by the Lama.



May I assume that you are speaking for your chosen tradition? The guru is inner and outer, and there is ultimately no distinction between these two. In truth, some will need an external guru, some will meet their guru and experience initiation in the subtle realms, and for some the guru will have no identifiable form.

And everything is 'just thinking', isn't it, from one penultimate perspective? I have no doubt that Alwayson's method can show just this. To really see that there are only thoughts, that all is thought, and therefore that there are no thoughts, is a profound yoga, an awakening to the inner guru, the natural state.

chinna
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Konchok Ösel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2009 :  9:14:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ösel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Chinna, Sure, one can rely on the inner guru, and outer guru may be represented by the whole universe. But this is the slow path.

It's not that some will need a guru and others won't. It's that some will be lucky enough to meet a wise guru, and others won't. That's just karma. Every, every, every great master of any tradition had a physical human guru. I guarantee you that any so-called master who claimed enlightenment from visions and dreams is not a master. You are free to believe what you like. I live in the human realm.

However, thinking and following thoughts goes nowhere. One must encounter methods to transcend thoughts. For example, alwayson describes bringing to bear thoughts that have relevance to the present moment. Whether a thing is relevant or irrelevant is a conceptual judgment. The conceptual mind is the obscuration. You cannot use an obscuration to reveal clarity. One must one way or another realize the ground of mind. That can happen spontaneously. But the fruition of enlightenment will not happen until the solitary realizer meets the methods from the guru.

What you describe as a profound yoga is not a profound yoga. Everything is not just thinking. Thinking is illusory. Which means there is a reality. To discover the reality you have to stop thinking and view the ground of the mind.

If you said everything is awareness, you'd be closer to the mark.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Aug 05 2009 :  03:14:27 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi all,

I think the Buddha just left the grove.

Anyone noticed?

Christi
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gumpi

United Kingdom
546 Posts

Posted - Aug 05 2009 :  06:30:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit gumpi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I've tried to follow this thread but don't come here often as i see the same stuff being said endlessly. What is real and what is illusory? etc etc ad infinitum.

These are just words. Words, words and more words.

If the self doesn't exist and other people are your thoughtforms, that hardly makes logical sense does it? In reality, the Self, the little self, and the rest of the universe and other people DO exist. Nothing is an illusion, just appearances which seem delusory. And the test of a "realisation" that everything is illusory is a power test - go jump off a building if you think you can fly. Make it is a very tall building, say the Empire State Building. Don't forget to bring a parachute.
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Akasha

421 Posts

Posted - Aug 05 2009 :  07:42:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha

[quote]Originally posted by Christi

Hi all,

I think the Buddha just left the grove.

Anyone noticed?

Christi



Or the grove just left the Buddha.
No..the grove is Buddha.

-Who is the grove?
-- Buddha?
What is Buddha?- the grove

Hope that clears things up.


Edited by - Akasha on Aug 05 2009 07:49:35 AM
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