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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 4:49:16 PM
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| Nothing can make Buddhism fall apart. The Dharmakaya is the nature of your mind whether you see it or not. Your karmic obscurations (lack of ripeness due to confusion) prevent your ability recognize it. The Natural State is just that, mind's actual real mode of being; its nature. That nature can never be defiled or obscured; you either are or are not confused. Alwayson is confused and needs the pointing out instructions and Guru Yoga. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 4:56:23 PM
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The Dharmakaya is INDEED our own mindstreams, but without the cognitive obscuration.
How do you get rid of the cognitive obscuration?
Only through kundalini and thogal
Its funny that you think you are the only one to have realized the natural state.
I realized the natural state 100% more than two years ago by playing with various insight techniques, some of my own invention which I later found to be real techniques. I never even did any seated meditation, so I knew I discovered something precious. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 28 2009 5:18:59 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 5:27:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Osel,
you don't seem to understand that all schools recognize Dzogchen. The Gelugs were always secret practitioners of thogal from the beginning. Have you not heard of the murals of Lukhang?
Sakyas have a secret thogal like technique they do not write down. It is part of their lamdre.
Secondly, if you don't need tummo...
a)how come it exists?
b) how come the Milarepa obtained buddhahood by it and became the model for all kagyu practitioners?
The sad thing is that you think those four yogas, Non-distraction, Non-Discrimination, One Taste, Non-Meditation, is the sum total of the mahamudra path, when actually that is a beginner text. Heck it even says in the back of it, that you need tummo. Jeebusss!!
Not only that, you equate it to thogal.
Not only that, you still don't seem to understand the natural state is not a thing. It has nothing to do with action. Abiding in the natural state is a non-action. It cannot produce Buddhahood.
Now it's fun.
Okay, All Vajrayana schools recognize Dzogchen and Mahamudra. That's true. If you want original Mahamudra, you need Kagyu. Original Dzogchen, Nyingmapa.
a) Tummo is a supplementary practice on the path. Swift progress in accumulation of wisdom requires skillful means. Tummo is just one. Remember, not all practitioners are equal. Some only need the pointing out instructions and proceed instantaneously to buddhahood. There are different classes of students, instantaneous, skipping the grades and gradual. Tummo is a method of attaining a powerful sense of well-being, which is shamatha. The pointing out instructions provide the means for vipashyana in that excellent tummo shamatha.
b) Milarepa practiced tummo early in his career, along with Deity Yoga and many others. He kept Guru Yoga and Mahamudra in his later days. He achieved enlightenment by Karma Mudra with the Five Long Life Sisters who are now the Dharma Protectors of the Kagyu Lineage. He regarded karmamudra as inferior to Mahamudra. He gave karmamudra to Rechungpa, his lesser disciple. He gave Essence Mahamudra to Gampopa which included tummo.
The Fourth Yoga of Mahamudra, Non-Meditation is buddhahood. If you are referring to Clarifying the Natural State, by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, then you will see that each Yoga has three stages. The 3rd phase of the 4th Yoga is complete Buddhahood.
I never said the natural state was a thing or an action. Non-action is the "action" of the View, Practice, Action. The View is emptiness. The Practice is resting in the unelaborated stated without accepting or rejecting.
Thogal is not a doing either. It is a non-doing (View, Practice, Action) in certain lighting conditions. It too is a way to return to the natural state.
Buddhahood is not produced. It is not created. Your obscurations are produced by your confusion. The Vajrayana practices purify those. Once they are fully purified using the skillful means, one returns to the natural state, Buddhahood. To become a Nirmanakaya, etc., is based on one's motivation and is a spontaneous response to the needs of sentient beings. Because the Natural State and the Dharmakaya are the same, confusion is simply liberated. The Teacher is a reflection of our own aspirations, without Samsara, there would be no need.
The Four Yogas are not the sum total of the Mahamudra path; they are the essence of it. All the other practices supplement, and speed up progress on the path. Nothing is produced by they practices. As Yogani says it, pressure wash away your obstructions. In the Buddhist sense, these practices all use galactic forces to annihilate obscurations, the maras, wrong views and obstacles.
There is nothing beyond the natural state, which is why, if you skip to tummo or thogal before you have stabilized the natural state to some degree, after practicing Guru Yoga, Vajrasattva and Mandala, you will be wasting your time. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 5:38:02 PM
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Osel,
There must be some delay, because I deleted that post and created a new one.
Please address this new post. It should be above your last reply. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 28 2009 5:46:39 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 5:48:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
The Dharmakaya is INDEED our own mindstreams, but without the cognitive obscuration.
How do you get rid of the cognitive obscuration?
Only through kundalini and thogal
Its funny that you think you are the only one to have realized the natural state.
I realized the natural state 100% more than two years ago by playing with various insight techniques, some of my own invention which I later found to be real techniques. I never even did any seated meditation, so I knew I discovered something precious.
I never said I realized the natural state. I claim no accomplishment. Whatever I have realized is not deep. I have many obscurations that bedevil me. I ask for the blessings of the Guru Buddha and the Dharma Protectors.
You don't get rid of cognitive obscurations ONLY through Thogal or tummo. You ONLY get rid of them as self-liberation in the Natural State. In the Natural State, you KNOW all appearances are just illusory displays, and do not hesitate to release them back into the Dharmakaya. Thogal and tummo provide an experience of a drastic separation of the natural state from appearances so that one can continue in the natural state without doubt. One's experience of the radiance of the natural state, gives one conviction in the illusory quality of appearances. The key point of these practices is to end clinging to the physical body. Ultimately one has conviction that appearances are nothing other than Dharmakaya.
Thogal, tummo, karmamudra, vajrasattva, mandala, etc., etc., are all just means of pressing the fast forward button; or the high pressure wash, vs. the regular rinse cycle. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 28 2009 7:03:40 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 7:02:07 PM
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I think I pinpointed your confusion.
You think that Buddhahood is obtained by self-liberation into the natural state. This is only true of thogal. This is why Dzogchen was banned from Nalanda monastery in ancient times, because Dzogchen claims to be a vehicle beyond causes.
Buddhahood is actually caused in every other teaching besides Dzogchen, viz a vis buddhist cause and effect.
So unless you are practicing thogal, you cannot speak of Buddhahood being self-liberation.
Moreover, the self-liberation of Dzogchen is into the five wisdom lights (of thogal), not merely the nature of the mind. This is also why Dzogchen claims to be beyond mind. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 28 2009 7:54:42 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 8:07:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
I think I pinpointed your confusion.
You think that Buddhahood is obtained by self-liberation into the natural state. This is only true of thogal. This is why Dzogchen was banned from Nalanda monastery in ancient times, because Dzogchen claims to be a vehicle beyond causes.
Buddhahood is actually caused in every other teaching besides Dzogchen, viz a vis buddhist cause and effect.
So unless you are practicing thogal, you cannot speak of Buddhahood being self-liberation.
Moreover, the self-liberation of Dzogchen is into the five wisdom lights (of thogal), not merely the nature of the mind. This is also why Dzogchen claims to be beyond mind.
You pinpointed your confusion. Both Mahamudra and Dzogchen and Chod and all other systems dealing with the Natural State are the same. Self-liberation in the Dharmakaya. The five wisdom lights are metaphors for purified afflictive emotions and the corresponding five wisdoms. Just like there's no lasso. These are symbolic of the natural state and the seeing. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 8:38:07 PM
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The five wisdom lights are not metaphors. You see them visually with the eyes during thogal practice. They are the key to the self-liberation of Dzogchen.
If Dzogchen is same as Mahamudra, why was it banned from Nalanda?
Why is thogal so unlike anything else?
Please reread my post and actually address my points without diverting the topic to the natural state.
Noone is arguing with you about the self-liberating nature of the natural state into the dharmakaya/mindstream.
And I even agree the natural state is the same between Dzogchen, Chod, Mahamudra.
Buddhahood itself though is NOT obtained by self-liberation, except in Dzogchen. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 28 2009 9:34:43 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 11:10:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
The five wisdom lights are not metaphors. You see them visually with the eyes during thogal practice. They are the key to the self-liberation of Dzogchen.
If Dzogchen is same as Mahamudra, why was it banned from Nalanda?
Why is thogal so unlike anything else?
Please reread my post and actually address my points without diverting the topic to the natural state.
Noone is arguing with you about the self-liberating nature of the natural state into the dharmakaya/mindstream.
And I even agree the natural state is the same between Dzogchen, Chod, Mahamudra.
Buddhahood itself though is NOT obtained by self-liberation, except in Dzogchen.
My lama is giving me a detailed lecture on this.
I don't know why Dzogchen it was banned from Nalanda, politics probably; perhaps because some Dzogchen practioners think Thogal is the highest practice. Careful reading of Yeshe Lama and Clarifying the Natural State proves that Four Visions and Four Yogas are analogous. The stages are analogues.
Your statement,
quote:
Moreover, the self-liberation of Dzogchen is into the five wisdom lights (of thogal), not merely the nature of the mind. This is also why Dzogchen claims to be beyond mind.
assumes there is mere natural state which is surpassed by the five wisdom lights. That is not the case. "Wisdom lights" are the radiance of the Dharmakaya, aka, the Sambhogakaya. The Sambhogakaya is a mere reflection of the Dharmakaya. Though, in essence all is Dharmakaya. All is emptiness.
Buddhahood=motivation+fully purified obscurations.
The highest practitioner don't need any breath yoga, visualization, tummo, thogal, because they take the dharmakaya as the path. All the 88 Mahasiddhas were like this.
Medium and low level practitioner need techniques like tummo, karma mudra, thogal, etc.
From the Gangaha Mahamudra
quote:
“If the beings of inferior intellect cannot abide in the natural state of continuity, engage the crucial wind technique and cast away the awareness from the crown of the head. With yogic gaze and mental fixation, etc., discipline the mind until the awareness remains in its natural state of continuity. The union of primordial wisdom and bliss will arise if you seek a consort. Engaged in the union of method and wisdom from blessings.”
Crucial wind technique = tummo. Yogic gaze = Thogal. Consort = Karma Mudra.
Karma Mudra also states it is the supreme method and there are also visions of lights. Karma Mudra is a low level practice and is similar to Hindu Yoga, to experience the non-essence of desire which is a course, crude practice. Tummo is analogous to karmamudra; one visualizes consort practice in kumbhaka and attains strong happiness and warmth.
quote:
The supreme king of all meditations is the meditation that is without boundary, deep and spacious.
Mahamudra = Dharmakaya = Supreme king of meditations. Dzogchen is the same.
Thogal is the means to attain the view of the Great Perfection. It is an introductory practice on a Dzogchen retreat along with tummo.
Kundalini, Thogal, etc., are misunderstood to be the highest practices. The highest practice is the blessings of the interdependent relationship of master, student and sangha, Guru Yoga and the King of Meditations. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 12:11:38 AM
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"assumes there is mere natural state which is surpassed by the five wisdom lights."
Wisdom lights exist, and they are beyond the mind, as the mind is merely a wind in the body. Thats a crucial point you don't seem to understand.
The mind is simply a wind in the body. Wisdom lights shine out from the heart chakra into the eyes. Thats why trechod i.e. mental relaxation is necessary. The mind wind obscures the vision analougous to fog.
The mind being a wind, is also how kundalni type practices work. You basically dislodge the mind wind...so to speak
"The highest practitioner don't need any breath yoga, visualization, tummo, thogal, because they take the dharmakaya as the path. All the 88 Mahasiddhas were like this."
In all Dzogchen practice texts, which I have read many, it says that high capacity practitioners uses thogal, medium capacity uses bardo, and low capacity uses phowa. It is cliche. You KNOW this is true.
Stop suggesting you can become a Buddha simply by abiding in the natural state. It may be true, but only at DEATH, will you obtain Buddahood. This would be a MEDIUM level approach according to Dzogchen, not a high level. High level is becoming Buddha while alive via thogal. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 29 2009 12:45:17 AM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 03:00:04 AM
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My high is your low and vice versa. What you call wisdom lights beyond mind, I call the continuous radiance of mind's real nature. What you call a wind, I call attachment. What you call the heart chakra, I call ultimate bodhichitta. What you call the eyes, I call the unity of form and Dharmakaya.
Gampopa achieved Buddhahood in life with Guru Yoga and Mahamudra. So did Phagmo Drupa, Lord Jigten Sumgon and thousands of other Kagyu Lamas.
I suggest you read Shakbar Rinpoche's "Flight of the Garuda." Of course you should practice Thogal if that what you want, but you shouldn't do it until you receive the oral instructions in person, prior to entering retreat. You won't get the real teachings from a book. Carry on. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 04:19:50 AM
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Hi all,
There was a time when the Buddha was alive when he was living in a region of northern India with many monks. The monks began to argue with each other, over different philosophical aspects of the Buddha's teachings. The monks broke into two factions, with one faction becoming attached to one point of view, and another faction holding firmly to another point of view. They bickered amongst each other constantly every day, trying to be the one's who were right.
The Buddha asked them to stop fighting amongst themselves explaining to them that they would not find peace and truth through pointless debate. But the monks did not listen and carried on arguing, gradually becoming more and more attached to their own viewpoint. Again the Buddha asked them to stop it, but they were not interested in anything he had to say. So the Buddha said: "O.K. I'm leaving", and he left with a few of his monks. Most remained behind to continue the infighting. The next day they went out on their alms round to collect food, but the village people would not give them anything. They said that they had driven the Buddha away with their pointless bickering, and now they would no longer feed them.
Suddenly, all the monks decided that their argument was not really that important, and that in fact food was more important and they ran to catch up with the Buddha and apologise for their lack of wisdom.
This story is recorded in the Pali Cannon. Unfortunately the Buddha is no longer alive and the bickering between different Buddhist schools is worse now than ever. We no longer have the Buddha around to remind us of what the Dharma and the Holy life are really about, so we have to work it out for ourselves.
Surrender, humility, love, service, silence, benediction, grace.
First of all, the swords have to be laid down.
Christi
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mikael
27 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 08:07:15 AM
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alwayson, i really can't agree with you here. the realization of Dzogchen is not higher than Mahamudra. I suggest you read Crystal and the Way of Light. its very good. and also understand that Tibetan lineages have a tendency for exaggerating and having a superiority complex.
i'm no expert, i'll be receiving transmission from ChNN soon and will learn more about all this. and I might learn from Drikung Kagyu lineage as well, as there is a Lama living close by who is a lineage holder of both Mahamudra and the Drikung Dzogchen lineage (Yangzab)
i do think Kalu Rinpoche said that Mahamudra practitioners can attain Rainbow body. I know I said before that other traditions don't attain Rainbow body directly, because of the proper cause wasn't there, I never said that I thought Rainbow body was the highest realization. I'm still not sure what to think about that.
but it is worth mentioning that Buddhahood or Total Realization in Dzogchen is realizing the Dharmakaya, or Zhi (base) in Tibetan, (which just seems like Emptiness) but also manifesting infinitely through Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya forms to help beings. like the Sun shining light, rays of compassion shine forth. but is this ability natural? or does it have to be developed through practices like Thogal? well thats the question then. just throwing out an idea here, the whole Tibetan way of Tantra is about speeding up the process by using methods that do what would already naturally occur. for example Kundalini or Thigle naturally awakens through practice but in Tantra you forcefully awaken it to speed up the process. maybe it's just the same thing, maybe Rainbow body naturally manifests once one has sufficient clarity of Dharmakaya, but in Dzogchen we help that process along. I don't know, just thinking aloud :)
I think they are different approaches. Mahamudra is more gradual, more intellectual, while Dzogchen is very direct and doesn't intellectualize all that much.
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 11:07:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mikael
alwayson, i really can't agree with you here. the realization of Dzogchen is not higher than Mahamudra.
I do not see where I claimed that realization of Dzogchen is higher than Mahamudra.
I merely pointed out the FACT, that Dzogchen is the only Vajrayana teaching that claims that it is beyond buddhist cause and effeect. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 29 2009 11:22:46 AM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 11:13:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Gampopa achieved Buddhahood in life with Guru Yoga and Mahamudra. So did Phagmo Drupa, Lord Jigten Sumgon and thousands of other Kagyu Lamas.
What is your definition of Mahamudra? Mahamudra is really about Anuttarayoga Tantra completion/perfection stage practice.
So these kundalini type practices is what I think of, when I hear the term Mahamudra, not your fictitious and fabricated point of view.
So by saying that many people obtained Buddhahood by Mahamudra, you are actually proving my point. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 29 2009 11:24:57 AM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 11:22:09 AM
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I bow to the Precious Guru Buddha and pray for the blessings and protections of the Dharma Protector.
This discussion between Alwayson and me is not about sectarian or arguing about who is right. Alwayson is sincere, but a little stuck in the mud. Alwayson's sangha is trying to help him understand that buddhahood is beyond some method. It is the nature of reality, the nature of his mind.
Mahamudra and Dzogchen are not comparable in the sense of one is intellectual (Mahamudra) and one is direct (Dzogchen). Both are equally beyond the intellect, simple, direct and beyond methods or paths. They both deal with nature.
Mahamudra is more child-like and feminine. Dzogchen more adult and masculine. Mahamudra comes from the "Whispered Lineage" and speaks of the "Practice Blessings." That is soft, innocent and sweet. Dzogchen speaks of the "Cutting Through" and "Crossing Over." That is manly, strong and sharp. Mahamudra describes meditation "feelings." Dzogchen describes meditation "visions." Mahamudra practice deities are feminine, Vajrayogani. Dzogchen practice deities are wrathful. Of course, both have both, but each tends to gravitate more toward one side. Ultimately, both are Tara, Samantabhadra.
From Yeshe Lama: "The key point of Thogal is training in ending body attachment."
From Flight of the Garuda:
quote:
"In the vernacular it is "I"; some Hindus call it the "Self"; the sravaka disciples say "selfless individual"; the followers of Mind-only cal it simply "mind"; some call it "perfect insight"; some call it "buddha-nature"; some call it the "mahamudra"; some call it the "middle-way"; some call it the "cosmic seed"; some call it the "reality-continuum"; some call it the "universal ground"; some call it "ordinary consciousness". Since the synonyms of mind, the labels we apply to it are countless, know it for what it really is. Know it experientially as the here and now. Compose yourself in the natural state of your mind's nature."
The two text quoted above are Dzogchen texts. Flight of the Garuda never mentions Thogal. Why? Because it is a beginning exercise.
The real meditation is to rest in the Natural State which is non-conceptual, beyond words, awareness open like the sky. In that state, all thoughts, feelings and six senses appear as a magical display. Seeing first hand their illusory nature, you don't reach, try to grasp or hold. You let go, and the displays naturally dissolve into the Dharmakaya. This is the nature of reality.
All the practice blessing prayers, visualizations, gazes, postures, methods and techniques are like supports, crutches, boosts on the path, because our habit energy is so deeply ingrained, the simplicity of the Natural State eludes us before our mind, even though it is our own mind. We need the lineage, the sangha, the dharma friends to lend us a helping hand, to extend us a rope as we are neck deep in quick sand. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 29 2009 11:26:58 AM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 11:27:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Gampopa achieved Buddhahood in life with Guru Yoga and Mahamudra. So did Phagmo Drupa, Lord Jigten Sumgon and thousands of other Kagyu Lamas.
What is your definition of Mahamudra? Mahamudra is really about Anuttarayoga Tantra completion/perfection stage practice.
So these kundalini type practices is what I think of, when I hear the term Mahamudra, not your fictitious and fabricated point of view.
So by saying that many people obtained Buddhahood by Mahamudra, you are actually proving my point.
The following is the point of view of The Kagyu Lineage.
Mahamudra = The Unelaborated Unfabricated Natural State = The Dharmakaya = Buddha-Nature |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 11:37:22 AM
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Then from your point of view, Eckhart Tolle and many neo-Advaitins are also practicing Mahamudra, and will become Buddhas.
I think you have an agenda. LONG before you adopted buddhism, as themysticseeker, you would also post constantly about the nature of the mind, Advaita style. Read your old posts. I think you have some sort of deep seated issue.
I hope you realize that Mahamudra = kundalini practice i.e. completion stage practice, before you waste everyone's time including your own. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 29 2009 12:57:07 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 1:39:48 PM
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I sincerely praise the Three Jewels.
When I went to my lama for the first time, I wanted to learn Six Yogas, tummo and karmamudra. I went there talking about the 3 visions of karmamudra, winds, heart chakra and what not.
My lama spent the next 8 months systematically breaking down my attachment to graded paths and ultimate techniques. These recent posts are not my own special unique point of view. It is the point of view of the Kagyu and Nyingmapa lamas.
Gampopa created the "Five-Fold Path of Mahamudra" as the path system for the monks en mass. 1. Bodhichitta. 2. Guru Yoga. 3. Deity Yoga. 4. Mahamudra. 5. Dedication. This "Path" is for all people of all types and levels.
The special Essence Mahamudra path was only taught to a few disciples, and comes to me through His Holiness Kyabgon Rinpoche, His Eminence Garchen Rinpoche and Lama Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche.
What you see in me as a deep-seated issue about the nature of mind, is your deep-seated issue, lack of faith and confidence.
Nowadays, Rinpoche's will introduce the nature of mind, and when people don't get it, they will say, "You're right, that was too simple. Let me show you something at your level, a special complicated hard to master technique." Then, you will get what you have been chasing after, methods and techniques. Once you recognize mind's nature, you are reintroduced to the unelaborated meditation.
After my Guru Yoga retreat, there was a special flower that only opens once a year for twenty minutes. After the tzok offering. I went home. As I left, it opened. My dharma friends were blown away and took lots of pictures. The following week I saw this huge plant in the altar room. I asked about it and Rinpoche told me the story. I was all gleeful and petted the plant lovingly and felt pretty special. Then, we had class. After class we always have dinner. I didn't know this, but Rinpoche put the flower in my soup. After I ate, I asked about it. I was a little disturbed to know I ate the "congratulations flower." Then, I realized the lesson is, don't be attached to accomplishments, specialness or any of that.
The real method is no attachment and no focus.
You can waste your own time with stages and paths if you want. I would too, if I wanted to. There are vast numbers of techniques and methods tailored to individuals of all types and tastes. Such is the infinite compassion and skillful means of the Precious Guru Buddha.
Enlightenment depends on The Buddha, Dharma and Sangha and the blessings of the lineage. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 29 2009 2:12:52 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 1:56:03 PM
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Gampopa is the guy who invented the kagyu's special mahamudra, including essence mahamudra, which is criticized by every other school.
So you DO follow that controversial mahamudra... |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 29 2009 2:15:39 PM |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 2:20:29 PM
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Could either of you explain to me, as an interested party, what these controversies are all about vis a vis mahamudra and dzogchen? From my humble perspective, it would seem that enlightenment is fairly absolute: either you achieve it or you don't. Alwayson, are you saying that there are types of 'fake' enlightenment?
gri |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 2:25:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Gampopa is the guy who invented the kagyu's special mahamudra, including essence mahamudra, which is criticized by every other school.
So you DO follow that controversial mahamudra...
Wow I feel so cool now that you called me controversial. Honestly, I'm not aware this is a controversial teaching. It is the essence of all Vajrayana teachings. Gampopa is hardly controversial. More like revered as Youthful Moonlight, a 10th Bhumi disciple of Shakyamuni Buddha who was prophecied to spread the teachings of the King of Samadhi Sutra.
Gampopa is the guy who attained buddhahood who inherited the lineage from Milarepa, because he was his foremost disciple. The entire Kagyu lineage comes from Gampopa. Our lineage is Vajradhara, Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa, Dharma Lord Gampopa, Phagmo Drupa and Lord Jigten Sumgon. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 29 2009 2:34:19 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 2:34:40 PM
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Atleast now I understand where you are coming from. Everything makes sense now, including our dispute about high versus low etc.
I would research Sakya view, or even get a Sakya teacher. You are allowed to have multiple teachers from different lineages, atleast you are supposed to. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jul 29 2009 2:43:52 PM |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 3:46:36 PM
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Hi alwayson2, Welcome back! Hail Thee Well, Konchok Osel Dorje!
alwayson2, I must thank you again for your fine reccomendation of "Approaching The Great Perfection", with regard to some of my questions. It is an excellent book, the profundity of which, has in part, prevented me from keeping my promise yet, to discuss it, on another thread. However, perusing a few photocopied pages today I came across some things that might pertain to your discussion, and, as I can see you both have been very busy, I thought I would quote them for you. I think you will each find something to enjoy.
Jigme Lingpa, states in the Treasure Text "Distinguishing the Three Essential Points of The Great Perfection":
Mind and gnosis are like air and space. Mind is the aspect of deceptive objects of fixation, vividly filling up, swirling round, and pouring out again, or briefly becoming agitated like a hurricane. Its foundation is the condition for the various sensations.
Gnossis is without supports and all-pervasive. In its emptiness it opens up as the spacelike expanse; In its luminosity it is nonconceptual and radient like a polished crystal. Thus the (second) essential point of the Seminal Heart is to hold a secure place in the natural state, Utterly liberated from mind in the expanse of gnosis.
Those who have not realized this say that mind is everything, Divided according to whether it is tainted or untainted by the perception of objects.
Such views, which cannot apprehend the nature, that is like water or quicksilver falling to the ground, Are confused about the place of simultainious liberation, Where the summit of Vajryana makes the result the path......Not to fabricate with ones' intellect the naked natural state Of ordinariness, the primordial union (of samatha and vipasyana).....
In the future, sentient beings, unsuitable because of thier small merit, Will have great difficulty meeting with a sacred lama.
Because of their feeble prajna, they will not realize the meaning of tantra.
Because of thier small devotion, it will be rare to recieve a mind transmission.
Because of thier inferior intelligence, they will not compehend the essential points of instruction.
Having placed thier confidence in mere hearsay, They will guide the afflicted, having spent no time in the mountains.
....END QUOTE
With Kind Regards, dfb |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 3:51:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Atleast now I understand where you are coming from. Everything makes sense now, including our dispute about high versus low etc.
I would research Sakya view, or even get a Sakya teacher. You are allowed to have multiple teachers from different lineages, atleast you are supposed to.
If I took another teacher it would be a Nyingmapa teacher. Mahamudra and Dzogchen like twin brother and sister. Many Kagyu and Nyingma masters practice both Mahamudra and Dzogchen. But there is really no need to search. I will let things play out naturally. Highest Kagyu teachings are raining down on me. His Holiness Taklung Matul Rinpoche is staying at our center, and I will get to spend a lot of time with him. Many masters are scheduled to come to our center. I'm just enjoying the ride.
Shakbar Rinpoche says that searching for a method outside the natural state is like riding your elephant while searching for its tracks. I highly recommend you read Flight of the Garuda. It is a treasure.
I like how you recommend I go find a new teacher. I recommend you find a teacher. You really need one. |
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