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krcqimpro1
India
329 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 11 2009 : 12:33:53 AM
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Yogani,or any other member who wishes to comment,
What is beyond Enlightenment ? Sri Aurobindo talks of Enlightenment being only the first step. His writings on the subject are quite abstruce. Any comments or clarification will be welcome.
Krish |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2009 : 1:42:32 PM
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Hi Krish, can't speak from own experience here, and I don't know Aurobindo, but my association is this:
If the definition of enlightenment here is the shift in perspective where you see through the illusion of the personal identity and realize you are Consciousness, then that would only be a first step, since the journey never ends, and the mystery is infinite.
I have seen already "first step" realized beings continue to realize further, when I was on Fiji. Quite fascinating! One of them spoke as he opened his eyes and uttered the words: I am beyond That. I guess we will only know ourselves as we go there...  |
Edited by - emc on Apr 11 2009 2:27:30 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2009 : 7:07:09 PM
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| There is nothing beyond enlightenment. Enlightenment is by definition beyond. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2009 : 7:16:16 PM
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This confusion is usually caused by the false assumption that enlightenment is a goal that is reached, then nothing changes.
Enlightenment is instead, a process of continuous change.
Yes, you do reach a point where the burden is lifted off of you, making you lighter. But that is not the end, even though it can seem like all that is necessary.
There are many more stages that are just as wonderful, and it never ends.
So if your definition of enlightenment is something that happens once, then there IS something beyond enlightenment - more enlightenment!
But the definition I prefer is an ongoing process, or path which never ends, and doesn't have any need for a "beyond". |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2009 : 7:34:19 PM
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| This is semantics. Different teachers give different teachings. One teacher's enlightenment is another teacher's small realization. If there is more learning, and further experience, then, in my understanding, that is not enlightenment. My feeling is enlightenment is beyond learning, beyond further attainments of wisdom or miracle powers. It is a finality. |
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2009 : 9:17:11 PM
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Who knows Kon? I disagree that this is semantics. I like Ether's description of the process. And perhaps, when 'enlightenment' occurs, one might choose to return to this place and help others grow. Why be concerned with teachers? The process is experiential. I don't think anyone else can describe it or teach 'enlightenment'. But we can share, and thanks Yogani for this site.
Kathy |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2009 : 9:53:19 PM
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| Okay, fine. If that's what you like. I can accept that. My teacher is my mind. My mind is not-different than the Buddha. The Buddha achieved enlightenment. Many of his students achieved enlightenment. I have not achieved enlightenment. For now, I will rely on those who have for the methods. According to them, not me, there is a point of no more learning. That does not mean no more experience. Many bodhisattvas remain behind to help other beings. My opinion is a bodhisattva is not enlightened; there is more learning. Yogani is also a very good teacher. I agree. I am also thankful to him. I thank all gurus. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2009 : 10:00:26 PM
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I like this story: "suppose great merchants from a great country are travelling the ocean searching for jewels. After many months at sea, in some desolate place, they become completely tired and exhausted and think, 'there is no way to get the jewels now.' When they feel discouraged and prepare to turn back, the merchant captain manifests a huge island through is miracle power and lets all his followers rest there. After a few days, when they are fully rested and relaxed, the captain says, 'We have not achieved our goal. Now we should go farther to get our jewels.'"
This is an analogy for who both answers are correct. There is little enlightenment, further enlightenment and final enlightenment. No doubt if you reach final enlightenment; you are fully awakened, there's no greater awake you can get, then you would say, "I was ignorant up until now." |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2009 : 12:01:48 AM
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Here is a quote from one of Yogani's lessons on "Is Enlightenment an Illusion?"
http://www.aypsite.com/283.html
Intellect can't do it alone. More often, intellect is in the way, even when it thinks it is helping. In that sense the cognition of "enlightenment" may be the greatest illusion of them all. That helps explain the failures of so-called "enlightened" people. It seems the minute we put on the label, it is no longer that.
It is much simpler than that, I think… Joy, peace, love, compassion, energy, creativity, serving the evolutionary flow of life... These are qualities that really do emerge in people who regularly practice effective spiritual methods – deep meditation, spinal breathing, etc. Why give it a name like "enlightenment?" Well, we must, being a species that has a name for everything. But we do so at the risk of building a castle in the air. Sooner or later that castle will fall. As they say, "What goes up must come down."
As for the intellect, it does have an important role in the evolutionary process. The way we reason things out can inspire us to practice, or not. It is we who choose whether or not to do the things that are necessary to advance. That is the role of the intellect – it is in the choosing that we do. Also, if we have been meditating for some months or years, inner silence will be coming up, and then we have more options with intellect in relation to our "inner witness" which becomes increasingly available to us. We can then choose from that place within us that is the essence of wisdom itself. For an interesting exploration of this, see this topic in the AYP Forums called: "Self-Inquiry -- A Practice Between Our Meditations."
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=968 |
Edited by - Etherfish on Apr 12 2009 12:04:31 AM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2009 : 10:01:56 AM
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| Perhaps it is even simpler than that. Rest in the sphere beyond words, without hope. |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2009 : 5:54:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
There is nothing beyond enlightenment. Enlightenment is by definition beyond.
Yes. Beyond enlightenment there is no possibility of there ever having been any elightenment. The game's up.
Nevertheless, our belief in our incompleteness causes untold suffering and calls forth a compassionate and skilfull response, which may be to collude with our notion of 'enlightenment' (or equally with our notion of 'god'), and to provide a means for its search which destroys all concepts, including itself and the one who seeks it, and thus also the chain of suffering which depends upon this false belief. It is not an easy belief to shake off. Most of us need more than Mahakashyapa's flower.
The danger for the one who offers her/himself as the skilfull means, believed by others to be 'enlightened', is to begin to believe it. Which is why the lineage is important. And why ideally we should perhaps teach only if commanded to do so by a teacher who knows us better than we know ourselves, and even then offer all teaching as hers/his, and to him/her.
Suzuki Roshi (I think it was) was famously asked by a disciple why he never mentioned satori in his teaching. His wife answered 'because he's never had it'. Never a truer word.
As Master Dogen said, "In the transmission of the Great Matter, absolutely no communication takes place."
chinna
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Edited by - chinna on Apr 18 2009 05:03:44 AM |
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krcqimpro1
India
329 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2009 : 08:33:04 AM
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In his book, "The Divine Life", Sri Aurobindo of Pondichery says,"Let us be clear on what is transformation;is it the same as self-realisation and if it is,what is the need of bringing in this concept of transformation/ Once you realise the Divine, you are one with It and that is the end of it. Where does transformation come in?" He explains that a realisation is attainment of a certain state of consciousness, of unity, of realisation, of intimacy, a state of attainment in consciousness and that is usually in some central part of the being.It may be that you realise intimacy with the Lord of your being, with the Divine Mother, in the heart.It may be a realisation of unity with the all-pervading Divine-Brahman in the universe or with transcendent Purusha-Purushottama. These states are confined to the part or level of being where they are attained. The rest of the being may or may not be influenced by this fact of realisation. Transformation is definitely more. It means the effect of that realisation, the dynamic process of that realisation in changing nature, changing the substance of the being.(He says nature is not intractable) Transformation is a succeeding step after realisation.He says there are 3 broad movements of transformation,- the psychic, the spiritual and the supramental. He outlines steps on the way, the practical difficulties etc.
Would Yogani like to comment on this?
Krish |
Edited by - krcqimpro1 on Apr 19 2009 01:00:32 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2009 : 09:36:19 AM
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Hi krcqimpro1,
I am sure Yogani will comment, and I look forward to reading it. In the meantime...
There are a surprising number of similarities between Yogani's teachings and those of Sri Aurobindo. Sri Aurobindo, as you know, talked about enlightenment, and stages of realization beyond enlightenment. Yogani also talkes about the establishment of the witness state as a 24 hour, 7 days a week experience, as beeing "first stage enlightenment" with levels of realization beyond that. They both talk about the higher stages of enlightenment involving a transformation in consciousness beyond the witness state, and about the merging of transcendental states of consciousness with this earthly life as being the ultimate destination for the enlightened person.
Some others have talked about progressive stages of realization beyond the stage of enlightenment, including Osho, Adi Da, Adyashanti, and Amma. Some would say that in Buddhism, the establishment of the consciousness permanently in the witness state would correspond with the stage of stream entry, with 3 further stages of evolution remaining.
Adyashanti talked about "final enlightenment" as being the point where there is no longer any seeking (or, presumably, seeker), but with further evolution beyond that.
Christi |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2009 : 09:42:13 AM
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Hi Krish:
Self-realization before transformation? Interesting take on the process of human spiritual transformation.
Since it is essentially the same process everywhere, this can be taken to mean that the "intimate" recognition of our potential to a degree (to any degree?) is "self-realization" in Aurobindo's terminology. And then we continue on with all the rest of it.
I think presenting "self-realization" as a prerequisite to transformation is misleading, since it implies much more than may actually be going on, and could lead to some castles being built in the air. Perhaps Aurobindo seeks to inspire by projecting immediate self-realization? I could buy into the rationale if we replaced the phrase "self-realization" with "abiding inner silence" (witness - 1st stage), as Christi mentions above. Much more "transformation" coming after that.
It is different semantics being used to describe the same process.
If it is not that, then it is getting the cart in front of the horse, as so many non-dual teachings do. After all, in the quote you gave, Aurobindo describes self-realization as "attainment of a certain state of consciousness..."
Isn't an attainment a transformation? 
Well, the terminology doesn't matter so much. What matters is that we are becoming it -- the attainment, the transformation, the works! 
The guru is in you.
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2009 : 10:07:46 AM
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PS: Someone recently emailed me asking for a "definition of enlightenment." Here is what I wrote back. Perhaps it has some bearing on this discussion:
Hello:
Every tradition has its own definition of enlightenment. Ultimately, it boils down to the aspirant's growing experience. Without direct experience, all the definitions in the world mean nothing.
As the lesson says (#323), consider it to be an unending journey of unfoldment, rather than a fixed condition or event. In that way, we are able to ask ourselves, "Is my condition better now than last year? Am I happier, more creative, more at peace?" These are the things that matter. We'd like to know we are on the right track. Are we feeling "more enlightened" now than before? If so, good deal. Then keep going with the present program. If not, then maybe consider looking for improvements in practice.
Because people always ask, these milestones were laid out early on in the AYP lessons:
http://www.aypsite.org/35.html
It is a rough template of signature experiences that can occur along the way. Enlightenment has been discussed many times since then, in the lessons, in the books, and in the AYP Support Forum community where you are invited to chime in. Everyone benefits from the open discussions.
Here is one of the more popular lessons on enlightenment, called "Getting Enlightenment:"
http://www.aypsite.org/120.html
Moral of the story: You will know you are getting it when you are able to give it all away - nothing else to do.
Ultimately, enlightenment is becoming "stillness in action," or Oneness, which is an endless outpouring of divine love. We can become permanent channels for That, the thing itself, with the inherent experience of it being Joy.
But none of that means anything until the aspirant finds out through direct experience. And that is why in AYP we focus on effective practices that anyone can use according to their inner inclination ... much better to offer means than definitions. :-)
All the best!
The guru is in you.
Yogani
www.aypsite.org
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2009 : 11:50:49 AM
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Thank you Yogani,
It's interesting how we try to shop for enlightenment like we would shop for a new car. First we want a concrete definition of what we are looking for, then we want to compare the advantages of different systems matching that definition.
I think a problem with that approach is that it is similar to a blind man shopping for another blind man to lead him. Not that gurus haven't achieved anything, as there is plenty of evidence that they have. But one person's experience is not going to be the same as another's. Only the means to get there is the same, and idolizing another person's experience will delay your own.
I would like to propose that teaching the means to get to the destination is the ONLY thing a guru can teach you.
I have read hundreds of posts here, and if any group of aspirants were to have any commonality it would be here. And yet the only thing that can be predicted for sure is that sometimes different people will see the same scenery, although they will often describe it differently.
As we progress on the path, the world view we gain has similarities, and people understand each other in the terms Yogani mentions above; divine, outpouring love etc.
But there seems to be no exact definition of the enlightenment being attained. In fact it seems to be different for each person, as the "same" path seems different for each person.
So it seems futile to shop for types of enlightenment described by words.
I think the way to enlightenment of any type is to find your inner guru, by finding inner silence. Then the path that is right for you personally will be constantly revealed.
Not that there is anything wrong with trying to define it. But it is kinda like playing solitaire; just a pastime. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2009 : 10:14:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chinna
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
There is nothing beyond enlightenment. Enlightenment is by definition beyond.
Yes. Beyond enlightenment there is no possibility of there ever having been any elightenment. The game's up.
Nevertheless, our belief in our incompleteness causes untold suffering and calls forth a compassionate and skilfull response, which may be to collude with our notion of 'enlightenment' (or equally with our notion of 'god'), and to provide a means for its search which destroys all concepts, including itself and the one who seeks it, and thus also the chain of suffering which depends upon this false belief. It is not an easy belief to shake off. Most of us need more than Mahakashyapa's flower.
The danger for the one who offers her/himself as the skilfull means, believed by others to be 'enlightened', is to begin to believe it. Which is why the lineage is important. And why ideally we should perhaps teach only if commanded to do so by a teacher who knows us better than we know ourselves, and even then offer all teaching as hers/his, and to him/her.
Suzuki Roshi (I think it was) was famously asked by a disciple why he never mentioned satori in his teaching. His wife answered 'because he's never had it'. Never a truer word.
As Master Dogen said, "In the transmission of the Great Matter, absolutely no communication takes place."
chinna
Hi Chinna, I'm not sure how to respond to you. I'm not sure if your comments are really directed to me. But you quoted me, so I'm assuming they do. Perhaps you can clarify. I don't recall saying I am enlightened. I recall in this thread saying that I am not enlightened. My lama has commanded me to teach. I teach a dharma class in the Bay Area.
There's nothing to do with complete or incomplete. Each of us has the capacity for enlightenment. We each have buddha-nature. Enlightenment is an automatic result depending upon that buddha-nature, attending a spiritual master, being devoted to the teacher's instructions, motivation bodhichitta, loving-kindness, the emptiness and dedication of merit to the world.
There is no mystery. This is the compassionate means to destroy all of one's conceptual thoughts and achieve enlightenment. This is the teaching of my lineage as proscribed by Dharma Lord Gampopa, and it is the one I trust, because he was a learned scholar, a high yogi and he achieved buddhahood with many miraculous signs.
According to him, enlightenment does not come until the 10th Bodhisattva Bhumi. Realized would be an ordinary spiritual master who has not even achieved the 1st Bhumi. A first Bhumi bodhisattva can aid hundreds of sentient beings in a single moment, anywhere in the world. That is one quality, among others. Yogani has this quality. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2009 : 03:38:12 AM
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| Ösel, why do you think your master commanded you to start teaching? |
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krcqimpro1
India
329 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2009 : 09:53:27 AM
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Thanks, Christi and Yogani. I have noticed many similarities between what Aurobindo said and what Yogani has written. I think I also understand when Aurobindo says "a state of consciousness in some central part of the being, and the rest of the "being" may not be affected at all". Perhaps Aorobindo defined Enlightenment as going to the Supramental state, as opposed to "self-realisation", which he probably defines as a lower, or first stage. When he says "being", I wonder what his definition is.
Krish |
Edited by - krcqimpro1 on Apr 20 2009 09:48:51 AM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2009 : 12:04:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Ösel, why do you think your master commanded you to start teaching?
When I first met him, he looked at me and said, "I feel you have high knowledge." Shortly after that he asked me to teach at his monastery. I learned yoga from my Indian grandfather when I was young and practiced a lot of meditation. I also studied a lot about vedanta, tantra, yoga and dharma. My lama challenged to me to boil everything down to the essence, and make simple, like pith instructions. It is quite a challenge to put together a core teaching. That is what I'm working on. I see a strong line of symmetry between, dharma, tantra, mahamudra, dzogchen, advaita vedanta and zen: Self-inquiry and realizing the natural state of awareness as focus of meditation.
I am also volunteering my time to the monastery, which is now about the same amount of time I spend working. It is really wonderful. My lama is like a rare work of art. He has a high level of realization from his years in retreat, and he is well respected by many people who hold titles like "His Holiness..." He sees it as his mission to introduce me to all the best masters he knows in all the different lineages. He wants to make me into a lama. It's all a little overwhelming. I have met already so many wonderful beings who have taught me so much. It is beyond words.
Honestly, I'm a little in shock from this experience. I was happy if he would say, "you are good student," and teach me things. I didn't think it would mean all this. I wanted to go into short retreats. But he is more interested in my teachings and meeting high lamas and chaan masters. His goal, I think, is to train me up to run his monastery so he can leave it to me while he goes into another three year retreat. This is something he wants to do in the next year or so. So I'm getting a crash course. His instruction has changed the quality of my meditation tremendously. The energy totally has changed.
Now I realize that motivation to be a real help to all beings, actual work to do so creates social situations where you are challenged, and dedication to all beings summons a great energy. That energy is the path. It enters the meditation mind and is very powerful, because you want to realize and also make that experience accessible to someone. Those two things practice and instruction work interdependently with motivation and dedication to create both great realization and great teaching.
This was not a pith answer. Sorry. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2009 : 1:15:21 PM
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| It's a beautiful answer, Ösel. Thank you for taking the time! I can understand the overwhelming and shocking aspect to it! Sounds very challenging indeed, not to have the spiritual ego grow and sneek in disguised and shaped in it's most exquisit forms, from such a task, but to truly stay as a servant to other beings! I guess Life and other beings will be your best support in that in creating those "social situations in which you are challenged" you mention! I wish you all the best with your teaching journey! It sounds wonderful. |
Edited by - emc on Apr 19 2009 1:24:17 PM |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2009 : 6:23:55 PM
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Hi Ösel
Happy to clarify.
I did not intend to imply that you had claimed enlightenment, nor anyone else on this forum. My guess is that the group would give short shrift to anyone who made such a claim, which is one of the strengths of a group forum such as this.
I speak as someone who runs psychotherapeutic groups for the severely disturbed and has learned to be confident that the group's collective wisdom is the best lodestone. Encouragement of group members to authenticity is the most important contribution I can make. The truth is always there to be seen and spoken, and may be voiced by the least expected member of the group. For in truth 'We are already one, but we imagine that we are not. What we have to recover is our original unity. What we have to be is what we are.' (Thomas Merton)
Thus the importance of sangha and lineage, of church and 'communion of saints', and of the boddhisattva vow. When Eastern forms of developed tantra-yoga, with multiple gnostic stages and levels, meet western heroic individualism and our projections of celebrity, we have a potentially toxic mix, and need to keep reminding ourselves that what we seek is very simple, is our true self, is identical in everybody, is ultimately a matter of integrity. I need to keep reminding myself, anyway.
In response to your comment that 'it's not about complete or incomplete', I agree. I said 'our belief in our incompleteness'. In that difference, the whole matter lies. |
Edited by - chinna on Apr 19 2009 7:12:26 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2009 : 10:51:04 PM
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Whatever happened to that guy who used to come here and claimed he was one of only a few in the world who had reached the 27th degree of enlightenment? And most enlightened people were on a much lower degree than him. ROTFL. |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2009 : 4:28:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Whatever happened to that guy who used to come here and claimed he was one of only a few in the world who had reached the 27th degree of enlightenment? And most enlightened people were on a much lower degree than him. ROTFL.
ROTFL?
I do appreciate your posts, Etherfish, thank you. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2009 : 4:34:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chinna
ROTFL?
Rolling On The Floor Laughing
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2009 : 08:02:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
quote:
Originally posted by chinna
ROTFL?
Rolling On The Floor Laughing
Ah! I don't do enough of that. I'll try harder. But wait, is it the outcome of practice, or the antithesis of practice? Should I try harder, or less hard, or not try at all? O dear, now I've made it into yet another problem......(ROTFL) |
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Beyond Enlightenment
