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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 11:44:19 AM
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Namaste Friends.....
Lately I have been finding that during my practices I am in a deep state of the witness (at least that is what I think I am experiencing) and that most of my practices now seem automatic. But yesterday during my afternoon session I realized that perhaps I am either not actually in the witness state or that there must be different "levels" or "stages" of the witness. What has become common for me now is to come into my practices and by the time I am halfway through my 25 minute asana set I am in what I thought to be "the witness state". I find that I am not "doing" anything anymore and that my practices are "doing me". I can sort of relax and watch myself "going through the motions". Pranayam is especially powerful for me in this state. All the mudras and bandhas happen automatically, the breathing happens without any intention, my session automatically ends at the right time without watching the clock, and I can just sit and watch everything that is happening to my body with calm enjoyment. But yesterday I realized that there must be different levels of the witness state because I noticed that I will only be witnessing certain aspects of what is going on and am not witnessing "the whole". I will use an example to explain what I mean by this....Yesterday I am doing pranayam and I am just watching my body doing all the motions....but at one point I realized I wasn't breathing anymore. I was in a kumbhaka (with breath mostly inhaled...my lungs were a little more then half full) and have NO idea when this happened or how long I had been "holding" my breath. So obviously I wasn't "totally" witnessing my situation....I was witnessing an ASPECT of what was happening since I did not notice myself stop breathing....So my confusion I guess is around whether or not I am deluding myself into thinking that I am experiencing the witness state. Is it possible to be witnessing only certain aspects of one's situation in this state, or if you are truly experiencing life as the witness are you aware of everything happening around you? Sorry if this seems like a stupid question. Thanks for any input.
Love,
Carson |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 12:52:58 PM
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The witnessing "Self" is not necessarily omniscient, and therefore does not necessarily experience everything or every momentary aspect of the small "s" self performing its activities. In other words, yes--you may be experiencing full silent witnessing of the small bounded self by the large unbounded Self and still not "see" everything which is happening to, for instance, your breathing or your motions. The automatic-ness of experience is a big clue, and, as you described it, "I find that I am not "doing" anything anymore and that my practices are "doing me" is also a definite validation of the witness. Enjoy and don't analyze so much--Being is easier than doing!
Michael |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 1:30:18 PM
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Thanks Micheal.
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 7:00:17 PM
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After this afternoons meditation I have a new question in this matter....
It seems to me that it is not possible to have any "intentions" while in the witness state. So that would make everything (not just yoga) done in this state "automatic" right? Is this a flawed view? Thanks for any input.
Love,
Carson |
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Lacinato
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 8:01:40 PM
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| This is interesting. I know Byron Katie says after she started questioning her thoughts, she would hear things like "do the dishes" or "get up" and think "why not?" and just do them, instead of her old response, "Ohhhh...I can't do that, I don't want to...". But it must have been her thought, even if she didn't identify with it. |
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Jo-self
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2009 : 8:29:57 PM
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Definitely some levels of Witnessing. Yogani talks about it in some of the lessons or books. Some other teachers were pretty hip to actually mention it.
One way of categorizing is by type of activity and how much it requires mental awareness or focus. Thus, starting an activity is not witnessed at first since you are interested in its result, else why start it?. Likewise with the end of an activity. However, the middle of an activity is easier to Witness. For example, I usually Witness my walking and other simple things. Further on, very complex actions and repertoirs will be witnessed, even the experience of emotions and pain. Not unlike the experience when one is involved in a traumatic event or emergency or even 'acting'.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2009 : 10:34:52 AM
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For me the only time I seem to be in the witness state is during my practices and at this point I only really start the first three or four postures and then just "sit" back and watch myself go through my whole routine. Everything else is happening without any intention. Even my timing is all automatic. I don't use a clock any more. So I guess there is intention before the witness starts happening, the intention to do my practices, but once I am "into" my session and the witness is present, there is no more intention. You guys are saying there are levels of the witness where you CAN have intentions?
Love,
Carson
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2009 : 2:32:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I guess there is intention before the witness starts happening, the intention to do my practices, but once I am "into" my session and the witness is present, there is no more intention.
Here is the great misunderstood fallacy regarding witnessing. It does not start or stop, become present and then absent. This "Witness" is always present, always engaged, always the basis, the foundation of our self. Only when we feel we are "witnessing" is when we become actively, consciously aware of that aspect of self all along. It's always there, but we seldom notice it because its silence is normally overshadowed by the noise of our activity. When, through meditation, silence becomes more firmly established in life, then we begin to notice it. And where do we first notice it? In the silence of meditation, where the noise will not dim it. This is a very slippery thing to grasp at first, but when we begin to witness active life and the depths of sleep, then we get a clearer appreciation of how it works and what it's really like. And so in reality, there are no levels, just the flat silent unmanifest atman which is the witness. It is only our experience of that which has these levels. As for Intention from that level, the Absolute has no intentions--it has no "doing", and is only "Being." It is the shadow of ego which is "doing our intentions" as it were, which remains attached to or involved with what happens. That is sufficient to allow life to be lived.
Michael |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2009 : 2:40:00 PM
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Hi Micheal,
quote:
Originally posted by mikkiji
Here is the great misunderstood fallacy regarding witnessing. It does not start or stop, become present and then absent.
You could really call this semantics Brother. Half dozen of one 6 of another. I know what you are saying though.
quote:
Originally posted by mikkiji
This "Witness" is always present, always engaged, always the basis, the foundation of our self. Only when we feel we are "witnessing" is when we become actively, consciously aware of that aspect of self all along. It's always there, but we seldom notice it because its silence is normally overshadowed by the noise of our activity. When, through meditation, silence becomes more firmly established in life, then we begin to notice it. And where do we first notice it? In the silence of meditation, where the noise will not dim it. This is a very slippery thing to grasp at first, but when we begin to witness active life and the depths of sleep, then we get a clearer appreciation of how it works and what it's really like. And so in reality, there are no levels, just the flat silent unmanifest atman which is the witness. It is only our experience of that which has these levels. As for Intention from that level, the Absolute has no intentions--it has no "doing", and is only "Being." It is the shadow of ego which is "doing our intentions" as it were, which remains attached to or involved with what happens. That is sufficient to allow life to be lived.
Thanks Micheal....appreciate the input. My experience seems to suggest the same.
Love,
Carson
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Jo-self
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2009 : 5:33:33 PM
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mikkiji:
I agree with Carson, mostly semantics. The question was based on the little 'self' cognition change to give rise to the witness experience.
But, of course, you raise important aspects of the total concept. Perhaps the term 'levels' is not applicable, maybe how does it get en cultured into our cognitive style?
It's a fascinating concept. What is happening in the brain to give rise to this? How does it relate to the psychosis regarding Disassociation? How does one differentiate? Maybe its not neural network based since minute amounts of psychedelics can mimic or reproduce the experience?
As to intentions when one is witnessing? Most of the time the usual brain chatter is still present, though not overwhelming, and one can formulate plans or respond to unburnt desires.
I also found that Intentions come from others or for others. When your hurtling down a raging river, the boulders on the way, others, divert the stream to send you here or there. When you struggle against these currents, fail to surrender, fear death, you forget to enjoy the ride.
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2009 : 4:20:57 PM
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Hi Carson,
you should stay with your experiences. You say, sometimes there is witnessing of my body doing all this stuff alone. Sometimes you are not in that mode of watching and seemingly more involved in doing. Sometimes you witness little things happening, sometimes more. If you take it that simple, you can easily say there are levels of witnessing in terms of: being aware of some more or less information per moment. Sometimes you witness the coming and going thoughts + your bodily movements at the same time, sometimes one thing is more dominant and the other less. This kind I would call relative awareness of the moment.
As it seems, you have some kind of a recollection of this change in awareness level, what could mean that there is a deeper much more suptle witnessing happening, that allows you to say: it was like that in that moment and like that in another moment. More awareness here, less there etc. This change seems also to be witnessed.
On the other hand, for me, it is god cheating you moment for moment on a very high level =P the moments you are witnessing something, where is the location point of the witnesser? For me it was a very long time (and still is very very often) directly within the head behind the thoughts. But if awareness in the head areas grow, at least it happened like that many times for me, it's like there is no witnesser at all, this is just the biggest fake ever produced by the senses directing some kind of observer within the head area. The thoughts play the same game too. And all this very convincing, that the one you are is there or something like that. Very hard to describe, if the location of the observer is delusioned by high silent awareness.. yeah, hard to go on with words.. god is the best tricker ever ^^ |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2009 : 3:58:07 PM
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Hi Holy...
quote:
Originally posted by Holy
you should stay with your experiences. You say, sometimes there is witnessing of my body doing all this stuff alone. Sometimes you are not in that mode of watching and seemingly more involved in doing. Sometimes you witness little things happening, sometimes more. If you take it that simple, you can easily say there are levels of witnessing in terms of: being aware of some more or less information per moment. Sometimes you witness the coming and going thoughts + your bodily movements at the same time, sometimes one thing is more dominant and the other less. This kind I would call relative awareness of the moment.
Yes, when we talk about "the witness state" like that it is easy to see that there are "levels" of awareness...but what I am calling the "witness" in this thread, is a very distinct state of being. I think there is likely levels of witnessing with the mind, and that is what you are describing above, but what I am trying to understand is really whether or not there are "levels" of "THE witness state". The one with NO mind. The one where there is ONLY watching. To me it seems like there is an ability within the witness state to either "hyper focus" or "widen the perspective". If that makes any sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Holy
As it seems, you have some kind of a recollection of this change in awareness level, what could mean that there is a deeper much more suptle witnessing happening, that allows you to say: it was like that in that moment and like that in another moment. More awareness here, less there etc. This change seems also to be witnessed.
Yes indeed. There can be witnessing with the mind, and there can be Witnessing. These seem to me to be completely different. But the level of "awareness" doesn't seem to really change in EITHER state. This seems confusing to me and I know I will probably never truly "understand". One of those paradoxes that I will just have to let go of I'm sure .
quote:
Originally posted by Holy
On the other hand, for me, it is god cheating you moment for moment on a very high level =P
Not quite sure I get this. How so?
quote:
Originally posted by Holy
the moments you are witnessing something, where is the location point of the witnesser?
There is no location. It is not bound to anything. At least not for me.
quote:
Originally posted by Holy
For me it was a very long time (and still is very very often) directly within the head behind the thoughts. But if awareness in the head areas grow, at least it happened like that many times for me, it's like there is no witnesser at all, this is just the biggest fake ever produced by the senses directing some kind of observer within the head area.
Perhaps this is an even deeper "level" then I have experienced because I don't recognize this at all....
quote:
Originally posted by Holy
The thoughts play the same game too. And all this very convincing, that the one you are is there or something like that. Very hard to describe, if the location of the observer is delusioned by high silent awareness.. yeah, hard to go on with words.. god is the best tricker ever ^^
I don't know about God being the best tricker ever, but words are definitely inadequate for describing spiritual states that's for sure!! Thanks for conversing.
Love,
Carson |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2009 : 8:44:27 PM
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| when I go to the beach, if I stand on the beach at sea level I cannot witness the fullness of the wave, for the bottom of it is blocked out by the whitewater of the wave in front of it. If I stand on a catwalk about ten feet above sea level I am able to witness more of the wave. I also like to witness the sunset from a higher level so I can see over the trees and witness the sun set on the horizon. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 20 2009 : 02:10:25 AM
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Hi Carson
quote:
To me it seems like there is an ability within the witness state to either "hyper focus" or "widen the perspective".
Yes.
I call it "zoom-depthing-in".......it happens of itself...
As for witnessing with the mind....here this is simply the attention. Attention wanders, while witnessing does not. It is possible to watch the minds attention on an object. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 20 2009 : 10:45:04 AM
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Hi Brother Neil....
quote:
Originally posted by brother neil
when I go to the beach, if I stand on the beach at sea level I cannot witness the fullness of the wave, for the bottom of it is blocked out by the whitewater of the wave in front of it. If I stand on a catwalk about ten feet above sea level I am able to witness more of the wave. I also like to witness the sunset from a higher level so I can see over the trees and witness the sun set on the horizon.
I see what you are saying Neil, but with the Witness I don't seem to be bound by my normal perceptual limitations. I don't think this is the full widened perspective that is described by yogi's like Paramahansa when he is touched by Sri Yukteswar and his perception is no longer limited to his body and he can percieve things that are a great distance away, but it seems as though there are levels to this "sense" and that the Witness is an early level of this ability to view things at a distance (Don't know if this sense if called clairvoyance, or what). Perhaps I am completely mixing up two totally different things....I don't know for sure. What I DO know for sure, is that while in "the Witness state" my perception is not limited to my body, and I feel as though I could stop choosing to percieve the actions that my body is basically "unconsciously" doing (or doing on auto pilot), and could move my awareness to another area altogether and be percieving something else while my body continues on as it would if I was still putting my attention there. In your example this would look like this....
I am sitting on the beach in meditation....the witness state arrives and I am just watching myself repeat the mantra and am not actually consciously causing this anymore. From this "vantage" point I can see the waves crashing on the shore but cannot see the ocean behind it. I decide I would like a better vantage point so I shift my awareness ten feet above myself....my meditation continues as it would if nothing had changed...but now I can see the ocean even though my body has not moved an inch. This is what I mean when I say that in the Witness state I do not seem to be bound by my normal preceptual limitations. Hope this makes a little sense and isn't complete babble.
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 20 2009 : 10:57:04 AM
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Hi Katrine....
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
quote:
To me it seems like there is an ability within the witness state to either "hyper focus" or "widen the perspective".
Yes.
I call it "zoom-depthing-in".......it happens of itself...
As for witnessing with the mind....here this is simply the attention. Attention wanders, while witnessing does not. It is possible to watch the minds attention on an object.
"zoom-depthing-in" eh? Just the other day I had this happen of itself in a very extreme manner. In the middle of meditation, while Witnessing the process, I suddenly found myself INSIDE my body....basically wandering around with my awareness inside my body cavity. Now, this has happened before for me, but it has only ever happened on a LARGE dose of ketamine. This used to be one of my favorite K trips actually. I would even do it consciously...taking tours of my internal organs while tripping. But this time I was not on drugs of ANY kind let alone Ketamine, and it was just as vivd, just as real, and actually a bit more unnerving because it was quite unexpected. Yesterday I had a similar experience but going the opposite direction. I'm in meditation and all of a sudden my awareness is floating around outside of my body and it was free to roam while my body continued to meditate as it was. I could still "feel" the mantra vibrating in my awareness even though it was no longer attached to my body. I didn't want to get caught up in scenery, or lose the meditation as my focus of attention so I chose to come back a little closer to my body and conitinue watching it happen. But it seemed as though if I wanted I could have completely left my house and gone on an "awareness adventure" while my practices sort of "happened without me". Have you had this experience? Is this still the Witness state or is this something else? Not that labelling things makes any difference, I'm just curious. (stupid mind)
Love,
Carson |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 20 2009 : 5:18:31 PM
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Hi Carson
quote:
I suddenly found myself INSIDE my body....basically wandering around with my awareness inside my body cavity.
Amazing Carson..........have seen inside the body, but not in vivid 3d like here......that's great
Have you asked: Who is aware of this "wandering around with my awareness"?
quote:
But it seemed as though if I wanted I could have completely left my house and gone on an "awareness adventure" while my practices sort of "happened without me". Have you had this experience?
No and yes. Everything is always happening without the me. The me never does anything. It just thinks so....But the really funny thing is that neither does awareness do anything.....*lol*..... Everything happens of itself ....*lol*......*LOL*....... ...LOL...I am always in stiches when coming to this .....LOL.........*lol*.......OMG Carson....thank you for that.....
So.....*lol*....am trying to say that life always happens....just like that......the doership-thinking just gets in the way of perceiving it...that's all.
I experienced OBE's when a child......and did roam...off the bed....hovering in the ceiling...watching the body lying there....gliding out through the closed window.....above the electric tram chords...the trees.....floating past all the fancy figures on the roof facades..........and the freedom of the immense expanse of being free of the physical body was fantastic....but these experiences stopped.
So.....I know nothing of the astral body (I don't even know if that is what is called the "subtle body".....Ask Christi...he will know ).....know nothing of the causal body...I am sorry but i cannot advise you here, Carson....since I don't travel like that ...other than sometimes in bed....
All I can say is that even what you call the "awareness adventure"....is taking place within THAT. What is aware of the adventuring?......what is aware of deciding to "stay closer to the body"?....... Stay with that.......stay still when meditating.....if roaming happens.....don't log on ....but stay still...gently come back to the mantra with the attention (like you did)...as you said you could still feel the mantra vibrating in the space....come back to that.....
....roaming can always be enjoyed later.....when the substratum of it all is identified with.....
Sorry....can't advise you better, Carson
Let's hope someone else chimes in :-)
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2009 : 7:12:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I am sitting on the beach in meditation....the witness state arrives and I am just watching myself repeat the mantra and am not actually consciously causing this anymore. From this "vantage" point I can see the waves crashing on the shore but cannot see the ocean behind it. I decide I would like a better vantage point so I shift my awareness ten feet above myself....my meditation continues as it would if nothing had changed...but now I can see the ocean even though my body has not moved an inch. This is what I mean when I say that in the Witness state I do not seem to be bound by my normal preceptual limitations. Hope this makes a little sense and isn't complete babble.
that is pretty interesting
love to you brother
Neil
Love,
Carson
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2009 : 06:43:52 AM
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Maybe I understand this a little better.
Like I watch myself type theses words and get involved in a discussion. I watch myself choose what to do next as if from a distance.
I never really noticed that before, so it's not until it is pointed out that I realise I am doing this........have I always done this ?? or is this caused by DM ? |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2009 : 11:29:54 AM
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Good day Katrine.....Sorry it took me so long to respond to this, I missed it somehow....sorry.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
quote:
I suddenly found myself INSIDE my body....basically wandering around with my awareness inside my body cavity.
Amazing Carson..........have seen inside the body, but not in vivid 3d like here......that's great
It was very similar to one of my favorite trips when I was doing Ketamine every night. I used to get high and then watch my heart beating, my lungs inflating and deflating, study how all the organs "fit" together, etc etc.... But there are a few differences that intrigue me. Ketamine is classified as a "dissociative anaesthetic" and there are only 3 drugs in this catagory....Ketamine, PCP and DXM (dextro-methorphan-hydrobromide which is the active ingredient in most cough syrups, hence the names Robottussin "DM" and the likes) and Ketamine is still used today as an anaesthetic for children and small animals. Ketamine makes it so you don't feel your body at all, and doctors can then do invasive surgeries. Well, what I noticed in this particular experience, is that unlike on a Ketamine trip where the awareness leaves the body in the form of a ball of white light/consciousness and can no longer "feel" the body, while in SBP my awareness was not "attached" to the body, but I could still "feel" the body. I could still feel the energy going up and down the sushumna, I could still "feel" everything, yet my awareness was inside my body cavity experiencing things from there. I also did not percieve my awareness as a white ball of light. I couldn't "see" my awareness like on a K trip. On Ketamine I was always able to "see" my awareness. I could take a step back from the awareness and become aware of the awareness. I don't know how valid this experience is since I was on drugs, but in SBP I just WAS the awareness and was not able to percieve it as seperate from my consciousness, if that makes ANY sense .
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Have you asked: Who is aware of this "wandering around with my awareness"?
Yes I have inquired into this, but have never come to a satisfactory answer. I am still searching for the answer to this question.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
quote:
But it seemed as though if I wanted I could have completely left my house and gone on an "awareness adventure" while my practices sort of "happened without me". Have you had this experience?
No and yes. Everything is always happening without the me. The me never does anything. It just thinks so....But the really funny thing is that neither does awareness do anything.....*lol*..... Everything happens of itself ....*lol*......*LOL*..........LOL...I am always in stiches when coming to this .....LOL.........*lol*.......OMG Carson....thank you for that.....
Haha...... You didn't really answer my question though. Have you ever had the experience of the awareness not being attached to anything and is free to roam as it pleases, confined by no physical body? I don't mean have you tried to make this happen, but has this happened "of itself"?
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
So.....*lol*....am trying to say that life always happens....just like that......the doership-thinking just gets in the way of perceiving it...that's all.
So true.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
I experienced OBE's when a child......and did roam...off the bed....hovering in the ceiling...watching the body lying there....gliding out through the closed window.....above the electric tram chords...the trees.....floating past all the fancy figures on the roof facades..........and the freedom of the immense expanse of being free of the physical body was fantastic....but these experiences stopped.
Yes....this sounds very familiar....This is what I am talking about. Do you remember when these OBE's happened, if you could percieve the "shape" and "color" of your "awareness" or were you just "being" your awareness. Were you able to have the "awareness watching awareness" experience? I am really curious about this. (I know, mind trappings  )
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
So.....I know nothing of the astral body (I don't even know if that is what is called the "subtle body".....Ask Christi...he will know ).....know nothing of the causal body...I am sorry but i cannot advise you here, Carson....since I don't travel like that ...other than sometimes in bed....
I really don't care to define anything, I just care to validate that these experiences aren't straight up "mind trickery" I guess. I don't really care if what I am experiencing is being experienced as the "astral body" or the "causal body" or whatever, I just want to be sure that this is just scenery along the way and not my mind trying to trick me into thinking I am somewhere I am not.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
All I can say is that even what you call the "awareness adventure"....is taking place within THAT. What is aware of the adventuring?......what is aware of deciding to "stay closer to the body"?....... Stay with that.......stay still when meditating.....if roaming happens.....don't log on ....but stay still...gently come back to the mantra with the attention (like you did)...as you said you could still feel the mantra vibrating in the space....come back to that.....
The weird thing is Katrine, that I am never "away" from anything despite the fact that my awareness is no longer attached to the physical body. I am still in total awareness of everything happening to my person. Even though I could be in the next room watching TV while my body continues on with it's practices. (not that I would do that, just that I think this is possible) What I mean is, despite the fact that I may be watching my heart beating from inside my chest cavity, I am still doing, and feeling SBP(or the mantra) happening without any effort. It just continues and "I" can just BE. I don't know much about being "THAT" and I don't understand or have much personal experience with being aware of this that is aware, so I guess I can't really say what "is aware of the adventuring".
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
....roaming can always be enjoyed later.....when the substratum of it all is identified with.....
Yeah I agree. I'm not too concerned with going on "adventures" during my practices, I was mostly just wondering if this actually is the Witness state or if I am just fooling myself.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Sorry....can't advise you better, Carson
Don't be sorry, your advice is always well headed and greatly appreciated. Thank you and much love.
Love,
Carson |
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ciuin
Ireland
1 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2009 : 7:25:10 PM
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Namaste CarsonZi,
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
But yesterday during my afternoon session I realized that perhaps I am either not actually in the witness state or that there must be different "levels" or "stages" of the witness.
Who (or what) is it that is witnessing? Look deeper!
quote:
I find that I am not "doing" anything anymore and that my practices are "doing me". I can sort of relax and watch myself "going through the motions".
Who is this "me" that the practices are being done to? Are you the motions or the one witnessing? And can you go deeper with this?
quote:
But yesterday I realized that there must be different levels of the witness state because I noticed that I will only be witnessing certain aspects of what is going on and am not witnessing "the whole".
Don't analyse! Just simply be and look -- what is here in this moment? Try to disengange the mind. Space opens up eventually.
quote:
So my confusion I guess is around whether or not I am deluding myself into thinking that I am experiencing the witness state.
Of course you are confused, because you are believing your own thoughts, and fabricating that experience. You are trying to define a sky (awareness) in terms of clouds (mind stuff).
quote:
Is it possible to be witnessing only certain aspects of one's situation in this state, or if you are truly experiencing life as the witness are you aware of everything happening around you? Sorry if this seems like a stupid question. Thanks for any input.
Witnessing is awareness becoming aware of itself. It is the cinema screen on which the film and story of your life (and universe) is projected onto. It is always here, you are just not always fully aware of here (or yourself)! :-) Relax, relax, relax -- you can't "get into" the witness state. Neti, neti -- what is left?
quote:
It seems to me that it is not possible to have any "intentions" while in the witness state. So that would make everything (not just yoga) done in this state "automatic" right? Is this a flawed view?
One may think of the witness as God, the impartial observer. God loves everything just the way it is, without interfering. Of course, reality is non-dual, so there is only one - "I".
Who is to say everything is not already done automatically? You are assuming that the person you think you are is the one in charge, in control of everything. Loose control. Look deeper! The body and the mind you associate with can look after itself without "you" in charge.
There is only one!
Keep up the good meditation practices and try not to overanalyse, just go with the flow, relax and enquire!
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2009 : 1:27:13 PM
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Hi Carson
quote:
Haha...... You didn't really answer my question though. Have you ever had the experience of the awareness not being attached to anything and is free to roam as it pleases, confined by no physical body? I don't mean have you tried to make this happen, but has this happened "of itself"?
Didn't answer your question..*lol*....true.....am in clarity now....let's split it up (hope that's ok..)
Have you ever had the experience of the awareness not being attached to anything
Yes. Every day.
As the space that shines.....I am not attached to any object....this will come out in many ways....f.ex...today....when walking.....the houses.....the cars....and everything that takes place....are seen as props. It is just like being on stage in the theatre....none of it is real....and yet I perceive the spaceshine within it....it is the shine that holds everything together....but the shine is the only realness of what I am looking at.....
When looking at myself in a mirror....I perceive the body the same way.....the shine in the room is what I am.....not the flesh in the mirror.....the only exception are the eyes.....when looking into them.....I always start to laugh.....*LOL*........*lol*.....sorry...
.............
*********************lol************************
sorry....I am mad *LOL*.....just writing about it brings this on.....LOL*....
There has been way to much seriousness here, see.....years and years of seriousness......so when the laugh is like that.....there is so much enjoying of it.......and sometimes it doesn't stop for a while...
Yes....
and is free to roam as it pleases, confined by no physical body?
It roams not, Carson. It doesn't have to....no travelling is necessary. It is already not confined by the physical body. It is as if one is all over the place at the same time...perceiving within the body and outside of the body.....but since the vision is not fully developped here (Ajna is being worked on)...what is perceived is simply this fact that I am all over the place....yet cannot see myself....the instant there is trying...or contraction around this intention.....there is veiling of what I am.....so am just relaxing into myself....and though I see the shine.....I am what is behind it.....this has taken me up until now to really grasp.....that it can never be grasped. It is like being a huge....eye....just like that....and how can I possibly see myself if I am that eye ? Yet there is direct knowing of it....without any image.....and the direct knowing of it also knows many other things....it is like a wordless and also imageless inner knowing....I guess you could call it intuition...but it is not quite right. Almost like that....except more certain...because it is like a real taste of everything....
I don't mean have you tried to make this happen, but has this happened "of itself"?
and it is this (the discription above) that happens of itself....when relaxing into myself....(which is the same as letting go...)
When you say you can see your awareness....then it sounds like you are separate from it....so what makes you say it is the awareness...does what you are looking at feel aware?
quote:
Do you remember when these OBE's happened, if you could percieve the "shape" and "color" of your "awareness" or were you just "being" your awareness. Were you able to have the "awareness watching awareness" experience?
I perceived the "shape" and "colour" of something that was...like a different body....a see through body....a light body.....that is why I gather this was the subtle body....but I know nothing of these lables, see....
Awareness......is aware of itself. Without looking. It is a direct knowing.....not something one sees. At least.... that is the experience here....
What is seen...the shine.....the 3Dness.....is...like a result of...this being aware of oneself....as that nothingness....
Gosh, Carson....this is impossible to put right into words....sorry if it doesn't make any sense.....I don't understand any of it myself....whenever there was striving to understand...it veiled itself again.....much easier to be relaxed in the not-knowing.....
These two...is the only thing I understand:
I will never understand it...so can relax always
Everything happens of itself......jiippiii
And when I am being a stubborn viking....there is temporarily forgetting of it....until the bang on the head happens...........
.....
......and this way I am gonged back into alignement.....
Thanks for asking this question, Carson
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 27 2009 : 11:51:56 AM
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Namaste ciuin and welcome to the AYP forums!
quote:
Originally posted by ciuin
Who (or what) is it that is witnessing? Look deeper!
As I said to Katrine above, I really don't "know" how to do this.... Everytime I go looking for that which is aware, all I come up with is my awareness. Which isn't located anywhere, which has no properites, which cannot be defined. This whole "awareness watching awareness" sends me into loops of confusion. I'm sure it is just where I am at on my journey and that someday this will clear itself up.
quote:
Originally posted by ciuin
Who is this "me" that the practices are being done to?
In this sentence I am referring to the physical body as "me".
quote:
Originally posted by ciuin
Are you the motions or the one witnessing? And can you go deeper with this?
I am the motions, the one percieving the motions and the one the motions are done to.
quote:
Originally posted by ciuin
Don't analyse! Just simply be and look -- what is here in this moment? Try to disengange the mind. Space opens up eventually.
Yes, I know....... The reason I was asking this question though was because I was confused. And when confusion is seen for what it is, then it is understood and can be left behind easily. Yes, I know one does not need to know everything to be able to leave things behind, but sometimes it is just easier with some issues to figure it out with the mind and then let go, then to try to let go before figuring it out. Know what I mean? Usually if I try to let go before I fully investigate, the issue will surface again later for investigation. Why not work things out as they surface the first time?
quote:
Originally posted by ciuin
Of course you are confused, because you are believing your own thoughts, and fabricating that experience.
And those thoughts I am believing are....? What I was trying to figure out with this thread was whether or not what I was experiencing was what others call "the witness state". My reason for asking for clarification was because there were some discrepencies between the state I was experiencing and the way others describe the witness state. I'm not sure which thoughts I should not be believing here....perhaps you can enlighten me.
quote:
Originally posted by ciuin
You are trying to define a sky (awareness) in terms of clouds (mind stuff).
Yes, definitions always seem to be an issue with esoteric, metaphysical and spiritual experiences.
quote:
Originally posted by ciuin
Witnessing is awareness becoming aware of itself.
I guess I could see it like that. I more percieved it to be my awareness detaching from the physical body though....that is how it seemed to me.
quote:
Originally posted by ciuin
It is the cinema screen on which the film and story of your life (and universe) is projected onto. It is always here, you are just not always fully aware of here (or yourself)! :-) Relax, relax, relax -- you can't "get into" the witness state. Neti, neti -- what is left?
I don't try to get into the Witness state. It always happens of itself.
quote:
Originally posted by ciuin
One may think of the witness as God, the impartial observer. God loves everything just the way it is, without interfering. Of course, reality is non-dual, so there is only one - "I".
Yes.
quote:
Originally posted by ciuin
Who is to say everything is not already done automatically? You are assuming that the person you think you are is the one in charge, in control of everything. Loose control. Look deeper! The body and the mind you associate with can look after itself without "you" in charge.
I agree that there is a "master plan", but I also know that we have "free will". This is another one of those divine paradox's. There would be no point in us being here if EVERYTHING was automatic and we had no control at all. I agree it is a good idea to lose the thought that we are IN control (of everything), but we also have to remember that we are still responsible for ourselves. We need to surrender but stay responsible. A paradox I know.
quote:
Originally posted by ciuin
Keep up the good meditation practices and try not to overanalyse, just go with the flow, relax and enquire!
Thank you, will do. And again, welcome to the forum!
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 27 2009 : 12:44:01 PM
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Namaste Katrine! Hope you had a blissful weekend and that you didn't get a foot of snow like we did here in Calgary! Arg Haha.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Have you ever had the experience of the awareness not being attached to anything
Yes. Every day.
As the space that shines.....I am not attached to any object....this will come out in many ways....f.ex...today....when walking.....the houses.....the cars....and everything that takes place....are seen as props. It is just like being on stage in the theatre....none of it is real....and yet I perceive the spaceshine within it....it is the shine that holds everything together....but the shine is the only realness of what I am looking at.....
When looking at myself in a mirror....I perceive the body the same way.....the shine in the room is what I am.....not the flesh in the mirror.....the only exception are the eyes.....when looking into them.....I always start to laugh.....*LOL*........*lol*.....sorry...
I think you took my sentence quoted above in the wrong context.... What I was meaning was not whether or not you had had the experience of not being "mindfully" attached to anything with the awareness, but whether or not you had experienced having the awareness being "unbound" from the body. Whether you could (while in the Witness state) leave the body to automatically act on it's own, and venture off with the awareness....
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
There has been way to much seriousness here, see.....years and years of seriousness......so when the laugh is like that.....there is so much enjoying of it.......and sometimes it doesn't stop for a while...
I can actually relate to this. My entire life up until I started AYP was as serious as it gets. I took EVERYTHING personally and very very seriously. And now, I end up laughing when my wife is crying because I have inadvertantly hurt her.... Seems so wrong but is really very liberating. Offensive to some people in certain states of mind, but sometimes I just can't help it. It happens of itself.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
and is free to roam as it pleases, confined by no physical body?
It roams not, Carson. It doesn't have to....no travelling is necessary. It is already not confined by the physical body. It is as if one is all over the place at the same time...perceiving within the body and outside of the body.....
Yes, I can see what you mean. For me there is a choice. And I am trying to keep the decisions conscious. I can choose to stay and Witness, or I can venture off into the astral realms. Or stay in the physical realm with my "astral body" of whatever. But I can totally relate to the "It is as if one is all over the place at the same time..."
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
but since the vision is not fully developped here (Ajna is being worked on)...what is perceived is simply this fact that I am all over the place....yet cannot see myself....the instant there is trying...or contraction around this intention.....there is veiling of what I am.....so am just relaxing into myself....
Can you explain what you mean by this sentence? It could be taken in so many different ways..."what is perceived is simply this fact that I am all over the place....yet cannot see myself". I agree that as soon as there is "trying" the veiling returns. It is the same here. As soon as you attach to the state (or even think about it really) it is gone.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
and though I see the shine.....I am what is behind it.....this has taken me up until now to really grasp.....that it can never be grasped. It is like being a huge....eye....just like that....and how can I possibly see myself if I am that eye ? Yet there is direct knowing of it....without any image.....and the direct knowing of it also knows many other things....it is like a wordless and also imageless inner knowing....I guess you could call it intuition...but it is not quite right. Almost like that....except more certain...because it is like a real taste of everything....
Yes...very hard to put into words isn't it. Knowing that you know, yet not being able to describe how you know. Can be frustrating if you let it be.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
When you say you can see your awareness....then it sounds like you are separate from it....so what makes you say it is the awareness...does what you are looking at feel aware?
I wasn't speaking very clearly when I said that. I don't mean that my awareness is watching my awareness....I have yet to really know that experience....but what I meant was that my awareness is able to "see" the mind's awareness. And disassociate from that. So I guess there are two awarenessess....the mind's awareness and the awareness that is aware ofthe mind's awareness...if that makes ANY sense....(it doesn't even really to me and I'm writing it! Yikes!)
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Do you remember when these OBE's happened, if you could percieve the "shape" and "color" of your "awareness" or were you just "being" your awareness. Were you able to have the "awareness watching awareness" experience?
I perceived the "shape" and "colour" of something that was...like a different body....a see through body....a light body.....that is why I gather this was the subtle body....but I know nothing of these lables, see....
There are two different OBE experiences that I can differentiate between...one in which it is like how you describe, one which is viewed with the Etheric body (or whatever one might call this...I have never seen my Etheric body though, and it is sort of like the "eye knowing it is an eye" example you used above), and then there is one where I am not a body in any way. I am pure white light, in the shape of a sphere/ball, where there is no defining "edge" to the light, it just fades into less light on the edges. (there has only been one time when I actually saw this ball of light though, and it was with my physical eyes as it left the crown of my head...then my vision WAS the ball of light and not the eyes....again if that makes ANY sense...finding it extra hard to put this all to words today)
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Awareness......is aware of itself. Without looking. It is a direct knowing.....not something one sees. At least.... that is the experience here....
Yes absolutely agreed.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
What is seen...the shine.....the 3Dness.....is...like a result of...this being aware of oneself....as that nothingness....
Still don't "know" the shine as you call it. Perhaps I have a different word for it....I find it hard to understand exactly what "the shine" is to you.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Gosh, Carson....this is impossible to put right into words....
Good! Glad I'm not the only one!!! Haha.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
[sorry if it doesn't make any sense.....I don't understand any of it myself....whenever there was striving to understand...it veiled itself again.....much easier to be relaxed in the not-knowing.....
Ditto.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
These two...is the only thing I understand:
I will never understand it...so can relax always
Everything happens of itself......jiippiii
Yes indeed...a wonderful motto to live by!
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
And when I am being a stubborn viking....there is temporarily forgetting of it....until the bang on the head happens...........
.....
Thank God for a good swift knock on the head every once in a while!
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
......and this way I am gonged back into alignement.....
Gooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnggggg! haha.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Thanks for asking this question, Carson
Thanks for taking the time to try and answer a question that isn't really answerable! Much love my friend!
Love,
Carson
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 27 2009 : 4:01:07 PM
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Namaste Carson
No snow here now thank God
quote:
And now, I end up laughing when my wife is crying because I have inadvertantly hurt her.... Seems so wrong but is really very liberating.
One of my daughters....she can laugh like that ....exactly like you explained it.....she too had to really force herself to behave like a normal (conditioned) being....I am sorry I was so unaware at the time.....
quote:
but since the vision is not fully developped here (Ajna is being worked on)...what is perceived is simply this fact that I am all over the place....yet cannot see myself....
I mean that since I do not see my subtle body...or astral body or whatever....this type of being "free from the body" did not get a chance to be a distraction...So then the jump from having felt myself to be the physical body and then one day suddenly being uncovered as being just...nothingness.....it was such a totally...intimately alien...and yet completely real experience.....To know...without looking.
quote:
What I was meaning was not whether or not you had had the experience of not being "mindfully" attached to anything with the awareness, but whether or not you had experienced having the awareness being "unbound" from the body. Whether you could (while in the Witness state) leave the body to automatically act on it's own, and venture off with the awareness....
Yes....sorry for being daft.....*lol*......the context differ here :-)
Will ramble a bit now....(sorry Carson  ):
It is exactly the fact of being "unbound" from the body that is here.......without moving an inch. Unboundedness.....even though the attention (wonder if this is what you call "the mind's awareness"....attention is just a mind quality...not awareness)....attention can be on an object.....the unboundedness is still obvious....the attention is taking place within what I am....the attention is surrounded by space......
I don't experience leaving the body to automatically act on it's own. What I experience is that the body is already acting on its own......the acting happens of itself. So this is a fact... whether staying or leaving. Just like it does when sleeping...except that the so called "willfullness" during daytime is also not done by anyone. Nobody is actually doing anything....that is why this is so hard to explain. The only thing the "me"...or the identification with the attention......or with the lightbody (soul?)......is "doing"....is being "in the way" of this perceiving.....it is the identification with the "doing" .....just the very swimming along with it....be it with...or without the body....it is this "swimming along" that is taken to be "control". But it is not. It is illusion. It is the "swimming along" that is the "free will"....that choice to identify this way. That's all. All else is a result of this choice....but there is no "swimmer"....and no "chooser"......see? Paradox....upon paradox....but only if identified with "go figure"...*lol*....
I cannot leave my body at will like you....or rather...I can...but only through the crown...and I am told I am not prepared properly for that But I have so far had no desire to leave the body to roam........there are enough objects to detach from in this dimension....not to speak of all the others :-).....it is so easy to get attached here, see....am hopeless this way (what if I fall in love with an angel? )...*lol*...... However........this is not up for voting....whenever life finds it proper...there will be roaming within other dimensions. But it is as if the nothingness....it is already as if nothing compares to essence anyway......nothing compares to this peace...this love....but actually seeing....and actually interacting with beings in other dimensions...sounds a lot of ....awsome, sacred....FUN *lol*
Also....during the healings....the room is thick with love from other...beings. I don't see them.....but I perceive them (I call it..."the love thickens"....with other frequences...hues). The clients see them, though.....very often. So...other dimensions...are coming here....and all is well.
It is wonderful that you can travel like that Carson....amazing what you can see. I look forward to hearing of your travels one day :-)(who knows..maybe we'll meet *lol* on the highway..*lol*...you in a Porche..or Firebird.....and me in a rusty old Honda (my first car...when i lived in Austin....got attached to that one too...*lol*)
Just remember that it is YOU....the seer of it...that is the peace.....If you see awareness as an object...be it light or anything.......then it is not you as essence. Know that.
The Shine is simply clear, clear light that..."comes off" everything I look at. Including space. The shine lives..sometimes there are added qualities. It can be joyshine...it can be loveshine...it can be laughshine....or it is only just chrystalshine....it took a long time before perceiving that even this was not the essence.....I see it.....but I am it.....and that which I am....not a letter....not a syllable...much less a word...can be said about it. I understand it not at all.
Carson....sorry for once again having not answered your question.....*lol*....
am hopeless....
Much love to you too |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Apr 27 2009 : 4:06:28 PM
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Hi,and sorry for the break in conversation:
"Also....during the healings....the room is thick with love from other...beings. I don't see them.....but I perceive them (I call it..."the love thickens"....with other frequences...hues). The clients see them, though.....very often. So...other dimensions...are coming here....and all is well."
What a wonderful channel you must be Katrine.Thanks for sharing this.
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Different "Levels" of the Witness?
