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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 26 2009 : 2:30:10 PM
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Namaste Friends....
First off let me say that I know that there are several other threads on the forum dealing with this subject, but I wanted to start a new one specifically dealing with the proper use (if there is one) of hallucinogens, and addressing the recent lesson on Hallucinogens and Yoga that Yogani posted on Feb 19th here: http://www.aypsite.org/307.html
In particular I would like to discuss this particular paragraph here:
quote:
"Are drugs an aid in ongoing yoga practice? If there is any initial benefit found in the artificial experience produced by drugs, then the repetition of that experience is not likely to take us further. To assume so is a flight of fancy – the magic bullet syndrome. In the case of continuing with hallucinogenic drugs to recreate a particular kind of experience, we will be producing the opposite effect underneath – adding to the obstructions lodged deep within our nervous system."
I know many of you will abstain from this topic and that is fine. I would actually prefer to mainly discourse on what could be positive uses for hallucinogens within Yoga and discuss how to go about finding out what these are, rather then focus on whether or not this is even possible. But as always, all opinions are greatly appreciated.
Second, I will list the few hallucinogens that I feel could be of potential use to a Yogi.....(this is just my list, others' may differ)
1. Ayahausca (both the DMT containing brews as well as brews containing only Banisteriopsis Caapi vine)
2. Psylocibin producing mushrooms
3. Ibogaine
4. DMT (taken either intranasally via crushed Perigrina(sp?) species seeds, or smoked via an extract of Mimosa Hostilis root bark or an equivalent natural DMT source)
5. LSD-25 (I may take flack on this from some as this is not naturally available in a form that isn't totally fatal to injest, but with modern sciences capabilities this substance IS available and I do believe that there can be benefits to the use of this substance if used properly)
6. Ketamine (again I may take flack over this as this is totally man-made, but until you have actually tried this drug in the right dose, setting and mind-set you will never truly understand why I put this on here, but it truly deserves a spot here IMO)
7. Cannibas (not really a hallucinogen persay, although it is classified as one in the Federal Drug Schedule, but I will include it here as I believe there can be some benefit to it's use as well)
8. Opiates (again these are not necessarily hallucinogens, and these are pretty much borderline useful in my mind, but I do believe that there is probably a proper use for these as well. Why else would God put poppies on Earth? )
Ok. Now with that out of the way, I would like to address the quoted paragraph from the Hallucinogens and Yoga lesson.
quote:
"If there is any initial benefit found in the artificial experience produced by drugs, then the repetition of that experience is not likely to take us further.......we will be producing the opposite effect underneath – adding to the obstructions lodged deep within our nervous system"
This makes sense.....if you are approaching your use with the expectation of it taking you further. But what about going into the experience without expectations and instead going into the experience with an open mind and an open heart, hoping to learn as much as possible from yourself in a different state of being. Somewhat similar to the way we go into meditation. I learn SO much about myself when I make the decision to use one of the above listed hallucinogens. I do not do it for the experience, nor to recreate a previous experience. I do this as a way of learning about myself and about God. And I find it very effective. (personally)
For example......Not too long ago, on February's Friday the 13th, my wife came home from work and asked if I would like to do some LSD. Normally I would have said no, but earlier that day I had had a nudge to "drop tab" as well (which is unusual for me these days), so I agreed. We didn't have any specific plans, and this wasn't really a planned event, (which is why it was unusual for me to say yes...usually I prefer to plan far in advance and do this on a solstice or something) but we decided to go ahead with it anyways. Now, I used to have a REALLY extensive drug collection. Still have what most people would consider a large collection, but it is a fraction of what it used to be (gave lots away, used lots, and never repurchased what I no longer had). But in my collection I still have a vial of probably the best liquid LSD-25 on the planet today. (it is very very VERY hard to make LSD and most people would be correct in saying that there hasn't been pure LSD-25 circulating since the US government banned it.) But the stuff I have is just like the stuff from the 60's. So clean you can fall asleep right in the middle of a trip. And for anyone who has done LSD before you know that would be next to impossible on most of the acid available today. Anyways, the vial of stuff I have, I have had for a couple of years now. It originally came with about 500 hits in it. But in order to "dose" I had to dilute it with Vodka so that a single drop would equal a single "hit". (about 100ug/micrograms) I did the dilution several years ago when I had originally purchased the product and I stored it in a cool, dark, wooden box. So....my wife and I decide to take 2 drops each....this is what we would normally take on an evening we decided to imbibe. What I did not realize (until about 45 minutes later) was that most of the vodka used to dilute the LSD had evaporated since the last time we took it(maybe a year ago-ish). There is no way to tell for sure exactly how many hits we took, but it was somewhere between 8 and 20 doses each. WAY more then we had intended or would ever consciously take without MAJOR spiritual preparations. Anyways, within about 45 minutes I was feeling it strongly. I looked at my wife to see if she was feeling it and her face morphed and melted within seconds. We had a brief conversation about how we thought we had taken more then intended and she decided she wanted to wash the dishes to stay centred and I decided to hit the meditation cushion for the same reasons. There is no way to describe what I learned over the course of the next 3 hours I spent in meditation. I saw the creation of the Universe and the Earth, I saw and relived my own birth both spiritual and physical, I could go on and on about the things I saw and the things I learned, but words really do it no justice so I won't.
Some people might say, "Yeah, yeah, that's all fine and dandy, but when the acid wore off, you probably felt like ass and were worse off then you were before you took it." Maybe for some people that is true, but not for me in any way, shape or form. I am still reaping the benefits from that day. I could go on and on about what is different now, but I don't want to come off as promoting the use of drugs as a mode of self-realization. I am not trying to do that. My main point of posting this thread is to try and discover through conversation, what is the proper way to approach the use of hallucinogens. If you take Ketamine, LSD and smokable DMT off my list above, everything else grows naturally on Earth and has a LONG history of (repeated) injestion for spiritual purposes. Granted that most of the people using these plants were "shamans" and were doing it for the benefit of the community, (and I am not claiming I am a shaman, I know I am not) but I too seem to gain greatly everytime I "happen" to make the decision to partake of a hallucinogenic substance. Personally I find that I benefit from EVERY situation that occurs in my life, whether that be positive or negative, (I learn from everyone and everthing that happens around me) and the ingestion of a hallucinogenic substance doesn't seem to be any different.
So, if we can get to the point where we can agree that using hallucinogenic substances can be beneficial, then we can move on to the subject of "How often is it appropriate to use them?" or, "What signifies an appropriate time to use one of these substances?" And then we can even venture into the area of "What substances are best to use in any certain circumstance?"
Hope we can have some adult, non emotional, conversation on this.
Love,
Carson
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Edited by - CarsonZi on Mar 26 2009 2:51:35 PM |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2009 : 6:26:52 PM
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Hi Carson my friend, lovely topic
I've been asking the same questions for more then ten years, and fortunately, I also found very satisfactory answers to them.
quote:
But what about going into the experience without expectations and instead going into the experience with an open mind and an open heart, hoping to learn as much as possible from yourself in a different state of being. Somewhat similar to the way we go into meditation. I learn SO much about myself when I make the decision to use one of the above listed hallucinogens. I do not do it for the experience, nor to recreate a previous experience. I do this as a way of learning about myself and about God. And I find it very effective. (personally)
I agree with you 100%. Psychedelic drugs, used in a proper way, offer a huge heuristic and healing potential.
There is no way how one could recreate a particular pleasant experience by using a psychedelic drug anyway. LSD is not cocaine, and does not induce any fixed kind of experience. Every time you use it, you will get different material. And you will get as much complicated, painful and dark content, as you will get pleasurable or ecstatic experience. Therefore I believe that Yogani's statement "In the case of continuing with hallucinogenic drugs to recreate a particular kind of experience, we will be producing the opposite effect underneath – adding to the obstructions lodged deep within our nervous system." is misleading. This applies surely to some other kinds of psychoactive substances (and the obsessive kind of using them, which they typically produce), but can't be true for psychedelic drugs (LSD) for the above reason.
Carson, there are quality answers to all your questions out there. Extensive research has been made on the healing and heuristic potential of LSD, and specific, highly sophisticated methods of using it properly have been developed. Also, substitute methods for entering deeply altered states of mind without any substances have been developed. A broad map of all kinds of psychedelic experiences has been presented (actually, your experiences with your own birth are well recognized and are very important for your spiritual growth - you can get an amazing reference framework for them in the books I'm about to recommend to you.) Thousands of LSD sessions have been analyzed, and reports have been recorded........ The results of this research are amazing (No exaggerated emotions - they truly are), and have been playing a significant role in the opening of the west to the spiritual dimension of life.
Imo, Carson, if you and your wife are inclined to use psychedelic drugs for the purpose of spiritual growth and healing, you need to get familiar with the work of Stanislav Grof M.D,Ph.D. He is the no.1. authority on LSD and the research of non-ordinary states of mind. I studied his work for about 8 years.
Here a quick list of his major works:
LSD Psychotherapy
Beyond the Brain - Birth,Death,Transcendence
The Adventure of Self-Discovery
Psychology of the Future - Lessons from Modern Consciousness Research
The Cosmic Game
among many.....
Stanislav Grof at the World Psychedelic Forum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnO0jn5CPMU
Stan Grof on LSD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6QEVaXnMWs
The "Psychology of the Future" lecture:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_li...next_from=PL
As to your questions:
How often is it appropriate to use them?
Well, I don't have access to pure LSD. What I choose to do is Holotropic Breathwork, which is a method developed also by Grof and his wife Christina, which produces similar effects as LSD. People typically do it 4 - 5 times a year. Interestingly, in one way, it is much lighter than a LSD trip - it lasts for 2-3 hours (max. 4-5 rarely), but on the other hand I experienced a handful of HB sessions that influenced my life extremely dramatically (positively), more then any LSD trip I've ever done.
What signifies an appropriate time to use one of these substances?
1. Personal intuition. Your body tells you when the time's come, and one develops a good sensitivity to this signal with practice (yes, practice  )
2.Availability of proper set&setting. (Safe,supportive,loving environment, with supervision and helpers, providing also theoretical framework, and much more... This has been carefully and beautifully developed by GTT - Grof Transpersonal Training association, based on 40+ years of experience.)
What substances are best to use in any certain circumstance?
LSD has been found to provide best material for consciousness research. However, 1) it's illegal 2) virtually all people who tried non-drug methods prefer them, because it's much more comfortable for everyday life. Works simply better in practical terms. 3) you often have no chance to find out what the heck exactly is in that paper...
Take care, brother!
Roman |
Edited by - mimirom on Mar 27 2009 7:07:11 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2009 : 12:07:08 PM
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Namaste Roman and thank you for conversing on this topic....
quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
There is no way how one could recreate a particular pleasant experience by using a psychedelic drug anyway. LSD is not cocaine, and does not induce any fixed kind of experience.
True for LSD and every other drug on my list other than opiates and cannibas. And I am now actually on the fence as to whether I was correct in adding these two to my list. I think now that I should have stuck with hallucinogens. Sure there are likely proper uses for both cannibas and opiates, but after thinking about this fairly in-depth I have come to the conclusion that these have useful purposes but that these purposes are likely not as spiritual as I had originally indicated. Opiates can cause some pretty wicked spiritual visions, but I hesitate now to keep these on my list. Same with cannibas. There are proper uses for this plant, but I don't know if they are spiritual anymore. Just like there are propbably proper uses for "drugs" like ginseng and ephedra etc, but they too are likely not so spiritual.
quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
Every time you use it, you will get different material. And you will get as much complicated, painful and dark content, as you will get pleasurable or ecstatic experience.
Absolutely. Doing ayahausca or high dose mushrooms etc is never "fun". But I have always benefitted from doing this. In fact, I think the "bad trips" hold more value then not so bad trips. Bad trips force you to look at areas of your life and personality that you often do NOT want to acknowledge exist. But in that state of mind there is no place to hide. You have to face ugly realities sometimes and it hurts. But I always come out a better person in the end. Struggle creates opening.
quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
Therefore I believe that Yogani's statement "In the case of continuing with hallucinogenic drugs to recreate a particular kind of experience, we will be producing the opposite effect underneath – adding to the obstructions lodged deep within our nervous system." is misleading. This applies surely to some other kinds of psychoactive substances (and the obsessive kind of using them, which they typically produce), but can't be true for psychedelic drugs (LSD) for the above reason.
Yeah, this was my main issue with that statement as well. What about changing the sentence to say "In the case of continuing with hallucinogenic drugs to learn about oneself and grow spiritually....."? THEN what kind of effect does it have on the nervous system? In my experience (and that is something that noone can take away from me or discredit) it has a purifying effect not one of adding further obstructions.
quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
Carson, there are quality answers to all your questions out there. Extensive research has been made on the healing and heuristic potential of LSD, and specific, highly sophisticated methods of using it properly have been developed.
Believe me Roman my friend. I have read everything written by Grof, Hoffman, Strassman, etc etc...I have read all the studies done on Ayahausca, Ketamine, MDMA, LSD, DMT, Ibogaine/Tabernathe Iboga, cannibas etc etc. Every medical study done on psychoactive drugs I have read. Quite extensively. This was my area of expertise for many many years.
quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
Imo, Carson, if you and your wife are inclined to use psychedelic drugs for the purpose of spiritual growth and healing, you need to get familiar with the work of Stanislav Grof M.D,Ph.D. He is the no.1. authority on LSD and the research of non-ordinary states of mind. I studied his work for about 8 years.
Thanks buddy.....I have read all his books, and even own several.
My favorite was the Adventure of Self Discovery. And LSD is usually NOT the hallucinogen of choice when my wife and I decide to partake. Both of us would way rather take mushrooms then LSD. My favorite is Ayahausca with half the usual amount of DMT and a little extra Harmaline. A recipe for clairvoyance IMO.
quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
Stanislav Grof at the World Psychedelic Forum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnO0jn5CPMU
Stan Grof on LSD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6QEVaXnMWs
The "Psychology of the Future" lecture:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_li...next_from=PL
Wish I could watch youtube videos. Sorry can't comment on these since I can't watch them.
quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
How often is it appropriate to use them?
Well, I don't have access to pure LSD. What I choose to do is Holotropic Breathwork, which is a method developed also by Grof and his wife Christina, which produces similar effects as LSD. People typically do it 4 - 5 times a year. Interestingly, in one way, it is much lighter than a LSD trip - it lasts for 2-3 hours (max. 4-5 rarely), but on the other hand I experienced a handful of HB sessions that influenced my life extremely dramatically (positively), more then any LSD trip I've ever done.
I have heard of HB before but I have never done it myself. I am a little intrigued now. I will have a read through what I can on this, as natural methods are always preferable to external methods IMO.
quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
What signifies an appropriate time to use one of these substances?
1. Personal intuition. Your body tells you when the time's come, and one develops a good sensitivity to this signal with practice (yes, practice )
2.Availability of proper set&setting. (Safe,supportive,loving environment, with supervision and helpers, providing also theoretical framework, and much more... This has been carefully and beautifully developed by GTT - Grof Transpersonal Training association, based on 40+ years of experience.)
Pretty much how I would have answered.
quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
What substances are best to use in any certain circumstance?
LSD has been found to provide best material for consciousness research.
I would definitely debate this. I think each one of the substances in my list have specific spiritual ailments that they are appropriate as a remedy for. I think it is unwise to generalize and say that LSD is the best in all situations. Experience with every substance on my list tells me this. YMMV
quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
However, 1) it's illegal 2) virtually all people who tried non-drug methods prefer them, because it's much more comfortable for everyday life. Works simply better in practical terms. 3) you often have no chance to find out what the heck exactly is in that paper...
Haha. Well, I guess some of us are more connected than others. Haha. I know for sure my LSD is pure LSD-25. (it's not on paper either;)) Am excited to learn more about Holotropic Breathwork. Thank you for the conversation.
Love,
Carson |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2009 : 12:24:58 PM
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Hey Carson,
What do you think of salvia divinorum? I recently have been thinking of trying www.salviazone.com "green" variety. I liked how when I did it previously, after the trip I would come down to be very sober and clear minded. I often joke that it was the drug which caused me to stop doing drugs. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2009 : 12:54:21 PM
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Hi Scott....
I find Salvia D of limited usefullness. It is similar to DMT in that it often "knocks" you into a completely different reality, but I find that the ability to work on oneself or the ability to gain anything of value from a Salvia trip very minimal. DMT is much more useful in this way. Salvia is VERY jarring and very difficult to get used to, which makes it difficult to work oneself up to taking a trip with it. I found that with Salvia, the first 10-20 times were kinda fun and interesting, but usually as you get used to a substance you start to push the dose range in order to get to the next "level" or to see what else a substance holds within....but after you cross a certain threshold with Salvia it becomes VERY difficult to want to trip again at that level (or any level really). After a few particularly distrubing Salvia trips I got to a point where it would literally take me several months of preparations before I could even get close to the thought of wanting to do it again. It's just too freakin' scary and jolting and doesn't hold much spiritual benefit in return. Once in "Salvia-land" everything is often so confusing that it is impossible to do any worthwhile Self-Inquiry. I have lived whole other lives in a 7-10 minute Salvia trip, but it was so confusing the whole time that I gained little to nothing from it. Also, I find the "Salvia entities" total "trixters" in comparison to the "DMT entities". The DMT entities seem to be there to help, and to show you "the way", and the Salvia entities seem to be there to confuse you and create obstructions more then remove them and create clarity. But that said, I can understand why you would say that coming down can make you feel very sober and clear-minded. I agree whole-heartedly with that. Coming down from Salvia I find to be ecstatic. Mostly because I am glad it is over though. Not because I have learned so much about myself and I feel I am a better person. Very different from the ecstacy I get when ON other hallucinogens. And yeah, I can see why you would say Salvia was the drug that caused you to stop doing drugs. It could do that to a person no problem.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Mar 30 2009 12:56:42 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2009 : 2:28:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Ok. Now with that out of the way, I would like to address the quoted paragraph from the Hallucinogens and Yoga lesson.
quote:
"If there is any initial benefit found in the artificial experience produced by drugs, then the repetition of that experience is not likely to take us further.......we will be producing the opposite effect underneath – adding to the obstructions lodged deep within our nervous system"
This makes sense.....if you are approaching your use with the expectation of it taking you further. But what about going into the experience without expectations and instead going into the experience with an open mind and an open heart, hoping to learn as much as possible from yourself in a different state of being. Somewhat similar to the way we go into meditation. I learn SO much about myself when I make the decision to use one of the above listed hallucinogens. I do not do it for the experience, nor to recreate a previous experience. I do this as a way of learning about myself and about God. And I find it very effective. (personally)
Just thought I'd share my experience.
Last summer I had my wisdom teeth taken out (yep, I have no wisdom any more!!) and the doctor gave me Oxycodone. This was my first experience with an opiate. It is such an awesome drug.. and I can see why people can get addicted to it so easily. It works great on pain, but with that gives a feeling of well being... Happy... like it's ALL OK!!.. (till the medication wears out ). Also, while on it I would feel slightly loopy and fuzzy headed. But the feeling of well being was so wonderful and there is a cut back in thoughts (maybe due to being fuzzy headed).. so I felt more present while I was medicated.
A few months back I went through a phase of increased soma production (after every meal and meditation had a feeling of being gassy, bloated), and this would be accompanied by the production of large amounts of amrita. This lasted for about two or three weeks after which I have been experiencing a constant flow of amrita. There is a sweet very slightly minty taste in my mouth all the time.. which increases with meditation, energy practices and kechari.
At first when the constant amrita experience started, it felt like being on Oxycodone. It was a feeling of being high (intoxicated), a feeling of well-being, a cut back in thoughts making me feel completely present. I felt very clear headed and completely grounded when I was engaged in activity, however when I sat down to watch TV or meditate.. I felt really high (floating) and fuzzy headed for a few mins followed by the fuzzy headedness being replaced by a very focused/meditative state, a state of being very present.
I talked to Yogani about the intoxicating effects of amrita and he said, amrita can be very intoxicating, however since it is produced by the body in a few days the body gets used to the high. And sure enough, after 2 or 3 weeks of feeling intoxicated, the "high" feeling was gone, however, the feeling of presence and amazing clarity is still very much here.
I was pleasantly surprised to read about amrita (the Biology of Kundalini) after experiencing it (I am quoting a small part, read the rest of the article.. it's very interesting).
http://biologyofkundalini.com/artic...rystalPalace
The Crystal Palace
The opiate substance secreted from the pineal gland during Samadhi has been variously called Nectar of the Gods, ambrosia, amrita, and the Living Water. Gurus like Sai Baba claim to materialize amrita and can shaktipat others into generating their own nectar. It is said that to experience amrita is to be bestowed with immortality, that is to be freed from the cycle of birth and death...hence liberated. The term Amrita is Sanskrit for "elixir of immortality," it literally means "deathlessness". This has obvious parallels to "ambrosia" the name of the classical Greek "food of the gods" which means "no death."
During shaktipat, inner-conjunction or through initiation in meditation this nectar is produced and drips down the back of the throat. Perhaps an associated phenomena to the generation of the nectar, is the intense light of a Thousand Suns that occurs sometimes during its "manufacture." This secretion gives one the experience of Timelessness, and being a divine God or Goddess. It is "sweet" in taste and in sensation--it is described as nectar, honey, gold dust, euphoric, ecstatic, intoxicating and gives the feeling of being imbued with holiness.
"My own experience of amrit is that it started to occur to me during times of very concentrated, long periods of sitting meditation, and usually happened while practicing the Khedari Mudra (tongue upward on palate). It would then occur spontaneously without the mudra and at times during the day for no apparent good reason. There is a definite sweet taste involved with a sort of swell of ecstasy experienced as well that can last for hours, perhaps days. It is always extremely pleasant and 'heightening'. The subject/object perspective can stay largely intact while experiencing 'Amrit' and one can remain highly functional (as opposed to a samadhi that transcends all body awareness). I do not recall ever being aware of amrit during a heightened experience of inner light (which tends to drown out and overwhelm any other perception)." ~ Michael Roark
Another article from the same site:
http://biologyofkundalini.com/artic...rtConnection
So maybe, if you continue using external sources of the drugs, you are just delaying or missing out on the experience of the natural highs on the yogic path? |
Edited by - Shanti on Mar 31 2009 2:35:29 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2009 : 3:28:30 PM
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Hi Shanti and thank you for taking the time to talk on this topic. A little pleasantly surprised actually. (shame on me for expecting things )
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
Just thought I'd share my experience.
Last summer I had my wisdom teeth taken out (yep, I have no wisdom any more!!)
Haha I have been living with my three wisdom teeth in my mouth for almost 3 years now. No wonder I'm so wise! Never even thought to relate these! Haha.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
and the doctor gave me Oxycodone. This was my first experience with an opiate. It is such an awesome drug.. and I can see why people can get addicted to it so easily. It works great on pain, but with that gives a feeling of well being... Happy... like it's ALL OK!!.. (till the medication wears out). Also, while on it I would feel slightly loopy and fuzzy headed. But the feeling of well being was so wonderful and there is a cut back in thoughts (maybe due to being fuzzy headed).. so I felt more present while I was medicated.
Gotcha. Preaching to the choir here. I know ALL about both the Pro's and Con's of opiates. There's nothing quite like the paradox of puking your guts out 'cause you are blasted on heroin. Laughing and puking...being blissed out and nauseated at the same time. How odd. Haha. And I totally recognize the similarities between being high on opiates and being absorbed by meditative bliss. The decrease in thoughts, the feelings of loving what Is. Overflowing love for everything. Pure bliss. Yeah, been there.....both on opiates and in meditation.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
A few months back I went through a phase of increased soma production (after every meal and meditation had a feeling of being gassy, bloated), and this would be accompanied by the production of large amounts of amrita. This lasted for about two or three weeks after which I have been experiencing a constant flow of amrita. There is a sweet very slightly minty taste in my mouth all the time.. which increases with meditation, energy practices and kechari.
At first when the constant amrita experience started, it felt like being on Oxycodone. It was a feeling of being high (intoxicated), a feeling of well-being, a cut back in thoughts making me feel completely present. I felt very clear headed and completely grounded when I was engaged in activity, however when I sat down to watch TV or meditate.. I felt really high (floating) and fuzzy headed for a few mins followed by the fuzzy headedness being replaced by a very focused/meditative state, a state of being very present.
I talked to Yogani about the intoxicating effects of amrita and he said, amrita can be very intoxicating, however since it is produced by the body in a few days the body gets used to the high. And sure enough, after 2 or 3 weeks of feeling intoxicated, the "high" feeling was gone, however, the feeling of presence and amazing clarity is still very much here.
That's where amrita beats opiates. You develop a tolerance with opiates as well, but with that increase in tolerance comes a decrease in the clarity that there was before. And you have to keep upping your dosage to get that clarity. And then your body becomes physically dependant on it, and you are doing it just to feel like a normal human being. Or at least somewhat normal. And it usually then becomes too expensive to even try and chase that "clarity" anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
I was pleasantly surprised to read about amrita (the Biology of Kundalini) after experiencing it (I am quoting a small part, read the rest of the article.. it's very interesting).
http://biologyofkundalini.com/artic...rystalPalace
The Crystal Palace
The opiate substance secreted from the pineal gland during Samadhi has been variously called Nectar of the Gods, ambrosia, amrita, and the Living Water. Gurus like Sai Baba claim to materialize amrita and can shaktipat others into generating their own nectar. It is said that to experience amrita is to be bestowed with immortality, that is to be freed from the cycle of birth and death...hence liberated. The term Amrita is Sanskrit for "elixir of immortality," it literally means "deathlessness". This has obvious parallels to "ambrosia" the name of the classical Greek "food of the gods" which means "no death."
During shaktipat, inner-conjunction or through initiation in meditation this nectar is produced and drips down the back of the throat. Perhaps an associated phenomena to the generation of the nectar, is the intense light of a Thousand Suns that occurs sometimes during its "manufacture." This secretion gives one the experience of Timelessness, and being a divine God or Goddess. It is "sweet" in taste and in sensation--it is described as nectar, honey, gold dust, euphoric, ecstatic, intoxicating and gives the feeling of being imbued with holiness.
"My own experience of amrit is that it started to occur to me during times of very concentrated, long periods of sitting meditation, and usually happened while practicing the Khedari Mudra (tongue upward on palate). It would then occur spontaneously without the mudra and at times during the day for no apparent good reason. There is a definite sweet taste involved with a sort of swell of ecstasy experienced as well that can last for hours, perhaps days. It is always extremely pleasant and 'heightening'. The subject/object perspective can stay largely intact while experiencing 'Amrit' and one can remain highly functional (as opposed to a samadhi that transcends all body awareness). I do not recall ever being aware of amrit during a heightened experience of inner light (which tends to drown out and overwhelm any other perception)." ~ Michael Roark
Another article from the same site:
http://biologyofkundalini.com/artic...rtConnection
Well lucky you, you immortal Goddess!....wink wink.....
Thank you for sharing this. I have visited this website several times, but there is so much info there it is hard to absorb it all. I spend too much time here, haha.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
So maybe, if you continue using external sources of the drugs, you are just delaying or missing out on the experience of the natural highs on the yogic path?
I agree with that statement in the case of opiates.... At least using opiates regularly. But don't you find that you are a little glad that you had that experience with Oxy so that you could compare that experience to the experience of amrita? It's all a learning process right? And I bet if you did it again, you would probably learn something more about yourself....even if it was just that you don't need Oxycodone anymore or that it holds no benefit for you. But you can't lump all drugs into the same catagory. And I think there is likely benefit to using certain hallucinogens with the right intent of self discovery. And I don't necessarily agree that "right usage" is definitely pushing back the ability to get to the point of a "natural high" through the Nectar cycle. Just my limited opinion though. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience. I appreciate it a lot.
Love,
Carson |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2009 : 09:11:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi A little pleasantly surprised actually. (shame on me for expecting things)
Ha ha.. yes when I was posting I was telling myself.. the last place I would ever dream of posting would be here. Me.. who thought your ketamine trip with your wife was a vacation to some exotic place. So I know I am out of my league talking here, but I just wanted to share my experience.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I agree with that statement in the case of opiates.... At least using opiates regularly. But don't you find that you are a little glad that you had that experience with Oxy so that you could compare that experience to the experience of amrita? It's all a learning process right? And I bet if you did it again, you would probably learn something more about yourself....even if it was just that you don't need Oxycodone anymore or that it holds no benefit for you. But you can't lump all drugs into the same catagory. And I think there is likely benefit to using certain hallucinogens with the right intent of self discovery. And I don't necessarily agree that "right usage" is definitely pushing back the ability to get to the point of a "natural high" through the Nectar cycle. Just my limited opinion though. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience. I appreciate it a lot.
Well not really, if I had not had an experience with oxycodone I guess I would have enjoyed the amrita high anyway. I may not have had anything to compare it to, but that would not have diminished it in any way would it?
Also, if I did know that yoga could re-create the experience oxycodone did, I would actually be looking for that experience to happen.. more expectations... have enuf of that (expectations) already don't ya think??? And, there was always that chance of me getting hooked to the externally created high (esp. in the past) and it is certainly not worth that. Your body can make you high naturally, so why would you want to add stuff externally to get that high.. for one there is all the headache/heartache/discomfort of letting go that emotional/physical/mental attachment to the drug and two when your body is getting supplemented with the drugs why would it make them on it's own?
Don't get me wrong, when I started off on this path, I would read about all the wonderful experiences people had when on drugs and I really thought I was missing on something huge. But off the top of my head I remember corresponding with at least four people, and everyone always told me.. we have experienced the highs on drugs and we have experienced highs on Yoga, the high on Yoga beats the drug high hands down. And my experience with oxycodone actually helps me see this in a way.. first I would not want to get addicted to any drug or experience produced by the drug and second, that high stayed while the medication stayed, but the min the medication effects were diminishing, it made me feel sad and anxious and wanting more. None of those happened with amrita since the body was producing it and maintained the right level for the openings to happen and then the body got used to it without any of the side effects of quitting.
All those things you experienced on the LSD trip, do you look forward to experiencing something similar again? And if yoga does not give it to you fast enuf, you will take some more drugs to experience it right? Do you see yourself getting hooked to an external crutch? That is what Yogani means by "In the case of continuing with hallucinogenic drugs to recreate a particular kind of experience, we will be producing the opposite effect underneath – adding to the obstructions lodged deep within our nervous system." Obstructions are ideas we hold onto dearly, the ego loves instant gratification.. that is the obstruction you are adding to yourself, you are getting caught up further in "maya", attachment to an illusion of me and mine. Finally yoga is about subtracting.. dropping all external crutches. Like Yogani says in the lesson 307,
quote:
It is important to recognize that any particular spiritual experience does not constitute a final outcome. For moving toward a final outcome in terms of spiritual progress, a different strategy is necessary, one which will systematically and gradually promote the purification and opening of the nervous system to its full capabilities.
..enlightenment is beyond any experience. The more external crutches you get hooked on to.. the more you will have to drop. Carson, sooner or later you will have to drop it all.. all your ideas.. about who you are and what you need, about justice, about drugs, about everything. The more you drop, the more you will "see". Every "idea" binds you to the external world. Knowledge is bondage, knowing is liberation. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2009 : 12:25:23 PM
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In my personal experience, yoga compared to drugs is like coffee compared to heroin: drugs are much better. But it all depends upon the person's brain i guess.
Although i did experience a thought free state today for the first time ever while meditating. I was using an alpha session with brainwave entrainment software and i noticed i had no thoughts (which doesn't seem to really make sense, i know) and afterwards i felt pretty good and it has lasted all day.
The question i have, which i have bandied about on this forum before but got no reply, was about a sinking, diving inside kind of sensation that happens to me during some meditations. Does anyone know what i mean by this?
There are drawbacks to using drugs of course. In my experience, cannabis and weed can suppress emotions and keep them locked up inside without dealing with them. You need to kind of have a knack for knowing your own mind to be able to deal with them while continuing to use the drug so that they are not supressed. Mind you, i did a lot of therapy and self study in the past. And cannabis can cause high blood pressure, not to mention paranoia. But i feel it also opens your mind up in ways that i would never have gotten ordinarily, and it might also produce siddhis (though as a diagnosed schizophrenic, those kinds of things are dubious).
Fear of death is instinctual. That is why i don't believe you can get rid of it, whether you do drugs, therapy, or yoga. The only way to deal with it, in my opinion, is to ignore thinking about it. That is not a fear you can face really. You can look at it, flirt with it etc but get over it? - i don't believe so. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2009 : 1:53:15 PM
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Hi Shanti...
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
Ha ha.. yes when I was posting I was telling myself.. the last place I would ever dream of posting would be here. Me.. who thought your ketamine trip with your wife was a vacation to some exotic place. So I know I am out of my league talking here, but I just wanted to share my experience.
And I really appreciate you sharing. I wasn't meaning to say that you would not have anything to offer, but that I was surprised you decided to post in this thread. I know that topics on drugs are not the most popular with most of the pracitioners here. I am probably the exception to the rule in most cases.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
if I had not had an experience with oxycodone I guess I would have enjoyed the amrita high anyway. I may not have had anything to compare it to, but that would not have diminished it in any way would it?
No it wouldn't have diminshed it I'm sure. But personally, having something to compare an unknown experience to always helps me stay centred and is an aid in the documentation and experimentation process. I guess I am different from many here in that I actively engaged in drug experimentation for the purposes of consciousness research. I used to take little known drugs and write trip reports that included exact dosages, time references, physical responses like blood pressure, pulse etc, contraindications or enhancments with other drugs, and much more, all in the name of "consciouness research". At that point I had always poo-pooed those that said these types of experiences were possible without injesting something external. I always thought that these people had no idea what it was actually like to do many of these drugs. Now I know different. But I am very thankful for the availability of a reference point. It also serves to create a wealth of knowledge on the physiological effects of spiritual practices. For example, having experience in the DMT state, one can undertand better what is happening in the body when you hit this state naturally.(the pineal gland is releasing DMT) And that can give comfort. Many people talk of the fear that comes when hitting the "white light" point in meditation. Whatever you want to call that. This is also a point hit in a DMT trip. Having experience with DMT before hitting this point naturally, made it much less fearful for me then it probably is for many others. I knew exactly what was happening at the time. Someone with no experience with the state will likely experience extreme fear. This is one benefits with having some experience with altered states like these.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
Also, if I did know that yoga could re-create the experience oxycodone did, I would actually be looking for that experience to happen.. more expectations... have enuf of that (expectations) already don't ya think???
That seems backwards to me. You did the Oxy first, and THEN had the Amrita flow start right? If you had got the Amrita flow first, and then it somehow stopped, and THEN you did Oxy and found that it could recreate that experience, perhaps THEN it might be an issue. But knowing that Yoga can recreate an Oxy experience should increase bhakti I would think. Perhaps if you are really attached to that state it could become an attachment, but that could happen regardless of whether or not you did Oxy before hand or not. See what I am saying? Not trying to be arguementative, hope you can "feel" that.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
And, there was always that chance of me getting hooked to the externally created high (esp. in the past) and it is certainly not worth that. Your body can make you high naturally, so why would you want to add stuff externally to get that high..
There is the chance of you getting hooked on the Amrita experience as much as on the Oxy experience. And I don't agree with "adding stuff" to "get that high", that's kinda the whole point of this thread. That taking hallucinogens with the right intention has nothing to do with trying to "get that high". It is about deep self inquiry, and spiritual growth. Not to "get high". I think that is where the big misconception is.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
for one there is all the headache/heartache/discomfort of letting go that emotional/physical/mental attachment to the drug and two when your body is getting supplemented with the drugs why would it make them on it's own?
With Oxy and cannibas there may be some attachment to the feelings, but with the rest of the drugs on my list this is totally not an issue. You don't get attached to doing Ibogaine for example. It's just plain too traumatic and life changing to take lightly. Same with DMT, Ayahausca, high dose mushrooms and LSD etc etc. These aren't fun. They may sound fun to someone who has never tried them, but let me assure you, this isn't done recreationally in anyway. Not when done with proper intent. And that is what I am trying to discuss in this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
Don't get me wrong, when I started off on this path, I would read about all the wonderful experiences people had when on drugs and I really thought I was missing on something huge.
Please don't think that I am suggesting that people without the inclination already should start looking for hallucinogens because this is going to enhance your spiritual progress....this is SOOOOO not what I am trying to say. ALL I am trying to say, is that you can not lump all drugs, hallucinogens or otherwise, into the same catagory. How big of an obstacle to enlightenment is refined sugar? Minimal probably. Same with DMT for example IMO. They are both drugs by definition. Both with VERY different mechanisms of action, and very different phsyiological responses from the human organism. That does not mean that there is no proper use for refined sugar. Same with DMT. Both of them alter your state of mind. Both could add obstructions if the intention behind the usage is wrong. Heck, the same goes for money! And it is not by definition a drug. The wrong use of money can lead to spiritual obstructions. The right use of money does not. The wrong use of drugs will lead to spiritual obstructions. The right use of drugs will not. (IMO). I think intention is everything.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
But off the top of my head I remember corresponding with at least four people, and everyone always told me.. we have experienced the highs on drugs and we have experienced highs on Yoga, the high on Yoga beats the drug high hands down.
Of course. Something internally created will always beat something externally created. But the power of attachment looms in both situations just as strongly.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
And my experience with oxycodone actually helps me see this in a way.. first I would not want to get addicted to any drug or experience produced by the drug and second, that high stayed while the medication stayed, but the min the medication effects were diminishing, it made me feel sad and anxious and wanting more. None of those happened with amrita since the body was producing it and maintained the right level for the openings to happen and then the body got used to it without any of the side effects of quitting.
This is how it is with opiates and cannibas, but this is not how it is with the other drugs on my list. With the other drugs on my list you are very glad when it is over and it takes many many months or longer to work oneself up to wanting to do it again. Sometimes the urge to imbibe never returns after particularly useful trips. I have seen this happen to many. Just like Scott said above in regards to Salvia... "I often joke that it was the drug which caused me to stop doing drugs."
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
All those things you experienced on the LSD trip, do you look forward to experiencing something similar again?
No. Usually these types of experiences CAN'T be replicated. I have done enough drugs to know this. Each time is unique. "Chasing a high" is silly and I know this. I don't do it anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
And if yoga does not give it to you fast enuf, you will take some more drugs to experience it right?
No. I am not doing Yoga in search of these types of experiences. I know it is capable of producing them, but I am not looking for them at all. I will likely take more drugs in the future though....Actually I am going to visit my good friend, his wife and their newborn baby girl next week for the Easter weekend. This weekend is also both of our birthdays. It is also a full moon weekend. We have planned to take a hike on the 10th and to eat mushrooms during the hike. I am not looking to recreate any experience. I am not looking for anything but to learn more about myself.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
Do you see yourself getting hooked to an external crutch?
No, I really don't. I have loosened the grip of every susbtance addiction I have ever had. I am no longer bound by my substance addictions and I am not looking to go back to the way I was. But this does not mean to me that drugs hold no usefullness to me anymore either.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
That is what Yogani means by "In the case of continuing with hallucinogenic drugs to recreate a particular kind of experience, we will be producing the opposite effect underneath – adding to the obstructions lodged deep within our nervous system." Obstructions are ideas we hold onto dearly, the ego loves instant gratification.. that is the obstruction you are adding to yourself, you are getting caught up further in "maya", attachment to an illusion of me and mine. Finally yoga is about subtracting.. dropping all external crutches. Like Yogani says in the lesson 307,
Of course. I understand this very well I think. I am not looking to add another crutch. My biggest crutch right now is AYP though. Not drugs. And I don't necessarily buy into the whole "crutch" idea at this stage of my journey either. What is IS right? If I feel that some hallucinogens hold use still for me, then that is the way it is. Until it isn't. Same with AYP. It holds great value to me right now. Will it always? Who knows? Will I always need it? Who knows? Will I always need drugs? No. I don't need them now. But just because I don't "need" them doesn't mean they aren't useful in some ways.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
It is important to recognize that any particular spiritual experience does not constitute a final outcome. For moving toward a final outcome in terms of spiritual progress, a different strategy is necessary, one which will systematically and gradually promote the purification and opening of the nervous system to its full capabilities.
The journey never ends.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
..enlightenment is beyond any experience. The more external crutches you get hooked on to.. the more you will have to drop. Carson, sooner or later you will have to drop it all.. all your ideas.. about who you are and what you need, about justice, about drugs, about everything. The more you drop, the more you will "see". Every "idea" binds you to the external world. Knowledge is bondage, knowing is liberation.
Of course. Even the idea that I am not enlightened.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Apr 01 2009 2:29:23 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2009 : 3:25:27 PM
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Shoot......
I can't believe I forgot to add this one to my list, but peyote/mescaline should definitely be on the list of hallucinogens that can be spiritually useful IMO. Absolutely baffled that I forgot that one. I guess this goes to show that I really am not into drugs like I used to be. I NEVER would have forgot to include that one from my list in the past. The use of peyote has caused some major openings for me in the past.
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2009 : 5:36:59 PM
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i am sorry Carson cz i might be intruding here and i know that it's not my business to each his own choice of living no matter what; speaking for myself i am ready to become an aghori and eat you know what if it's really the fastest way to god realization but consider me a bit doubtful i don't think it really is the same way i think about drugs in general i simply think that they mess up things create more attachment; ruin health and the intellect and create more castles in the air...
now during your period of practicing yoga without using any drugs didn't you experience a better high on any given time bcz i know i did and it's worth the time waiting for it to become a 24\7 experience and i can judge on the subject bcz i experimented with cannabis and once with special k a few years back.
and concerning that group of addicts you were teaching yoga to, do you think that doing these kind of drugs sets a good example for them or for anyone to that matter.
consider a 14 year old teenager coming and reading these post of yours; what would the end result be?
i am sorry if i sounded a bit harsh, but i got sad when i read that you are back into doing drugs again.
kindest regards,
Ananda
p.s: to the moderators: if my post is out of line, plz delete it. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2009 : 6:38:16 PM
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Brother Ananda....no offence taken, and I thank you for conversing on this....
quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
i am sorry Carson cz i might be intruding here and i know that it's not my business to each his own choice of living no matter what; speaking for myself i am ready to become an aghori and eat you know what if it's really the fastest way to god realization but consider me a bit doubtful i don't think it really is the same way i think about drugs in general i simply think that they mess up things create more attachment; ruin health and the intellect and create more castles in the air...
It all depends on the intent of use. Drugs aren't the problem (IMO) it's the attachment to drugs (or the experiences they provide) that is the problem. They don't all ruin health, (take Ibogaine for example) and they don't all ruin the intellect....don't paint with too wide a brush stroke....expecially without direct personal experience. P.S. Don't be sorry
quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
now during your period of practicing yoga without using any drugs didn't you experience a better high on any given time bcz i know i did and it's worth the time waiting for it to become a 24\7 experience and i can judge on the subject bcz i experimented with cannabis and once with special k a few years back.
No, not necessarily. I have experienced great things both on drugs and in meditation. I have learned important things in both situations as well. I try to learn from every situation the same.
quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
and concerning that group of addicts you were teaching yoga to, do you think that doing these kind of drugs sets a good example for them or for anyone to that matter.
Which kinds of drugs? Hallucinogens? Scratching weed and opiates off my list in the original post, and adding mescaline, I wouldn't discourage the use if any individual was so inclined. I wouldn't encourage it either. To each their own. I DO believe in a proper "entheogenic education" before partaking, but again to each their own.
quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
consider a 14 year old teenager coming and reading these post of yours; what would the end result be?
An educated decision?
quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
i am sorry if i sounded a bit harsh, but i got sad when i read that you are back into doing drugs again.
I'm sorry my posts invoked that response from you, but I am not "back into doing drugs again" Ananda. I do not have any attachment to any drug. Nor do I have any specific aversion to any drug. I think they all hold their own usefullness if approached in an egoless, educated, well prepared way. I am not back smoking pot regularly in any way...I am not doing opiates at all.....I have taken LSD once in the last year or so.....I plan to take mushrooms in a week or so the same way I would plan to go to a meditation retreat for a day. I have no doubt that this day will be anything but beneficial for me. If it turns out otherwise, I will likely rethink this thread. Until personal experience proves to me otherwise, all I have to go on is my current personal experience. Hope this isn't to abrupt. Please forgive me if it is. This is all said with Love in my heart.
Love,
Carson |
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Lacinato
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2009 : 5:36:00 PM
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| I think that as long as there is not attachment to any sort of outcome, a tool is... exactly that, a tool. The trips I have taken that taught me the most were not so fun, and I didn't expect them to be. But they really helped loosen blockages my ego had been resisting prior. Meditating after such an event (the next few days after) has given me really key, permanent releases and lessons. So it is not to dismiss meditation--indeed, for me, meditation makes them *more* valuable. And meditation is the constant. But that doesn't dismiss the careful, informed effects of other tools. |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2009 : 12:17:10 AM
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_/\_
Hi Carson, I've been trippin on ecstasy tonight, and I'd say: good stuff, good experience.
_/\_ |
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Hallucinogens and Yoga
