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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 09 2009 : 1:05:53 PM
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Hello again!
Thank you Gumpi: you are our mirror!
We may argue for this or that.. this is all meaningless and waste of time and energy..
The only valuable thing is the silence that makes us one with everybody and everything around..
I was reading the recent posts and something came to my mind:
maybe many of you already experienced that..
I was thinking of the moment between the sleeping state and the awakening.. it happens to me sometimes to be "aware" of this transition, as if I was detached from the person who is awakening..
In that moment, there is silence, and the mind just starts slowly to wake up along with the body.. I start to hear echoes of thoughts that become more and more clear and loud..
In those few minutes of inner peace and silence, when I'm aware, I just realize that what bugs me usually - about many things, or problems I'm facing - simply seems to be nonsense and absurd..and THEN, as I realize the nonsense of all those mind movies and lies, I wake up, keeping this realization vivid in my consciousness.
So those glimpses of awareness are happening more and more often and it's a valuable opportunity to get in touch with the true inner self, beyond the mind.. it helps also see the gap that is between "Me" and "the mind"..
I guess this is a major thing that we work on during meditation..
Just sharing..
Love. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2009 : 1:49:30 PM
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I don't doubt, as i said before, that there might be periods of awareness without thoughts in meditation. In hypnagogic states we hear auditory things that seem different and can even have visions.
But anthony, you just said that when silence arises in the mind then is the time to ask questions. But i would question even that - how can you ask questions if you have silent awareness?
as i also said, the mind is full of thoughts, music etc when you watch it. Transcending all that junk may be possible, and whether it is possible to entirely get rid of that junk is another question, which some call samadhi. Someone said that the silence does come but in degrees. I have no reason to disbelieve that, yet it is not my experience so far.
And i will continue to question all the other claims that arise about spiritual experiences. I am fairly certain they are self hypnosis whether self induced through reading about others or given by other people.
And again, i have already answered the question about why i am here. Whoever it was that quoted someone asking me why i am here needs to actually read what i write first.
In terms of knowledge, i don't believe anybody knows God. Sometimes people have mystical or peak experiences and then colour them with God talk. But God has nothing to do with it, and all the philosophy and theories and "proofs" of God can be refuted easily. Whether you call it "truth" or "God" doesn't matter, it cannot be proven and is easily refuted. If, instead, you said that you have one of those mystical experiences without God, that is perfectly valid to me since it makes no outlandish claims of knowledge of something that nobody else knows anything about. So call it truth if you want, but get rid of the mysticism. That helps nobody. |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2009 : 2:47:37 PM
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Every thought is preceded by a thought. Where does it go?
quote:
From The Precious Treasury of the Basic Space of Phenomena: "Space is a metaphor for awakened mind. Since that mind has no cause and is not an object that comes into being, it does not abide in any finite way, is inexpressible, and transcends the realm of the imagination. The phrase "the realm of space" is simply a way of illustrating it metaphorically. If even the metaphor itself cannot be described as some "thing," how could the underlying meaning that it illustrates be imagined or described? It should be understood as a metaphor for what is naturally clear.
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Edited by - themysticseeker on Mar 09 2009 3:09:14 PM |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2009 : 2:55:01 PM
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My point was the say that in stillness of the mind all the questions you are raising fall away. It becomes very apparent that by trying to answer the mind's questions of whether there is something beyond the mind with the mind is impossible and exhausting. But when not in stillness it seems like a very rational and practical approach.
So, if you can have a "mystical" (what exactly does that mean?) experience "without God" (I thought God was hypnosis) then you'll believe in...what exactly?
Gumpi, it is SO tempting to keep returning to this thread for me...but it is actually only feeding the cycle of the mind trying to figure itself out. Maybe you should be a Philosopher and sit in the arm-chair and try to think life to death thinking that you'll be the only ego ever to see past its own opaque reflection.
I for one am done with this conversation.
Blessings to you, Gumpi. Just keep meditating, man. Read Tolle. |
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wigswest
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2009 : 10:11:04 PM
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All I know is that I haven't meditated today and feel like I'm wearing a mohair shirt that's two sizes too small  :) |
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JDas
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2009 : 04:06:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by natalie
wow, i see by my comments on meditation , and my experience i have upset a number of people.........that was not intended.
No! This is very valuable, as a lot of people share your sentiments. You've give us the opportunity to explore our own reasons for meditation. Meditation is not for everybody. We are all different. Plus, it just might be the right time. Perhaps at some future time, meditation might prove valuable to you. Now at least you've had some exposure to it. Clearly you were expecting a particular result, and this did not occur. I hope you get what you were seeking.
Jon |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2009 : 10:03:07 AM
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I agree. The meditation of non-distraction and non-meditation is true meditation.
Sarva Mangalam
Ösel |
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spinal_tap
Indonesia
40 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2009 : 1:55:23 PM
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I think what Gumpi is trying to do is to get rid of the air of mysticism (spiritual experiences) from the subject of meditation(or perhaps 'self-hypnosis'. after all, we are the ones that name these methods and we are free to call them whichever we like). There is a lot of scientific researches that support the benefits of meditation, but not for the spiritual experiences. Maybe our scientists just isn't advanced enough to research on these spiritual experiences yet. In my opinion, spiritual experiences sometimes could be exaggerated by words of mouth and eventually mislead people. Which is why I always avoid reading about spiritual experiences.
If Gumpi truly succeed in her quest of liberating the subject of meditation from the questionable mysticism, maybe one day the governments will even make meditation a subject to be taught in schools.
After all, if meditation is illegal and recreational drugs are legal, a lot of people would probably be addicted to meditation. Just kidding =)
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2009 : 2:02:41 PM
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Meditation works. It doesn't matter if you call it a connection with God or not. There is no reason to discount someone else's experience just because they use words you don't like.
Instead, write about your experiences that use different words. There are many paths.
Concepts like God cannot be described in words. So when people try, mistakes are made. Those who love God understand, and those who don't manifest those feelings which caused the alienation to begin with. Alienation from what? It can't be put in words. . . |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2009 : 07:14:11 AM
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quote:
But there is an informal practice, in fact a lifestyle, that never becomes obsolete, and that is service to others. It's really the secret to happiness.
Beautiful advice and reminder Neptune. Thank you. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2009 : 08:14:02 AM
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I am probably wrong about self hypnosis. I seem to have bipolar tendencies without being bipolar! Ah well.
After reading a book called "psychology, religion and spirituality" by David Fontana (who also wrote "Is there an afterlife?", very good books), i have learned that spiritual experiences can happen in all kinds of spontaneous circumstances, lots of them aren't even related to meditation. Nobody really knows what causes these experiences but it seems that they do indeed occur. (I would say that they come from "God"). People can get them while exercising or playing sports, fasting, at seances, while falling asleep etc. They tend to come unbidden or unsought for people who lead ordinary lives and don't even have beliefs or prior information about them.
It would seem, however, that meditation acts as a sort of radio receiver that gets switched on to open up the possibility for these experiences to come through - but not always.
The question about karma in this connection is interesting. Karma doesn't necessarily explain why these experiences occur and there are problems with the concept of karma. The most obvious problem with the idea of karma is why all this stuff exists in the first place. But the idea of cause and effect seems pretty much common sense as far as it goes. In any case, the idea that people merit spiritual experiences based on past good actions doesn't seem to have much legitimacy. Nor is there any real explanation yet as to why bad things happen to good people who don't deserve it, like spiritual experiences happening for bad people also.
Only a close minded materialist who refuses to look at the evidence for all kinds of anomalous experiences is effectively out of the debate. Science doesn't even support such persons' viewpoints anyway. The debate about consciousness coming from the brain only is interesting but not without erroneous assumptions and doesn't answer many questions.
The best thing at this point is to avoid dogmatism, both from scientific, materialism and from religious or spiritual interpretations.
I have personally had experiences that i cannot explain, like most other people on this planet, the major ones being synchronicity and the prophetic nature of dreams. That is why i am open minded to the possibility that meditation can reveal spiritual realities, even though i have yet to experience anything from meditation (to be fair and honest, i haven't adequately given meditation a proper "shot" due to personal problems and situations. So my previous comments about meditation shouldn't be taken too seriously). I still do think, though, that people can take their beliefs too far and indulge in unrealistic interpretations of things related to yoga and meditation and the corresponding philosophies and these interpretations can cause delusions or misaprehensions of the real state of things. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2009 : 08:18:17 AM
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Yes, unselfishness and serving others is undoubtedly one of the biggest causes of receiving personal happiness. But the way you put it makes it sound as if the person being unselfish should have no expectation of reward, which i don't agree with. Paramahansa Yogananda said that it is practically obsolete to continually give without getting anything in return by way of an analogy of a person who, at the dinner table serves everyone but themselves and consequently starves to death.
Back to that old chestnut again - expectations. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2009 : 09:45:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Yes, unselfishness and serving others is undoubtedly one of the biggest causes of receiving personal happiness. But the way you put it makes it sound as if the person being unselfish should have no expectation of reward, which i don't agree with. Paramahansa Yogananda said that it is practically obsolete to continually give without getting anything in return by way of an analogy of a person who, at the dinner table serves everyone but themselves and consequently starves to death.
Back to that old chestnut again - expectations.
Yes Gumpi, you are right. If you keep on giving without ever regenerating you can become depleted and that is worse. You an dthe other are the same and even in the bible says to love the other as your own self (not more, not less).
If service to others is put as the main and primary motivation, one would do all one can to become healthy and strong enough to be able to give more and more. That is where yoga comes in for a lot of people - to better themselves so they can give more and more. I'd even say that, regardless of your motivation, it is a natural outcome of yoga and good health and happiness in general - once you have it, all you care about is the happiness of others.
So search for happiness wherever you think you'll find it. If it's real, you will give happiness to others, whilst doing anything, just being happy! I believe this is the fruit of effective yoga (union). I also believe that true happiness is found inside us, not outside.
As the Buda said - be kind and compassionate. You are doing yourself a favour  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2009 : 2:42:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
I am probably wrong about self hypnosis. I seem to have bipolar tendencies without being bipolar! Ah well.
After reading a book called "psychology, religion and spirituality" by David Fontana (who also wrote "Is there an afterlife?", very good books), i have learned that spiritual experiences can happen in all kinds of spontaneous circumstances, lots of them aren't even related to meditation. Nobody really knows what causes these experiences but it seems that they do indeed occur. (I would say that they come from "God"). People can get them while exercising or playing sports, fasting, at seances, while falling asleep etc. They tend to come unbidden or unsought for people who lead ordinary lives and don't even have beliefs or prior information about them.
It would seem, however, that meditation acts as a sort of radio receiver that gets switched on to open up the possibility for these experiences to come through - but not always.
The question about karma in this connection is interesting. Karma doesn't necessarily explain why these experiences occur and there are problems with the concept of karma. The most obvious problem with the idea of karma is why all this stuff exists in the first place. But the idea of cause and effect seems pretty much common sense as far as it goes. In any case, the idea that people merit spiritual experiences based on past good actions doesn't seem to have much legitimacy. Nor is there any real explanation yet as to why bad things happen to good people who don't deserve it, like spiritual experiences happening for bad people also.
Only a close minded materialist who refuses to look at the evidence for all kinds of anomalous experiences is effectively out of the debate. Science doesn't even support such persons' viewpoints anyway. The debate about consciousness coming from the brain only is interesting but not without erroneous assumptions and doesn't answer many questions.
The best thing at this point is to avoid dogmatism, both from scientific, materialism and from religious or spiritual interpretations.
I have personally had experiences that i cannot explain, like most other people on this planet, the major ones being synchronicity and the prophetic nature of dreams. That is why i am open minded to the possibility that meditation can reveal spiritual realities, even though i have yet to experience anything from meditation (to be fair and honest, i haven't adequately given meditation a proper "shot" due to personal problems and situations. So my previous comments about meditation shouldn't be taken too seriously). I still do think, though, that people can take their beliefs too far and indulge in unrealistic interpretations of things related to yoga and meditation and the corresponding philosophies and these interpretations can cause delusions or misaprehensions of the real state of things.
Everything is not what it seems and that is for certain. There has long since been a view in the scientific community that there is an evolving connection between Science and Spirituality. An open mind, curiosity and a healthy appetite for experimentation is a great way of living. |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2009 : 1:16:03 PM
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Dear Natalie
I meditate because I don't have a choice. The spiritual experiences that take hold of me (largely unsought but for the wish to please 'god'), and that have done so for nearly fifty years, since I was a kid, require me to practice awareness and meditation just as surely as the unsought experience of being a physical body requires the involuntary practice of breathing.
At one level, I would love not to have to meditate and practice the yoga of self-enquiry; I would love to be able to go about my business undistracted, without having to give all this time and energy and attention to understanding these experiences, so that I can somehow be true to myself (rather than try to blot them out), and at the same time somehow manage to live a 'normal' life.
When the great teachers are asked what is the purpose of all this practice, the best say 'there is no purpose', and I have come to understand why they say this.
But life goes on, and each does what s/he must. If you do not experience meditation as part of your necessity, my suggestion would be that you 'thank your lucky stars'.
Thank you for your authenticity, it is the most important teacher of all.
Chinna |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2009 : 2:09:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chinna
Thank you for your authenticity, it is the most important teacher of all.
Chinna
totally agree... thank you. |
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Jo-self
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2009 : 2:49:25 PM
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Gumpi:
I don't agree with your reasons or rational for questioning meditation and all that, but I do share your questioning of it. And, I think it is good to do so. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
For one thing, it shows that much of what people use to defend meditation is just wishful thinking and neo-religious view points. I can't stomach that. I've been doing meditation for like thirty years. I don't buy easy explanations or easy critiques. I know there is something happening and there is something beyond 'this', but that is what I 'see', doesn't make it real. The only reason I continue to do meditation is cause it has good effects (and some bad ones too) and that I have had some experiences that defy my ability to explain them away, that is, something happened externally, and not just sensory games.
One thing I would caution you is to not critique using old arguments like the use of hypnotism, suggestibility, and so forth. They don't work. There is something happening in the brain and it is real. We just don't know what it is in western physiological terms, and, really, whether in the long-term how much benefit it really adds.
Not to be gross but the closest thing I could come up with is orgasm. Imagine if someone discovers that with appropriate actions one could trigger it. You can argue all day, but the physical process does happen to people who do the nasty. What the traditions are saying is if you do certain things, your other head will explode. No arguing about it, many people do what they say and have explosions of light and sound in their heads. But, is this reality, a glimmer of the other side, or just brain masturbation?
We certainly can't answer this now. At least, I can't. The Traditions have elaborate explanations, and most people are fine with accepting them. However, perhaps it does not matter in the short term. What matters is the effect. Does it help people become "better"? In other words, in some kind of real developmental criteria, do meditators grow into a more humanness that is sorely missing on this planet? Does meditation fit into a holistic way of living that promotes peace? Who cares if you gaze upon the cosmic mandala and float on the cosmic lotus if you can't hug your spouse?
Wow, too many thoughts. Anyway, I think having a healthy critical eye is warranted; a lot of nonsense practices and beliefs are still out there and its too easy to become nuts.
AYP? Hey, nothing is sacred, I don't know Yogani, I use what makes sense for me, at least with AYP, there are no "secrets" and cult stuff. Does it matter who compiles, creates, or communicates a Teaching? I'm still contemplating that.
-- jo-self
Edit: I may be even more critical these past days cause I'm stuck at home healing. Hope I still make sense. :)
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Edited by - Jo-self on Apr 14 2009 3:01:56 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2009 : 4:17:05 PM
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| I mostly meditate because it makes life easier and more fun. I don't really consider myself a very spiritual person. I've had spiritual experiences throughout my whole life, and they're really cool, but I would rather concentrate on just everyday life in the real world. That's enough. And meditation helps it greatly. |
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omarkaya
Spain
146 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2010 : 4:51:36 PM
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| Hello Natalie,im glad that you got awakened,seriously i think you got it.thats what meditation its all about,to be conscious,about what is good for you or what is not,Meditation is not for everybody,some people cant meditate ,thats a fact.but i dont agree when you affirm that is not worth it, only because you find it hard.meditation is a very good thing,it helps you to get awereness to be conscious,to be a better person,it refreshes your mind,infuses feeling of well being ,you gain many intelectual faculties,it can be an umbrella against negativity and pain,and if you become a master of it,you get siddhis(powers) and can perform many extraordinary things and get benefit from it,but the best of all,it helps you to understand the drama of life and not to be too damaged from it,when you know your real self, you are not any more so worried. |
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snake
United Kingdom
280 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2018 : 06:42:07 AM
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Is Gumpi still around?i think I met him or maybe not at an SRF initiation in London ,maybe15 years ago.i would like to chat with him if anyone has seen him on here recently,
Thanks |
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Why I don't believe in meditation
