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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 07 2009 : 12:40:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
quote:
Originally posted by brother neil
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
chris angel was dating britney spears; gives a little insight into who he is.
what you are implying may give insight into who you are, what is wrong with dating britney spears?
just a thought,
still with love
brother neil
Or maybe this gives insight into who you are - I didn't say there was anything wrong with dating Britney! But if you examine the life of Britney, you would not think Chris Angel could be anything but tricks.
I love Britney, but she has fallen prey to fame - one of the most powerful predators there is. It can destroy almost anyone psychologically, and she was a vulnerable young girl. She was made famous not by talent primarily, but by the powerful fame machine that creates image and charisma. This new machine creates politicians, celebrities, brands; but it destroys people.
I can appreciate that, just threw it out there, what does it say about me? well I do like to stir the pot a little, I accept that.
love ya brother
Neil
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2009 : 12:49:33 PM
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Yogaislife, lol. That was funny.
Perhaps i have just learnt how to meditate in the correct way after all this time. i think i was forcing concentration before whereas i think the key is to relax the mind as much as possible. Still, my questions about expectation and spiritual experiences still stand.
What i did experience earlier today was 2 very brief split second moments of something very deep and refreshing like some kind of point or coolness somehow. Impossible to explain really. Anyway, i think it is a blessing and a curse to have a forum like this where people always talk about their experiences. |
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sushman
India
86 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2009 : 1:04:51 PM
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Karl, I liked your posts in the thread. Keep it going !!!
Particularly, i liked the one on concept of time. though i could not comprehend it fully, its something i (my mind?) wud like to chew on 
Gumpi,
Are you saying that you are not experiencing anything good in your day-day life after meditation? - such as less anger, more joy, self inquiry, etc. Atleast I am feeling all these...though i don't have any experiences during meditation (though at times I feel energy movement here and there...and lots of automatic movements which takes most of my meditation time). Also, if i overdo, there is purification symptoms (itching or rashes).
Yes, I too feel frustrated with no fireworks during meditation...but i am ok with it as of now...trying to drop expectations during the sessions....particularly, i tell myself to let go before beginning the meditation session. it helps.
I am not doing DM rather following the Shoonya meditation i had described in the forum (under other systems section). don't get attached to the music or thoughts that come up during the sessions...see them as thoughts and just let it flow and witness it.
Also, pls keep your non-meditation time busy with other things. otherwise, one can easily get frustrated by expecting too much out of meditation as nothing else is taking one's time.
ALL THE BEST !!! |
Edited by - sushman on Mar 07 2009 1:21:38 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2009 : 1:29:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by brother neil
I can appreciate that, just threw it out there, what does it say about me? well I do like to stir the pot a little, I accept that.
love ya brother
Neil
Just the tendency to assume I was judging chris by saying he was dating britney. NBD.
What I was observing is there is a highly successful deception of the general public in the form of image creation. And it is everywhere. The public will eventually see through it, and it will fall apart. A spin-off from spiritual energy increasing.
Best regards, E-fish |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2009 : 2:11:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Sounds like the approach krishnamurti would have recommended.
The trouble with all my complaining here is when it comes to God. I don't have a problem with meditation but i do have a problem with spiritual experiences because there doesn't seem to be any actual way of eliciting them. Bhakti in AYP is not the same as bhakti yoga. In AYP is is about using frustration to commit to regular practice, which you then practice like a ritual without expectations. In bhakti yoga it is all about devotion and concentration on the Divine where all expectation is on experiencing something spiritual. So i bring up the point again that expectation and non-expectation when it comes to God seems to be an oxymoron in terms of getting spiritual experiences. What is the answer to this?
How can people realistically commit to regular meditation and have no expectations of results? There is something about this very issue that unsettles me deeply.
Nevertheless, i did meditate today and this time the mantra became "fuzzy" which i haven't experienced before. But there were so many thoughts flowing into the mind constantly, relentlessly, along with music that i just can't seem to stop. All kinds of different music tunes that i have listened to for years coming up at different times not by conscious choice but by subconscious processes. If this is part of "purification" then i wonder how long it would take to get rid of all this junk. Besides, how do you prevent more junk from getting in when you go about your daily life? You are exposed to music from TV and radio, whether of volition in your own home or from other people outside.
Another query i have concerns the deepness of going inside. Since i have suffered from very large amounts of anxiety in the past, does this hinder efforts to go inside deeply? Might i have too much beta wave activity? I can enter semi-subconscious states and stay aware but they don't turn into dream like images or hypnagogic phenomena.
So if the silent pure bliss consciousness can only arise when the karma/samskaras are exhausted, and you only spend 40 minutes a day meditating, the rest of the day picking up more and more sensory impressions which leak into the brain as more samskaras, how is it even possible to check and throw out that junk to get to the silence?
Gumpi I get all that music (sometimes it stays with me the entire session) and lots of weird snippets of audio voices (I'm not even sure where they are from, a bit like listening to other peoples conversation. Usually just short passges like 'and I saw that last week', 'do you think he has.....' very clear too. It's simple to let that just happen and go back to the mantra when you can manage it comfortably.
I meditate without expectation.......I have no idea what it achieves, but I don't know of any other method that might reveal some hidden corner, nothing else I know of except the use of LSD or Mescalin (and I'm not interested in continual use of drugs to move things on) might offer a similar path.
I no longer experience any visual activity during meditation, just a void with the occassional audio distractions and everyday concerns (damn I should have got my car Tax / got up earlier / have that board meeting today).
I do think that anxiety is something that can interfere, particularly if the subconscious is unsettled then it might be that it is pushing hard to survive your attempts to silence it.....because it's scared ! essentially the subconscious has an age of around seven years old (I have no idea if that's true, but during my practitioner training thats what we were told). A scared seven year old is going to rant quite a bit when you tell him to be quiet.
A good break through session with a half decent NLP/Time Line theraoist would probably work wonders.
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2009 : 2:52:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sushman
I am not doing DM rather following the Shoonya meditation i had described in the forum (under other systems section).
This has nothing to do with this thread, but Sushman, I've just checked your post concerning Shoonya (taught at Isha)..
Sorry to say that but you know perfectly well that you shouldn't tell people how to do this particular practice taught at Isha.
It's not about picking any mantra and repeating it..
Nobody is advised to practice this technique without following the 3 days teaching at Isha.
Teaching and initiation take place in a specific atmosphere under the supervision of Saddguru.
It's not a simple technique that could be found in books and just be practiced like that..
The process takes 3 intense days to be initiated and each person is given a specific mantra that is appropriate for her.
And as you took Shoonya at Isha, you should know very well about the cautions that are to be taken into consideration.
I'm not intending to be "offensive" but I simply feel responsible for other people who may try to do Shoonya according to your instructions.
Peace and Love. |
Edited by - Goddessinside on Mar 07 2009 3:00:49 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2009 : 3:00:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sushman
Karl, I liked your posts in the thread. Keep it going !!!
Particularly, i liked the one on concept of time. though i could not comprehend it fully, its something i (my mind?) wud like to chew on
Hi Sushman,
It's funny but years ago, when as kids, we talked about an endless universe. My friends all got a bit spooked by the concept and for some reason it just excited me.
Years later sat in a Hotel talking to a Uni graduate ( I was an electrical technician then) and I suddenly came up with an a thought that 1=0.My friend the graduate, thought it was a crazy idea and just could not get what I was thinking. Out of the blue, another resident of the hotel leant over and politely asked what we were talking about. I think I replied 'oh you know just daft stuff' and he said 'oh, I thought I overheard you mentioning that 1=0?'. At which point he revealed he was some research physicist and that my crazy thought was actually well documented.
So, I'm setting the scene for understanding these concepts (which is all they are). The concept of our transition from primordial slime (and probably before that) to become the creators of our own Multiverse by becoming one single creator, is, as far as I know, my idea. It is a beautifully simple solution and elegant.
In a physical sense the idea that 1=0 is more understandable if we extract -3 and +3 from zero. We now have some quantities, and yet, when we sum them, they become zero. Thus +infinity and -infinity sum to zero. Zero contains all the numbers, yet, is of itself, no number at all.
This meets itself in the definition of time. Time would simply be an extraction of one moment. In reality it would not exist in the sense that we know it, however it would exist. So everything would exist at the same time. But as 1=0, time would both exist and not exist. Everything exists and nothing exists at the same time.
Read Brian Greene-The Fabric of the Cosmos or go look on the site http://www.everythingforever.com/ for some easy insights into all of this strangeness. Hawkins book on the brief history of time is also worthe hunting out.
What is particularly nice about Gevin Giorbans book and website is that it is filled with quotes from Physiscist such as Einstein, Eddington, Bohm and even Woody Allen......
"Eternity is a long time , especially towards the end"
All this I find as exciting as the first time someone mentioned the universe being infinite. Meditation might just be another key to faster progress in understanding the infinite. Just one more tiny step on the path of creation maybe, part of what has already been and will be again infinitely. Maybe the Wilber story is todays version of Jules Vernes 'From Earth to the Moon', then one day it will happen.
Begin reading the Bible from this frame, or many other quotes and religious books and you begin to see the words very differently.
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cosmic_troll
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2009 : 5:54:42 PM
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Hi gumpi,
It's good to hear about your recent experience with meditation. You've raised some valid concerns. I agree there's a lot that's taken on faith when it comes to spiritual matters. Hopefully in the future there will be more direct understanding about this process, so that we can view it through any lens, not just a spiritual one.
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
How can people realistically commit to regular meditation and have no expectations of results? There is something about this very issue that unsettles me deeply.
That's fair. Obviously we hope to reap some benefits from meditation. Otherwise, why do it? We at least expect to be calmer, happier, have more clarity, etc. Personally, I wouldn't advise anyone against having expectations. I would just say to keep your expectations realistic, and don't be too attached to them (i.e. don't get desperate for something to happen). Going overboard with siddhis, levitation, etc. really doesn't forward the cause, IMO.
Regarding anxiety, I think it can be a hindrance if it prevents you from being able to sit through the allotted practice time. It can also be a blessing. The reduction of anxiety over time is a very realistic, tangible result of meditation. So it can motivate you to practice, if you can see that as a possibility.
Personally, I wouldn't pay too much attention to the "spiritual crazy talk"  . I like to think it's just a phase, and meditation will take us beyond it to a place of greater clarity and truth.
Thanks for bringing up these important issues. Wishing you Peace and success, brother
With Love
cosmic |
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Lacinato
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2009 : 10:40:39 PM
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| Maybe we just can't expect what and when the results occur? But expect that there are some? That's the compromise I have made. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2009 : 11:45:04 AM
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Yes; it's not really that difficult to achieve stress reduction.
And this is a really big achievement! I don't know why people get so obsessed with expecting siddhis, divine bliss etc etc.
If you simply were to do meditation twice daily to get rid of stress, you will have much less sickness, faster healing, longer life, better digestion, slower aging, better interaction with others, better contribution to society, and more! These are things that CAN be documented by scientists.
How could this not be enough to motivate you to continue?
Scenery will probably happen along the way, but expecting anything specific can greatly slow you down. I think this may be largely because each person is very different, and you are quite likely to experience something you have never read about before. So don't try to guide things along somebody else's path. Just meditate for peace; you will find it to be much more valuable than you expected. Then your inner guru can be heard and who knows what incredible scenery is meant especially for you? |
Edited by - Etherfish on Mar 08 2009 11:46:48 AM |
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sushman
India
86 Posts |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2009 : 12:14:39 PM
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Yes, as i said at the beginning i believe meditation can help reduce stress and give relaxation. I have absolutely no problem with that. It is the rest of the b*** i don't like!
By the way, i believe expectations give people spiritual experiences because in sleepy states of consciousness we are more prone to suggestion. That is pretty much a pscyhological fact.
I'm all for meditation, i just don't believe in God. You see, free will deposits God for me. It doesn't make sense to say that fate and free will can co-exist - they definitely can not. But i won't rehash that old argument, just say that if you really do think about it it cannot be any other way. Now, that is not to say that there is not a God of some kind - there might be, but this God is not all-knowing and omnipotent, as the monotheistic religions would have us believe. If there is a God, it is finite.
So i'm all for meditating to relax.
As far as siddhis are concerned i don't believe they exist and nobody on these forums can or has demonstrated them so far. Which is convenient simply because they don't exist! It is not surprising. How do i know they don't exist? Not for me to prove but i would say it is obvious.
I do want to explain the God and free will thing a little bit more, just to clarify in case someone has a problem with it. Putting it as simply as i can, an all-knowing and omnipotent Being already knows what a person will do which means that no matter what a person does, their actions are already decided and they have no choice in the matter. And if a person did have free will (which we all do to a limited degree) then it means that there is something this omniscient Being does not and cannot know beforehand. So that rules out an omniscient God. And an all-powerful God that is not omniscient likewise makes no sense. |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2009 : 12:40:20 PM
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| I believe that God is truth. Nothing more. What is truth? Meditate and find out. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2009 : 1:49:18 PM
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| Why can't you just tell us what truth is? |
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sushman
India
86 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2009 : 2:01:16 PM
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Gumpi, how do you know you have free will for sure?
probably, we think we have freewill but don't really have. how can we prove that?
one way, we can prove is by exercising freewill at all moments? is that possible in your case? if its not possible, then one can claim that you don't have freewill at all....you just think you do bcoz your actions or thoughts coincides with the fate in some cases. |
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sushman
India
86 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2009 : 2:11:16 PM
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Gumpi,
(1) Are you sure that you are not self hypnotized with the idea that meditation provides relaxation? if someone is not getting relaxation out of meditation, they can question your claim on getting relaxation from meditation, right?
(2) Are you sure that you are not self hypnotized with the idea that one can't have spiritual experiences during meditation? probably this is stopping you from experiencing ? :)
(3) Lets assume that we are all self hypnotized. how come you did not experience anything in the initial stages when you would also have been vulnerable to self hypnotization (of getting spiritual experiences)? how did you escape that trap?
(4) So, are you the moral police of AYP now - making sure that our forumites never cross the line on reporting their experiences? LOL :)
ALL THE BEST !!! |
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mahabaratara
United Kingdom
92 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2009 : 7:47:53 PM
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quote:
If this is truly how you feel then why are you here on the AYP forums at all? Why aren't you "getting on with your life" right NOW and why are you wasting MORE time talking here?
My thoughts also. |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2009 : 9:20:24 PM
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Gumpi
I was wondering what you are hoping to achieve on this thread. Obviously, you are not going to really change anyone's mind on yoga or spiritual practice. So, all that is left is that you are expressing yourself on here simply to express your beliefs (at this moment, anyway).
I think you are no different than anyone else who has posted on here with their frustrations about yoga practice. You are saying all these things, yet you do not believe them deep down because you have you know as well as most on here - that you don't know anything. And maybe you realize that you are never going to truly know anything no matter how much you think and think and think. So, deep down you are searching and you know that spiritual practice is a tried and true way of moving closer to "reality". How? Because of it's history and because of your intuition.
You're on this thread hoping that by your doubt, skepticism, and stirring of the pot that someone will just spring a response on you that will change YOUR mind. Either that yoga is the real deal, or you are right and it is phony. Neither one is going to happen.
You're not even close to the first person on here to get frustrated and denounce the whole journey in your mind. But the funny thing is it really doesn't matter. You don't need to do yoga...you don't really NEED to do anything. So the fact that you believe it is bogus doesn't matter either. So what if it is? You'll never really know until you know.
The only measure of progress is increasing peace and joy in life. I wouldn't care if Shiva popped out of my third eye and took me on a journey through 9 dimensions while smoking ganja through his very own pipe....you can have all the "spiritual experiences" ya want, but if you're not feeling peace and joy who the hell cares?
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Edited by - anthony574 on Mar 08 2009 10:21:39 PM |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2009 : 10:47:59 PM
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Truth is what's right, not harmful, wholesome and peaceful. Truth is what let's my mind feel free and open, the right view. The path to the cessation of suffering... meditation. The truth is all things teaching me, the cosmos is my guru. The truth is my capacity to know; my mind recognizes truth, but I don't know how or why. It is a great mystery, indeed.
Love,
TMS |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Mar 08 2009 11:15:43 PM |
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realmystic
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2009 : 12:34:49 AM
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I've just read through all four pages of posts/replies on this thread, and wow, you guys are awesome! I'm laughing my ass off! When Gumpi thought someone called Natalie a troll, I split a gut. I'm glad someone explained that! Excellent!
But seriously, being an "old hand" in this racket, it's pretty plain to see who knows their stuff and who doesn't. I am SO glad I found this web site, at long last (newbie here, in case you missed that).
When people begin to "feel the burn" (exercise as a metaphor, OK?), the ego/intellect starts bucking and kicking. It doesn't want to relinquish control. We know this. Many of us went through it. I used to get mad at the smug bastards who had all the answers and acted so cool like they knew WAY more than I did. Turns out, it wasn't them, it was me. Our problem is always ourselves. Even an individual can have more than one self. Our brains compartmentalize things, and we have two hemispheres who communicate back and forth. We can have arguments with ourselves! About what we want, what we believe, what's real and what isn't. Anyway, there are a lot of reasons why I find this discussion entertaining. Argumentation is practically the antithesis of meditation, isn't it? But we love it, anyway.
So for Natalie and Gumpi, your concerns, your point of view, your issues, your emotional expression, all of that, is fine. It all gets worked out. Things change, you feel better, you catch a hint of something maybe you weren't expecting but it opens something up in your head and your heart and you go on, and you come back and do it all again. The simple truth, if I may be so bold, is that there are many, many "stages" or "levels" or "mileposts along the path." There may be a lot of reasons you don't experience some of these idealized spiritual phenomena that seem intended to lure us, but I gotta tell ya, we're not making this stuff up. Be a meditator or a yogi because you want to, or because you have a longing in your heart to follow that star until you find God in a shiny package, sitting on a doorstep. That doorstep will be your own, and that golden child will look just like you. NAMASTE / PEACE & BLESSINGS / Yogi da |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4516 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2009 : 02:00:16 AM
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Hi Realmystic,
Welcome to the forum.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4516 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2009 : 02:37:53 AM
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Hi Gumpi,
I was taught to meditate years ago in a Buddhist monestary in England. They told me that I had to sit down and close my eyes and concentrate on my breath. They said that if my mind strayed, I just had to bring it back to my breath and that the sitting would last for one hour.
I thought it would be a walk in the park.
Guess what? I couldn't do it. I couldn't even focus on my breath entirely for more than a few seconds at a time. I remember being really shocked that after so many years of education, I had almost no control over my own mind. After that I spent years practicing meditation... not to get enlightened, or to find peace, or to attain great siddhis. I just wanted to be able to concentrate on my breath for more than a few seconds at a time. It took me many years to be able to do that, and there were many times that I thought I would give up meditation because it didn't work.
Now, I am very glad that I made the effort, and I have also changed my expectations regarding what meditation can do. But some days, all I want during a sitting is to be able to just calm my mind, and keep it still and resting on one thing for a few minutes.
quote:
The trouble with all my complaining here is when it comes to God. I don't have a problem with meditation but i do have a problem with spiritual experiences because there doesn't seem to be any actual way of eliciting them.
Meditation doesn't really have anything to do with experiences... of any kind. The only relationship between experiences and meditation is that meditation is the ending of all experiences. The only thing that is worth experiencing in meditation is silence.
quote:
Bhakti in AYP is not the same as bhakti yoga. In AYP is is about using frustration to commit to regular practice, which you then practice like a ritual without expectations. In bhakti yoga it is all about devotion and concentration on the Divine where all expectation is on experiencing something spiritual. So i bring up the point again that expectation and non-expectation when it comes to God seems to be an oxymoron in terms of getting spiritual experiences. What is the answer to this?
Bhakti in AYP is spiritual desire, just as it is in all yoga. Bhakti is what makes us practice in the first place, and leads us on to further our practices. It is also a longing in the heart for something that we cannot understand. The longing gets stronger the more we practice and open.
quote:
How can people realistically commit to regular meditation and have no expectations of results? There is something about this very issue that unsettles me deeply.
I don't think this is the approach given by Yogani in the main lessons. There, exactly the opposite is the case. Yogani gives a lot of reasons why people should meditate and practice other yogic techniques, and creates the expectation in the mind of the reader that those expectations are realistic over the long term. He does stress the fact often that yoga is a marathon, not a sprint. It is about many years of practice.
Christi |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2009 : 10:23:53 AM
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| Welcome to the forum realmystic. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2009 : 10:39:21 AM
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| Great recent posts, thanks! And welcome Realmystic |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2009 : 11:15:17 AM
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Gumpi, I was thinking of you in the shower this morning. I was thinking about my own path in my two years of yoga practice. I too am skeptical of many things in the metaphysical and spiritual realm. I'm a student of massage therapy and feel deep skepticism when we're taught energy-work, Reflexology, ect. I too like things to be proven.
When I started AYP I was coming from a background of random spiritual experiences from different entheogens. I experienced yogic phenomena before I knew of any of it. So, I had plenty of belief in energy and such. I still used marijuana and LSD up until the first of this year. I used it periodically with long breaks in between phases and I think these easy experiences helped keep my faith in the "unbelievable:. The experiences I had on drugs were undeniable.
Now that I haven't used them in months I feel differently. I haven't had any of the kundalini-fueled days that seemed to stretch into oblivion. My day to day life is pretty normal and unremarkable. I have experienced phases of increasing silence and peace in my life, but that too comes and goes.
I thought this morning about your skepticism and why it seemed to strike a chord in me that lead me to react against you and discourage your beliefs. The fact is is that I relate to you in many ways. I think we have many of the same thought patterns and similar "Matrices of obtructions". I realize that it really doesn't matter if you believe or not because belief is just that - a hope. Belief can color your life and give you something to strive for. But that is why Bhakti is the fundamental element - it is the unexplainable urge to try. You can't really fail can you? Do you truly believe it is possible to waste 8 years of your life?
In my opinion and experience, the only thing to strive for is inner silence. As long as that little man in your head is claiming your conciousness I don't think it is possible to know anything. Forget everything else. Inner silence in daily life is real - that much I can say for sure. Being aware of your thoughts and watching as that part of you - the ego- dissipates for a few minutes. In those moments of inner silence ask yourself all these questions you have about yoga and life and instead of your mind computing an answer that is inevitably tainted by your culture, past, ect...it simply arises. But it is not really an answer at all because there really is no question. All there is is to just be, man. Everything else...chakras, kundalini, third eyes...you can't experience something that your ego doesn't believe in. So it doesn;t matter if you believe or not. The only thing you can do is try to get past the ego and see what's there. Got something better to do? |
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Why I don't believe in meditation
