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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 23 2009 : 3:40:47 PM
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True that. Thanks Louis.
Love,
Carson |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2009 : 3:43:37 PM
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quote:
The interface between the absolute (non-duality) and our timebound physical world of duality, in terms of interpretating this beautiful intelligence and wisdom is our thoughts.
It is how we come to understand the absolute.
That is a beautiful way of looking at it, Louis.
Thank God for thoughts  |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2009 : 3:45:03 PM
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| We cross posted, Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2009 : 3:47:48 PM
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I challenge you to a duel! |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2009 : 3:49:32 PM
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I am already dead  |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2009 : 3:51:15 PM
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Hahahaha. Thanks for the laugh. I busted a gut out loud and my forklift driver now thinks I'm totally nuts! Thanks |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2009 : 4:12:00 PM
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You're welcome
....."busted a gut out loud"......this thought...:-)....what does it mean?......
Did you tear a ligament in your abdomen from laughing? |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2009 : 4:21:05 PM
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Haha, yeah basically that's what the expression means. It's a hyperbolic statement but yeah you got the idea. You made me laugh loudly quite out of nowhere and I startled an employee who happened to be outside my office using a microwave. Don't worry, I didn't hurt anything but my ego, haha.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2009 : 7:23:07 PM
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"gut" really means intestine.
Thoughts mostly are a distraction from reality; a diversion. They are useful for communicating how to use your thinking in better ways, but that is mostly a diversion also except for survival and practical matters.
They are useful in places like these forums to point the way to no-thoughts!
But a lot of so-called spiritual talk is just sort of ego masturbation.
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2009 : 7:50:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi TMS,
I kinda see kundalini as scenery as well so....
Love,
Carson
Then, nothing is not scenery; this is also true. |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2009 : 8:51:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
"gut" really means intestine.
Thoughts mostly are a distraction from reality; a diversion. They are useful for communicating how to use your thinking in better ways, but that is mostly a diversion also except for survival and practical matters.
They are useful in places like these forums to point the way to no-thoughts!
But a lot of so-called spiritual talk is just sort of ego masturbation.
If I stroke your ego, is it ego intercourse? If you don't consent, is it ego rape? You're such an awesome guy. Honestly, your points are so well stated and profound. I really like you. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2009 : 9:16:46 PM
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Ha ha  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2009 : 05:09:41 AM
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Thoughts exist therefore there must be a reason for their existence. Do they have physical mass, form or colour ? Do they exist in a place or time ?
You can ask exactly the same questions about electricity, magnetism, gravity and light. We do not know where they come from but they are in abundance in the universe. Perhaps thoughts are the final part of the puzzle, maybe thoughts shape the universe. As one tiny part of gravity does not create a black hole, or one photon of light create a sun, then maybe thoughts permeate the universe in the same way as a huge infinite energy source.
We are receptors of those thoughts in the same way as the we feel the Sun on our skin, thought energy enters our brains and we perceive it. But we are also part of the Universe, created and not created. Existing and not existing at the same time. Just like the natural rythmn of a sine wave but in zero time.
I think there is a very natural evolution going on in a Universe that is in constant motion. As more elegant forms appear they are able to utilise those forces. We are probably just another link in that evolution, but part of the whole Universes evolution.
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2009 : 08:15:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Thoughts exist therefore there must be a reason for their existence. Do they have physical mass, form or colour ? Do they exist in a place or time ?
You can ask exactly the same questions about electricity, magnetism, gravity and light. We do not know where they come from but they are in abundance in the universe. Perhaps thoughts are the final part of the puzzle, maybe thoughts shape the universe. As one tiny part of gravity does not create a black hole, or one photon of light create a sun, then maybe thoughts permeate the universe in the same way as a huge infinite energy source.
We are receptors of those thoughts in the same way as the we feel the Sun on our skin, thought energy enters our brains and we perceive it. But we are also part of the Universe, created and not created. Existing and not existing at the same time. Just like the natural rythmn of a sine wave but in zero time.
I think there is a very natural evolution going on in a Universe that is in constant motion. As more elegant forms appear they are able to utilise those forces. We are probably just another link in that evolution, but part of the whole Universes evolution.
You cannot identify the manner in which thoughts exist; their origin; what the mind is; or where thoughts go when the phenomenon of a thought ends. Just because you say, "they exist" you cannot say that this leads to the conclusion that they have a reason.
Your thoughts are your karma, nothing more. Appearances in your substratum/continuation of experience are your karma, nothing more. In other words, you, your thoughts are your own doing. If they have a reason, your inexperience is the reason. Unless of course, you are an awakened being. But then, for you thoughts as they now occur would not.
Love,
TMS |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2009 : 08:47:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by themysticseeker
[quote]Originally posted by karl
Your thoughts are your karma, nothing more.
This is the first time I have heard it put this way.. but it makes so much sense.
Wow!!
Thanks TMS. |
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Shredder
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2009 : 09:41:17 AM
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[/quote]
You cannot identify the manner in which thoughts exist; their origin; what the mind is; or where thoughts go when the phenomenon of a thought ends. Just because you say, "they exist" you cannot say that this leads to the conclusion that they have a reason.
TMS
[/quote]
On what level are you saying "you cannot identify the manner in which thoughts exist" Although our complete understanding is at this time limited, and mine even more so, it seems like biologically you can. The bio-chemical movement of neurotransmitters is known, the source of these transmissions is the brain, the brain is put into action by stimuli received, so is it safe to assume your talking of another level? I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. The reason? does this ask what purpose is there for life? why are we here? who is creator? I think it's safe to assume we are here, and I never really pondered why? Are you saying that is unknowable? If so I tend to agree. Please forgive all the questions, but this is fascinating......shredder |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2009 : 10:00:52 AM
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Thoughts come from your karma, but they are imaginary calculations.
Like a computer grinding away at some complicated program. Inside there are only ones and zeros being thrown around, but outside there are pictures on the screen or something being controlled. Our minds are just sophisticated computers. BECAUSE there is input and output like a computer, we are fooled into thinking we are controlling something with our thoughts.
Only by taking action does anything get done, and that's where Yogani's silence in action (or is it action in silence?} comes in. The thoughts are superfluous.
Sure, we can examine action that was taken with our thoughts and imagine thoughts were necessary because of the complexity of the action. Or, we can see that complexity is built into a universe of material things. I'm not saying to do stupid things without thinking. Thinking is necessary for certain activities, then it should be shut off, but never is. The thoughts that are necessary for the activities are built into the activities if we see them from a silent perspective. For instance, once you have driven to the grocery store, you can go there again without thinking. Try it sometime! You need to be aware of what is happening in the moment, not calculating imaginary things. You will actually be a better driver than when you are thinking.
If a scientist were to write down all that is necessary for a blade of grass to grow it would be complex. But blades of grass just grow without the anal-ysis. Such an analysis would make a scientist think he understood the grass, and somehow had control, like he could make a blade of grass. But he can't!
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Edited by - Etherfish on Jan 24 2009 10:08:46 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2009 : 10:21:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Thoughts come from your karma, but they are imaginary calculations.
Here is how I see it.. thoughts don't come from karma.. they are your karma. One situation can cause a lot of pain to one, but the same situation can be dealt with much less pain for another (or the same one after they have had some spiritual awakening).. and to a realized soul it wont matter.. so it is bad karma for one and not so bad karma for another and is no karma for the third. How can one situation have that many degrees.. it is how bound you are.. it depends on how much you think you are your thoughts.. it is your karma.
Do you see what I am trying to say Ether? |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2009 : 12:01:31 PM
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Yes you can transcend the bad feeling of karma without getting rid of it. I was saying thoughts are an indulgence that is not necessary. Karma is what creates the kind of thoughts we have when we choose to indulge in thoughts. Meditation is choosing not to indulge in thoughts, while at the same time loosening our identification with them, which carries out into reality after meditation.
So there is always that freedom of choice to repeat the same thought patterns, even when we have transcended the reasons to do so.
Fortunately, transcending makes that desire fade away. I don't know about others, but I'm an addictive type; I tend to grab at desires once in a while because I used to like them. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2009 : 12:43:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by themysticseeker
You cannot identify the manner in which thoughts exist; their origin; what the mind is; or where thoughts go when the phenomenon of a thought ends. Just because you say, "they exist" you cannot say that this leads to the conclusion that they have a reason.
Your thoughts are your karma, nothing more. Appearances in your substratum/continuation of experience are your karma, nothing more. In other words, you, your thoughts are your own doing. If they have a reason, your inexperience is the reason. Unless of course, you are an awakened being. But then, for you thoughts as they now occur would not.
Love,
TMS
Although you can ponder your own 'none existence' it is difficult to deny that you do exist and the thoughts that go with that existence.
It might be said that perfect silence can only be attributed to objects without a consciousness even if on one level the whole universe is singing.
It is difficult to make sense of a universe which exists without a purpose. If the purpose of existence was silence and stillness then the universe need not exist at all as it would achieve it's own aims.
Thought and 'none' thought could exist together. So while you are having that moment of stillness you are really experiencing pure thought and in the moment your head is full of noise you could be experiencing pure stillness.
This is where 1=0, where both ends meet in a natural circle which has no end or beginning. The existence is neither true or 'not true' at any point it seems to be measurable in relation to your own standpoint.
So the same question can be asked. Can a thought exist and not exist, have meaning and not have meaning. What would be the purpose and not the purpose?
As I said before. Imagine an ac waveform swinging through positive, then zero, then negative. At +ve and -ve the wave seems to have a measurable value, but the value is meaningless it is just a value. When the waveform is at zero then both values are cancelled out and nothing exists. If you imagine the waveform oscillating in zero time then it passes through all points simultaneously. We see this as a straight line when really it describes a circle which is infinitely small, a point, a singularity which has both a value and a none value.
This really is a discussion point, I have no idea that any of that makes sense, I can't claim to be a supernatural scientist, but certain things have a natural order and when examined they have a simplicity. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2009 : 09:58:05 AM
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Hi all
quote:
TMS said:
Your thoughts are your karma, nothing more. Appearances in your substratum/continuation of experience are your karma, nothing more. In other words, you, your thoughts are your own doing. If they have a reason, your inexperience is the reason. Unless of course, you are an awakened being. But then, for you thoughts as they now occur would not.
quote:
Shanti said:
Here is how I see it.. thoughts don't come from karma.. they are your karma. One situation can cause a lot of pain to one, but the same situation can be dealt with much less pain for another (or the same one after they have had some spiritual awakening).. and to a realized soul it wont matter.. so it is bad karma for one and not so bad karma for another and is no karma for the third. How can one situation have that many degrees.. it is how bound you are.. it depends on how much you think you are your thoughts.. it is your karma.
I would agree with that to a point, except that we could say that the misuse of thoughts is karma. I would see thoughts coming in the form of insight, of creativity, of invention as being one step back from that.
The one step back is into inner silence, and tapping into the vast intelligence that is there, is seen in the form of thoughts. If we don't get attached to those pure thoughts and just act out of them as they arise and let them go then we have stillness in action.
If we have any function as humans with the capacity of thought, it must be to be able to manifest the intelligence of inner silence into some sort of blossoming.
With the use of meditation and self inquiry we can learn to tap more and more into the pure blossoming of life through correct use of the pure thoughts that come through us out of silence.
In this way we can come through the growing pains of life, which is the karma and incorrect use of thoughts, and blossom in joy and love and peace.(as you all blossom)
Some thoughts from the dark side
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2009 : 12:23:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
I would see thoughts coming in the form of insight, of creativity, of invention as being one step back from that.
Insights.. inner knowing are not thoughts. When Katrine writes hers poetry.. the words flow. She does not have a thought on what to write next. It's inspiration/inner knowing flowing through her in words.. not thoughts. When I write posts these days.. and later read them.. the words are not familiar to me.. because they don't come from thoughts.. they come from inner knowing of what needs to be put out there.
Inner knowing flows through different mediums.. through a pen (or key stokes) for a writer/poet, a paint brush for an artist, a piano or instrument for a musician, spoken words for an orator. But these inspirations are a flow thru a medium that is beyond the mind. When the mind is present.. the flow is constricted. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2009 : 1:05:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
I would see thoughts coming in the form of insight, of creativity, of invention as being one step back from that.
Insights.. inner knowing are not thoughts. When Katrine writes hers poetry.. the words flow. She does not have a thought on what to write next. It's inspiration/inner knowing flowing through her in words.. not thoughts. When I write posts these days.. and later read them.. the words are not familiar to me.. because they don't come from thoughts.. they come from inner knowing of what needs to be put out there.
Inner knowing flows through different mediums.. through a pen (or key stokes) for a writer/poet, a paint brush for an artist, a piano or instrument for a musician, spoken words for an orator. But these inspirations are a flow thru a medium that is beyond the mind. When the mind is present.. the flow is constricted.
Hi Shanti
I guess my idea of a pure thought is not involved in a "thinking process" - it is a thought or idea that just pops into ones head as a solution to a problem, as an invention, as a creative idea.
Like say when we let something go in samyama and later the solution reveals itself -this is not a thinking process, but in order to be able to recognise the solution it comes in the form of a thought or collection of thoughts, and we might say ahha!! or eureka!!
A question I have often asked people is: What is the origin of a "creative idea or thought". Mostly they either don't know or they say it's a deduction process. For me it's an idea or thought emerging out of silence.
Perhaps channelling or automatic writing is different, I don't know as I don't experience that, but it appears that people just open their mouths and the words flow, or the words just get written.
But these are not insights or inner knowings, in my view.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2009 : 10:21:22 PM
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I've found inspiration comes much quicker than thoughts. If I am lost, and say "Which way should I go?", the first thought that comes into my mind is the best. Then the mind says "No, wait a minute, I have to calculate."
I think most adults have learned to cover up that first thought so they don't even see it. But as you get quiet, it becomes more prevalent again. Then sometimes your mind tries to fool you by saying something quickly, but that first thought comes from the outside, not the mind. |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2009 : 11:26:31 AM
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To the extent thoughts arise from contacts they exist. To the extent the contacts arise from your volition they exist. To the extent that your volitions arise from your desire and attachment they exist. This is all your doing; this is karma.
To the extent that you don't desire, don't cling, don't will, and don't contact, thoughts don't arise.
Your consciousness, your thoughts, your contacts, your actions are your desires. Your desires are your karma. This is one stream of becoming existence: desiring.
The cessation of desire opens the window to the ... |
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