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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 03 2005 : 12:42:17 AM
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Why one path2god is better than the other?
Isnt bhakthi the most important thing? We are lucky to be given this knowledge of AYP. But what about a sincere aspirant who knows only a lesser path than AYP but struggles with more devotion than us?
Why should somebody be at loss because he doesnt know the right "technique". Why do only certain paths work? Why do only certain words have power? Why cant I just take any word and meditate on it and reach the same goal?
-Near
This World is a great gymnasium where we have come to make ourselves strong - Vivekananda |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2005 : 10:31:52 AM
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Hi Near!
The thing is that how can you know who is where and who is on a 'better' path? I know ppl who aren't interested in a spiritual practice at all not even bhakti and are clearly better individuals than myself (e.g. one is more positive and efficient another is less selfish etc).
I don't know the answer to your question on practices knowledge vs spiritual advancement but I guess first it makes sense to ask whether the two are correlated. I don't know many people who are interested in spiritual things but from the folks who aren't there are plenty whose level I can't hope to reach even after 10 yrs of daily practice. (Funnily some of those aren't even interested in learning the AYP practices which I am advertising heavily left right and center) |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 04 2005 : 5:16:47 PM
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>> Why should somebody be at loss because he doesnt know the right "technique".
This is an interesting question. I've struggled with it before. I'm not sure it has any greatly satisfying answer.
Another way of putting it is that some of the obstacles to 'god-realization' seem to be merely 'technical'. And this 'technicalness' of the obstacles (or their removal) seem to be lacking in meaning.
We might expect all removal of obstacles to have 'meaning' to us. As if all of our transitions follow a very meaningful lesson.
All I can say is that some important advances we make don't seem to have any meaning on the surface. For example, if A finds a good technique but B, equally interested in god-realization, finds a bad one, what does this mean? A has made an advance that B has not, and it does not seem to come from any greater deservingness on A's part. And yet A may indeed advance faster.
One way to reconcile this with meaning is through reincarnation, that is, the idea that A finds the better technique because A has earned it in a past life for whatever reason. This, if true, seems to imply to me that karmic patterns are quite complex and how 'good' a person is/seems (or not) doesn't necessarily have a very direct or obvious connection to what they will get in terms of opportunity for enlightenment in a particular life.
I expect that our development, while generally advancing, is not 'monotonic', that is, it fluctuates on up and down patterns as different energies flow through us. If negative effects manifest in Tom and not in Mary, that does not mean that Mary is fundamentally purer and more developed than Tom -- perhaps negative effects stored for Mary haven't kicked in yet. We should keep that in mind when we see beggars in the street. Maybe we are well behind them in the big scheme of things.
The other thing is that 'purity' and 'development' are two different things. One can be very developed but not very pure (e.g. Rajneesh), and pure but not very developed (Mother Teresa). Ramana Maharshi -- remarkably developed and remarkably pure.
-David
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Oct 04 2005 : 7:15:37 PM
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Hello All,
David makes some good points. Especially on the reincarnation/karma aspect. We have all gotten to this level because of our karmic tendencies.
And Near, you are right that sometimes bhakti is all that it takes.
Techniques can be very important and I can repeat the adage that "when the student is ready, the teacher appears", which certainly seems to be the case for myself and the AYP/Yogani connection.
And Dear Lili! You're 10 years of practice does not go unheeded. I bet if you look back over the years you will see how much all of your hard work and dedication has improved your spirit. Keep on keeping on!
So no, Near, I do not believe that there is one path to God. All paths lead to God eventually (could take many many lifetimes). But some are more direct, some more scenic, some more murky.... AYP seems to be a more direct route with less bumps in the road - that's all.
With Peace and Respect,
Paul |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 04 2005 : 10:51:47 PM
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David wrote:
______________________________________________________________________
Another way of putting it is that some of the obstacles to 'god-realization' seem to be merely 'technical'. And this 'technicalness' of the obstacles (or their removal) seem to be lacking in meaning.
______________________________________________________________________
Hi David,
I like this post and here are some thoughts for whatever they are worth.
You got me thinking with this and I believe that "techniques" are simply methods to channel one's focus on a desired outcome. For example, the technique for the various mudras and mantras in AYP are methods to repeat our intentions for a desired outcome to occur, without distraction, until it manifests. I think the more dedicated and focussed this "intention" on the desired outcome, the more quickly it manifests. In otherwords, the better the technique, the faster the goal is realized.
In terms of what makes or what happens when "person A" finds the better technique over "person B" etc., like Paul, I believe that if the desire is true, "person A" will not only attract the tools he or she needs to reach their goal, but that they would also recognize if they came accross a technique that wasn't right for them at that moment in time. Issues that cloud like too much attachment to success/ fear etc. or any "untrue" motivations could lead "person B" to hang on to a technique that deep down they know doesn't fit.
In regards to karma or how easy or difficult a person's life experiences are; one theory I like is that it is a function of what they have come to learn and how much they can handle learning (we all know how very challenging life's lessons can be). I think the harder the life, the greater the learning and of course the person in question has to be able to handle all the bumps.
I am sure I have read a quote somewhere along the lines of "difficult lives come to those who can handle it the most". Or maybe this is just what they tell people who have a ton of bad luck! |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2005 : 07:13:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by lucidinterval1
And Dear Lili! You're 10 years of practice does not go unheeded. I bet if you look back over the years you will see how much all of your hard work and dedication has improved your spirit. Keep on keeping on!
The 10 year referred to the future 10 /or 9  cause I already did 1/yrs practice. I don't count the past 10 years because it was on and off and only consisted of pranayama and asanas.
quote:
I am sure I have read a quote somewhere along the lines of "difficult lives come to those who can handle it the most".
Yes I also read yesterday a book by Robin Norwood called Why me why now? who said the same. I got a bit depressed though because she described many cases in which very hard situations are seen as needed I mean who likes to suffer. This is why I like so much better Yogani's books because they focus much more on positive and enjoyable things. |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2005 : 09:10:40 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Lili
The 10 year referred to the future 10 /or 9 cause I already did 1/yrs practice. I don't count the past 10 years because it was on and off and only consisted of pranayama and asanas.
Ha Ha! 9 - 10 more years of AYP and you'll be sitting on cloud 9! 
Sow the seeds and don't look back
Paul |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2005 : 10:29:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
This, if true, seems to imply to me that karmic patterns are quite complex and how 'good' a person is/seems (or not) doesn't necessarily have a very direct or obvious connection to what they will get in terms of opportunity for enlightenment in a particular life.
I expect that our development, while generally advancing, is not 'monotonic', that is, it fluctuates on up and down patterns as different energies flow through us. If negative effects manifest in Tom and not in Mary, that does not mean that Mary is fundamentally purer and more developed than Tom -- perhaps negative effects stored for Mary haven't kicked in yet.
Very good points there David.
This World is a great gymnasium where we have come to make ourselves strong - Vivekananda |
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sm9999999999
2 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2005 : 10:49:30 AM
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This is my first time at posting something.. so please forgive me if I am wrong or out of my league.
All of you have really wonderful things to say and I feel really lucky to be a part of this forum. Yogani has encouraged me to write here and I am going to try. I agree with David, that a lot of it has to do with re-incarnation. In India, almost everybody is exposed to yoga to some degree, and in a lot of cases it is more a form of exercise, than spiritual. I grew up in a family where my father was into meditation and alternate healing for as long as I can remember. After I came to the US, I got more into meditation.. on and off. About a year back I had reached a point where I needed more.. so I started looking. I came upon this web site and it has changed my life. The point I am trying to make is, depending on your progress different opportunities will come your way...I have told my father about this site, but he will not try it, he has his guru and will do only what his guru tells him, I have told others, but they are not yet ready to get into this. So, although all the people I have talked to, have a chance to follow the AYP teachings, only those who are ready will do it.
I dont think there is a right way and a wrong way, just because the AYP method works great for me and all of you, it does not mean that it is the right way for all, and depending upon your progress and spiritual evolution you may find this the absolute perfect way.. or some other technique the absolute perfect way. In this process if you land up with a guru or a technique that may harm you.. well that is an experience you had to go through and overcome... there is nothing that can be done to prevent it. You can watch a person doing something that will harm him(spiritually or otherwise), you can tell him that it is wrong, but unless he is ready to listen to you...there is nothing you or anybody can do.
I am grateful to Yogani for giving me this wonderful opportunity to learn something that has made me a better person. I will continue telling everybody about this wonderful site... But when God wants them to take this step..its only then they will do it....So it is not luck that had helped you find this site..it was God's will....because if not, like may others you could have seen this site and ignored it.... |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2005 : 1:11:37 PM
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Welcome to the forum. I am glad you found this, and we are glad to have you here and we appreciate your sharing that with us.
Do tell us your name (or certainly, use a nickname or handle if you want to keep you name private). I for one, am reluctant to call you sm9999999999 without your permission!
quote:
Originally posted by sm9999999999
This is my first time at posting something.. so please forgive me if I am wrong or out of my league.
If you are wrong or out of your league, you have come to the right place. We are all wrong and out of our league here, both at AYP forum and within Maya in general. But we look for the light here at AYP, and keep to it as well as we can. And knowing we can be wrong is one of the strong new lights we have.
-David
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2005 : 4:55:33 PM
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Hello 999 - I know what you mean about telling people about the AYP site. I can't tell you how many people I've told - MANY - and with a lot of enthusiasm! But not one of them has even checked it out. Remarkable. It's out of our hands - we can just be grateful for having it appear when we were ready.
:)
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2005 : 7:38:31 PM
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Thanks Melissa. I am doing good. I hope all is fine with you too. And well, David asked me to pick a name.. so I did, going forward instead of SM9999 I will be Shanti. Well my grandma would have liked to name me Shanti anyway. Thanks all for not making me feel like I was absolutely clueless about what I was saying. I hope we all find what we are looking for and more, in this life time itself.
-Shanti |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2005 : 11:22:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
This, if true, seems to imply to me that karmic patterns are quite complex and how 'good' a person is/seems (or not) doesn't necessarily have a very direct or obvious connection to what they will get in terms of opportunity for enlightenment in a particular life.
I expect that our development, while generally advancing, is not 'monotonic', that is, it fluctuates on up and down patterns as different energies flow through us. If negative effects manifest in Tom and not in Mary, that does not mean that Mary is fundamentally purer and more developed than Tom -- perhaps negative effects stored for Mary haven't kicked in yet. We should keep that in mind when we see beggars in the street. Maybe we are well behind them in the big scheme of things.
Our karma (both good and bad) is so vast that I think one life is not sufficient to make all of it manifest. So if you get more good karma manifested in this life that need not mean you are better than other person in the overall scheme as david points out. Similarly a person who appears bad need not be really so. So hitler might not be really bad but only an example of the case where a lot of bad karma got manifested in one life!
There is a purpose of even such bad people. They indirectly make others good. Everything is a balance and "probably" for overall progress. I think this bad and good karma gets manifested for each person in such a way that we all make better progress as a species.
Infact thats the reason why we spiritual aspirants have more bad karma than good ppl who arent interested in spirituality. We are anyway going to burn it off, so the more bad karma we get in this life the better!
This World is a great gymnasium where we have come to make ourselves strong - Vivekananda |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2005 : 12:28:01 PM
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Near - You bring up some interesting points around "good" vs. "bad" people. Presumably we're all just doing what our hearts are telling us to do, and sometimes that manifests as Good, and sometimes as Bad. But they're all just labels - we only see what's on this side of the veil - our ideas about good vs. bad are based upon our limited understanding of the way things are. Our society's need to punish "evil" is really just a deep insecurity around the darkness that's within ourselves.
It's interesting to me that throughout the AYP topics, there are continual allusions to reincarnation, as if it was a given. I think of it as a great idea, but not so different than the Christian "given" of heaven and hell. Can anyone explain to me why it's so universally embraced on this forum? (and elsewhere?) I'm not being cynical, if it sounds that way - I genuinely would like to know the foundation of this teaching. Scriptural references? That kind of thing. Thanks!
meg |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2005 : 1:52:14 PM
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Hi Meg:
Just to clarify, a belief in reincarnation, or, in fact, whether it exists or not, is not a prerequisite for the AYP approach. It is used as a talking point that many are familiar with to explain the diverse tendencies we are born with, even in the same genetic family. Maybe these tendencies come from somewhere else. It doesn't really matter, as long as we have the means to unwind them in a way that leads to a higher quality of life here and now. "Then" and "when" don't matter much. What we are doing now is everything.
What is important is that we find the motivation to practice, and that is the manifestation our bhakti, which is entirely personal and does not require a specific belief system -- not here anyway.
It has been said that "reincarnation is for the ignorant." That is a clever play on words that carries several meanings, pro and con.
As for making the case for reincarnation, there is a ton of literature out there, pertaining to all religions, or no religion at all. The death and dying (life before and after death) movement is an entity unto itself these days. The AYP book list has a section on it too: http://www.aypsite.org/booklist14.html
The guru is in you.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2005 : 12:38:18 AM
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Hi Meg,
If we start discussion on re-incarnation it will become another thread by itself. Good that you have questioned it. I too heard about it lot of times before but for the first time started thinking it might be true when Yogani used it in one of the lessons (For this life and the next one http://www.aypsite.org/74.html).
Later as I kept reading lot of online spirituality related things, I got it confirmed that it is really true. If there is only one life, how can we explain the differences with which each person is born? Isnt god injust in creating one person with all riches, intelligence and everything while at the same time creating beggars on street? Only the concept of past lives can explain these differences ascribing it to past karma that each has made.
The above conclusion is based on existence of a god and we beleieving him to be just. We could say that there is no god at all and all these differences are just heriditary and there's only one life. If everything that we get is heriditary, how can buddha the greatest human being ever lived is born to a normal person? How were all great spiritual personalities or great business tycoons born to very normal parents? There is something more than parental genes that each of us have; smthing unique.
According to vedas, each soul takes a body that fits its karma and is born to such parents where the heriditary qualities match with the soul's past karma.
God never appears directly before us, everything he does, he makes sure has an worldly explanation too. The soul being born into family where the heriditary qualities match with past karma is also to decieve us. In lives of many spiritual ppl he interferes and helps them but at the same time it also appears like a coincidence. He wants to test our belief. How strongly do we beleive him? But as we practice more and more these experiences grow more and more and we realize it is not any coincidence.
This World is a great gymnasium where we have come to make ourselves strong - Vivekananda |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2005 : 12:42:32 PM
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Thank you for your responses. I glanced at the references, and will check them out more thoroughly. I agree with you, Near - this is another thread, but I'll leave that up to the moderator. I've been uncomfortable with reincarnation and its assurances for a long time, probably b'c it feels to me like all the other futile attempts to explain that which we simply do not, cannot, know. In my born-again days I was a big apologist for the Christian belief system, so conclusions and rock-solid proofs have the feel of desperation or clinging to them. But I truly speak from ignorance, therefore I'll dig a little deeper before I draw any conclusions against reincarnation.
I especially like what you wrote, Yogani: "What we are doing now is everything", b'c that takes away all the safety nets and rationalizations about the future, and forces me into the present, hopefully (progressively!) without delusions. This is, I think, the best "path2god".
meg
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2005 : 12:56:17 PM
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Snitz forums doesn't have the ability to move individual posts into a new thread. Until it does (hopefully it will) once a new topic is opened in a given thread, we are stuck with either abandoning it or following it.
>> In my born-again days I was a big apologist for the Christian belief system, so conclusions and rock-solid proofs have the feel of desperation or clinging to them.
I used to be a true believer in reincarnation. Now I am totally agnostic about it, though I often speak from its point of view, and say what it should mean if it were true. I can say one thing though --- if the universe were designed by someone/something smart, I think reincarnation would be a good design.
-D
quote:
Originally posted by meg
Thank you for your responses. I glanced at the references, and will check them out more thoroughly. I agree with you, Near - this is another thread, but I'll leave that up to the moderator. I've been uncomfortable with reincarnation and its assurances for a long time, probably b'c it feels to me like all the other futile attempts to explain that which we simply do not, cannot, know. In my born-again days I was a big apologist for the Christian belief system, so conclusions and rock-solid proofs have the feel of desperation or clinging to them. But I truly speak from ignorance, therefore I'll dig a little deeper before I draw any conclusions against reincarnation.
I especially like what you wrote, Yogani: "What we are doing now is everything", b'c that takes away all the safety nets and rationalizations about the future, and forces me into the present, hopefully (progressively!) without delusions. This is, I think, the best "path2god".
meg
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2005 : 12:46:13 PM
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| Great idea, Melissa! Just think of the compassion that would generate. |
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Ute
39 Posts |
Posted - Oct 09 2005 : 9:41:36 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by david_obsidian
--- if the universe were designed by someone/something smart, I think reincarnation would be a good design.
-D
Yeah, especially if that someone wasn't into micro-managing 
Ute
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sauravu
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - Oct 20 2005 : 5:22:33 PM
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Mayaa --Just Ideas
According to Quantum theory . All matter are waves called matter waves created by concentrated bursts of energy (The reverse process is the atomic bombs ). The matter waves are continuous or analogous that would mean the same waves would pervade everywhere existing in all the places at the same time. -- Concept of Maya. Now when these waves collide with each other they form crests and troughs - energy concentrations - creating the discrete matter . Therefore in essence all the matter is the manifestation of the same wave. -- Radha Krishna leela . That would mean you are me and everyone else . We only choose to see each other diffrently. -- Realm of Maya or its manifestations . |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2005 : 9:27:58 PM
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Nothing new, but maybe a different way of putting it:
1) Reincarnation is sort of a moot point. What happens after death cannot be known for sure until we die. If we believe that the creater is perfect, then there is a reason for that. If we believe that life is an accident and there is no purpose, then it doesn't matter. I think the concepts of heaven and hell are encrypted in the bible, and were meant to refer to states we encounter during our lives. They have been twisted by authorities in organized religion because those concepts can be used to force you to live the way they want because the outcome cannot be verified. There is supposed to be reference to reincarnation in the bible too. But it doesn't matter to me because what happens after death should not occupy very much of our time. We are here to control what happens during life.
If you're a Christian you may want to spend your life preparing for heaven, and I have nothing against that. However you may want to study the origin of the bible, the canons, Martin Luthor, and contemplate why Jesus didn't write any of it. I believe it is because the written word isn't very good at carrying spiritual truths, especially in western languages. A lot of people are obsessed with controlling others instead of spiritual advancement.
2) The original topic of different paths: This seems like such a wonderful path to us because we are ready for it. it's not any better than the paths other people are taking; it's just what we need right now. The best path for someone else might be something totally disgusting to us. A long time ago I was into Carlos Castaneda books which is new-age, sorcery, no mention of God, many people think it's of the devil. But it helped me tremendously, I won't go into the details, but I sensed the truth in it, which I now believe was borrowed from ancient yoga stuff. i liked the fact that God was never mentioned because I was sick of organized religion and what they told us about God was on their side, and he is a jealous God, and punishes people for eternity if you don't do what they say, and yet "God is love." So it was the sorcery that finally led me to hindu beliefs years later when I was trying to fill in the gaps. now I have a strong belief in God, but know he's not what many people think.
What I'm getting at is that many paths to God may look like they are not paths to God at all, and yet they can be helping people. Conversely, I bet there are people out there who could be distracted from their path if you forced them to do these practices that we have found to be so wonderful. So it's not so much a matter of people not "finding the good stuff", as it is us not comprehending where they are at. Good thing we all have some sort of divine guidance to show us what is best. So if we could see what sort of guidance each person is getting, and somehow encourage them to take it, it is probably better than trying to show them our path. Once we start radiating divine energy, I'm sure plenty of people will ask about our path.
Etherfish |
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Concept of "better" path
