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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 12:08:02 AM
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Hey Carson,
How could you not watch youtube - doesn't it play when you click the link? I used to watch even with dial-up. As soon as it starts to play, click "pause" and do something else while it loads, then it will play without stopping.
But maybe you don't have sound.
The video is from this site:
http://www.reuniting.info/
It talks about how we are hormonally built to not be monogamous, because being promiscuous is better for survival of the human race.
The way it works is when we are sexually attracted, it raises our dopamine level in the limbic system of our brain. this is the most primitive part of our brain. This is the same thing that happens with addictive drugs. We like the feeling so much we seek it out.
When we have an orgasm, the dopamine peaks much stronger than normal levels. But this peak is followed by a dive in the level which goes up and down erratically for up to two weeks, all the while BELOW normal levels, as a result of the orgasm.
This causes couples who have just had sex to not get along as well afterwords for up to two weeks.
It results in all kinds of alienating feelings until dopamine levels return to normal. Every time they have orgasms, there is the peak followed by lows.
If a couple is pre-orgasmic, their dopamine levels follow more of a sine wave, gently rising up and down with no peak and no crash to low levels.
not only this, but another hormone is generated, oxytocin, the "cuddle hormone". This is what makes you feel good when you cuddle, and makes people want to be close.
So learning to stay with pre-orgasmic sex will cause a couple to be much more in love, and much more in harmony with each other, because they never reach that dopamine crash that makes them argue, and there is much more oxytocin, an added benefit that makes them feel good when they hold each other.
The video says it better, but that's the best I can do. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Jan 11 2009 09:30:12 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 02:22:30 AM
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Hi Neptune,
quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
Just have orgasm. What's the problem? Otherwise your relationship will suffer. Nothing is lost energetically in having orgasms. That's an antiquated and absurd notion from the past. Pretty narcissistic situation sounds like to me.
The problem with me having orgasm is my relationship with the Source suffers. If I don't have an orgasm then my relationship suffers. Which would YOU choose? Man or God? Short term satisfaction or eternal peace? The answer for ME is easy. And I DO have some serious energy loss with orgasm. And you can't tell me I don't.
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 02:23:31 AM
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Hi Scott,
quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Hey Carson,
I see more of what you're saying now, and agree with you.
Here's another way to think about the situation:
If she gets no pleasure from orgasm, and you don't want to orgasm, and your relationship is fine...then why not actually go full out celibate?
I have found that the sexual energy is much better that way. Stronger, clearer, more grounded.
Just an idea.
Definitely one worth thining about as well. Thanks for the suggestion!
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 02:27:57 AM
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Hi Albert,
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
If I were you, shorter time of pre-orgasm then ALWAYS have orgasm because non-ejac orgasm will fix more things between you and your wife.
I'm really trying to avoid having orgasms at all. I feel MUCH better when I don't. I lose so much energy even with blocked orgasms. I know everyone is not like this, and I probably won't be forever either, but it definitely is like this for me right now.
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 02:36:25 AM
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Hi Etherfish
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
How could you not watch youtube - doesn't it play when you click the link? I used to watch even with dial-up. As soon as it starts to play, click "pause" and do something else while it loads, then it will play without stopping.
I can't watch youtube videos at home because the only computer I have at home that works now is a Mac G4 that has always been dedicated to my recording studio and has some software on it that cannot be upgraded without spending many thousands of dollars and this means I have to run OS 9.2.2. Which does not support many websites these days. I'm lucky I can still get AYP! I can't even check my email on this computer. And the computer I use at work has a "smartfilter" on it and youtube is blocked.
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
The video is from this site:
http://www.reuniting.info/
It talks about how we are hormonally built to not be monogamous, because being promiscuous is better for survival of the human race.
The way it works is when we are sexually attracted, it raises our dopamine level in the limbic system of our brain. this is the most primitive part of our brain. This is the same thing that happens with addictive drugs. We like the feeing so much we seek it out.
When we have an orgasm, the dopamine peaks much stronger than normal levels. But this peak is followed by a dive in the level which goes up and down erratically for up to two weeks, all the while BELOW normal levels, as a result of the orgasm.
This causes couples who have just had sex to not get along as well afterwords for up to two weeks.
It results in all kinds of alienating feelings until dopamine levels return to normal. Every time they have orgasms, there is the peak followed by lows.
If a couple is pre-orgasmic, their dopamine levels follow more of a sine wave, gently rising up and down with no peak and no crash to low levels.
not only this, but another hormone is generated, oxytocin, the "cuddle hormone". This is what makes you feel good when you cuddle, and makes people want to be close.
So learning to stay with pre-orgasmic sex will cause a couple to be much more in love, and much more in harmony with each other, because they never reach that dopamine crash that makes them argue, and there is much more oxytocin, an added benefit that makes them feel good when they hold each other.
The video says it better, but that's the best I can do.
Thanks for the explanation! I have heard of many studies like this, many of which state that we can no longer "get high" (on dopamine) from our partners after I think the timeframe was 7 years. That statistic combined with what you are saying should be more then enough to convince ANYONE to stay pre-orgasmic! haha. I will have my wife read what you wrote or have her check out the website in the morning. Thank you again for all your advice and thoughtful suggestions.
Love,
Carson |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 03:13:31 AM
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Hi Carzon,I agree with Etherfish. Marnia Robinson writes a lot about this on www.reuniting.info. Check that site out!
It seems as if this orgasm thing can start off a pretty deep work in your wife! If she has been sexually abused, as you strongly believe (or know), then she has a lot of layers to go through!
I think you are on the right track with her, the way you meet her needs! She has to slowly gain trust in a sexual situation again, and losen her conditionings. That can take a long time! You are actually helping her A LOT by taking this subject to discussion - by that you are breaking her conditioned response to only have any self-worth through satisfying a man by giving him an orgasm. I see much more of the picture now, from what you've told, and this has been the area of my research work for 12 years, so trust me, I know what I'm talking about! I wrote my thesis on the importance of a partner for sexual abuse survivors.
It is a shaky period for her, I'm sure. All her stability is in keeping things as they were. When things start to change, she will have to start facing her worst parts of the psyche. It takes a great deal of patience and understanding from the partner, and you seem to have it! She is lucky!
If I were you, I'd sort of start from the beginning with "sex". What is sex for you? Is it only a full penetration? For me, sex is being intimate physically in all possible ways. What if you back a few steps and just start to do a lot of caressing? Just being naked with eachother and explore the whole bodies, as if it was the first time you were to touch it, with hands, mouth... whatever! That can be a difficult thing!!! It can bring up masses of bodily shame and discomfort, then that is what has to be attended to first. If you get into it though, it can bring tremendous relaxation (oxytocin being released, same hormone that releases during meditation), sensuality awakening, and building trust. Just carressing that way can bring a couple together in intimacy again. Arousal can come and go in such situation. It will be a first step for her to practice RECEIVING, which seems to be her problem. Many victims of abuse have great problems being sensually touched. If she has a lot of bodily blockages that will be tough for her, and she might get memories of abuse etc. Then just let her control it fully and let her be able to stop it anytime. And most important: If she gets emotional in that situation - just hold her! Hold her in stillness and BE there for her! It's the greatest gift you can give! I've gotten reports from many male friends who have started to do this with their girlfriends, and they say "She just starts to cry and cry when I just hold her". That's the way it works. When the man is truly not sexually WANTING in a situation like that, but truly unselfish and attending her needs, which obviously is NOT you having an orgasm (=keeping the abuse patterns intact for psychological stability), but to release those nightmares in a safe environment, then miracles can take place!!! Healing of tremendous proportions can take place! A woman wants to be Loved and cleansed from the old abusive sexuality. You can help her with that! |
Edited by - emc on Jan 11 2009 04:14:06 AM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 07:23:46 AM
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Hi Carson,
Does your wife masturbates ?
If yes, does she accept to do it in front of you ?
Which "kama sutra" or "position" your wife accepts to a reach an orgasm when you touch her ?
I also suggest you shift to tantric mirror technique of the all situation: you prefer to not orgasm to not dissolve a wound in you and she wants you to orgasm to avoid her sexual abuse memory. In other words, she reflects a blockage in you and you reflect a blockage in your wife. The approach would be for you to energy work in solo-tantra both aspects (internal & external).
In Shakti, Albert
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 09:18:32 AM
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quote:
The only suffering caused by staying pre-orgasmic is the suffering my wife seems to feel she is going through. And this is why I posted this. I don't want her to suffer. But I don't want to put what I know is important to my journey aside just to ease her suffering when her suffering is totally unnecessary and self-imposed. I'd rather help her see through the suffering and continue on my journey. Is this really all that selfish?
Hi Carson,
You posted the above quote in response to Michael. This is a very interesting subject by the way.
The way I see it, your own purification and opening is bond to spread to the world around you, first affecting the ones closer to you, in turn finding blocks and bringing in a need to more openings. It seems to me you have a clear and sober view on things and you are reasoning well ("the force (inner silence) is strong in you Luke!" ). In my opinion it won't help if you compromise to her need for you to have an orgasm because, even if that brings immediate relief to her suffering of the idea she is not satisfying you, it is not, in the long term, solving anything. As you put it, there are issues she seems to have to deal with and I believe you can help her do that if she is willing to try.
So, bottom line, go with your heart as it seems to me that you are thinking and seeing things with clarity. This is a journey that affects all of us, we are not alone. We who are travelling the path are not only responsible for our own opening but for the opening of all around us because ultimately we are all the same, it is not a 'me versus them' thing at all.
Hope it helps a little and all the best my friend! |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 09:27:50 AM
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Wow thanks EMC,
I didn't know oxytocin was released by meditation.
Yes, sexual abuse victims can be extremely sensitive. I had a close friend who was abused by her ex, and she seemed perfectly open about discussing sexual subjects. Then one day I asked to wear a shirt that was revealing, and she had worn it three other times with me. She blew up, cut off our friendship, and I haven't seen her since!
So Carson, keep in mind that your woman may be upset that we are talking about this subject. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Jan 11 2009 09:34:47 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 12:19:22 PM
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Hi emc and thank you for your very informative posting!
quote:
Originally posted by emc
It seems as if this orgasm thing can start off a pretty deep work in your wife! If she has been sexually abused, as you strongly believe (or know), then she has a lot of layers to go through!
Yes this is how I see it as well.
quote:
Originally posted by emc
I think you are on the right track with her, the way you meet her needs! She has to slowly gain trust in a sexual situation again, and losen her conditionings. That can take a long time! You are actually helping her A LOT by taking this subject to discussion - by that you are breaking her conditioned response to only have any self-worth through satisfying a man by giving him an orgasm. I see much more of the picture now, from what you've told, and this has been the area of my research work for 12 years, so trust me, I know what I'm talking about! I wrote my thesis on the importance of a partner for sexual abuse survivors.
Yes, I have read a little about your thesis here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1756
and you seem very knowledgable on the subject. Thank you for taking the time to advise me.
quote:
Originally posted by emc
It is a shaky period for her, I'm sure. All her stability is in keeping things as they were. When things start to change, she will have to start facing her worst parts of the psyche. It takes a great deal of patience and understanding from the partner, and you seem to have it! She is lucky!
Yes she fears change in any aspect, not just sexually. She does NOT like to look in the mirror persay.
quote:
Originally posted by emc
If I were you, I'd sort of start from the beginning with "sex". What is sex for you? Is it only a full penetration?
No not for me it isn't. But my wife and I are not very physically intimate except for during sexual times. This may be exasperating the problem? Like I hinted at before, I am not incredibly sexually attracted to my wife. I love her, but I didn't marry her fthe sex. I don't know if the lack of intamacy beyond sex is my doing or hers. Probably a bit of both.
quote:
Originally posted by emc
For me, sex is being intimate physically in all possible ways. What if you back a few steps and just start to do a lot of caressing? Just being naked with eachother and explore the whole bodies, as if it was the first time you were to touch it, with hands, mouth... whatever! That can be a difficult thing!!! It can bring up masses of bodily shame and discomfort, then that is what has to be attended to first. If you get into it though, it can bring tremendous relaxation (oxytocin being released, same hormone that releases during meditation), sensuality awakening, and building trust. Just carressing that way can bring a couple together in intimacy again. Arousal can come and go in such situation. It will be a first step for her to practice RECEIVING, which seems to be her problem.
I am going to try this, but I fear that this will be another unwelcome "change" for her. She doesn't like me giving her "attention" in bed. In fact the more I think about it the more I think she only has sex for my sake. (and when she does cocaine cause that makes her really horny) I will let you know how she reacts to this.
quote:
Originally posted by emc
Many victims of abuse have great problems being sensually touched.
Yes this is her. I am not allowed to touch her clitoris unless I am giving her oral sex. This is why it is very hard to get her to orgasm. SHE won't touch her clitoris during sex either. And because of this the only position she achieves orgasm in is missionary position.
quote:
Originally posted by emc
If she has a lot of bodily blockages that will be tough for her, and she might get memories of abuse etc. Then just let her control it fully and let her be able to stop it anytime. And most important: If she gets emotional in that situation - just hold her! Hold her in stillness and BE there for her! It's the greatest gift you can give! I've gotten reports from many male friends who have started to do this with their girlfriends, and they say "She just starts to cry and cry when I just hold her". That's the way it works. When the man is truly not sexually WANTING in a situation like that, but truly unselfish and attending her needs, which obviously is NOT you having an orgasm (=keeping the abuse patterns intact for psychological stability), but to release those nightmares in a safe environment, then miracles can take place!!! Healing of tremendous proportions can take place! A woman wants to be Loved and cleansed from the old abusive sexuality. You can help her with that!
Thank you so much emc for you incredibly helpful advice and for all these physical suggestions I can try. You are truly a huge help for me, thank you.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jan 11 2009 12:47:26 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 12:26:32 PM
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Hi Albert!
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
Does your wife masturbates ?
If yes, does she accept to do it in front of you ?
No I don't think she masturbates. If she does I do not know about it.
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
Which "kama sutra" or "position" your wife accepts to a reach an orgasm when you touch her ?
I am not allowed to touch her clitoris unless I am giving her oral sex. And I have to beg to be able to give her oral sex. She can only reach orgasm in missionary position when I am on top and push my pevis hard into her clitoris. I am not allowed to touch her clitoris with my hands in any position and she refuses to touch herself as well.
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
I also suggest you shift to tantric mirror technique of the all situation: you prefer to not orgasm to not dissolve a wound in you and she wants you to orgasm to avoid her sexual abuse memory. In other words, she reflects a blockage in you and you reflect a blockage in your wife. The approach would be for you to energy work in solo-tantra both aspects (internal & external).
Sorry, but are you suggesting here that we should both be practicing tantra alone? I doubt I will be able to get her to do anything remotely like this.
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 12:30:51 PM
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Hi YIL,
quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
The way I see it, your own purification and opening is bound to spread to the world around you, first affecting the ones closer to you, in turn finding blocks and bringing in a need to more openings. It seems to me you have a clear and sober view on things and you are reasoning well ("the force (inner silence) is strong in you Luke!" ). In my opinion it won't help if you compromise to her need for you to have an orgasm because, even if that brings immediate relief to her suffering of the idea she is not satisfying you, it is not, in the long term, solving anything. As you put it, there are issues she seems to have to deal with and I believe you can help her do that if she is willing to try.
Yes this is exactly how I see it as well. My allowing her to make me orgasm is a bandaid solution, nothing more.
quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLIfe
So, bottom line, go with your heart as it seems to me that you are thinking and seeing things with clarity. This is a journey that affects all of us, we are not alone. We who are travelling the path are not only responsible for our own opening but for the opening of all around us because ultimately we are all the same, it is not a 'me versus them' thing at all.
Thanks YIL for the encouragement. But I really don't know what to do in this situation. My heart says...."?". But I have been getting lots of useful advice so far that I will try to put into practice. Thanks again for the wonderful reply.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jan 11 2009 12:33:57 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 12:32:49 PM
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Hi Etherfish,
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
So Carson, keep in mind that your woman may be upset that we are talking about this subject.
Yes, if she knew this topic were on here and her sexual preferences were up for discussion I'm pretty sure I'd be on the couch for months! Good thing she doesn't give a sh#@ about yoga or AYP! Haha. Maybe not.
Love,
Carson
P.S. I will check out the website tomorrow at work. It won't work on this computer same as youtube won't. GOT to get a new computer, haha. |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jan 11 2009 12:46:03 PM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 1:04:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I am not allowed to touch her clitoris unless I am giving her oral sex. And I have to beg to be able to give her oral sex. She can only reach orgasm in missionary position when I am on top and push my pevis hard into her clitoris. I am not allowed to touch her clitoris with my hands in any position and she refuses to touch herself as well.
Hey Carson,
I suggest you get info about sexual puja info (i.e. Dinu Roman). It seems fom what you describe her root chakra or sexual chakra are more open than other chakras. Tell me how do you put her legs in the missionary position: on your shoulders (root chakra) or feet touching bed (sexual chakra) ?
About her not allowing you touch her clitoris, I had same problem with my wife but I resolved by her using a vibrator wand (she did it in front of me), later she accepted I have my penis in her vagina & she was using vibrator wand on her clit. Much later, I made slight-shamanic-BSDM ritual by having her drink alcohol so I could touch her clit then she orgasmed with intense kriyas detox. This took care of her accepting to self-touch her clit while my penis in her vagina so you can go after other chakra clearing for re-balance. I suggest to start with dog rear entry position for heart chakra. Then much later (it will take time but you love her), you might go after more shamanic-BDSM where she will be tied up, blind folded,... for deeper clearing.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Sorry, but are you suggesting here that we should both be practicing tantra alone? I doubt I will be able to get her to do anything remotely like this.
Nope, I meant only you  but it is internal practice (tantra) as opposed as external (shamanic). This method relies on you empath her issue in you so your shadow is reflected by her issue then you mix your conscious issue with her conscious issue. It is self-tantra either white (non-sexual) or red (sexual).
In Shakti, Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Jan 11 2009 1:27:02 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 1:08:11 PM
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What about hugging, Carzon? Can you introduce her to just standing and holding eachother in a hug, breathing together? Three hugs/day, a few minutes each time with synchronized breaths? That is very soothing and is a way to be physically intimate without even mentioning the label "sex". It's from such closeness relaxation can grow and sensuality awaken.
I'm glad you feel my posts helpful. I'm only drawing from my archives of knowledge, and all persons are different so I'm just giving general suggestions here. I hope it can get something rolling anyway... |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 5:01:12 PM
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Hi Albert,
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
I suggest you get info about sexual puja info (i.e. Dinu Roman).
I will look into this tomorrow at work. Have never heard of this type of puja so I am intrigued. Thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
It seems fom what you describe her root chakra or sexual chakra are more open than other chakras. Tell me how do you put her legs in the missionary position: on your shoulders (root chakra) or feet touching bed (sexual chakra) ?
When we have sex (in missionary or otherwise) my wife seems to always want to have her legs as open as possible. Often times with her knees bent and pulled up to the sides of her torso. Make sense? Why do you ask this? Is it significant?
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
About her not allowing you touch her clitoris, I had same problem with my wife but I resolved by her using a vibrator wand (she did it in front of me), later she accepted I have my penis in her vagina & she was using vibrator wand on her clit. Much later, I made slight-shamanic-BSDM ritual by having her drink alcohol so I could touch her clit then she orgasmed with intense kriyas detox. This took care of her accepting to self-touch her clit while my penis in her vagina so you can go after other chakra clearing for re-balance. I suggest to start with dog rear entry position for heart chakra. Then much later (it will take time but you love her), you might go after more shamanic-BDSM where she will be tied up, blind folded,... for deeper clearing.
My wife and I purchased a vibrator a long time ago, but she still only likes it used for penetration. I asked her today (it is very hard for us to talk about this so I can only get little bits of information at a time) why she doesn't like her clitoris stimulated. She says she doesn't like how it makes her feel and much prefers straight penetration even though she knows she won't have an orgasm. I also asked her if she thinks that we may have some "Subconscious" issues in our sex life and she said yes. I then asked her if she thinks these issues might have something to do with her potentially being abused as a child. She says she thinks about this lots, but doesn't know for sure. I didn't press any further and this is where the conversation ended. I need to take this slow I can tell. She needs time to figure this out for herself I think. I will be here to help when she needs it, and I will prod kindly on occassion as well. I suggested that we take a month to live in celebecy and she said she might be ok with that.
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
Nope, I meant only you but it is internal practice (tantra) as opposed as external (shamanic). This method relies on you empath her issue in you so your shadow is reflected by her issue then you mix your conscious issue with her conscious issue. It is self-tantra either white (non-sexual) or red (sexual).
I am not very adept at tantra Albert, so would you mind explaining the above stated method in a little greater detail for me please? Thank you!
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 5:04:57 PM
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Hi emc and thanks again for all your thoughtful advice.
quote:
Originally posted by emc
What about hugging, Carzon? Can you introduce her to just standing and holding eachother in a hug, breathing together? Three hugs/day, a few minutes each time with synchronized breaths? That is very soothing and is a way to be physically intimate without even mentioning the label "sex". It's from such closeness relaxation can grow and sensuality awaken.
I really like this idea and if we do decide to be celibate for a while I will use this for sure. Even if we don't I am going to try and make a conserted effort to do this. A very loving suggestion thank you.
Love,
Carson |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 7:05:10 PM
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2 sense, Carson, 1) Spiritual liberation is possible even if you ejaculate. There were many married mahasiddhas. Remember, it's not the sex that the problem it's the attachment. 2) Bliss consciousness, the afterglow, is just a feeling, it's temporary, unreal, and it is causing you to acquire a new attachment.
Pre-orgasmic tantra is not required. Don't hanker after it or resent anyone who prevents you from experiencing it. This is illusion; this is samsara. You are judging your wife's past and judging yourself along with it. These are wrong attitudes, wrong views. Everything is existence is an opportunity to observe the truth.
Trust your heart if there is an underlying divide between you and your wife. That is a matter of general relationship problems.
However, don't allow sexual tantra and your desire to become a barrier between you and others. If you can't, consider carefully what life as a monk or a sadhu would be like, alone in your bliss consciousness. You might enjoy it. But it's not required.
Sexual bliss consciousness can become a barrier and not a doorway to great bliss of awakening, because it is impermanent, illusory. It can be a doorway if you and your partner are prepared to use it in a meditation path to explore non-conceptual states. Very few masters used sex as a regular path to perfect vision.
Use this relationship issue as a window into ultimate reality. Try to see how your attachment to a sexual experience is like a drug, temporary, fleeting. Try to see how your longing for it frustrates you and your wife. Inspect the longing in detail. What good is it? It may prove more helpful for your liberation to reject this attitude about bliss consciousness as you now see it. There is greater bliss in frictionless natural peace.
The insight into yourself may help you gain compassion for her. You should then explore skillful means to entice her into practices. Help her see that her longing for your ejaculation is the source of her worries about her sexual value. Perhaps she can then relate longing with fear and worry as one continuum.
I went through this with my fiance. Now we are doing tai chi together; we also discuss illusory nature of worry a lot; she also has many worries and this is helping her calm down.
The sexual incongruity is the quickest path to dissolution. If you want a divorce, keep up the pre-orgasmic tantra. If your partner is not into it, leave the partner or leave the practice. You can always go back to it later.
I hope this helps,
Love,
TMS |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Jan 11 2009 7:12:28 PM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 8:53:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
When we have sex (in missionary or otherwise) my wife seems to always want to have her legs as open as possible. Often times with her knees bent and pulled up to the sides of her torso. Make sense? Why do you ask this? Is it significant?
Hi Carson,
Per Dinu Roman sexual puja cosmology, this confirms her root chakra (muladhara) is more open than any other major chakra but also root chakra wants to open more which might lead to a kundalini rise. As you can imagine, this specific situation is a friend and foe so really, try to explore other pujas or sexual positions where she could orgasm so this wil slightly open other chakras balancing her energy vessel. Since she accepts some oral sex on her clitoris, just do it with your wife using other sexual puja.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I am not very adept at tantra Albert, so would you mind explaining the above stated method in a little greater detail for me please? Thank you!
Well, if you're naturally not open on tantra, better not go this road which requires lots of shakti so this could be dangerous for you right now.
This also means to forget everything I told you about sacred BDSM cleaning rituals.
Amicalement, Albert
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Edited by - selfonlypath on Jan 12 2009 02:03:47 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2009 : 12:40:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by themysticseeker
2 sense, Carson, 1) Spiritual liberation is possible even if you ejaculate. There were many married mahasiddhas. Remember, it's not the sex that the problem it's the attachment. 2) Bliss consciousness, the afterglow, is just a feeling, it's temporary, unreal, and it is causing you to acquire a new attachment.
Pre-orgasmic tantra is not required. Don't hanker after it or resent anyone who prevents you from experiencing it. This is illusion; this is samsara. You are judging your wife's past and judging yourself along with it. These are wrong attitudes, wrong views. Everything is existence is an opportunity to observe the truth.
Trust your heart if there is an underlying divide between you and your wife. That is a matter of general relationship problems.
However, don't allow sexual tantra and your desire to become a barrier between you and others. If you can't, consider carefully what life as a monk or a sadhu would be like, alone in your bliss consciousness. You might enjoy it. But it's not required.
Sexual bliss consciousness can become a barrier and not a doorway to great bliss of awakening, because it is impermanent, illusory. It can be a doorway if you and your partner are prepared to use it in a meditation path to explore non-conceptual states. Very few masters used sex as a regular path to perfect vision.
Use this relationship issue as a window into ultimate reality. Try to see how your attachment to a sexual experience is like a drug, temporary, fleeting. Try to see how your longing for it frustrates you and your wife. Inspect the longing in detail. What good is it? It may prove more helpful for your liberation to reject this attitude about bliss consciousness as you now see it. There is greater bliss in frictionless natural peace.
The insight into yourself may help you gain compassion for her. You should then explore skillful means to entice her into practices. Help her see that her longing for your ejaculation is the source of her worries about her sexual value. Perhaps she can then relate longing with fear and worry as one continuum.
I went through this with my fiance. Now we are doing tai chi together; we also discuss illusory nature of worry a lot; she also has many worries and this is helping her calm down.
The sexual incongruity is the quickest path to dissolution. If you want a divorce, keep up the pre-orgasmic tantra. If your partner is not into it, leave the partner or leave the practice. You can always go back to it later.
I hope this helps,
Love,
TMS
Hi TMS,
Not trying to be rude here, but have you read anything of what I have written here in this thread? You have a lot of misconceptions about my situiation. Please don't take offence.
Love,
Carson |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2009 : 09:17:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi TMS,
Not trying to be rude here, but have you read anything of what I have written here in this thread? You have a lot of misconceptions about my situiation. Please don't take offence.
Love,
Carson
I read every post on here. What do I not understand? You are more concerned about your self and "your" liberation. And you think that remaining pre-orgasmic is necessary for it. I'm telling you that you are wrong. My humble opinion is that this condition is an attachment for you, and as such it is a hindrance to what you seek. Sorry if I'm missing a key point.
TMS |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2009 : 10:31:19 AM
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Hi TMS,
What you are assuming incorrectly is that I think that remaining pre-orgasmic is necessary for moksha. I don't think this at all, nor have I said that. All I have said is that the energy drain I have from orgasm or even blocked orgasm is too much for me to handle at this stage of my journey and I will not have orgasms just to please my wife for the short term. That's all. Hope this explains a little bit more for you.
Love,
Carson
P.S. We have sex maybe twice a month at most now so obviously I am not obsessed with sex, tantra, or orgasm. |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jan 12 2009 10:58:02 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2009 : 10:36:47 AM
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HI Albert,
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
Per Dinu Roman sexual puja cosmology, this confirms her root chakra (muladhara) is more open than any other major chakra but also root chakra wants to open more which might lead to a kundalini rise. As you can imagine, this specific situation is a friend and foe so really, try to explore other pujas or sexual positions where she could orgasm so this wil slightly open other chakras balancing her energy vessel. Since she accepts some oral sex on her clitoris, just do it with your wife using other sexual puja.
Any suggestions on specific pujas or positions that may help with this? I really know nothing of sexual pujas so......
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
Well, if you're naturally not open on tantra, better not go this road which requires lots of shakti so this could be dangerous for you right now.
It's not that I'm not open to tantra, it's more that my wife is not open to it, so I don't make a lot of time to learn about it and hence I may be a little "slow" on the tantra front. I'm trying to catch up though!!
Love,
Carson |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2009 : 12:39:25 PM
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Carson--
We all empathize with your dilemma, and many of us have gone through similar periods in our own journey, but there is a point here that I think you are missing, which is: What does marriage really mean, what does it require, what promises and commitments do your vows hold you to? What some of us are trying to say is simple and direct--your vows to your wife mean more than you are allowing for. Sacrifice is necessary, even sacrifice to your own spiritual progress (or what you see as such) because of the path you have chosen--our householder's path binds us to our partner in such a way that, yes, we DO sometimes need to step off our path. In fact, one's "couplehood" actually demands that we do, because when we make those vows, we cease to have any claim at all on "my path", it becomes "our path", and it is (or at least correctly SHOULD be) our joined karma, not yours alone any longer. You have yet to realize this and give yourself over fully to "us", letting "me" go. Ultimately, this WILL become your path--not YOU alone, but you two, together as a couple. That is, unless you are karmically wrong for one another in a lifetime union, in which case you've made a big mistake and need to rethink your marriage. Otherwise, you are joined lock, stock and karma, your desires, paths and lives linked as one. There is no YOU without HER, and therefore no need or want of yours which takes precedent over hers. This I speak from deep experience--you know the story of my marriage, I need not repeat it--and so you seem to have some basic reevaluation of yourself and your life to do before continuing on. Good luck my friend.
Michael
PS--having sex only twice a month (especially at your age--we do it twice a day, and I'm double your age...!!) is a set-up for marital discord and disharmony. There are deep unbalances in your marriage. Have you considered marital counseling? |
Edited by - mikkiji on Jan 12 2009 12:46:25 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2009 : 1:18:08 PM
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Hi Micheal and thank you for your kind post. Please don't feel offended if I don't agree with you 100% as my experience and opinions differ from yours in many ways. That doesn't make either of us "wrong" in my perspective. Hope you understand this.....
quote:
Originally posted by mikkiji
We all empathize with your dilemma, and many of us have gone through similar periods in our own journey, but there is a point here that I think you are missing, which is: What does marriage really mean, what does it require, what promises and commitments do your vows hold you to?
Up until semi-recently I would have agreed with what you are trying to get me to say. But I am at a different stage now, and do not feel intrinsically linked because of taking marriage vows. I think marriage to me and marriage to you mean different things and the vows were taken in different capacities perhaps. To me marriage is simply two people choosing monogamy over promiscuity. Marriage to me doesn't mean that we lose our identity as individuals nor that we become "one" journey. My wife is not spiritual in ANY way. We are not compatible spiritually. She was brought up Mormon, and I Christian, and I have stuck with the spiritual path, (just not Christian persay) and she has abandoned all searching for answers to esoteric questions. She has no desire to know "who she is", or for moksha, or to even be involved in anything spiritual. The reason we got married is VERY complicated and I don't feel like explaining it here because I know I will be judged harshly by many for it. Suffice it to say I did not marry for "love". That in itself may sound harsh, but I have my reasons and I DO love my wife, it is just a very complicated situation that took many many years to develop into what it is. My wedding vows to me mean that I will be there for my wife as support and loving companionship at any time for any reason. I am not here to make my wife "happy". That is not possible. Nor should it be asked of me. My wife is the ONLY person who can make herself happy and happiness is a state of mind and I cannot impose a state of mind on anyone. Sacrifice can be asked for in some ways, but for my wife to ask me to put aside my spiritual journey in order to make her "happy" in the short term is both unreasonable and never going to happen. This was NOT part of my wedding vows.
quote:
Originally posted by mikkiji
What some of us are trying to say is simple and direct--your vows to your wife mean more than you are allowing for. Sacrifice is necessary, even sacrifice to your own spiritual progress (or what you see as such) because of the path you have chosen--our householder's path binds us to our partner in such a way that, yes, we DO sometimes need to step off our path. In fact, one's "couplehood" actually demands that we do, because when we make those vows, we cease to have any claim at all on "my path", it becomes "our path", and it is (or at least correctly SHOULD be) our joined karma, not yours alone any longer.
I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree with you more. Me taking wedding vows with my wife had NOTHING to do with us being joined in a spiritual journey together. Yes this may happen, but our journeys are very much seperate. I realize this is not the way it is for everyone, but it is for us. We did not marry because we share similar spiritual views. In fact we married DESPITE having almost opposite spiritual views. This did not bother me and does not bother me because I do not need my wife to be on the same path as me in order for me to progress. And likewise for her. And we planned our marriage long before I ever came to yoga in any respect, so I did not know where my journey was even headed at the time. We got married right at the time I was starting AYP. And I also disagree that at least our past karma is linked. Maybe our karma since being together has become linked but what I did in the past, and what she did in the past has no current reflection on our present state of karmic resolution. And how can I burn karma for her, and vice versa if only one of us is practicing any spiritual sadhana? And we do have "our" path as you say, but that has nothing to do with spirituality. Our spirituality is very much seperate and there is still "my path" and "her path" (or lack of a path).
quote:
Originally posted by mikkiji
You have yet to realize this and give yourself over fully to "us", letting "me" go. Ultimately, this WILL become your path--not YOU alone, but you two, together as a couple.
I hope so, but I have nothing vested in this. She is the maker of her own destiny, and I will allow that. I am not going to try and steer her one way or the other. She knows what I am into, she knows what I value and where I am headed. She can choose to join me or not. But it is her choice, and the fact that we are married will not change anything in this respect. I hope you can understand this.
quote:
Originally posted by mikkiji
That is, unless you are karmically wrong for one another in a lifetime union, in which case you've made a big mistake and need to rethink your marriage.
We may be "karmically" wrong for each other, and I half suspect this, BUT, that does not mean that marrying her was either a mistake nor do I need to rethink my marriage. If it is not meant to be, it will end one way or another. I will not push it. For now, we will live side by side, in loving companionship, just not sharing our spiritual journeys. I can't push my views on her nor vice versa. I would not want it any other way.
quote:
Originally posted by mikkiji
Otherwise, you are joined lock, stock and karma, your desires, paths and lives linked as one. There is no YOU without HER, and therefore no need or want of yours which takes precedent over hers. This I speak from deep experience--you know the story of my marriage, I need not repeat it--and so you seem to have some basic reevaluation of yourself and your life to do before continuing on. Good luck my friend.
I know that this is your personal experience, but do you really think that your personal experience is going to reflect the way it has to be for everyone else? I truly doubt it. Please don't take offence.
quote:
Originally posted by mikkiji
PS--having sex only twice a month (especially at your age--we do it twice a day, and I'm double your age...!!) is a set-up for marital discord and disharmony. There are deep unbalances in your marriage. Have you considered marital counseling?
The reason we are not having regular sex is because of the reasons I started this thread. It was not always like this. She would have sex with me every day a hundred times a day if I wanted it. She will do whatever I ask of her. And this is not healthy. Hence why I want to help her solve some of the internal sexual issues before I make a big deal out of the lack of sex we are having. Make sense? And I don't think we need marital counselling, I think she needs regressed memory therapy and THEN maybe marital counselling.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jan 12 2009 1:24:26 PM |
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Non-Tantric partner Issue
