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powerhawk
USA
8 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 21 2008 : 7:43:59 PM
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Sleep paralysis can be induced by remaining conscious keeping the body completely still, just as is done in meditation.
Could some of the effects people experience while meditating actually be a result of the body moving into sleep paralysis?
When meditating, I lose sensation in my body, similar to the paralyzed feeling of SP. However, in SP, I get a lot of fear that doesn't come up during meditation.
My broader question is this:
How do we know that the experience of meditation is us reaching higher states of consciousness and getting closer to the true self, and not a chemical change in the brain as a result of focus, relaxation, and increased alpha waves? |
Edited by - powerhawk on Dec 21 2008 8:10:21 PM |
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Jo-self
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2008 : 10:13:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by powerhawk
My broader question is this:
How do we know that the experience of meditation is us reaching higher states of consciousness and getting closer to the true self, and not a chemical change in the brain as a result of focus, relaxation, and increased alpha waves?
Why not both? How can any experience not be due to a chemical/electrical change? The brain is an electrico-chemical system. Also, any long lasting change, which we call a state of consciousness or stage of enlightenment, implies a corresponding physical change. We see some evidence of this (not an identity) with how some drugs in very small quantities can induce spiritual experiences in some people.
Sleep Paralysis can be a horror, I would not want to induce them. I bet that's where the alien abduction stories come from. In the past it was ghosts, today its ET.
-- jo-self
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2008 : 02:27:25 AM
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that's true and i agree with you joe meditative states are a combination of both the physical and the biological just read about stuff like soma and nectar which are all a result of advanced yoga practices.
now i don't know why does sleep paralysis happen, but a few years back it used to happen a lot with me then it changed into smthg different into glimpses of "astral projection" i would be awake during sleep paralysis and then the weirdest but very fun scenary would happen. "i flew over some nice places ;)"
and now these last two years it's gone and has been replaced with something else i've noticed to have been very vibrational it is body paralysis but one hell of a vibrational one that ends with a black out.
and it's actualy funny that i saw this post cz something beautiful during sleep happened with me yesterday.
it was kind of the same awakening as in sleep paralysis but without the uncomfortable side effects and then i just melted into a white light situated in front of my third eye i think and after that i became infinite as simple as that, it was smthg very beautiful.
i don't know if this is what a person experiences during deep sleep or just some other scenary in a dream but who cares it was good.
so i agree with you on the conciousness part and believe that we get into higher states of conciousness over time. "realizing more"
these are my notes on the subject and how i see them to have changed with me over the time. (maybe they are related and maybe they're not)
light and love,
Ananda |
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solo
USA
167 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2008 : 10:46:51 AM
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It has not happened to me in a long time, but I too have had a few cases of sleep paralysis. All of them, prior to me knowing anything about spirituality as I undertand it today (and I am really a newbie to all of this in the last year).
But part of me thinks that sleep paralysis could be related to out of body experiences and or astral projection (based solely on what I have read, not speaking from experience). I meditate daily and have read about but not yet tried to induce an altered state that could lead to astral projection. I kind of believe that certain people are simply genetically prone to having obe's and astral projection.
Anyway, that's just my theory. Take from it what you will 
Peace. |
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RO0o
Argentina
40 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2008 : 11:24:52 AM
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| I used to get sleep paralysis very often, not so often now. Usually I could feel it coming, sounds like Humming, roaring or the sound that cars do when pass by very fast, all this sounds felt like coming from the back of my head. At first this experiences were scary, but when I realize that instead of fighting to move I could get out of my body...things got worst LOL. Those kind of OBEs were happening, I don't know how to put it, like in low vibrations comparing to the nice ones, It was dense? difficult to move around. I did not know anything about meditation, astral projection , etc. And if I was not scared, something or somebody was about to take care of that matter. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2008 : 12:55:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RO0o
I used to get sleep paralysis very often, not so often now. Usually I could feel it coming, sounds like Humming, roaring or the sound that cars do when pass by very fast, all this sounds felt like coming from the back of my head. At first this experiences were scary, but when I realize that instead of fighting to move I could get out of my body...things got worst LOL. Those kind of OBEs were happening, I don't know how to put it, like in low vibrations comparing to the nice ones, It was dense? difficult to move around. I did not know anything about meditation, astral projection , etc. And if I was not scared, something or somebody was about to take care of that matter.
namaste my friend,
that something or somebody whom you're pointing at will disolve in time after we reach higher vibrational states.
but in case you're still having this kind of problem, out of my personal experience i'd say it's best to pray and ask for protection from god and his angels.
plus imagine a white light descending on you and filling you from the inside out till it covers all of your aura. "practice this alone in case you're an atheist"
these entities do not dare come near the light "now way no how", i guess it might be something to do with vibrations...
this is the best advice i can give for now and god willing these entities will be dissolved in the lightness again sooner or later all of creation is headed that way.
by the way, if you take on that advice you'll have some wonderful experiences concerning your astral projection.
and even though i was told from a very knowledgeable friend who might be reading this; that i should work on myself more before i help people the way i'm doing cz these entities do tend to attack those who help or advice others on such matters.
and i'm thankful for the advice but i'm a tool in the hands of god nothing more and help or a good word should always be given to others whatever the cost may be.
plus i've been praying a lot more these days ;) which means a lot more of purification=higher state of vibration, protection and "LOVE".
praise the lord in all, may we all be blessed and protected by his light.
light and love,
Ananda |
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RO0o
Argentina
40 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2008 : 1:34:05 PM
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Hi Ananda,
Thank you very much for your advise and help.
It's been a while without those experiences. I don't mind them very much now, if I am experiencing sleep paralysis, I don't try to have an OBE from there, I just let it be and I either start moving or fall asleep completely.
I have a question,if I sit/lay down with the purpose of having an OBE (tried few times) it starts with a deep breath in, very deep, and fresh?? just one, also a very acute sound (like which would correspond to a space ship traveling at light speed in sci-fi movies) which ends in the separation from the body. At that point I have a body, but it is transparent, I can see through it, also you can float around etc etc...Feels really nice. Are these experiences happening at higher vibrations?? |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2008 : 6:05:41 PM
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obe experiences are not the same for everyone, and yes these experiences might be glimpses to induce our bhakti in some way or another.
this lesson explains it all:
http://www.aypsite.org/264.html
Ananda |
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prodibnil
Belgium
10 Posts |
Posted - Dec 24 2008 : 9:19:12 PM
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Monks who meditate over a period of lets say 10 years , develop a part in the brain which makes them believe that there is some higher consciousness or that they're closer to "God".
Its like your studying math, you train your brain constantly in an area that is related to math, so this area will develop faster then other parts.
There is no such thing as a "higher state of consciousness" just very different forms of it.
I dont see meditation as something special. Its just practissing your brain in a certain way which make you feel more relaxed and more present.
If you go further in training meditation , there are bound to happen some crazy things like OBE's or flashy lights because you're entering a relaxing and dreamlike state of mind.
To see meditation as nothing special is liberating because you wont expect anything from it. You just do it, nothing more( like washing or brushing your theeth)
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Edited by - prodibnil on Dec 24 2008 9:27:28 PM |
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powerhawk
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2008 : 11:18:43 AM
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Interesting.
Related question I have been pondering:
Is the reality that is found through AYP and other spiritual practices the way the world really is, or is it just a projection of the brain? |
Edited by - powerhawk on Dec 26 2008 11:21:44 AM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2008 : 12:33:39 PM
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I don't particularly think it is entirely due to the brain. It is tempting to be either/or in these matters instead of AND. For example, there are people who are born with spiritual experiences, which suggests reincarnation. Other people have to evolve to get the same experiences.
Saying that there is no "God" is pretty silly in my opinion. There are obviously spiritual experiences that people have which point to an intelligence within and beyond the universe. To say it is just a product of the brain misses the point that it could be both the brain AND real spiritual existence. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2008 : 12:35:31 PM
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Another note here.
To say that meditation "exercises" the brain so that certain parts of the brain are developed, also misses the point that people can take drugs and have spiritual experiences. |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2008 : 11:25:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by powerhawk
Interesting.
Related question I have been pondering:
Is the reality that is found through AYP and other spiritual practices the way the world really is, or is it just a projection of the brain?
Hi powerhawk,
nice question indeed. And I feel pretty clear about the answer too.
Yes, reality as we are discovering it through spiritual practices, is really how the world is.
metta,
Roman |
Edited by - mimirom on Dec 27 2008 11:57:54 AM |
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prodibnil
Belgium
10 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2008 : 3:32:15 PM
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yeah , there are drug induced spiritual experiences and meditative induced spiritual experiences. Both have to do with the chemistry of your brain and the reaction on that sort of drug or training ,nothing else.
people who are born with spiritual experiences reinforces my argument. it does not suggest reincarnation. It suggests additional "brain chemistry" in that particular region of the brain that induce these experiences.
God is just a feeling that you have in a state of trance
it's all produced by your brain.
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2008 : 5:43:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prodibnil
God is just a feeling that you have in a state of trance
it's all produced by your brain.
Hi Tom,
God is produced by the brain? Isn't it the other way around?
Roman |
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powerhawk
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2008 : 5:50:27 PM
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I think it very well may be an experience of the brain.
Here is something else I have been considering:
What most of us think is the world, what we have collected through our senses, is simply our brain's interpretation of an objective reality. Aliens would not see the same world as us. Colors would be different, smells, tastes, feelings, would be different.
Whenever I think like this, I always remember to ask myself this question: Why is anything? Trying to answer this question demonstrates the limited nature of the human brain; it makes no sense to us that something has no boundaries, yet time and space are infinite. Our typical "logic" fails. Since it fails once, there is the possibility that our "logic" is tricking us in many domains. |
Edited by - powerhawk on Dec 27 2008 5:57:46 PM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2008 : 11:27:20 AM
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prodibnil,
What do you make of people's personal experiences with hearing inner sounds and seeing the spiritual eye? |
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prodibnil
Belgium
10 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2008 : 3:22:35 PM
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powerhawk is completely right about the subject.
what we pereceive as reality is just our interpretation of an objective world.
i hear inner sounds after yoga or meditation. again , this proofs my point.
isnt it curious that there are a lot of people who have had spiritual experiences?the solution to this is fairly simple!different human,same sort of brain. For example - when i meditate i can't help myself but to yawn every 30 seconds. Its something in my brain that relaxes and thus,my body yawns.
The same go's for the third eye or the hearing of spiritual sounds.It's bound to happen when you meditate over longer periods of time because you develop an area of your brain which induces this experience.This doesnt mean that the experience isnt special. If it's important to you then its special.
it's hard to accept that your just a living robot ,that we call a human being, with some wiresand buttons attached to each other,so that when you press a button on that robot it acts in a certain way.
This doesnt mean that i see humans as robots. I see humans as humans and have a lot of respect for all of humanity and life itself.
i have a question to : if you meditate and achieve a stillnes of mind, where thoughts and illusions fade away, can this then be an objective point of view?
mimimorom - that question can't be answered
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Edited by - prodibnil on Dec 28 2008 7:24:24 PM |
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powerhawk
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2008 : 11:05:21 PM
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Hmm... the subconscious mind is always working, and thus never quiet, while it is interpreting the objective world. It must process all the signals from the senses.
But is the converse true? If the mind is completely quiet, is it still interpreting the objective world?
If the answer is no, then it would be true that meditation is actual movement towards the real nature of things, seen from pure consciousness.
If the answer is yes, and the brain never caves, then the answer is ambiguous. It could be operating and giving us a distorted truth, or it could be operating and giving us the real truth.
Throwing sleep into the picture really confuses me. The brain is not interpreting an objective reality, but instead projecting a subjective reality. It is not quiet at all though, so this doesn't help answer the previous question.
Another question to answer: If the mind is completely quiet while you are conscious, does the memory still function? During no-dream sleep, assuming you are still conscious, the answer is no. But during samadhi, the memory is still there, right?
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Edited by - powerhawk on Dec 29 2008 09:34:58 AM |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2008 : 12:11:48 AM
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sleep paralysis can be induced by strong meditation, I've been many times in this state while in jhanas. I also lose all my body sensations, it feels like an OOBE but is not, is very different, one is very aware that one is out of the body, and at the same time inside (connected with the body).
The true self is you not your body and its chemical fluids, you'll notice the difference when outside the body, although is very similar to an OOBE is not the same, I have experienced both, and know what I'm talking about.
You have to feel yourself outside the body, it can be chemical reactions on the body while you are outside, but that doesn't mean that the body is making this up, maybe is the opposite, the true self is affecting the body chemical fluids, why not ?
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by powerhawk
Sleep paralysis can be induced by remaining conscious keeping the body completely still, just as is done in meditation.
Could some of the effects people experience while meditating actually be a result of the body moving into sleep paralysis?
When meditating, I lose sensation in my body, similar to the paralyzed feeling of SP. However, in SP, I get a lot of fear that doesn't come up during meditation.
My broader question is this:
How do we know that the experience of meditation is us reaching higher states of consciousness and getting closer to the true self, and not a chemical change in the brain as a result of focus, relaxation, and increased alpha waves?
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2008 : 11:14:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by powerhawk
Hmm... the subconscious mind is always working, and thus never quiet, while it is interpreting the objective world. It must process all the signals from the senses.
But is the converse true? If the mind is completely quiet, is it still interpreting the objective world?
If the answer is no, then it would be true that meditation is actual movement towards the real nature of things, seen from pure consciousness.
Hi powerhawk,
here you are making an interesting point, I think. Through mindfulness meditation you can achieve a state, where you are observing all mental and physical phenomena as they occur in your world, and at the same time you have either no thinking (=interpreting) going on, or you are not unconsciously identified with it and thus you can observe thoughts simply as another object, along with all the others. This state is a type of samadhi. In that state the interpretive process stops, and your world begins to change in front of your eyes (lots of fun...  ). Then you can see the difference between world+interpretation, and world-interpretation. In Buddhist terms this is called "to see things as they really are."
Meditation is a very good way to get experiential insight into this.
take care,
Roman
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powerhawk
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Apr 27 2009 : 4:58:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by neli
The true self is you not your body and its chemical fluids, you'll notice the difference when outside the body, although is very similar to an OOBE is not the same, I have experienced both, and know what I'm talking about.
You have to feel yourself outside the body, it can be chemical reactions on the body while you are outside, but that doesn't mean that the body is making this up, maybe is the opposite, the true self is affecting the body chemical fluids, why not ?
Neli
Saying that since you feel outside of your body while meditating means you are something other than your body assumes that the brain cannot distort your consciousness such that it feels like you are outside of your body. (Very confusing sentence but I don't know how else to put it) This is not true because it happens every time you dream. I think a lot of spirituality assumes that consciousness is something that is unrelated to the body and is above the level of the brain. Whether or not that is true or not cannot be proven by your own empirical evidence, because that, once again, could be an experience created by the brain.
I currently think none of this really matters at all, if continued meditation leads to more positive emotions. I think gurus creating philosophies from their subjective experience and calling them "truth" can be misleading though.
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Edited by - powerhawk on Apr 27 2009 5:08:15 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 27 2009 : 5:15:50 PM
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Hi powerhawk....
I can personally verify that OBE are not all in the brain. I lost several friends during a period of my life because I got obsessed with remote veiwing (spying) on my friends while tripping on Ketamine. I would leave the body, and go and spy on my friends and later tell them what I had witnessed them doing. I would specifically look for things that I could not possibly know and this freaked many people out because they could never know exactly what else I may have seen. It must have felt like there was a second external conscience watching them at all times or something. I feel bad now for doing this. Many of these former friends said outright to me that they never wanted to talk to me, hear from me, see me, or know of me ever again. Some of these were close friends. I know that it is impossible to actually PROVE anything via the internet/forum, but I can assure you that it is most definitely possible to leave the body with the awareness and "see" things that you could not possibly see with the physical eyes. It is not all in the brain.
Love,
Carson |
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Jo-self
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - Apr 27 2009 : 5:57:06 PM
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Powerhawk:
Yea, I agree to some extent, doesn't really matter and so forth.
However, skepticsm can be good, you may keep your wallet longer.
Yogani has a nice lesson "Healthy Skepticism": http://www.aypsite.org/182.html
-- jo-self |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
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schtroumpsolis
Canada
24 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2010 : 8:28:24 PM
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| as far as i know fear in sp come from your subconcious wich you access during sleep quite often when someone get close to cellular level of mental.. in meditation the impression of paralisis come from your level of focus on your conciousness wich discard body sensation. for the broad question; i think expériences come from your soul, your spirit, the divine in you, chimical changes ocurs in the body because of your spirit actions in your body not the other way around. the proof to that ; disconect your spirit from the body and the body rot. |
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Deep Meditative State/Sleep Paralysis
