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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 06 2008 : 11:39:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
Roman
It is clear that both the Yogic and Buddhist traditions produce liberated people as a result of their practices.
So why pitch one against the other as in: one is right and one is wrong?
If you put your inquirying energy into finding why both of them work, even though they are slightly different, would this not be more fruitful and give a clearer understanding of the beauty that is in both systems.
Hi Sparkle,
thanks for saying it loudly and clearly. Yes, I agree 100% with you! It's all about the beauty.
I don't strive for proving one of the approaches wrong. No, that wouldn't make much sense. It's rather about testing, exposing to critique, and also about exposing my own misunderstandings to you guys... I'm absolutely aware that my knowledge and understanding of yoga and AYP (and Buddhism as well, after all) is rather very basic and I expect that much of my present criticism will dissolve as I'll be getting more familiar with these systems (if I will). I haven't even read the DEEP MEDITATION and SAMYAMA books yet...
Well the truth is that I am fascinated by both Buddhism and Yoga, and AYP is a huge inspiration for me.
What I actually am striving for is to find a broad enough perspective to be able to embrace both Yoga and Buddhism in a single integrated whole.
mettá,
Roman |
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tadeas
Czech Republic
314 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2008 : 1:16:34 PM
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quote:
What I actually am striving for is to find a broad enough perspective to be able to embrace both Yoga and Buddhism in a single integrated whole.
With time and practices, everything falls in place, into one integrated wholeness, which is what you are :) By the way of practices and purification your perpective changes. It's not an intellectual thing, this change of perspective. Neither is it an intepretative framework in your mind. It's much deeper than that.
You could certainly create some kind of conceptual metasystem to include all the various practices and existing systems, but that's a spiritual scientist's job I guess. The development of one person is not that complicated, because it's not necessary to have an overarching conceptualization or map of the whole territory to progress on the journey.
If you direct the energy you put into this striving to practices, you'll be home in no time  |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2008 : 5:45:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tadeas
quote:
What I actually am striving for is to find a broad enough perspective to be able to embrace both Yoga and Buddhism in a single integrated whole.
With time and practices, everything falls in place, into one integrated wholeness, which is what you are :) By the way of practices and purification your perpective changes. It's not an intellectual thing, this change of perspective. Neither is it an intepretative framework in your mind. It's much deeper than that.
You could certainly create some kind of conceptual metasystem to include all the various practices and existing systems, but that's a spiritual scientist's job I guess. The development of one person is not that complicated, because it's not necessary to have an overarching conceptualization or map of the whole territory to progress on the journey.
If you direct the energy you put into this striving to practices, you'll be home in no time
Hi Tad,
come on, I'm practicing all the time !   
There actually already exists exactly such a metasystem, integrating many of the worlds leading spiritual systems. And not only that, it integrates ancient shamanic systems, main spiritual systems, different models of human consciousness created by modern western psychology, as well as various ancient and modern systems of transformational practices, economics, politics, and more. I'm speaking about Ken Wilber's "Integral Model" or "AQAL" model, as he calls it. Definitely worth examining! I would strongly recommend it as an outstanding aid for anyone seeking a quality key to the vast complexity of the current informational age. This system includes a subsystem of life-practices, or transformative practices, as well - also worth exploring. An exceptionally versatile and logically structured system of great practical use.
In ILP, (Integral Life Practice - as they call their system of daily practices, which you can compile practically from any known transformational practices, using them as components of the ILP metasystem) practicing of the cognitive faculty, logical discourse, is considered a regular practice too, alongside with meditation, physical training or even artistic expression, and much more.
This might deserve another thread...
Mettá,
Roman
P.s.: Sorry for the subsystem-metasystem system of the system of the metasystem. |
Edited by - mimirom on Dec 11 2008 09:56:06 AM |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2008 : 5:48:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
Probably not.
I recently noticed a subtle but importnat shift in my meditation (I practice AYP). I realised meditation should not be about striving for anything, after all is all about being, isn't it? Just being. It's the "just" that is difficult, as we all know.
But now I go to meditation not expecting to "go" into meditation. I just allow myself to be, I don't sit and go "ok, now meditate" or "ok, now let's do this exercise well" or anything that would imply effort. I simply sit, however I happen to feel at the moment (no effort done to be "prepared" for meditation), and observe. Basically, for me, meditation is being watchful, aware, but in a simple effortless way. So, I watch my thoughts go by and introduce "I AM" there. I watch how my mind drifts, how it moves from thought to though, and then take it back to I AM, which I also observe. I think this might be the witness behind the thoughts, it is like you are just being watchful for whatever arises and for the way your mind bahaves. The mantra helps to make the mind still, as it is neutral, and gives soemthing for the mind to cling to (it's funny how we refer to the mind as if we were talking about a dog sometimes hahaha). Well, it seems to work. What I was doing "wrong" before was to try to be in a certain way in meditation, and to cling forcefully to the mantra. If I was doing this though, meditation still worked and I saw its effects and maybe I would not be able to remain watchful as I am now (witness cultivated) if it was not for those many months just trying to cling to the mantra. Now, I notice, just a simple introduction of I AM shifts the energy in the mind, and I don't really have to cling to it so forcefully.
I still think your contribution is very valuable Roman. I guess mindfullness is the most important practice, being watchful, present, aware. But the how to cultivate it is the trick, and it seems AYP has a simple effective mean, without the need for much effort or any complicated thought processes to make it happen (it is hard to just "be still and do nothing", isn't it?). The mantra helps, at least in the beginning, in cultivating the ability to be able to just "be still and be watchful". At least this is my opinion.
Thank you.
Lately I've been able to drop my idea of deep meditation being merely a form of concentration exercise and this causes a shift in my practice. It happens of course thanks to your explanations about DM (especially your descriptions are really beautiful an helpful, YogaIsLife). Thank you all for helping me to come along. My todays and yesterday morning sits were quite similar - different to what I've ever practiced. Let me share my experience with you.
In my previous attempts to do DM I always "pronounced" the mantra very clearly and conscientiously. That caused me to concentrate on it solely, with the tendency to exclude other objects. This time I introduced I AM very gently and lightly in the beginning of my sit. (It was actually only a very slight shift in my approach to the mantra - perhaps trusting it not to get lost makes a difference.) Soon I could notice that the repetition of it happens effortlessly, almost automatically, even when I didn't pay direct attention to it. This was previously not the case. This automatism worked so well that I believe not to have lost the mantra at all, except two or three times during my 30 minutes. My attention kind of oscillated between the mantra and other objects, as they naturally entered the mind. So it would go like attention 100% on mantra, then it would shift slowly to some, say, sound coming from the outside, gradually loosing contact with the mantra up to 80%, and with the next automatic repetition go back to it. Same thing with thinking, except it was not so easy to follow the process smoothly, so it looked more like switching back and forth. So the mantra functioned like a lighthouse for my awareness not to get lost. Or like a rope for a diver. I could move away from it to a certain distance and come safely back to it again. It worked really well for maintaining presence.
Another interesting thing was the changing "location" of the mantra in my body. When I think about something clearly, it happens in the center of my head. That's where the mantra occurred in the beginning of my sit. During the next 30 minutes it travelled downward to the hearth area and further to the third chakra, finally ending up somewhere in my guts.
Before I finished the sit I tried if I would be able to observe mindfully without the mantra and I got the impression of being pretty mindful - no getting lost.
Am I moving in the right direction? Does this resemble deep meditation as you understand it? Can anyone relate?
Mettá,
Roman
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Edited by - mimirom on Dec 11 2008 10:55:11 AM |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2008 : 9:56:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
Probably not.
I recently noticed a subtle but importnat shift in my meditation (I practice AYP). I realised meditation should not be about striving for anything, after all is all about being, isn't it? Just being. It's the "just" that is difficult, as we all know.
But now I go to meditation not expecting to "go" into meditation. I just allow myself to be, I don't sit and go "ok, now meditate" or "ok, now let's do this exercise well" or anything that would imply effort. I simply sit, however I happen to feel at the moment (no effort done to be "prepared" for meditation), and observe. Basically, for me, meditation is being watchful, aware, but in a simple effortless way. So, I watch my thoughts go by and introduce "I AM" there. I watch how my mind drifts, how it moves from thought to though, and then take it back to I AM, which I also observe. I think this might be the witness behind the thoughts, it is like you are just being watchful for whatever arises and for the way your mind bahaves. The mantra helps to make the mind still, as it is neutral, and gives soemthing for the mind to cling to (it's funny how we refer to the mind as if we were talking about a dog sometimes hahaha). Well, it seems to work. What I was doing "wrong" before was to try to be in a certain way in meditation, and to cling forcefully to the mantra. If I was doing this though, meditation still worked and I saw its effects and maybe I would not be able to remain watchful as I am now (witness cultivated) if it was not for those many months just trying to cling to the mantra. Now, I notice, just a simple introduction of I AM shifts the energy in the mind, and I don't really have to cling to it so forcefully.
I still think your contribution is very valuable Roman. I guess mindfullness is the most important practice, being watchful, present, aware. But the how to cultivate it is the trick, and it seems AYP has a simple effective mean, without the need for much effort or any complicated thought processes to make it happen (it is hard to just "be still and do nothing", isn't it?). The mantra helps, at least in the beginning, in cultivating the ability to be able to just "be still and be watchful". At least this is my opinion.
Thank you.
Lately I've been able to drop my idea of deep meditation being merely a form of concentration exercise and this causes a shift in my practice. It happens of course thanks to your explanations about DM (especially your descriptions are really beautiful an helpful, YogaIsLife). Thank you all for helping me to come along. My today and yesterday morning sits were quite similar - different to what I've ever practiced. Let me share my experience with you.
In my previous attempts to do DM I always "pronounced" the mantra very clearly and conscientiously. That caused me to concentrate on it solely, with the tendency to exclude other objects. This time I introduced I AM very gently and lightly in the beginning of my sit. (It was actually only a very slight shift in my approach to the mantra - perhaps trusting it not to get lost makes a difference.) Soon I could notice that the repetition of it happens effortlessly, almost automatically, even when I didn't pay direct attention to it. This was previously not the case. This automatism worked so well that I believe not to have lost the mantra at all, except two or three times during my 30 minutes. My attention kind of oscillated between the mantra and other objects, as they naturally entered the mind. So it would go like attention 100% on mantra, then it would shift slowly to some, say, sound coming from the outside, gradually loosing contact with the mantra up to 80%, and with the next automatic repetition go back to it. Same thing with thinking, except it was not so easy to follow the process smoothly, so it looked more like switching back and forth. So the mantra functioned like a lighthouse for my awareness not to get lost. Or like a rope for a diver. I could move away from it to a certain distance and come safely back to it again. It worked really well for maintaining presence.
Another interesting thing was the changing "location" of the mantra in my body. When I think about something clearly, it happens in the center of my head. That's where the mantra occurred in the beginning of my sit. During the next 30 minutes it travelled downward to the hearth area and further to the third chakra, finally ending up somewhere in my guts.
Before I finished the sit I tried if I would be able to observe mindfully without the mantra and I got the impression of being pretty mindful - no getting lost.
Am I moving in the right direction? Does this resemble deep meditation as you understand it? Can anyone relate?
Namasté,
Roman
Hi Roman,
This is very good. Very very good. To sense the mantra in your heart and stomach is a sign that your consciousness is involving. Continue.
Respect and blessings,
TMS |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2008 : 10:43:57 AM
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quote:
I simply sit, however I happen to feel at the moment (no effort done to be "prepared" for meditation), and observe. Basically, for me, meditation is being watchful, aware, but in a simple effortless way. So, I watch my thoughts go by and introduce "I AM" there. I watch how my mind drifts, how it moves from thought to though, and then take it back to I AM, which I also observe. I think this might be the witness behind the thoughts, it is like you are just being watchful for whatever arises and for the way your mind bahaves. The mantra helps to make the mind still, as it is neutral, and gives soemthing for the mind to cling to (it's funny how we refer to the mind as if we were talking about a dog sometimes hahaha). Well, it seems to work.
You know what, YogaIsLife?
I've been reading through your post several times and now I suddenly can see it. What you're describing is what I've been learning to do over the past three years. It corresponds just perfectly. In my language we call it "meditace bdele pozornosti", which means as much as "mindfulness meditation" in English. The only difference is that I used the rising and falling of my belly instead of "I AM", and I called it "primary meditation object" instead of "mantra".
....mmmmmmm
Namasté,
Roman |
Edited by - mimirom on Dec 11 2008 11:17:51 AM |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2008 : 11:43:27 AM
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Thanks Roman. that is great!
Yes, it seems like the same thing. I notice it is like a witness behind the mantra or any other thought, "observing" the mantra or whatever is in its "space". It is like a focus, I guess this is conscioussness. Awareness (a broader "thing") is that that permeates it all.
Well, at least that's how it all seems sometimes. Hopefully it will become more and more clearly with time.
I guess yes, the object of meditation could be anything: breath, belly, mantra, etc. There may be advantages to some objects over others like Yogani explained with the mantra: it can go on even if you are not breathing. I guess other advantages are the vibrational qualities of particular sounds. He says "I" vibrates with the 3rd eye and "AM" vibrates in the whole spinal nerve from 3rd eye to root. Although I am not that sensitive to it yet it does seem to be the case. The idea is not to focus on parts of the body though, but in just simply repeating the mantra in your mind.
As curiosity I can tell you that some sounds seem to be easier to see where they operate, like the high pitched SHREE or EE in the top of the head (crown). Or OM which seems to have a "circular" quality to it and resonate everywhere, somehow for me seems to originate somewhere in the space between the throat and the navel. All of this is fascinating stuff but the best thing is seeing the effects of effective techniques applied! AYP meditation seems to work, but it surely is not the only one that can work.
All the best my friend. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2008 : 11:49:13 AM
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Hi again Roman,
Sorry, I just briefly read parts of your previous post that I haven't read before. You say:
quote:
So the mantra functioned like a lighthouse for my awareness not to get lost. Or like a rope for a diver. I could move away from it to a certain distance and come safely back to it again. It worked really well for maintaining presence.
That's exactly how I feel! Since the beggining of starting AYP meditation I felt this. the mantra was like a center. My metaphor was that it felt like the mast of a ship in a stormy sea: a place to hang on to, for balance. It felt like, whenever I come back to the mantra, my consciousnnes kind of "centers" and everything else falls away. I wonder how much of this is actually conscioussness being focused inside the spinal nerve (is that the "mast" in my metaphor? ). Not worth analysing it though, enjoying the simple procedure of meditation is fun enough |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2008 : 12:23:30 PM
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Thanks for the encouraging words, TMS.
Roman |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2008 : 09:37:49 AM
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Hi everyone,
I've got some new unclarities regarding DEEP meditation, partly coming from my transition from classic vipassana meditation. I wonder if someone can relate.
Especially in my morning sits, I do not lose the mantra at all. And so, the part of the instruction - whenever you realize you are off the mantra, just go gently back to it - becomes a little tricky. As I do not lose the mantra at all, the question is rather how much concentration goes to the mantra?
I'm kind of playing with this, observing the I AM in different ways. Once i try to se it in detail, clearly and sharply (to go very close to it), then I try to let it become faint to see how far I can go with this without loosing it, or I try to observe it simultaneously with another object (which creates kind of gestalt switch), etc. Is this proper DEEP meditation?
Then, there are gaps between the individual I AMs, where the attention is free to go to other objects. And thats what I'm doing. I guess its not possible not to go to other objects. It might be a sensation, or even the expecting of the next I AM - that's an object too. So there is plenty of time between the I AMs to observe other things. Sometimes I also deliberately delay the next I AM so I can longer observe something else. So since I do not lose the mantra, I cannot find myself off it and go back. On the other hand I can see that I spend relatively lot of time being on other objects. Here the instruction on DM doesn't seem clear to me. Is this proper DEEP meditation?
Also, I find myself during DM using "mental noting." I've been using it for three years in meditation and it's a habit. Mental noting is a nice facilitating technique for keeping attention on objects. When you observe rising of the belly then you go very silently "rising,rising,rising" in your mind. Or "falling,falling", or "thinking,thinking", "hearing,hearing", "pleasurable,pleasurable" and so on. I do it automatically in the time between the I AMs, when my attention is on other things. It doesn't seem to interfere with anything. Does anyone have experiences with mental noting and DM? Is there a reason to work on breaking the habit?
Thanks in advance,
Roman
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tadeas
Czech Republic
314 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2008 : 10:38:26 AM
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Hi, you should let it become faint as you say you're doing and not even try to not lose the mantra. It isn't our goal to not lose it. The cycle of picking up the mantra, letting it refine, losing it and picking it up again is all there is to it. Really :)
It's not deep meditation if you consciously decide to concentrate on any other object or do any labeling. When it happens by itself, that's ok and when you realize it, you'll just gently go back to mantra again.
You just need enough concentration to pick up the mantra and then you're repeating it and letting it refine, no need to concentrate on it in any special way. Let go, let the process do itself, relax into it, there's really nothing to do during deep meditation, because it's so simple and after a while it becomes a habit. |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2008 : 7:34:48 PM
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| Thanks. |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2008 : 06:53:20 AM
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Hi all,
this morning I had a very satisfying sit. Not that I would intend to write here about every nice morning sit, but since this is still a continuation of my transition from vipassana, partly discussed in this thread, and since today a rather very nice fusion of mindfulness and DEEP meditation happened, allow me to share.
Also, a few questions might be to ask.
The sit lasted for about 40 minutes, unwinding in the following order:
* 10 min. SB pranayama with mulabandha and sambhavi mudra
* 2 min. groundig - observing contact with the ground (knees,feet,buttocks)+ feeling posture a little
* whole body relaxation in two waves going down the back and front of body
* 20 min. DEEP meditation
* 5 min."just sitting"-mindfulness,observing pleasant mind states in particular
* 3x bowing while briefly contemplating the Triple Gem
I was feeling whole and complete after this.
Two questions:
Every time I picked up the mantra, it soon begun to faint quite naturaly, up to a point where it was barely possible to recognize that it is I AM. At that point, only a slight intention was enough to let it go. It felt very natural. I'm only not clear if I should let the mantra go at the end of the cycle (with a tiny intention) or try to wait till I lose it unconsciously.
In one of my past sits I experienced the mantra descending through my fifth, fourth and third chakra down to the area of the second chakra. Today it felt very natural and easy to place the mantra consciously into these chakras (also sixth) and say it there. Is it good to do it? How does it influence the chakras, if it does?
Roman
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Edited by - mimirom on Dec 21 2008 7:28:37 PM |
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tadeas
Czech Republic
314 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2008 : 7:57:32 PM
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Hi :)
you don't need to use any intention to lose the mantra, only repeat it and it will dissolve by itself. The only thing you're consciously doing is picking up the mantra when you realize you're not on it, for whatever reason.
Regarding the location of mantra, here's a lesson on that: http://www.aypsite.org/27.html
In deep meditation, we don't locate the mantra in any particular place, and if you realize you're deliberately doing that, you'll just go fully back to the mantra :) |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2008 : 4:17:28 PM
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Hi there,
less then a week later, my meditation looks way different. Just wondering if I'm moving in the right direction, aiming for proper DEEP meditation.
I attempted to drop as much of my vipassana prejudices, habits, and automatisms as possible, and the way I experience DM now is again fairly different to what I've ever done.
It goes now like this:
I sit down,do SBP,relax, and "look around" briefly in the "space" of my mind, acknowledging whatever might be present at the moment. Then I introduce gently the mantra, having no intentions, nor expectations about how it should look like or behave, letting everything open to the moment. As soon as the mantra repeats itself, so to say, for the third or fourth time, the experience of the situation begins to change significantly. It feels like "diving under water", or entering a dark, well isolated room. The senses with their input become distant and detached. Also an impression of mild pressure around my head, or "intense" silence is there. It is what I would call an immersion, or absorption. Rather than mentally saying the mantra, I experience it like "resonating" inside. Also, a feeling of pressure on my chest occurs, and breathing slows down significantly.
This lasts with no effort the whole sit. It has also a feeling to it that "I wasn't there" during the meditation (). Not much mind activity happens in that state - rather few thoughts, sensual input like from great distance.
This state is absolutely different from the crystal-clear,alert and wakeful vipassana state, which is precisely and instantly aware of everything that happens in the mind.
Would appreciate your comments,
Roman |
Edited by - mimirom on Dec 28 2008 11:08:02 AM |
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tadeas
Czech Republic
314 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2008 : 3:04:27 PM
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Hi, it seems you're doing great :)
The experiences in deep meditation will be changing as you go through various levels of purification, so just always gently come back to the mantra :)
Clarity will be there during the day. Enjoy :) |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2008 : 4:49:24 PM
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Hi Tadeas,
appreciate your interest and generosity,
Namasté,
Roman |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2009 : 6:04:21 PM
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Yes,
It's there. Right now. With deep meditation, the process of disidentification goes on.
Take care,
Roman |
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Mindfulness Anyone...?
