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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 26 2008 : 11:38:55 AM
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My major interest is in hip hop, the culture and dance in particular. The true hip hop culture is completely different than what we are led to believe by what we see on TV and what is sold in stores.
And what true hip hop is about is analogous to the AYP method of "flat" teaching rather than having Yogani on a pedestal with everyone else facing him.
I went to the pre-screening and panel discussion of a new unreleased
movie "Everything Remains Raw, Hip hop's Folkloric Lineage". The movie maker is Moncel Durden, a hip hop dance teacher from the east coast whom I have taken a few classes from.
The movie showed that real hip hop dancing comes mostly from social dancing in African American culture.
One of the differences between African American culture and the dominant European culture in the US is that much of the social dancing includes the whole community, including kids.
I am beginning to think that makes more of a difference than genetics in African Americans being "naturally" better at dance.
And this is an example of how "flat" methods of knowledge dissemination produce better graduates than the traditional heirarchical (pedestal) arrangement.
A panel discussion after the movie included discussion of cultural differences. There were university professors and representatives from the dance community.
One university professor of dance is a woman from Senegal, and what she said about cultural differences made a lot of sense.
She said the European view is "I think, therefore I am." But the African view is "I participate, therefore I am."
She said the European world view is dominant in the US, and shows in all parts of our culture. It starts with the arrangement of the Queen and her court, with the people neatly arranged to look up to the queen. All of our society is built on that concept; schools, churches, jobs, entertainment, government, dance classes, etc.
But the African American culture is built more like the dance circle, where each person takes a turn in the middle. Each person changes between the role of teacher and the role of student.
In the circle there is an unspoken language that must be conformed to or the participants will throw you out of the circle.
The language is connecting with who came before you, showing an understanding of what they did by copying to some extent, but expressing it in your own personal way. then you add on something new in an attempt to better them or change the subject.
This kind of exchange is suppressed in European culture, and as a result, personal creativity and divine inspiration is suppressed by 'the queen and her court' - type of arrangement.
Personal creativity and expression is considered dangerous by European standards because if one has a direct connection with God where creativity is inspired, then there is no need for the person on the pedestal; the queen, the pastor, the church, the teacher, etc.
So Europeans and Americans are taught to be "proper" and frown upon each other for any deviations, which are considered "poor breeding".
And so I think that Yogani's "flat" method of teaching at AYP is not just a different method, but a much more effective and self-improving method of disseminating knowledge and sharing results.
Creativity and expression may not seem apply to Yoga, but both are caused by a divine connection, which is the essence of Yoga.
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2008 : 2:10:55 PM
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I would be more interested in the validity of this theory if the founders of hip-hop were from Africa and truly inspired the movement. Unless it's based on the theory that the African Hip-Hop Participants are genetically connected to the African Monarchy, but that would segregate others that are not African American who were also co-founders of the hip-hop movement in America.
I've worked with people from all over the world, including direct descendents from Africa who have nothing in common with African Americans, the hip-hop movement, or Americans, and there is an understandable cultural disconnect there, regardless if the person happens to have the same skin color or other genetic similarities to an African American person. It's like saying that most Asians have an natural predispositon for being great mathematicians, since they are descendents from... or whatever stereotype we want to use in this example.
So I don't think that there is an inherent predisposition that stems from Africa or anything to do with ethnicity. Otherwise everyone would have this same mind-set who is an American and not just an African American, since most Americans are descendents from many countries, beside Africa. And going by the theory that the cultural influence from Europe and Africa were that strong - then many Americans should simutaneously hold the view: "I think, therefore I am and - I particapate, therefore I am". And what is the mind-set of Americans that are not descendents of Europe or Africa? And what if the person if a descendent of both?
Anyway, that's how I view the topic for discussion:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Oct 26 2008 2:57:02 PM |
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porcupine
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2008 : 5:59:03 PM
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| I was walking around in the park and this guy came up talking about my clothes, saying you don't need to wear clothes that stand out to draw attention, you should only rely on your inner self. So I says to him, relying on my inner most self, okay? these clothes are closer to my center than you are sitting right there, really its you who are the external factor in this regard and to follow your suggestion would just be to put on another pair of clothes even less true to myself. Then we sat down and he asked to listen to my headphones to see where I was coming from, I played him some J Dilla. He told me the beat had been around since the seventies and he'd heard it many times before. Also told me about Hell Rell, a rapper he listened to. Not really my type of stuff, but whatever. He was a cool dude, got a nice cipher going for 3 days now... |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2008 : 10:38:06 PM
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Vil,
I tried to shorten the story so as not to be off topic too long before i related it to yoga.
the founders of hip hop were not "from" Africa, they were African-American. The circle teaching methods came from Africa but it is here in the African American culture that they apply to hip hop. This is not just one ethnicity. It originated in the Bronx, New York at the time of "The Bronx is Burning", when slumlords were paying thugs to burn down low income housing so they could collect the insurance. There were many, many fires, people were killed, and others relocated into empty buildings, and the poor felt they had nothing. So in spite of extreme poverty and cultural clashes, this paradigm from the african american culture began to include the hispanic and puerto rican cultures also, and others.
They all began the circle teaching in the streets and abandoned buildings.
But it was primarily the African Americans who include it in their culture since childhood, and so benefit from many more years of circle teaching. So their dance predisposition is not from the ethnicity, it's from the circle teaching. That was my point, that "flat" teaching, or person to person rather than teacher on a pedestal is effective.
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Yes, porcupine, that is an example of someone trying to make you conform, be "proper", not wanting to allow self expression. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Oct 26 2008 10:40:07 PM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2008 : 01:45:13 AM
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I understand that the founders of hip-hop were not from Africa, Etherfish. I was commenting on what a panelist said concerning cultural influence:
quote:
A panel discussion after the movie included discussion of cultural differences. There were university professors and representatives from the dance community.
One university professor of dance is a woman from Senegal, and what she said about cultural differences made a lot of sense.
*She said the European view is "I think, therefore I am." But the African view is "I participate, therefore I am."
She said the European world view is dominant in the US, and shows in all parts of our culture. It starts with the arrangement of the Queen and her court, with the people neatly arranged to look up to the queen. All of our society is built on that concept; schools, churches, jobs, entertainment, government, dance classes, etc.
You used the panelist's theory of African/European Cultural influence, on America, connecting them to hip-hop dance circles, which directly supported the crux of your point concerning flat teaching (African influence*) and teacher on a pedestal (European Influence). This is what you said:
quote:
But the African American culture is built more like the dance circle, where each person takes a turn in the middle. Each person changes between the role of teacher and the role of student.
This kind of exchange is suppressed in European culture, and as a result, personal creativity and divine inspiration is suppressed by 'the queen and her court' - type of arrangement.
Personal creativity and expression is considered dangerous by European standards because if one has a direct connection with God where creativity is inspired, then there is no need for the person on the pedestal; the queen, the pastor, the church, the teacher, etc.
So Europeans and Americans are taught to be "proper" and frown upon each other for any deviations, which are considered "poor breeding".
I understood the spirit of your post - that you were trying to make it short and applicable to yoga. I just wanted to let you know where I was coming from and wasn't confused, accept where I said "African" Monarchy, when it should have just been monarchy: LOL: 
Anyway, the movie sounds like a heart wrenching tale and I would love to see it. When does it come out?
Take care:
VIL
P.S. "I think therefore I am" - Descartes
http://www.publicbookshelf.com/publ...kth_bga.html
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Edited by - VIL on Oct 27 2008 03:15:32 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2008 : 08:10:46 AM
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Don't know when it comes out; it's not finished yet. The pre-screening was to get feedback and help that process.
Vil wrote quote:
"So I don't think that there is an inherent predisposition that stems from Africa or anything to do with ethnicity."
But I was saying the predisposition of being able to dance naturally came from the flat teaching of childhood, not african ethnicity.
To do is to be - Sartre; To be is to do - Socrates; Do be do be do - Frank Sinatra |
Edited by - Etherfish on Oct 28 2008 7:26:01 PM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 06:30:52 AM
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Hey, Etherfish, I don't want to continue to detract from the essence of your post, and experience, because you raised a lot of great points - and you explained your perspective in a follow-up post. I do agree with both concepts from Descartes of "I think therefore I am" and the other social/learning model mainly attibuted to John Seely Brown, "We participate therefore I am/we are".
As far as being able to dance naturally (unencumbered), coming from the flat teaching model of childhood, due to freedom of expression, I agree with, regardless if it's a dance circle, other learning environment, or whatever. So I really am on the same page that you are, but I was (orignally, but no longer am) confused why you bothered using the panelists theory of cultural differences (really influence) as an additional support when the woman from West Africa was strongly linking European cultural influence, as a contributing factor to behavioral differences within America - which, in my opinion, was really taking liberties, however well intended:
quote:
She said the European world view is dominant in the US, and shows in all parts of our culture. It starts with the arrangement of the Queen and her court, with the people neatly arranged to look up to the queen. All of our society is built on that concept; schools, churches, jobs, entertainment, government, dance classes, etc.
The above is a generalization, creating a separation, categorization, of what the panelist considered the better teaching methodology, as the mind-set/behavior of Africans, using the philosophy of Decartes (who was European, btw) and an American(John Keely Brown), which was kind of odd:
I'm sure that many African people would feel differently and will say that both models are dominant in their culture. The same goes with Americans and Europeans.So, really, that's the only thing that I took issue with. Not your experience or the points that you raised.
quote:
But I was saying the predisposition of being able to dance naturally came from the flat teaching of childhood, not african ethnicity.
I get that you weren't stating that it had anything to do with genetics or ethnicity; But it seemed to be the case, with the woman from Sengal, since it was a panel discussion on the origins of a sub-culture, namely the hip-hop community within the US, predominantely African American, where she appeared to be attributing the same flat teaching model as already apparent within African Culture, and the hip hop community, while she generalized, what she percieved as the an inferior mind-set, stemming from European inluence, seemingly affecting many institutions, within the US today. None of which theories can be substantiated. So there was definitely a cultural bias, in my opinion, since I am sure that there are many Europeans that employ both teaching methodologies, as does the US and Africa. Although unintended, the panelist was putting Africa and individuals in the hip-hop community on a pedestal.
Anyway, I enjoyed your post and wanted to know the writing where Descartes said, "To be is to do"?
Take care:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Oct 28 2008 07:32:23 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 7:51:58 PM
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Oops, googling stuff is so easy . . . to get wrong.
To do is to be - Sartre; To be is to do - Socrates; Do be do be do - Frank Sinatra
I changed the above also. Weird; the first attribution came from a legal site. who knew.
By "dance naturally" i didn't mean so much "unemcumbered" although that's important, but i meant more dancing so expertly with seemingly so little effort.
Yes I'm sure there was cultural bias by the panelist from Senegal, although it didn't seem so as she spoke. But the audience being hip hop dancers, we tended to agree with her. As she described the circle teaching, we identified with the way we dance. It is described as "Ubuntu", from the Bantu language in southern Africa.
Archbishop Desmond Tutu, in his book No Future Without Forgiveness, says: "Ubuntu is very difficult to render into a Western language... It is to say, 'My humanity is caught up, is inextricably bound up, in what is yours.'"
And as the panelist described the "European" model, we identified with the way we have always learned before the circle.
The "European learning model" can be substantiated by our own experience. All through school the students were neatly arranged facing the teacher, who had complete power and unyielding dominance. At church it is the same. At our work it is the same. Our government is operated that way too. Stage entertainment is arranged that way also. So are traditional dance classes. Always one or more teachers/leaders on a pedestal, with the crowd giving them complete authority.
Then when we learned the dance circle arrangement, the person in the middle had authority for a minute, then it was passed on to the next, and there is never any ruling authority judging who is better or correct. That is up to the individual. Each person displays what he knows, but each judgement is by the individual. Participants always disagree later on who was best, yet nobody makes an authoritative "final judgement". This is how nature operates; multiple lines of diversity.
With this flat teaching method you will have a majority who follow in one direction, and stragglers who differ but still hang around. It's very free and empowering. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Oct 28 2008 8:29:28 PM |
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Lacinato
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2008 : 5:50:36 PM
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That is so interesting. So you recommend the movie then, for those interested?
Nice to see someone else on their path that also likes hip-hop :) |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2008 : 7:14:41 PM
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| Yes, but the movie won't be out for a while. I'm an older guy, and i like hip hop but not how the media sells it. i am into the roots of real hip hop which is about everyone being capable of some kind of personal expression. |
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Lacinato
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Nov 16 2008 : 4:01:46 PM
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| The media version is... I can't believe people can listen to that still. It just repeats the same old cliches, there is no art. But outside of there, there is some beautiful stuff. |
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porcupine
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2008 : 6:50:22 PM
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| its real do it yourself i guess opposite of everything else, media gives out the worst of the rawest materials, heads refine it, bring out the essence. |
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"Flat" teaching vs teacher on a pedestal
