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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 19 2008 : 12:11:57 PM
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Question: when doing spinal breathing, the imagination is used at first until presumably the kundalini awakens and then the imagination is not needed?
If pranayama causes the kundalini to rise, and pranayama means restraint of air (oxygen) then why not just hold the breath to wake the kundalini? What is the point of all this imagination business? The mind can only think one thought at a time, and so adding all the other practices (closing the epiglottis, doing kechari, sambhavi, root lock, imagination) simply scatters the mind by concentrating on several things in succession. But if you just need to relax then why not just concentrate on the sound of the breath and one thought in the mind while holding the breath to stimulate kundalini?
I am saying, i don't see the point in using the imagination at all. If kundalini exists, it will awaken and find its own way up the spinal nerve etc.
And the relationship between the semen and kundalini is not clear cut. Kundalini is pranic energy, which is like a different form of matter and certainly not related to semen, surely?
Exactly how does the root lock cause semen to go backwards and up into the body and spine? I don't understand this.
Another thing. People who have sleep apnea perform a type of automatic khechari and sleep apnea causes high blood pressure. It seems to me that lowering the consumption ox oxygen through relaxation causes the throat to constrict and pull back the tongue. So surely this causes high blood pressure? I fail to see how it would cause low blood pressure.
Yogani says that pranayama creates a vacuum effect that pulls up the sexual semen. If this is true, then a celibate person who holds his breath out after oxygenating the blood should have a kundalini awakening, no?
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Jo-self
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - Oct 19 2008 : 7:40:43 PM
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gumpi:
Does pranayama really mean "restraint of air (oxygen)"? I don't think so. More like artful control or guidance of Prana. Oxygen does not equal Prana.
If holding the breath were enough, people close to drowning, asphyxiation, or sleep apnea would have discovered or reported yogic phenomena (OOBE is related of course).
jo-self
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Oct 20 2008 : 08:04:51 AM
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Hi Gumpi 
quote:
Question: when doing spinal breathing, the imagination is used at first until presumably the kundalini awakens and then the imagination is not needed?
Even after kundalini awakening, the imagination is still used during spinal breathing. The awakening of kundalini will lead to the rise of ecstatic conductivity and that makes it easier to feel what is happening in the body, but still the imagination is needed.
quote:
If pranayama causes the kundalini to rise, and pranayama means restraint of air (oxygen) then why not just hold the breath to wake the kundalini?
Jo-self is right, pranayama does not mean restraint of air, or even restraint of prana. This is a common misconception, and in many yoga schools this definition is used.
The word pranayama comes from the words "prana" and "ayama". Prana means air, wind, breath and "life force", whilst "apana" means restraint, expansion, or extension. Air contains a mixture of gasses including oxygen.
Holding the breath is called kumbhaka, and is a form of pranayama. It is possible to awaken kundalini by holding the breath but it is not a safe method when used as a stand alone practice. In AYP the slowing of the breath during spinal breathing has a similar effect on the kundalini energy as kumbhaka, but is much safer. And once meditation and spinal breathing pranayama are well established, kumbhaka is gradually introduced in the form of yoni mudra kumbhaka and dynamic jalandara.
This is a much safer way to awaken kundalini with much less risk of energetic overloads and physical problems.
quote:
What is the point of all this imagination business? The mind can only think one thought at a time, and so adding all the other practices (closing the epiglottis, doing kechari, sambhavi, root lock, imagination) simply scatters the mind by concentrating on several things in succession.
If you follow the lessons, mudras and bandhas and other additions are only added when you are already stable in a practice, and adding something new does not distract you from the practice. So start off with basic spinal breathing, and only add ujayi breathing, sambhavi etc if you do not find it distracting. When they are done properly, these additions do not use the imagination, but are physical actions that become automatic and so do not divide the mind.
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And the relationship between the semen and kundalini is not clear cut. Kundalini is pranic energy, which is like a different form of matter and certainly not related to semen, surely?
There is a relationship between kundalini energy and sexual energy. I would say that sexual energy is the expression of kundalini in the lower chakras. In the higher chakras, kudalini is expressed as divine love, bliss and supramundane intelligence. There is also a relationship between sexual energy and sexual fluids (in both men and women). As sexual energy begins to rise and be transmuted into higher forms of expression through the rise of kundalini, so the sexual essences are drawn up inside the body. Whole body mudra plays an important part in this process.
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Exactly how does the root lock cause semen to go backwards and up into the body and spine? I don't understand this.
Root lock causes a reversal in the normal flow of prana in the body. It creates a gentle energetic pull upwards which stops prana from descending and causes it to rise. When this upward flow of energy becomes strong it is often automatically accompanied by udyana bandha and sambhavi and by a feeling of ecstasy. A flow of energy can be felt like a stream or river inside the body. It is this gentle flow of energy which causes the sexual fluids to rise.
quote:
Another thing. People who have sleep apnea perform a type of automatic khechari and sleep apnea causes high blood pressure. It seems to me that lowering the consumption ox oxygen through relaxation causes the throat to constrict and pull back the tongue. So surely this causes high blood pressure?
I think this is a mistake in causal relationships. You are saying that if A causes B then B must cause A which is not true.
Kechari mudra does not directly lower the blood pressure. It is a higher tantric practice designed to stimulate sexual energy to rise up through the body, and to activate some of the minor energy centres in the brain. It also aligns some of the major nadis in the body. By aiding the overall enlightenment process it may well reduce blood pressure in the long term, as people who are enlightened tend to be quite chilled out, and stress is one of the main causes of high blood pressure.
quote:
Yogani says that pranayama creates a vacuum effect that pulls up the sexual semen. If this is true, then a celibate person who holds his breath out after oxygenating the blood should have a kundalini awakening, no?
Yes. Celibacy is a spiritual practice designed to preserve sexual energy. Bastrika is a powerful kundalini practice and does oxygenate the blood, and kumbhaka is another powerful practice which creates a strong draw on the kundalini energy. It would work, and is part of AYP for anyone who has chosen celibacy and has progressed to the stage where they have included bastrika and yoni mudra kumbhaka as part of their practice. by the time they reach that stage they would have already done a lot of purification work on their nervous system, and would have paved the way for a safe kundalini awakening.
How are you getting on with your practices?
Christi
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Oct 20 2008 : 1:18:41 PM
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Hello Christi, this is an interesting response but i think there are a few errors.
Firstly, khumbaka is what causes the kundalini to rise. In everything i have read about pranayama this is stated. So it appears to be the case that restraint or oxygen deficit causes the kundalini to arise. It is true that bhastrika before khumbaka is good because it ensures a relatively correct amount of oxygen to be retained in the blood. Also, it may be true that SB in Yogani's system is gentle due to no khumbaka. However, i don't think it is true that SB with khumbaka is deemed to be dangerous. And i think it is incorrect to say that the imagination is continued to be used after kundalini awakens because it simply becomes superfluous.
I think there is a big misconception about prana. The ancients who discovered pranayama techniques knew next to nothing in comparison with us about physiology and biology. Therefore they tended to assume that nervous energy was some kind of magical prana pervading the body. Now we know that physiology accounts for the actions of nervous motions and not "prana". Prana denotes that the electrical exchange between nuerons is something akin to an electric current, whereas we know now that it is more like a tiny electrical charge between one cell and another. The idea of prana contains the idea of an astral body double and this idea is, i think, plainly absurd. Not only does the most sophisticaed scientific instruments fail to detect prana, but nobody is born with a perception of pranic energy since such a thing has to be cultivated by yoga practices. I have known all my life that i have a mind and a body and there is nothing in between them. If you want it from an authoritative source then Swami Vivekananda should do - when he was asked if the kundalini and the chakras were real things he replied that his teacher (Ramakrishna) said they are developed through yoga practices. Another point of proof which i think is relevant personally is that from the medium Gordon Smith who said that as far as the afterlife is concerned he doesn't know what it is like, that we can only really trully know when we get there, despite the fact that he communicates with the dead.
Some people may disagree based on their own personal experiences but i submit that what i have said above accounts for the phenomenon of prana and nothing else needs to be added to it.
You also said that khechari mudra doesn't reduce blood pressure. This is incorrect. When the throat is constricted, whether by uddiyana, jaladhara bandha, putting the head backwards or khechari mudra, pressure is exerted on the carotid sinuses in the neck which directly reduces blood pressure. When blood pressure is lowered by constricting the throat, the tongue automatically goes backwards and inwards to seal the air from entering, provided there is the requisite relaxation. I know this is a fact because i can experience it any time i want to and the tongue automatically retreats by itself without force or effort of will. And also, people have kundalini awakenings regardless of semen. There are plenty of examples of this all over the place if you look. So when i said that sleep apnea imitates khechari mudra when blood pressure is lowered, this is actually true. However, the difference between sleep apnea and yoga practices is that the latter is done consciously and so the risk of a heart attack through increased blood pressure is avoided. Since sleep apnea happens in a cumulative way in a state of unconsciousness, it is dangerous.
Swami Satyananda Saraswati said that celibacy is not neccessary for kundalini awakening. He illustrated the difference between energy used thinking of sex being transmuted and freed for yoga practices, and actual loss of semen. The mistake in general is with the term "Ojas". Ojas is not semen but the energy in the semen TRANSMUTED into a pranic energy i.e. kundalini. So again, sexual fluid or semen has nothing to do with prana or with awakening of kundalini nor associated with some kind of entering into the body from the testes and travelling up the spine.
I beg to differ with the idea that kundalini awakening is dangerous or can be "safer". The reason is because simple exercise can also be dangerous if it isn't approached sensibly and people overdo. This can cause problems with the lungs, the blood and the brain. At the end of the day, yoga practices are simply the equivalent of external exercise. That is why pranayama can cause people to perspire. So yes i agree purification by preparation is necessary but to claim that kundalini is dangerous is misleading.
I also do not believe that kundalini can be consciously controlled by the mind. Once the kundalini does its thing it behaves independently from anything the mind would like to do to control it. But that is another issue.
This subject is huge but i would like to say a few more things.
In Vivekananda's Raja Yoga book, he quotes an ancient text on Raja Yoga in which it is said that very long durations of pranayama breathing and retention cause a person to levitate. So presumably kundalini awakening has nothing to do with levitation, since Vivekananda said he had never seen anybody levitating before. However, this ancient text obviously doesn't know that levitation is accomplished in two different ways a) by stimulating a particular nerve and b) by samyama. So what i am saying is that the ancient writers on yoga were superstitious and they wrote in exaggerated ways that are not in line with science or reality. I'm saying this to back up my point that "prana" is a misconstrued concept.
Firstly, prana in the context of pranayama, refers to the automatic nervous action of the lungs inflating and deflating to draw in air and expel. THe idea is to gain control over the muscles of the lungs, thence the nerves etc. So pranayama is not just the control of breath, it is using the breath to get at the nerves that move the lungs. However, it is not correct (i believe) to postulate on from this that there is an immaterial pranic energy involved. Pranayama is two words "prana" which designates life force and "aayama" which means control. So pranayama is controlling the life force. Whichever way you look at it, it is clear that "life force" refers to the action of nerve currents. And in pranayama this means controlling the breath to get control over these nerve currents. In other words, pranayama has nothing to do with "pranic energy" or as the Chinese call it "chi".
The whole purpose of pranayama is to gain control over the autonomic functions of the body via the breath. Some people are born with a knack of controlling certain autonomic functions while others have to practice things to achieve similar results. For example, some people can will their heart to slow down just with their mind. I would venture to guess that the majority of people cannot do this. Some people have exceptional concentration abilities naturally whereby they can cause any part of the body they put their attention on to increase temperature. And indeed if you look at some of the Chinese "chi" masters, this is exactly what they do - except they put it down to "chi" and not known physiological parameters.
I saw a video on Youtube where some guy claimed that because of his kundalini being awakened he could put a piece of paper on the palm of his hand and through sheer concentration could make the paper bend upwards. Sure enough, he could do it. I was mystified by this for awhile because i couldn't understand the relationship between kundalini and this phenomenon other than to put it down to a "siddhi". THat is, until i realised that it had nothing to do with kundalini at all - what he was doing was concentrating his attention on the palm of his hand to heat it up and this is what made the paper bend from the centre so that the edges turned up. In other words, there are people out there, whether they know it or not, who are decieving.
And it is this "whether they know it or not" bit that is so important when it comes to Yoga because people might genuinely believe that kundalini has something to do with some kind of "pranic energy" when in fact it is just purely physiological reactions involving gaining some control over the autonomic functions of the body.
Briefly as far as i can say it, i believe that the perception of light in the forehead and the accompanying inner sounds people get as a product of yoga practices are nothing but physiological responses to relaxation and oxygen deficit. One of the most common experiences people have is hearing the sound of bells, which just turns out to be tinnitus possibly mixed with hearing the circulation of the blood inwardly. And the light seen at the third eye corresponds almost exactly with the Near-Death-Experience of a tunnel with a light in the middle, which is due to a lack of oxygen to the brain. Now, it stands to reason that if you exert pressure on your eyes and lift your eyes at the same time (ie yoni mudra) as well as restricting the amount of blood oxygen to the brain (not to mention contricting the throat) in extended sessions of practice and especially as a way of life over a reasonable period of time in regularity, that the pressure on the eyes drains the blood to them and you percieve in inner light. People with bad eyesight who get headaches percieve this light.
So i think i have covered a lot here. I must stop with one last thought. That is, the existence of ESP is not in question to my mind. I do believe it exists in various forms, but i do not believe practising yoga has anything to do with it. To a certain extent the mind needs to be calm and in a theta brainwave state to access intuition and thereby experience ESP. And this is best done by entering the hypnagogic state, which simply just means remaining alert while the body falls asleep. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 20 2008 : 4:58:04 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
I don't think there is much of a point in arguing with you as you seem to have your mind made up no matter who or what is presented to you as evidence of the opposite. I just want to make one comment on one thing you said...
You said "And the light seen at the third eye corresponds almost exactly with the Near-Death-Experience of a tunnel with a light in the middle, which is due to a lack of oxygen to the brain." You are right about the light at the end of the tunnel being the same as the one experienced in OBE's, but where did you get the idea that this is caused by a lack of oxygen in the brain? i could point you to a million studies and just as many books on the fact that the OBE and the light at the end of the tunnel is in direct corrospondence with the release of DMT (or DMT precursurs) from the pineal gland in the brain. Ever hear of a book called "DMT, The Spirit Molecule" by Rick Strassman? Or any of the other corrosponding research in this area? I don't think you know quite as much as you seem to put forth that you do.
Love,
Carson |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Oct 20 2008 : 5:16:01 PM
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What do you make of Kirlian photography? The Human Electrical Field has been documented and studied by many scientists, not to mentioned photographed. And what of people that see auras like Barbara Ann Brennan? She has been studied intensely and has proven to be able to diagnose obscure ailements by observing the aura.
I am a skeptic much like yourself and I resonate with a lot of your thoughts, but I also found that these thoughts got in the way of progress. This realization led to me think "well, what if that means I am just imagining these things?" Then that led to me question what does the word "imagine" mean? It means it is not "reality"...but my fundamental belief that pervades all is that we create our reality so to "imagine" something does not mean it is not real because, to quote Morpheus, "real? what is real?" Perhaps this is what the teacher you mentioned meant when he said the chakras are developed through practice. It is not so much that they are created...moreso that they are a reality that is integrated into your reality.
A personal example is when I did LSD prior to any spiritual practices. I did it with a friend and we were later able to recall the same visual hallucinations. During the shared experience we also could reach eachothers thoughts as if it were a natural ability. At the time this ability, which perhaps is dormant in the average person, was "reality" and quite natural and undeniable. Later on when I look back I am inclined to be a skeptic and others has doubted the validity of the experience but at the time is was absolutely real and my need to prove it after the fact seems silly at this point. Reality is what you experience, period. There is no Universal Reference Point for comparison of personal experience, nor are there adequate words to communicate with total fidelity something that is beyond language and words.
Sorry if this is meandering, but as a last thought I still feel I have a Little Skeptic inside that always wants to invalidate every experience I have. I have learned through my education in bodywork and my personal spiritual experience that doubt always comes after the fact. You can experience a rush of coolness on the forehead and then say "ah, maybe just a breeze". You can walk through the city and be overcome by the ecstatic realization of the presence of God in all things and then think "well, maybe I'm just psyching myself out". The point it, as I see it, AT THE TIME you experience the omnipotence of God. 3 seconds later you experience "ah, it was delusional". This is point of present-moment awareness that necessiates the detachment from the analytical mind. Experience ideally is moment to moment so if you experience of a moment of spritiual bliss then it is reality. If 3 seconds later you experience skepticism then now that is your reality. But I don;t believe there is an absolute reference point for any of this so for me the answer is the classic "you create your own reality".
If you take science and numbers to be absolute consider that you can basically find a study to prove whatever it is you want to hear. There are always numbers to support both sides of an argument more often then not. The more "abstract" the subject the more this is the case.
And in regards to your origianl question about the imagination in spinal breathing, which is a question I find myself asking quite often being a "newb" who experiences the shushumna on and off...
Once again the question of what you mean by "imagination" comes into play. If you close your eyes and visualize the palm of your hand most likely you will experience tingling or something of that nature in that area. You cannot really say that your eyeballs traveled through your neck, shoulders, arms and into your palm. You essentially "imagined" the palm with the knowledge of where and what it is and it registered with *awareness* of that area. When you imagine the spinal nerve I believe you are brinigng awareness to it and thus working with it. The shshumna is there is all persons and serves a nuerological function, but to what extent depends on the person also. You mentioned that you believe in ESP and the like. By the same logic as "everyone would feel their spinal nerve" then "everyone should have ESP". You have to assume that ESP is dormant or unconcious at best in the average person...yet it is proven that people can accomplish it. Same with the spinal nerve. This is Yogani's foundation for his practice when he talks of the higher functioning of the nervous system as evolution.
So, the "imagination" to me is not much different than "attention" or "awareness". You can argue that imagination is awarness of something that needs to be conceptualized whereas awareness is attention on something...but once I again I use the hand anaology. You are conceptualizing your hand when you close your eyes and imagine it. In fact, to get really "out there", all matter is conceptualized considering it is technically an ether of extremely close particles. |
Edited by - anthony574 on Oct 20 2008 5:30:26 PM |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Oct 20 2008 : 5:46:30 PM
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Hi, interesting topic. I just read anthony's answer and thought it so interesting that I read the first post by gumpi and decided to join. 
Gumpi wrote "If pranayama causes the kundalini to rise, and pranayama means restraint of air (oxygen) then why not just hold the breath to wake the kundalini?". Well, in my opinion, because you have a system through which energy runs. The spinal nerve or sushumna is the primary cahnnel apparently. Thus, opening it first would be a wise thing to do before forcing kundalini loose. Otherwise it's like forcing a wild river through a dam - trouble.
All the other mudras that you mention are exatly for the same purpose as well: opening the system for an easier flow of energy.
Just wanted to say this Thanks! |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Oct 21 2008 : 02:35:50 AM
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Gumpi,
I agree with you that ESP has nothing to do with Yoga, maybe the ESP of a person can be enhanced by the meditation. I have made some OOBEs before the Yoga practices, and I have noticed that the breath lessens while one is "outside" the body, but is not apnea, its only that all the biological functions of the body lessens while one is outside. I have met some mediums with incredible powers and they are not yogis, but they use the nostril breathing, and retain the air for up to 10 seconds in each nostril, I think this helps them to enter into the trance state that they need to perform their ability, then they fall into the trance state. They can perform wonderful abilities, or healings, but that doesn't mean that they are enlightened, they are very humans.
I think Yoga helps to be "aware" of anything, be it spiritual, or physical, same as the Shamans.
I have tried to imagine the sushumna, but I can't, I just know or am aware that it's there, cause I feel the energy flowing up and down, but cannot feel the thread of the nerve. Maybe I need more sensitivity, But I think the K energy is so intelligent that it hides things, like a game, till one finds them, like the "I am" mantra, I couldn't feel it, cause I was in the wrong way, I was looking at it inside my body, and it was working outside, so its like a game of hide and seek.
I think its a game of consciousness, like Muktananda have said.
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
So i think i have covered a lot here. I must stop with one last thought. That is, the existence of ESP is not in question to my mind. I do believe it exists in various forms, but i do not believe practising yoga has anything to do with it. To a certain extent the mind needs to be calm and in a theta brainwave state to access intuition and thereby experience ESP. And this is best done by entering the hypnagogic state, which simply just means remaining alert while the body falls asleep.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Oct 21 2008 : 02:44:45 AM
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Hi Gumpi,
quote:
Firstly, khumbaka is what causes the kundalini to rise. In everything I have read about pranayama this is stated. So it appears to be the case that restraint or oxygen deficit causes the kundalini to arise.
I experienced several kundalini awakenings before I started practicing kumbhaka. In many traditions kumbhaka is not taught and is advised against as it can be dangerous. And yet people in these traditions experience kundalini awakenings and attain full enlightenment. I am not sure what your sources are, but they may have been written by kumbhaka devotees.
quote:
However, I don't think it is true that SB with khumbaka is deemed to be dangerous
I sometimes practice spinal breathing with kumbhaka, but Yogani has advised people not to do it on the grounds that it could shift too much energy too fast. See here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=2048#30296
quote:
And I think it is incorrect to say that the imagination is continued to be used after kundalini awakens because it simply becomes superfluous.
My kundalini is awakened, and yet I still use imagination during spinal breathing.
quote:
I think there is a big misconception about prana. The ancients who discovered pranayama techniques knew next to nothing in comparison with us about physiology and biology. Therefore they tended to assume that nervous energy was some kind of magical prana pervading the body. Now we know that physiology accounts for the actions of nervous motions and not "prana". Prana denotes that the electrical exchange between nuerons is something akin to an electric current, whereas we know now that it is more like a tiny electrical charge between one cell and another.
Scientists are very knowledgeable in many fields, yet they know very little (yet) about prana, kundalini, or the process of human spiritual transformation. This may all change one day, and children may be taught about prana in schools, and a whole lot more may be possible.
quote:
The idea of prana contains the idea of an astral body double and this idea is, I think, plainly absurd.
Someone once suggested that the earth was round, and everyone told him that was absurd. There are incredible things going on in the universe that we know nothing about. Even scientists admit that they only know a fraction of what is out there (or in here ) . I would not say that something is absurd before finding out what it is. Once you are travelling around in your astral body, you probably would not say it is absurd.
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I have known all my life that i have a mind and a body and there is nothing in between them. If you want it from an authoritative source then Swami Vivekananda should do - when he was asked if the kundalini and the chakras were real things he replied that his teacher (Ramakrishna) said they are developed through yoga practices.
Vivekananda was right, the chakras are developed through yoga, but they exist (in a dormant manner before spiritual practices are begun. If we did not have chakras at all we could not sustain a physical body and would have to remain in a higher form. The chakras carry the life force that sustains us.
quote:
And also, people have kundalini awakenings regardless of semen. There are plenty of examples of this all over the place if you look.
You are right. It is not necessary to be celibate, or to practice tantric techniques of semen retention in order for the kundalini to be awakened. But then, I have never heard anyone say that it was. Desire for God, sound spiritual practices and the purification of the body would be enough on their own. Celibacy and tantric practices simply speed the whole process up.
quote:
I beg to differ with the idea that kundalini awakening is dangerous or can be "safer".
Many people have had very serious problems caused by the awakening of kundalini in a manner that was not safe. In fact the internet is full of the stories of these people, many advising everyone not to practice yoga. Just type kundalini into google and about a hundred will come up. Awakening kundalini can be dangerous, and that is one of the reasons I was so adamant in advising people about the importance of sticking to a spiritual system when dealing with these things in this post:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=4564#38930
Kumbhaka (breath retention) and bastrika (bellows breath) are in fact two of the most dangerous pranayama practices and so it is even more important that they are handled safely, within a system of spiritual practices that enables people to work with them properly.
quote:
In Vivekananda's Raja Yoga book, he quotes an ancient text on Raja Yoga in which it is said that very long durations of pranayama breathing and retention cause a person to levitate. So presumably kundalini awakening has nothing to do with levitation, since Vivekananda said he had never seen anybody levitating before.
I have never seen anyone levitate who was not already kundalini awakened.
quote:
I saw a video on Youtube where some guy claimed that because of his kundalini being awakened he could put a piece of paper on the palm of his hand and through sheer concentration could make the paper bend upwards. Sure enough, he could do it. I was mystified by this for awhile because i couldn't understand the relationship between kundalini and this phenomenon other than to put it down to a "siddhi". THat is, until i realised that it had nothing to do with kundalini at all - what he was doing was concentrating his attention on the palm of his hand to heat it up and this is what made the paper bend from the centre so that the edges turned up. In other words, there are people out there, whether they know it or not, who are decieving.
How can you make your hand hot by concentrating on it? Unless your kundalini is awakened and you can direct prana through the subtle body using your mind? If it was as easy as you say then everyone with a bit of concentration could do it.
I don't think it matters much if you think of prana as the movement of energy in the nervous system, or the oxygenation of the blood, or as some as yet to be discovered energy, moving through subtle channels of light in the body. What is really important is that you believe there is something more to human existence than the usual seeking for pleasure (with all the misery it brings) and the madness of living an existence around a person which only has any reality in your own mind.
If you believe this much, and also that you can do something about it by engaging in spiritual practices, then that is enough and will take you to your goal.
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Oct 21 2008 03:04:48 AM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Oct 21 2008 : 09:31:06 AM
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| Really all i can say is that the universe is a mystery and i don't deny people's spiritual experiences. I have come to think that spiritual experiences are not earned and there is nothing a person can do to get them. They just happen by themselves and the matter is completely out of our hands. All i can do is get on with my life and use meditation to relax without expecting to have any spiritual experiences and if they come, so be it but there are no garuantees. |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Oct 21 2008 : 4:41:29 PM
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| I think you are right :-) |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Oct 21 2008 : 9:00:05 PM
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Dear Gumpi,
If science has all the answers to the process of spiritual unfolding then why can't they reproduce the experience in anyone/everyone on demand? I believe they have come a long way but me thinks you give them too much credit. You can't measure gravity yet we all know it exists. There are things yet to be dissected by science and even if they can analyze it there is still putting all the pieces together just right. That is why spiritual practice has so many teachers. What one suggests worked for him and some others but maybe not for many and certainly not for all. It is more an art than a science, yes?
I know what you mean about psychic phenom being random but give it a little while longer at your practice and you may reconsider this point. Mine were random like yours for most of my life but there has been a distinct increase recently in all things magical and I know it comes from my practices. In fact, lately, each day seems more magical than the last.
All the best to you in your quest.
Jill |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2008 : 02:54:42 AM
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Gumpi,
I know that several mediums that I have met, practice Kumbhaka, without being in Yoga, its a way to enhance the ESP powers, and this is very real. I have practiced this time ago (not anymore), cause its dangerous, as one is forcing the heart. But if you want to feel something or get some ESP, just do some Kumbhaka practice for a month, just 5 to 10 minutes, then you'll see. All the people that I know that have some ESP powers practice Kumbhaka, this is not new stuff. The more time you can retain the breath the best are the results. You count the seconds in your mind, up to 10 seconds can be very dangerous.
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Really all i can say is that the universe is a mystery and i don't deny people's spiritual experiences. I have come to think that spiritual experiences are not earned and there is nothing a person can do to get them. They just happen by themselves and the matter is completely out of our hands. All i can do is get on with my life and use meditation to relax without expecting to have any spiritual experiences and if they come, so be it but there are no garuantees.
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2008 : 11:08:42 AM
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I don't know, perhaps spiritual experiences can be brought about with practice but i find it unlikely personally.
I have experienced effortless khumbaka after exhaling for up to 30 seconds just with hong sau meditation. Not pranayama. Neli, what do you mean by "forcing the heart"?
I haven't ever heard of mediums doing pranayama before. Most of them talk about meditation. And getting into either alpha or theta states. I suppose if i want some ESP (which i seem to have a little bit of anyway) i would just use brainwave entrainment to get into theta. The only psychic thing i have experienced consistently is seeing the future in dreams. |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2008 : 11:05:30 PM
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Gumpi
Kumbhaka forces the heart, cause when you retain the air in your plungs, you can have an arrythmia, if it is done for more than 10 or 15 seconds, it depends on the person, but I know that its dangerous.
A lot of mediums that I have met use Pranayama to reach the theta or alpha state (trance) they don't use meditation, its just a tool for the medium to get into trance. Seeing the future in dreams its a real gift! The "rubber" medium practices a lot the Kumbhaka before getting into deep trance, then he make all his performances, like in a circus, but he made also wonderful healings, I saw that, with my very own eyes, getting his hand into a sitter's body as if it were transparent, just to heal the heart or plungs or whatever. Also wonderful materializations. One has to be there to believe. And I'm a very skeptical person.
neli
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
I don't know, perhaps spiritual experiences can be brought about with practice but i find it unlikely personally.
I have experienced effortless khumbaka after exhaling for up to 30 seconds just with hong sau meditation. Not pranayama. Neli, what do you mean by "forcing the heart"?
I haven't ever heard of mediums doing pranayama before. Most of them talk about meditation. And getting into either alpha or theta states. I suppose if i want some ESP (which i seem to have a little bit of anyway) i would just use brainwave entrainment to get into theta. The only psychic thing i have experienced consistently is seeing the future in dreams.
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2008 : 07:40:41 AM
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neli, Gumpi is talking about holding the breath outside, not inside.
I know from my experience that holding the breath outside does cause some vibrations at the root. |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2008 : 10:59:33 PM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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avatar186
USA
146 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2008 : 02:30:06 AM
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prana vibrates, and is made by stimulating the outwards flow.
prana is like a lion that must be tamed.
jade tiger.
siddham vedam.
esp. feel what you see. feel what you hear.
feelings can go, anywere.
it is will power. |
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Propundit
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2008 : 12:02:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
If pranayama causes the kundalini to rise, and pranayama means restraint of air (oxygen) then why not just hold the breath to wake the kundalini?
Aerobic exercise generally gets one out of breath with the long term goal of reducing breathlessness (via hormesis). Yet few would suggest that holding the breath is a good substitute for aerobic exercise. A person interested in fitness would consider many types of exercise, which could have different benefits, different strengths and weaknesses.
In the Chinese representation of Tao, there is yin and yang ... dark/light, relaxation/stimulation, etc. I would suggest that simple relaxation like you propose is nurturing the relaxation/ying, which can be very beneficial for people that are stressed out, anxious, etc. I would further suggest that some practices (like spinal breathing) involve improvements to the ability to switch between yin and yang (or sympathetic vs parasympathetic nerve activity, if you prefer). I find SB to be both incredibly relaxing AND invigorating... it does not cause me to feel drowsy, does not cause me to feel agitated, the result is balance.
Spontaneous rest is restoring - to a degree. Intentional meditation brings about physical changes that can be described as even greater relaxation, it is beneficial above normal rest or sleep (but it cannot substitute for them). Spinal breathing exercises another faculty of the body, which I describe as the regulator between yin and yang, the gate between sympathetic and parasympathetic. |
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role of imagination in SB
