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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 09:51:09 AM
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I think it would be cool if the people who choose to reply would do so first before reading any of the other replies so as to not be invluenced by another poster.
so the question
would you help someone whom you dont feel wants to help themselves?
more then thoughts
Neil
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 11:13:32 AM
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quote:
would you help someone whom you dont feel wants to help themselves?
Yes!
Each of us is whiplashed and paralyzed by an accumulation of conflicts that date to our cradle days and perhaps earlier as well. This causes untold pain for others and suffering within ourselves. Why can't we break free of this logjam?
Theologies offer various answers. What is the first requirement? "You can't change what you don't acknowledge" -- Dr. Phil, on TV. What needs to be acknowledged is first your paralysis. The second task is to understand the nature of this warring within. What is tugging you this way, what is tugging you that way?
The third task is to seek the kind of help or tool that will break the logjam and bring you peace (an end to the warring that is hurting you and stirring up others). As for the helps and tools? Christianity, yoga, buddhism, cognitive-behavioral therapy, psychoanalysis.... you take your pick, you take your chances.
I try to help others become more aware of their paralysis and the forces at play behind it. Is there denial of paralysis and an addiction working here, for example? Maybe from a psychic standpoint people aren't nearly as "free" to choose as they think they are, or others think they are. I would say that most of us at this forum are not "free" people -- I know I'm not! I am a bundle of conflicts. There are at least six billion world wars being waged today on this planet.
Survival is a struggle. Our need is peace within. It is selfless service to give hope to one another as and when we are capable of doing this.
newpov |
Edited by - newpov on Sep 01 2008 11:44:51 AM |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 8:15:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by newpov
quote:
would you help someone whom you dont feel wants to help themselves?
Yes!
Each of us is whiplashed and paralyzed by an accumulation of conflicts that date to our cradle days and perhaps earlier as well. Are you sure that this is true for each and every one of us This causes untold pain for others and suffering within ourselves. Why can't we break free of this logjam? Because we dont let go of attachments to suffering?
Theologies offer various answers. What is the first requirement? "You can't change what you don't acknowledge" -- Is he enlightened and if not does he really know? Dr. Phil, on TV. What needs to be acknowledged is first your paralysis. The second task is to understand the nature of this warring within. What is tugging you this way, what is tugging you that way?
The third task is to seek the kind of help or tool that will break the logjam and bring you peace (an end to the warring that is hurting you and stirring up others). As for the helps and tools? Christianity, yoga, buddhism, Many worship the idol instead of the ideal? cognitive-behavioral therapy, psychoanalysis.... you take your pick, you take your chances.
I try to help others become more aware of their paralysis and the forces at play behind it. Is there denial of paralysis and an addiction working here, for example? Maybe from a psychic standpoint people aren't nearly as "free" to choose as they think they are, or others think they are. I would say that most of us at this forum are not "free" people are you sure of this judgement you have passed? -- I know I'm not! this "knowing" will imit your transcendence? I am a bundle of conflicts. There are at least six billion world wars being waged today on this planet.
Survival is a struggle. Because you believe it is a struggle? Our need is peace within I have peace within and I am expanding in it. It is selfless service to give hope to one another how can you give hope when you dont recognize your own peace within, how can you give hope if you think life must be a struggle and war? as and when we are capable of doing this.
newpov
more then words
Neil |
Edited by - brother neil on Sep 01 2008 9:04:22 PM |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 9:52:52 PM
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Neil,
quote:
Each of us is whiplashed and paralyzed by an accumulation of conflicts that date to our cradle days and perhaps earlier as well. Are you sure that this is true for each and every one of us
Yes. It's why Dr. Karl Menninger wrote his book, Man Against Himself. It's why Freud developed his psychoanalysis. And it's why the Bhagavad Gita is set upon a field of war.
quote:
Our need is peace within I have peace within and I am expanding in it. It is selfless service to give hope to one another...
I haven't gotten to pranayama yet. Perhaps you could use your expanding peace for the good of others through the more advanced practice of samyama? I have only read about that briefly.
quote:
how can you give hope when you dont recognize your own peace within
To my understanding, bhakti and the emergence of hope is a bootstrapping process and still a mystery for everyone. Somehow, though, very imperfect people manage to impart to others hope and willingness to address, and someday win, the war within.
A good example of how unenlightened people pull together to increase bhakti is the organization called Alcoholics Anonymous.
They have a track record of giving hope and wisdom to the desperate or curious newcomer, whose baggage and denial of his problems makes him a very unlikeable fellow indeed. They are a help to this fellow because they have already come to understand, in the most personal terms, the egoic selfishness that afflicts everyone on the planet. They have already glimpsed several dimensions of the war within. They have first-hand knowledge of the newcomer's struggle for survival and control, which is fear driven and instinctually based.
Their honesty about their own lies and their own illusions eventually encourages the newcomer to face the rank dishonesty and many layers of lies in his own life. Old timers in AA, not just Dr. Phil on TV, have always known that you can't change what you don't acknowledge. The goal of AA is a re-vision of oneself. As the newcomer becomes more aware of his war within, and of the cons he has been working on other people, who have seen through not a few of those cons by now, he begins to war less with his fellows. Putting first things first, the battles he fights henceforth are chosen more carefully.
Perhaps the newcomer first showed up only because he was hounded to do so. Perhaps others made unpleasantly clear the disastrous consequences that awaited him if he failed to do something about his conduct, especially his self-pity and "chip on the shoulder" or victim attitudes. Most often the newcomer doesn't think HE needs help—and so he doesn't want it. Doing Step One well can take a very long time. It is no secret that many people attend AA meetings not to change within, but merely to socialize and escape incredible loneliness.
In the better groups--and these are those that work the 12 steps rigorously as laid out in the Big Book (through page 164)--when the newcomer doesn't show up for a meeting, the old timers will call him up to see what is happening with him. Why? They are terrified about what could go wrong in his future. There but the grace of god go I... And so they woo him. This undertaking can be quite delicate because the newcomer is generally a very defensive individual and not especially pliable.
Who can say what brings about their conversion of the newcomer's viewpoint? Maybe all we can say is, informed and very savvy human caring, undertaken within a peer to peer model.
newpov |
Edited by - newpov on Sep 02 2008 12:17:05 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2008 : 01:11:40 AM
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not to show off but yes i would, 1st i'll try to have a direct impact on the guy and will always give it a shot and if that doesn't work then i would simply pray and let him melt in my samyama practice now and then.
namaste,
Ananda |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2008 : 12:34:20 PM
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Neil, and all others reading this:
Could you please practice samyama with me in mind?
I'm caught up in my own conflicts. Even though I have no idea how it works, I believe intercessory samyama on my behalf could help me in my climb.
I'm needing patience, bhakti, and, frankly, a more charitable attitude. In this forum I'm coming across to others as aggresively opinionated and "fundamentalist."
For some reason I hang back in my practices, and I don't know why I'm stuck. My subconscious governs me right now, and I don't know how to beat it.
newpov |
Edited by - newpov on Sep 02 2008 4:22:15 PM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2008 : 4:50:32 PM
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There is absolutely no way you are talking about me.
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2008 : 5:15:36 PM
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Gumpi, I am not talking about you. I am actually talking about us, people in general. Sometimes you help someone who does not seem to want to help themselves. for example. I know someone who takes food to homeless people once a week. He does not ask them to change, does not care that they drink beer, he just figures that if he can make their world brighter for only one momnet he has done something worthy. These homeless people are judged all the time and everyone wants to help them. THe people who want to help them try to force their ideals on the homeless guys. Some of the guys like living on the street. So the person just hangs out with them as equals
In the parrable of the good samaritan, did the samaritan judge the person he helped or tell him what to do, or did the good samaratin just offer compasion without judgement and do what he felt was right at the time.
more than thoughts
Neil
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2008 : 02:33:48 AM
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hmm, help someone who you feel doesn't want to help themselves. Depends on the circumstances I suppose. On what "helping someone" means to you. Seems a very "existentialism" sort of question. The responsibility, the choice, is always our own.
One thing I have learnt, a little too late... sometimes the desire to "fix things" for others, just does the exact opposite.
I mean, in some circumstances, I'll help people see their problems fully. I've told "self cutters" to go on cutting themselves, except to do so with awareness. Most would just say "stop cutting, it's so bad, it's so awful, how can you hurt yourself". And they go on cutting... and they go on hating themselves for it because the world goes on telling them to stop, how awful it is.) Instead I say, keep cutting, but bring awareness to it... they're already doing it anyway, I know they won't stop by my explaining to them why it isn't healthy (it's kinda like smoking... smokers already know it's not healt. Tell a smoker to keep on smoking but with awareness... amazing, in myself, it made me consider quitting even more) again, it really depends on the circumstances though. I've said the above to someone who had been cutting for a few years. It was a pretty ingrained habit by that point. I know it sounds almost sick in a way... I dunno, I used to cut myself, I kinda get where some are coming from with such problems.
Question your intention, on wether it could push the person lower by making them feel bad, or raising them up, raising their self awareness a bit. Don't try to own their problems for them. I've done that one way too much. That whole martyr thing... don't do that. The best thing is usually to do nothing if you're not sure, just to be there for them, and otherwise, just follow your heart.
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2008 : 07:59:03 AM
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hi newpov, i'll put your name in the samyama request list.
quote:
Originally posted by newpov
Neil, and all others reading this:
Could you please practice samyama with me in mind?
I'm caught up in my own conflicts. Even though I have no idea how it works, I believe intercessory samyama on my behalf could help me in my climb.
I'm needing patience, bhakti, and, frankly, a more charitable attitude. In this forum I'm coming across to others as aggresively opinionated and "fundamentalist."
For some reason I hang back in my practices, and I don't know why I'm stuck. My subconscious governs me right now, and I don't know how to beat it.
newpov
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2008 : 09:23:35 AM
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Hi Newpov,
I will do it for you.
Best, yb. |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2008 : 09:48:52 AM
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Newpov, of course I willl offer prayers/samyama to you
you are loved more then you know
I have a couple more questions for you if you dont mind. Could you do me the favor of going back and reading what you wrote, ask yourself if you where thinking through your head or through your heart when you replied. Then rereply using the other. I would be thankful if you did that.
My best to you brother/sister, not sure your gender :)
Neil
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2008 : 09:50:12 AM
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say there is a man who has worn out shoes that hurt his feet. The only place he ever walks which warrent him needing shoes is to the liquor store. Would you buy him shoes anyways?
more than thoughts
Neil
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2008 : 12:20:38 PM
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Neil,
I am a divorced man of 66 with one son of 25. I live in Worcester, Massachusetts. I live in my mind and am manipulated by innumerable emotional forces within my unconscious that I neither perceive nor understand. There must be something more, I say to myself. And I question why I don't reach sufficiently for it....
Shoes for an Alcoholic? I think of the Anthony Quinn movie, Shoes of a Fisherman...
I believe it important to inquire into his values and current goal. Is there some way I can enable his good? Is he a fisherman for meaning and purpose and healthy relationships in life? I would ask the man if he is already curious about or keyed into the yogic quest for identity. If he is, then I would ask if he agrees that alcohol in his neurobiological system is hindering his quest. If he is into none of this, I would give him shoes because that addresses his suffering at the level of his current experience and concern. But if he is already hungry for yoga practice, then I would deny his request for shoes so that he is less enabled in his self-destructive behavior. Maybe hurting feet is conducive to sitting meditation.  I would explain that what I am doing is governed by my decision to honor what I understand to be the foremost concern or priority he has set for his life.
newpov
[an aspirant for a new point of view in life] |
Edited by - newpov on Sep 03 2008 12:32:00 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2008 : 2:00:22 PM
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| What is your practice routine Newpov and how long have you been practicing? |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2008 : 3:18:15 PM
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Shanti,
Only "deep meditation," this for less than 2 weeks. No pranayama yet or any other AYP. I am new to hinduism, and its view of how things cohere appeals to me, so I read the Upanishads now. Perhaps I would be advised to suppress my questions and questionings, at least for the time being?
newpov |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2008 : 4:35:28 PM
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Newpov
I have a couple more questions for you if you dont mind. Could you do me the favor of going back and reading what you wrote, on the questions I posed to you. ask yourself if you were thinking through your head or through your heart when you replied. Then rereply using the other. I would be thankful if you did that.
take care brother
Neil
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2008 : 5:49:19 PM
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about the shoes thing. I believe some people have to hit rock bottom before making it back to the top. Buying the shoes, knowing that he'd go and buy booze, I'd probably do it. I gave money to a slightly drunk bum telling him he could go and get more drunk now. It wasn't exactly from the heart, but... for once, a guy gave him money whilst pointing out his problem. And he just gave me this weird look, kinda flipped his reality around I guess heh.
So I say buy him the shoes, and buy him a nice big bottle of bourbon.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2008 : 6:02:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by newpov
Only "deep meditation," this for less than 2 weeks. No pranayama yet or any other AYP. I am new to hinduism, and its view of how things cohere appeals to me, so I read the Upanishads now. Perhaps I would be advised to suppress my questions and questionings, at least for the time being?
newpov
Well you have just started, and the fact that you are interested is the first biggest step you could take. I am very happy for you.
Spirituality does not really have much to do with any religion... so if you are enjoying those books, please go ahead and read them. If however, you are really looking for answers, read a few simple books to start with. I would recommend "Loving What Is" by Byron Katie, "Autobiography Of A Yogi" by Paramhansa Yogananda, "I am That" by Nisargadatta Maharaj. There are some other good books suggested in this thread: What are you reading?
It takes some time to get used to a New Point Of View... don't be so hard on yourself. Drop judging yourself and drop the concept that "what I know is the final truth".. as you continue on this path.. every concept you have will change.. so let the tight grip on "right" and "wrong" loosen slightly.. This path is not like learning Math.. you cannot get a bunch of books and learn a concept and "get it".. you need to unlearn every concept you have picked up for the past 66 years, and be open to many points of view.
The best thing you can do is meditate like you brush your teeth. You just do it twice a day and forget about it. Don't try to get it with your mind. You will only get more frustrated.
...And question away.. just be open to the answers you receive.. don't dismiss them because they don't match up with what you think the right answer is/should be.
Wish you all the best. |
Edited by - Shanti on Sep 03 2008 6:06:45 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2008 : 12:47:59 PM
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Hi Tubeseeker,
I have not read the other's posts yet, so I may end up writing twice, but I wanted to respond the way you had asked us to...without reading other's responses first....
My answer to your question of whether or not I would help someone who doesn't want to be helped is.."not in the way most people would think of helping." In my opinion you can't help someone else until you have helped yourself. All too often when we approach someone with the intention of helping them we end up helping them in the wrong way and end up with the opposite result we were going for. The reason for this I think is because we end up using this other person as a mirror for ourselves, mostly sub-consciously. We end up picking up on things in the other person that we OURSELVES need to change and often are really just giving ourselves advice by verbalizing it to another. We see all the things in the other person that truely need to be changed within ourselves and often have nothing to do with the other person's dilema at all. So in my opinion the only way to truely help another person is by helping yourself. Heed the advice you would give to another and learn to live the way you think everyone else should be living. This is true for me, and I don't really know if it is true for others but I suspect it is. Learn to help other's by helping yourself. Hope that makes sense and isn't way off base. Please feel free to correct me if I seem way off base. All the best.
Namaste,
CarsonZi |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2008 : 2:27:07 PM
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Carson, in my opinion your post has a lot of truth to it. I also think that is one of the reasons that people do not always trust those who try and help them. The thought of "well if you know so much then why do you have messed up things in your life" I have used others as a mrror my whole life, I accept that. Now I am trying to use a different group as a mirror. Trying to shine my light as bright as I can and trying to be a reflection of everyones brightest light. Do I always succeed, it is my goal. thanks again for your post
my best to you
Neil
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2008 : 3:15:17 PM
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Hi Neil,
Glad you agree. Just FYI though, I wasn't trying to "end" your discussion, or minimize the need for a discussion on such an existential topic. Maybe I am reading your post wrong but your lines...
"I have used others as a mirror my whole life, I accept that. Now I am trying to use a different group as a mirror. Trying to shine my light as bright as I can and trying to be a reflection of everyones brightest light. Do I always succeed, it is my goal."
...read to me like you felt I was trying to thwart the discussion or give you a hard time or something. This was not my intention. Hope I am reading into your post more then was meant. I agree in the need for this forum....in a post just the other day I said that I felt silly often for posting new threads because as I was writing down my question I was answering it for myself. But Yogani assured me that that is the reason for the forum...so that others can benefit from the discussions and thoughts posted. Continue on shining brightly, I often enjoy the advice and thoughts you share on here....may you succeed in your goal always.
Namaste,
CarsonZi |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2008 : 3:20:41 PM
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And I just read through the other posts and laughed very much out loud (literally) at your posting Gumpi. I wish you all the best.
Namaste,
CarsonZi |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2008 : 5:42:24 PM
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Carson, I was just adding my personal thoughts on your comments so yeah, you are reading deeper then what I was thinking I did not pericieve any ill intentions from your original post in this thread brother, just the opposite, I enjoyed it very much
my best
Neil
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2008 : 11:04:47 PM
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| Good I was hoping that was the case. All the best in your spiritual aspirations |
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