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machart
USA
342 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 4:16:19 PM
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newpov....I like these two quotes from Gandhi:
"Hate the sin, love the sinner."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress."
Mahatma Gandhi |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 4:31:44 PM
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From the book "Alcohol Anonymous," page 568:
"Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts...
"Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery..." |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 4:55:24 PM
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| OK..I surrender, you win the quote contest...I don't have that book. |
Edited by - machart on Sep 01 2008 5:40:00 PM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 5:19:13 PM
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newpov, i appreciate your input, but you come across to me as fundamentalist. I am sorry to say that and i don't mean offence.
M, i love you!
Seriously, i do not agree that "scenery" is legitimate. this is the part of Yogani's teachings i simply cannot agree with. If you want to disagree by all means do so but then don't please turn around and say i have a problem with drink when you have a problem with scenery. I simply do not buy this argument.
Again, i am not here to argue. |
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Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 6:35:24 PM
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Hi gumpi,
I've been watching this thread from the sidelines, since our initial exchange on the question of the reality of matter.
I sense that a part of you hopes that certain spiritual stuff is true, but that your logical, scientific, rational, reasoning intellect is telling you to demand a verbal, logically convincing, objective argument that proves to your intellectual satisfaction, beyond any doubt, that the spiritual things you hope exist really do exist.
If you decide that spirituality does not exist, and that only matter exists ... then ... if you subsequently discover that the point of view that only matter exists does not satisfy you ... what would that suggest to you?
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 7:15:36 PM
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| Personally I don't think that the REAL question you are looking for an aswer to Gumpi is whether or not it is possible to have progress as a yogi and still imbibe in a few drinks. What I think you are actually asking is how to instill and maintain enough Bhakti to have the desire to practice twice daily as perscribed by Yogani. Am I right in that? |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 7:53:58 PM
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Yes, Carsonzi, I agree - bhakti is the base issue,
but alcohol in the nervous system undercuts even the little bhakti that may be present in gumpi, and so desire to meditate is trumped by desire to leave drinking patterns undisturbed...
chicken egg. Meanwhile life slips into more and more chaos...
It is probably unlikely that paralysis can be shaken off until the fact of paralysis is acknowledged. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 9:37:48 PM
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I just think we should leave the alcohol thing alone. It's seems to me like things are getting a bit accusitory and that is really the opposite of MY perspective on things here. I don't want to accuse Gumpi or anyone else of being an alcoholic. I am the LAST person that should be pointing fingers at someone for intaking too many substances or too regularly drinking or whatever. Each one of us has a different purification process here and noone has an absolute answer as to the limits of AYP nor the limits of ourselves. So if a few drinks isn't getting in the way for one person the way it might for another, so be it. All the more testimony to the power of AYP. But the question still remains: How can one instill and then maintain enough Bhakti to follow through with the twice daily meditations of AYP? Personally I think that one has to first go on a little bit of faith and curiosity if nothing else. Give the practices sufficient time to draw a firm conclusion. If at that point you aren't getting the "scenery" you desire, or whatever your personal reason for trying AYP isn't being fulfilled, then...so be it. Maybe it's time to persue something different. Everyone is different. Maybe AYP ISN'T for everyone? At least not for everyone at this specific moment?
Namaste,
CarsonZi |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 11:18:17 PM
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Hi Newpov,
quote:
but alcohol in the nervous system undercuts even the little bhakti that may be present in gumpi, and so desire to meditate is trumped by desire to leave drinking patterns undisturbed...
I think that Gumpi has a lot of Bhakti. OK, So he is not Ramakrishna. But neither am I and neither are you. Just to be pursueing AYP is is indicative that a person has more than the average bear's share.
We could be doing alot of other things with our lives.
Best, yb. |
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sushman
India
86 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2008 : 07:35:33 AM
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(1) Gumpi, venting these frustations, you have chosen to attend to your pain or whatever is bothering you. that is a very good thing. You are probably in denial now. I am sure you will move to the acceptance stage and new doors will open for you.
Our bhakti goes through low and up cycle and I guess you are on the low cycle now. it will pass.
It is very natural to get frustrated when you see all the postings of BLISS, KUNDALINI fireworks, etc . Our ego makes us think that we are special (or chosen one) and we are much better than others and so we should have experienced more than what others have experienced. Particularly, it will be perflexing or frustrating when you hear a newbie claiming big progress in the site. I have been frustrated myself earlier. I had thought that regular practices does not matter and somehow I will get enlightened because I read so much or think spiritually than others that I meet everyday. After coming to this forum, i realized its not so.
Everyone's neural system is different and some may be carrying loads of positive karma from previous births. Even having spiritual tendency needs loads of positive karma from previous births.
Do I know this for facts?. NO. But I believe in it as there is no other possible explanation for this. Also, my instinct agrees with this logic.
(2) Myself, I have been on and off of spiritual practices. I started AYP couple of years back and i was getting good results (less anger, peace, etc) while I was doing once a day routine. i never could do twice daily. But I dropped it off soon due to hectic work. Now I am doing Isha yoga (www.ishayoga.org) once a day though they also prescribe twice daily :)
I have automatic movements all the time (in AYP and other yoga practices). Nowadays I am experiencing lots of eye spasms (squeezing out eyes towards my thirdeye). I have experienced automatic yoga postures in some yoga practices. Other than this, i have not yet experienced Kundalini or ecstatic conductivity though I have some felt some cool energy or fluid movements between my two chakras once. unfortfunately, i had not been regular with the practices earlier and could not make further progress.
Over the years, i have taken up Amaroli (for last six months or so), become a vegetarian (3 years), on and off on alcohol (now a teetotaler for last six months) and have become more compassionate towards other beings. Now, I have started tantra masturbation also.
(3) Recently, I had a suffering and started questioning god 'why me?' and started blaming god for my suffering. Later, i accepted the pain and I feel great now. I think I had an opening after the suffering. As people say, there is no better teacher than suffering or pain. It toughens you up and brings you to the present moment. I feel great now.
I suggest you need accept the situation rather than denying it. Because you can't change what is now. (I have tried and failed miserably many times and it has been my biggest learning). Once you accept it, you will transcend it and you will experience peace and joy in what is.
I also strongly feel that we experience 'things' when its the right time. you can call it fate if you want. I can't explain why I am not able to pursue the practices diligently though I have lot of bhakti.
(4) your qn - how do you offer devotion to God and have no expectations at the same time?
Its a good question and anybody will have it. I am in peace with god now what he has bestowed me. I don't think we can reach there (devotion without expectations) in one leap nor even understand it. I think it will be a gradual progress. i get the glimpses of it now and then and its so joyful. I don't anyone can teach you this...only you have to experience I guess.
(5) I think you need to figure out what exactly you want. is it enlightment, or better life, etc? or you looking for a proof that yoga delivers goods?
you need to set your goal, have faith in the practice, do the practice and let it work its magic. Most masters have said that expectation is the biggest roadblock. So, drop your expectations for sometime and see how it works.
Osho said 'things' happened to him when he dropped all his expectations.
I would also suggest you to read 'Power of now' by Eckhart Tolle. Its a very powerful book during these situations. It helped me.
I am sure this is all part of the drama that we all go through and you will overcome this obstacle quite soon.
ALL THE BEST, Gumpi !
PS> When you are at peace or presence, you will start focussing (or seeing) the positives of all things rather than the negatives (even this thread) and laugh or cry spontaneously ... these days I am smiling/laughing more :) .... But i still have to work a lot at my anger or rage almost everyday. still long way to go. But I am confident that i will get there. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2008 : 08:02:24 AM
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Yes, i agree completely with sushman; study that post closely.
If you are trying to "get" something from Yoga other than God or peace, you are wasting your time.
The rest is just scenery. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2008 : 12:51:50 PM
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Hi Sushman, of course everything you have said is correct. My nature ever since i was a kid was impatience. That probably accounts for a lot of my frustration.
I have read Tolle and i think it is garbage.
Of course i disagree that certain spiritual experiences are merely scenery. That is the problem with AYP in my opinion. The idea that living life now despite spirituality is the polar opposite of spirituality.
I am not so frustrated any more in any case. I know there are things i need to change and improve and i will get some experiences. I don't have a lack of spiritual experiences by any lack of imagination. I have plenty, just not in meditation.
I'm reading a really good book at the moment called "spiritual brain : a neuroscientist's case for the existence of the soul". It takes on the "new" atheists and gives evidence that mystical states have a scientific basis in fact. I recommend the book highly. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2008 : 12:59:35 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
When you say: "I know there are things i need to change and improve and i will get some experiences. I don't have a lack of spiritual experiences by any lack of imagination. I have plenty, just not in meditation." It sounds like you are right where you should be! The measure of the effectiveness of AYP is not in the experiences you have DURING meditation (as meditation sessions are different every time) but in the experiences you have after and between meditations. And as you say, you have no lack of that! So that is GREAT! AYP IS working. Just not the way you want it to. But AYP's effectiveness is not judged in how well it works according to the way you want it to, but how well it works in what it was designed to do. And that is to change who we are OUTSIDE of meditation. It seems silly to me to be loking for experiences in meditation here at AYP when that is totally not what AYP claims to do! Just some food for thought. All the best Gumpi!
In Love,
CarsonZi |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 09 2008 2:02:13 PM |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2008 : 1:41:14 PM
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| I'm enjoying this thread. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2008 : 9:27:45 PM
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You have to develop bhakti; devotion and faith in your highest ideal, and put that before experiences, to the point of forgetting or not caring about experiences. It's ironic because it actually increases the experiences.
But if you don't put bhakti first, then you will go through periods of frustration and despair and sadness, and all kinds of negative emotions and things going wrong in your life. At least that's what happens with me.
It's because the bhakti gives you a higher purpose in life.
When you try to apply reason to yoga, you are locking yourself into a lower purpose in life.
It is not because you are trying to imagine something that is not real.
It is because the mind that is reasoning is trying to perform an act that it cannot perform.
Yoga experiences come from bypassing the reasoning functions of the mind, and so in an effort to keep you from doing that, the mind tells you it is all nonsense, and backs that up with reason.
It's like a drug addict reasoning that the drug is the only thing that makes him feel good, therefore there could be absolutely no reason to give up the drug. His reasoning is perfectly sound as he steadfastly destroys himself.
The mind operates in much the same way. It connects with the drug of ego, and together they convince you that meditation couldn't possibly have any merit. They examine every possible aspect and come to what they think is such an obvious conclusion that there is nothing to it. And so a prolonged effort of twice daily practices is not sustained.
Then the ego triumphs and says "I have reached a conclusion; the proof has been found!"
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Edited by - Etherfish on Sep 10 2008 06:29:28 AM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2008 : 07:08:13 AM
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Hi gumpi,
quote:
I have read Tolle and i think it is garbage.
LOL! That is what I did when I read your statement, anyways. Thanks for the belly laugh. I almost fell out of my chair. And you know it isn't garbage. 
quote:
If you are trying to "get" something from Yoga other than God or peace, you are wasting your time.
From my point of view, Ether, any motivation a person has is legal and will get results with Yoga. Milarepa, the great tibetan yogi, undertook Yoga in order to gain powers so he could kill his enemies. But his Bhakti evolved and his motivations changed with it.
quote:
Carsonzi: So that is GREAT! AYP IS working. Just not the way you want it to.
Or think it should.
Best, yb. |
Edited by - yogibear on Sep 10 2008 6:32:31 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2008 : 07:27:32 AM
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i agree YB; I used to follow Yogananda. His lessons say that you should not follow yoga because nothing else works, or because you hate the world. I argued that my only strong motivation is that nothing else works, and so I'm ignoring Yogananda and using it. Eventually i developed a strong bhakti. Yogananda was wrong. so often we need to take in information, but decide what is true for ourselves and forge our own path.
PS about Tolle; I think gumpi is serious about it being rubbish, aren't you gumpi? If you analyze from a purely logical perspective, a lot of spirituality can be seen that way. For instance, scientists can't create life, so they posit that it is really nothing; that it godlessly springs up from primordial ooze as a result of logic or something. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Sep 11 2008 07:32:44 AM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2008 : 1:15:44 PM
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Hi Ether,
Yes, assuming that everything that comes out of the mouths of authoritative spiritual personalities is universal truth has thrown me off track in the past.
Maybe Gumpi is serious. Well, I am just glad I didn't have any coffee in my mouth when I read his statement. It revealed to me how much I take it for granted that everyone couldn't help but have a positive opinion ET like me.
Best, yb.
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2008 : 7:47:13 PM
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quote:
I have read Tolle and i think it is garbage.
I weigh in with gumpi.
Non-dualist enlightenment after reading this fellow in the bathtub? Not likely. I skimmed POWER OF NOW, a few beautiful words certainly, but nothing there about neurobiology. Isn't Tolle just another head trip?
Where is his passion? I'd rather read bhakti masters like Ramakrishna or Rolle--there would be some chance you can actually be MOVED by such people.
The guy may come across like a realized master, and some of the writing uses beautiful images; but like all authors who mine the current non-dualist fad, Tolle offers no ladder to climb. No technique, no method.
I rejoice that some offer ladders of yogic practice for us common folk. Does Tolle know how shortage of air can elicit a mysterious energy from within?
newpov |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2008 : 8:27:31 PM
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| Well he is very popular so he must resonate with certain people. I have a friend who has always ended the subject of spirituality quickly when we talked, but became interested in Tolle on her own and told me about it one day. Different people on different paths, and different stages in life. |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2008 : 09:00:51 AM
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Hi Newpov,
For a couple years before I found AYP, I studied ET and I derived alot of clarification in some areas and he was very helpful to me.
Like Ether said, he has played and is playing his part in introducing alot of people to spirituality.
I think that ET speaks at least from the level of dispassion. I think that you can learn discrimination from him. But I agree with you that his teaching is flawed because of its incompleteness. It is only the third rung on the ladder of self inquiry, to me.
A person needs deep meditation as well as self inquiry during the day to facilliate the rise of the witness.
But if a person takes him at face value and nothing more, they can benefit. I find it useful as a habit in daily living and what he is teaching is basically the "not this, not this" found in Yogani's Self Inquiry book. I was reading it earlier this morning and was thinking how this was written by a guy who has been thru this and understands it very thoroughly from experience.
There is much more to spiritual growth, as you say, than "not this not this" during daily living. Yogani's book gives the necessary big picture, the self inquiry ladder, to keep it all in proper perspective.
Best, yb.
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 10:34:42 PM
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I have come to believe that too much reading of others experiences and theories tends to distort what your own path should be.
"Painted cakes do not satisfy hunger". ...BHN
Do your practices and be guided from within seems to make the most sense ... I think this is consistent with AYP, Yes?...(apologies to Yogani for using his patented answer with a question writing style)
Now ..... if I could only practice what I preach.... |
Edited by - machart on Sep 18 2008 12:07:40 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 18 2008 : 12:11:25 AM
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| I find it funny that you made you point about not coloring your path with reading about other's path's too often by quoting someone else's book. Just made me laugh. |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Sep 18 2008 : 3:07:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogibear
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I think that ET speaks at least from the level of dispassion. I think that you can learn discrimination from him. But I agree with you that his teaching is flawed because of its incompleteness. It is only the third rung on the ladder of self inquiry, to me.
A person needs deep meditation as well as self inquiry during the day to facilliate the rise of the witness.
Best, yb.
Is it possible that ET understand that he is not everything and therefore he is complete, completely who he is, where he is, when he is? If you have an example of a "complete" I would like to meet that person. i personally believe ET serves a very valuable purpose, he speaks to those who only want to listen. He is helping to raise consciousness who may not wish to meditate, or maybe he helps to raise some peoples consciousness and this prepares them for meditation. I am greatful for him, just the way he is
also, is it possible that we only need what we think we need? IMO often times we speak in absolutes when there is but one absolute and that is ONE, the ONE, the ONE and only the thing that made this all possible. If your faith is strong enough you may not need meditation. It was said that budha gave a sermon and he held up a flower. Supposedly he said something like "if your could see the miracle of a single flower your whole life would change" At that moment a person in the crowd became enlightened.
I am not saying meditation is not useful or highly recommended, but maybe some need it and some dont. If we are already that which we seek then what do we really need to do. I believe jesus said "humility is the key to the kingdom of God" what if you have two people, one is very humble, the other arrogant but meditates every day and is proud of his meditation, who will find "it"? However if you have a third who is humble and meditates I would have put my money on that guy ;) I think we can suggest, tell others what has helped us, etc... but I think when we start saying someone "needs" to do this or that we put ourselves in the position to speak false words
Dont know that much of what I say is original, maybe some of it is wrong too, I completely accept that, I am thankful to the teachers, and without the ONE I would not be here
I am love, I am joy, I am peace,and so are you
I am neil |
Edited by - brother neil on Sep 18 2008 3:26:10 PM |
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bunch of stuff
