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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 3:00:58 PM
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Gumpi,
I don't think anyone here is upset. We are all here to help you. That's it. You think I enjoy arguing a point with someone that they don't want to see? No. But I DO care about the state of everyone I interact with's spirituality and hence I will continue to argue a dead arguement with you. You have now pointed out (and quite sorely I might add) that you do not practice regularly. But you also say that you practice enough. That is a contradiction. The only way that you "practice enough" is if you are spending at least 20 minutes twice daily in Deep Meditation. If you aren't committed to doing that, then you ARE here just for a good arguement. Until you give the AYPractices a FAIR chance (that means following the lessons long enough to know whether or not it makes a difference.) And that may take several months of DEDICATED twice daily practices. Especially if you are throwing more "dirt on the windshield" with the daily consumption of a "few cans". And you still didn't mention if it was AYP you've been practicing for 7 years or what or style of meditation have you been using? How long did you spend trying AYPractices, disregarding the other styles of meditation you may have practiced? As I said and Yogibear quoted:
quote:
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CarsonZi:
You want the evidence of the fruits of meditation but are not willing to accept anothers account as verifiable, yet you aren't willing to go through the proper effort required to make the connection personally that will give you the evidence you look for. None of us can convince you or anyone else of the effects of AYP, only your own personal practice can do that. And that is why there is a real lack of "questioning" on this forum. Because the majority of the people posting on here have been trying the practice religiously and long enough to be able to see our own tangible evidence of improvements in our daily lives just the way Yogani said it would happen.
Noone is "jumping all over you", you kinda projected that onto us. We are here to help because we care about you. Honestly. I wouldn't spend this much time answering what to me is a silly arguement if I didn't. And by the way, take a look at how meticulously some people have taken the time to actually answer in detail EVERY one of your questions in your initial post. But you won't spend the time necessary to answer each one? Maybe you don't really care about the answers and are "just looking for an arguement". Everything points to that.
Namaste,
CarsonZi |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Aug 29 2008 3:07:16 PM |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 3:45:54 PM
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gumpi,
First, you gratify the senses by imbibing several cans daily without fail.
Second, you turn an able mind to challenge, disputation and debate, thus stirring up others rather than stilling yourself.
And third, you see no need for daily meditation.
Compare your current approach with the Katha Upanishad:
The Self cannot be known by anyone who desists not from unrighteous ways,
controls not his senses,
stills not his mind, and
practices not meditation.
You assign alcohol a higher daily priority than meditation--yet refuse to acknowledge your alcoholism. Does pride hold you back? What, then, can you possibly hope to get out of yoga and this site?
Does the quest for identity and meaning and purpose concern you, and if it does, what are you willing to do about it on a daily basis?
newpov |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 5:50:56 PM
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Just a general point for everyone on the forum -- stuff you don't like can often just be ignored. Just like at a bar, at a football match, or at dinner at your inlaws. 
Often ignoring is best because sometimes stirring it up can be just a form of unconscious attention-seeking, and answers can fan the flames. Of course, things are never entirely simple. So maybe try ignoring the aspect that is fruitful to ignore, and answering the aspect that isn't. Be most helpful to yourself, as well as those who ask you questions.
Just some advice.
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 8:56:09 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
I don't consider myself qualified to give you spiritual advice, but would like to wish you all the best on finding your own path to truth and stillness. |
Edited by - machart on Aug 29 2008 9:50:14 PM |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2008 : 10:31:55 PM
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I can appreciate that people may do what they do and I would not fault you for choosing to drink. I would just say be aware that the AYP practices and yoga practices in general are kind of opposite of alchohol. Yoga is meant to renew your nervous system, restore your senses, restore you to the creator, etc... Alchohol dulls the senses, dulls the mind, etc.... so meditation and alchohol are opposites I think. does that mean one cannot drink and find what they seek? I cant judge that, but personally myself I would not have more a few drinks a month if I were to drink at all. But this is your path and I wish you the best on it.
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 12:02:00 AM
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| My medical doctor has recommended that I drink 2 alcoholic drinks a day. Meditation and alcohol are not opposites....judgement and meditation are opposites....I think. |
Edited by - machart on Aug 30 2008 04:22:09 AM |
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atena
113 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 01:34:47 AM
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Hi Gumpi,
I'm not an expert at this, but I have had similar issue with deep meditation not working too well.
The problem I had (and maybe still do, havent decided) was that there were too many 'energetic blockages' (sorry, I dont know if this is the correct term for this) which prevented from getting too good results with deep meditation.
AYP doesnt seem address the 'energetic blockages' in the most direct way. You will probably get better results with some other system which does that.
I'm not saying here that AYP doesn't work, just that for some of use something else might work better in this particular situation.
A Heilkunst practicioner (Heilkunst is a system which includes homeopathic remedies) has helped me significantly with my problem.
also, EFT (emotional freedom techniques) might help with that, or homeopathy, or TAT (The Tapas Acupressure Technique) haven't tried that yet, but seems to be like EFT.
My experience is that after you get even a bit of those blockages cleared (it might require some time to do that), the deep meditation will go significantly deeper.
Sorry, my text might be a bit messy. I need some sleep... 
Anwyways, I hope you'll find what you seek, even if you dont take this advice. It actually might be that this isn't the right one :) |
Edited by - atena on Aug 30 2008 04:22:09 AM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 02:19:59 AM
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Hi Gumpi,
quote:
And no, there were many things i asked that haven't been answered yet.
When I read your original post, Gumpi, my first thought was that your questions can only be answered by your own direct experience. How can I say to you that the things you questions are truths. What good is that for you? Well, maybe the testimony of others can help a little. But, ultimately, once you experience them for your self you don't need any testimony from anyone.
They will fuel your bhakti. The problem it seems right now is to have enough bhakti to enable you to practice enough so that you can have the experiences that will create even more bhakti.
The questions you ask don't have intellectual answers. The real answers are experiential.
32 years ago, I had an experience of many of the things you question. It has been a dry spell since, comparatively speaking. During this experience I perceived my heart so clearly and it was beautiful. I could feel each chamber contract and relax in perfect coordination, like a galloping horse. A favorite yoga book, Yoga and Health explained that the first goal of a Hatha Yogi is to completely animate their body and that means, at least in part, that they can clearly sense each part. The second step is to subjegate the now perceptable body parts to their will and bring their normally autonomic function under conscious control. This is as much as I know about it directly. You can read the book if you want.
It was interesting because my perceiving my heart to that degree of clarity happened rather suddenly, like a light switch turning on. This happened twice, one evening and then the following evening. I have also felt my diaphragm and my lungs. This occured one time about a year later and it started, again, just like a light switch turning on. In fact it occured while performing the seated forward bend in a yoga class and lasted for several hours. It was fascinating.
Nothing like it since. Never figured out where the switch is.
The one major experience was enough to know that I can never stop pursueing the path of yoga.
How could I do anything else?
But the other minor experience that occur, energy type things, more and more letting go, and also my evolving perception of myself are a continual source of motivation.
Shanti pointed out these types of things you have experienced.
As Tube says, alcohol deadens the very nerve centers that Yoga aims to animate.
And also, people who have these types of ability are like athletes who have trained religiously for years and decades to earn their stripes.
Spinal breathing is a skill, just like some type of athletic skill.
Yogani is a case in point. 40 years of practice. Of course, I can't speak for Yogani's abilities. But I like the way he thinks, and I think it results from deep insight born from direct experience.
Every body's karma is different. Look at Saint Francis. He was a big partier but then he woke up and totally changed his ways.
quote:
I said i have meditated on and off already. So that means i haven't practiced every day. The point is that i have done enough to come to the conclusions i have already.
Is this really a true statement?
quote:
I don't believe it is neccesary to meditate every single day. Others may disagree with this but so what.
I guess it depends on what your goals are.
Well, just some more thoughts, for whatever they are worth to you.
Best, yb.
PS. Looking at it this morning, it is a mistake to call the letting go and evolving sense of self minor things. What I mean is that there haven't been any big bangs since the first one. I value these things greatly. But I do like the fireworks, too. You know, come to think of it, I could use a little more fireworks. But they only come with the DM, SB and SI. I.E., dedicated practice.
I accept the fact that "sometimes you have to mine a ton of dirt to find an ounce of gold." I take pleasure in the mining. |
Edited by - yogibear on Aug 30 2008 3:49:50 PM |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 1:35:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by machart
My medical doctor has recommended that I drink 2 alcoholic drinks a day. Meditation and alcohol are not opposites....judgement and meditation are opposites....I think.
does your medical doctor have experience in the deeper realms of meditation? and I dont know about you but I hold the scince of meditation, ygoa, etc... far superior then modern medicine. Yes, I still do pass judgement on certain things, I am ok with that. I do believe alchohol and meditation are not the greatest of companions, now once you get beyond, into a deeper realm, you may be able to drink all you want and it will no longer have an effect on you.
my best to you
Neil
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 2:48:07 PM
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Tube...My point was moderation in all things...This whole thread had become so judgemental ... several commenters telling Gumpi ...'Oh you can't be a yogi if you drink alcohol!'...I thought I was on a Southern Baptist forum instead of AYP.
My experience is that as you do the practices your bad habits tend to die down and eventually you find out what is right for yourself ... the key is to keep doing the practices. Then everyone can evolve at their own rate according to their own bhakti. |
Edited by - machart on Aug 30 2008 3:49:45 PM |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 3:01:23 PM
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I can appreciate the thoght of moderation in somethings, but not all. I would not want to do cocaine in moderation, I would not want people to murder in moderation, there are many more htings I would not think is good even in moderation. I would not want to cut my hand off in moderation I can appreciate your view on how this thread has become, I agree with you there. However using a medical doctor as a form of proof??? I guess to each his own |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 3:40:47 PM
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Hi all,
quote:
'Oh you can't be a yogi if you drink alcohol!'
To the extent you wreck your nervous system with alcohol, yoga is impossible.
quote:
I thought I was on a Southern Baptist forum instead of AYP.
Baptists oppose drinking because it leads to immoral conduct.
Yogis oppose drinking because drinking has been found to block effective functioning of the nervous system upon which practice depends.
Alcoholics have NO DESIRE to disturb their drinking patterns.
They say, "Things are fine, my problem is under control..." but their lives are marked by anger, resentment, and breathtaking selfishness. Their postings are as chaotic as their lives.
They sacrifice good activities and relationships rather than confront the desire that rules them. And so commitments to these things become less firm. "I meditate whenever I feel like it" becomes "Why should I meditate if it's doing nothing for me?"
And then it becomes, amazingly,
quote:
perhaps your insistence on selfless service is misplaced.
"You can't change what you don't acknowledge" -- Dr. Phil
newpov
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Edited by - newpov on Aug 30 2008 10:27:58 PM |
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matangi
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2008 : 11:20:25 PM
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Hi gumpi -
For one, I like your honesty. Not easy thoughts/feelings you shared but your truth in that moment at least. That takes guts by my way of thinking.
You ask about Grace, as in the grace of God. I have recently reopened myself to divine grace and maybe that is part of the key. Those moments of humbling and lifting underneath the blanket of disillusion and disenchantment. Is it possible you are here for some reason?
In the beginning (age 8 or so) these questions (who am I? why am I here? if not here, where?) fueled my desire to connect more to intangible than tangible. Do you remember when it all started for you?
Though simple, I do think these basic considerations matter. And science and knowledge are important. You, and everyone posting here, exemplify what Yogani states again and again: Everyone has a different purification process. So, you'd like to trade in your model for something glitzier? Something with more lights and color? Me too at times.
And last but not least....you asked:
How do people have devotion to God and no expectations at the same time?
That is such a good question. I wish I had an answer that would truly do your question justice. Eckhart Tolle says that we all have teachers and for many of us it is pain and sorrow.
For me, like others, that has been true. But over and over again I've decided not to allow pain to define me. Unlike you, I am into joy. Pleasure is secondary. Nothing wrong with either of us I'm guessing. Simply a difference in the way our nervous system happens to be arranged.
One night before sleep after moments of silent deep gratitude I felt this sucking from within my core going out of the top of my head.....and I thought "I want to know THAT" - and for the first time I truly understood the use of the word THAT. A moment of grace.
Wishing you the grace you seek.
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 11:37:43 AM
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gumpi,
Alcohol undercuts spiritual commitment and diligence. Grace cannot occur without deeds, which are the expression of sufficient bhakti.
Alcoholics want gratification and something for nothing. They're after the instead high or the instant relief from frustration.
The choice for everyone who drinks remains this: "Perennial joy or passing pleasure?" -- Katha Upanishad
If you have already chosen death, then a rush by others to save you is probably futile.
newpov |
Edited by - newpov on Aug 31 2008 12:43:07 PM |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 1:19:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by newpov
gumpi,
Alcohol undercuts spiritual commitment and diligence. Grace cannot occur without deeds, which are the expression of sufficient bhakti.
Alcoholics want gratification and something for nothing. They're after the instead high or the instant relief from frustration.
The choice for everyone who drinks remains this: "Perennial joy or passing pleasure?" -- Katha Upanishad
If you have already chosen death, then a rush by others to save you is probably futile.
newpov
Fortunately for all of us newpov's understanding of grace is totally wrong.
Grace is God granting favor without regard to merits!
(Christian theology) the free and unmerited favor or beneficence of God; "God's grace is manifested in the salvation of sinners"; "there but for the grace of God go I"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Think I will have a drink and a cigar on the deck tonight with some friends, pondering this beautiful concept...and maybe by God's grace a hummingbird will visit my new bird feeder.... |
Edited by - machart on Aug 31 2008 2:57:56 PM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 4:58:55 PM
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Hello Machart, thank you for your encouragement and comments. Thanks also to everyone else.
I believe, personally, that grace is the product of things out of our control. I don't want to seek after something that promises nothing for my efforts and when i am not seeking gives freely. That doesn't strike me as just.
And i agree with machart where he says this forum sounds more like a fundamentalist ideal. I don't want anything to do with that kinds of thing.
I don't have the patience nor the capability to respond to every post in this thread i have made. Carson, in particular, you come across as almost demanding that i respond to everything and i am a human being without the ability to do that. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 5:39:38 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
Don't mistake a few posts from different people as to the efficacy of AYP....AYP works for a lot of people, including me. People just have different opinions and viewpoints and that is what makes the world so interesting. |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 6:37:58 PM
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gumpi,
[quote]At most all i get is a slight feeling of relaxation.[quote]
Do you want to settle for Benson's "relaxation response” or do you want something greater?
[quote]I'm interested in the role grace plays in Yoga. [quote]
As I understand things, we must be willing to climb the mountain a good distance without companions or gratification or scenery. As diligence and commitment become clear to the divine within, and this can take a long time in human terms, I understand that what you might call “grace” breaks through. According to Easwaran:
"Until now we have been making all the effort in our climb. But from now on we feel an unseen power drawing us from above, guarding us against the dangers of the precipitous ascent. This grace does not come from any external power. We have shown our dedication, purified our effort; now the Lord of Love, the Divine Mother within, begins to draw us to her, infusing our limited will with hers, which is infinite."
newpov |
Edited by - newpov on Aug 31 2008 6:46:43 PM |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2008 : 7:37:24 PM
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gumpi,
Climb with me. Let us meet at the summit?
newpov |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 01:42:24 AM
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Dear Gumpi,
Perhaps I can help. Please let me use a metaphor. You would not want to drive a golf ball 100 yards with a feather, nor would you want to weigh that feather with a bathroom scale. The tools must be right for the job. It is like the difference between gross motor skills and fine motor skills. You don't play a violin with a hammer. But you also wouldn't go bowling with a ping pong ball.
You might notice that people who drink a lot, etc. are, what you might call robust and they pride themselves on that fact. But would you want to hand an intoxicated person your most precious infant child? On the other hand you might enjoy their help to fight off an attacker.
We have 2 wonderful intelligences, the one with which you are most familiar and another not so apparent. The first is good for rational thought, we wouldn't get far without it, would we? The second intelligence is more subtle and needs certain conditions to surface in your consciousness and become accessible and helpful.
Many before you have questioned whether this other intelligence even exists. Especially if the very definition of consciousness is defined as the one we know so well, the "I" or self.
You wouldn't be here if you weren't wanting something in your life besides those few cans of beer. Once you have a little exposure to that which Yogani calls Silence or Stillness you then become guided from within... well you will have to see that for yourself.
I sincerely hope you will know and see in this very lifetime.
Love to all,
Jill
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 09:59:51 AM
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Hi Gumpi,
quote:
And i agree with machart where he says this forum sounds more like a fundamentalist ideal. I don't want anything to do with that kinds of thing.
I can't agree. This forum is very liberal and open minded. So much so in fact, that it allows the expression of individuals who's writing might have a fundamentalist tone. Maybe that is what you really meant? Maybe not. I don't know.
The limit on alcohol is purely practical and a personal decision. In fact, there is no limit. Yoga does not tell you that you can't drink. It doesn't say you are going to hell for drinking alcohol. It is just saying that the more you drink, the less progress you will make.
Pure and simple.
I think the responses you got were all motiviated by a desire to help, regardless of how fundamentalist the tone may have been in some cases.
The best piece of advice my teacher ever gave me was, "Feel free."
"Really? You mean I can do whatever I want?  Phew, OK. I didn't know that." (I was kind of block headed back then. You know when this yoga stuff starts going into a person's brain, it can get all mixed up with what is already in there )
"Yes, but don't forget there are consequences to everything you do. You have to decide what consequences you really want."
So, I just mention that because I thought you might agree with his thinking, too. You are going to do what you are going to do, anyway. If you want more progress in Yoga, drink less beer. Simple enough. And as Yogani says, the desire for alcohol will drop away naturally, sooner or later on its own, if you just keep practicing.
emc, bingo.
Best, yb. |
Edited by - yogibear on Sep 01 2008 11:22:48 PM |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 10:43:50 AM
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quote:
And as Yogani says, the desire for alcohol will drop away naturally, sooner or later on its own, if you just keep practicing.
Would this be another way of saying the same thing?
"Look, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me, to repay everyone as their deeds deserve." -- Revelation 22:12
deeds: daily AYP practices?
reward: gradual weaning from an addiction to alcohol?
newpov |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 11:21:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogibear
The limit on alcohol is purely practical and a personal decision. In fact, there is no limit. Yoga does not tell you that you can't drink. It doesn't say you are going to hell for drinking alcohol. It is just saying that the more you drink, the less progress you will make.
Pure and simple.
Best, yb.
Since I still drink moderately, I can't tell anyone to "stop drinking for maximum progress in yoga". So I assume that all commenters suggesting absolutely no alcohol are teetotallers and that is fine with me. For people that are vegetarian that is fine with me, I'm omnivorous. For people practicing celibacy that is fine with me, I have a very fulfilling sex life with my wife.
However I would like to see the scientific studies that indicate that zero alcohol is optimum for maximum progress in yoga...or is this something I must just believe on faith or dogma?
There are lots and lots of scientific studies that indicate that moderate drinking is good for your heart, [img]icon_heart.gif[/img] drinks a day. For all I know since alcohol is a solvent a moderate amount could be cleaning off the windshield...not making it more dirty, at my stage in the evolutionary process. My meditation has been pretty good lately.
And lastly, I don't think alcohol is the root of the problem...it is the attachment and desire (for anything) that causes us to be stuck. Too much alcohol...too much food...too much sex...too much meditation!
I know most of the old yogic texts say no meat, no sex, no alcohol. I believe those requirements may apply for priests and others on a direct path to GOD but are not mandatory where I am currently at in my evolution. I am a householder and am not looking to levitate, astrally project myself or read peoples minds. I am doing yoga to improve my health, be happy and to increase divine outpouring love...the most important siddhi!
For anyone that is an alcoholic I of course recommend abstinence. For others I recommend having an open mind and realizing that there is ONE TRUTH ... MANY PATHS...Sri Satchidandna.
So the best advice I can give Gumpi is to listen carefully to the still small voice within and find your own path. From my experience AYP can help with the listening but the decisions you must make yourself. |
Edited by - machart on Sep 01 2008 1:45:39 PM |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 3:10:05 PM
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A reporter asked Ghandi for his secret of life in three words. "Renounce and enjoy."
Compare that formulation with the first verse of the Isha Upanishad:
"The Lord is enshrined in the hearts of all. The Lord is the supreme Reality. Rejoice in him through renunciation. Covet nothing. All belongs to the Lord."
newpov
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Edited by - newpov on Sep 01 2008 4:18:25 PM |
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