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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 01 2008 : 3:37:05 PM
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People would rarely intend to patronise - if they were aware they were doing it they would generally stop or attempt to stop.
I know I can be patronising - my son tells me so . Mind you I had to ask him first - am I patronising in any way with you? - so I was delighted when he layed it out to me - it was a very easy correction, thankfully. Now he is very quick to tell me
So if anyone here every experiences me as patronising - I want to be told - ok
I know I'm still prone to patronisation because somethimes I react to people who take the "teacher" or "superior" role - if it bugs me then of course its a projection and means I have self-inquiry to do.
This happens sometimes on the forum here, so we have the opportunity to grow with this.
But is it fair to always, only introject this kind of thing - would it be more fair to also inform the other person of their patronisation so they will be more aware of it ( in a nice way of course)
As I said above, I would appreciate people informing me, so maybe others feel the same way?
Of course this begs the question can one take the teacher role without being patronising and of course the answer is yes.
So how is this done? any clues?
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2008 : 5:24:49 PM
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Hi, Sparkle,
I think Yogani is a good example of a teacher who does not come across as patronising. Perhaps this comes from teaching from a place of love, as oppposed to an ego trip.
namaste,
Joe |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2008 : 6:15:20 PM
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I've done this too, and have recently made a correction. I think what you said makes sense - to be straightforward, but nice, "I'm not sure you're aware that you're being patronising or condescending, but I understand your perspective..."
Thanks for the topic, Sparkle:
VIL |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2008 : 7:18:36 PM
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Sparkle said:
But is it fair to always, only introject this kind of thing - would it be more fair to also inform the other person of their patronisation so they will be more aware of it ( in a nice way of course)
Some people, for sure, do make the faux pas of pre-emptively assuming the teaching role. It seems to be more common among people who are new to the forum and have little clue about how much experience people here have, or have little clue how strong some yogis here are, even those who don't have so much experience (yet).
I agree with what you've said between the lines Louis, that if we're actually upset about this, it's largely our own problem.
At the same time, I do think it's fine and good to call people on it, for their sake and that of the community. But we should be careful, as we are in any socially corrective action. I'd be less inclined to actually call 'patronization', more likely to just ask some pointed questions or point some related things out. They might best be about actual behavior, not 'patronization' itself.
An effective thing to say might be 'You seem to be assuming I have very little experience on this matter. Why?'. Or, a little more pointedly, 'Thankyou for that teaching, though it wasn't one I required right now, since I went through that 24 years ago.'
Or even simpler still, 'Thanks, but I don't need instructions on that right now'.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2008 : 7:19:47 PM
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I hope you're all writing this down.
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2008 : 8:08:07 PM
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Sparkle said:
Of course this begs the question can one take the teacher role without being patronising and of course the answer is yes. So how is this done? any clues?
Hi Sparkle,
As we know, patronizing can be a way of displaying supremacy in some way or another. Sometimes I think it can be taken that way by a recipient, even with no specific intent from the other person. But I also think that patronizing behavior can be an expression of intent to show off oneself in some way, even if this intent is not quite conscious. And, patronizing can also be conscious and deliberate, and serve as a milder and more subtle form of put-down than being obviously rude. So, it's important that others remind a person if this happens, like VIL and David suggest.
When it comes to acting as teacher, I think it's legitimate when dealing with specific subjects that a person knows a lot about, or has a lot of experience in. So, in the forum, many have stepped in regularly as teachers on a temporary basis. And, in life in general, people are teachers for each other in many areas. The problem comes in if someone sees themselves as teacher in general for other people, and is not open to the reality that they also have things to learn from others, that there are areas of life where they also need to be students. So, the teacher-student roles have to switch back and forth, depending on situation and what is being dealt with. Even a school teacher must be open to learn from the students.
I think one way teaching without patronizing can be done is if the emphasis of the interaction deals with the knowledge itself to be conveyed, rather than focusing on the fact that the recipient needs to know or understand it. That in itself will keep the attention more on the subject matter, and the recipient will usually be more open to it if they feel that they have the option to consider it, rather than feeling that somebody is trying to impose it on them.
In general, I think if there is genuine desire to help another person, teaching will usually not come across as patronizing. The desire to help must of course be balanced with discernment to let the other person learn by their own experience as well, so the teaching doesn't become excessive. |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2008 : 8:49:38 PM
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| I've been getting patronised alot lately. And I deserve it because I have done it myself before. The sad fact is I never knew it was so annoying until I was on the receiving end. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2008 : 9:13:11 PM
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Weaver said:
I think one way teaching without patronizing can be done is if the emphasis of the interaction deals with the knowledge itself to be conveyed, rather than focusing on the fact that the recipient needs to know or understand it.
I agree that this is one of the central keys. When the 'patronization' occurs, the patronizer is often operating from a hidden (and unconscious) agenda of striking a pose, which demonstrates a 'superior' position. That by its nature is a straying from the subject matter.
(Again, I hope you are all writing this down, although [cough] I can't say I'm hearing the clatter of pencils and flutter of copy-books that I want to hear. )
The focus on the fact that the recipient needs to understand it, or is the learner, is often arising from the hidden agenda we're speaking of, rather than a simple helpulness. Whenever someone asks us directions on the street, we don't typically make some sort of hay out of ourselves being in the teaching role, and the other person a learner. We're simply helpul.
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 01:15:15 AM
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Hi John,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on patronizing. I just want to assure you that I did not have you or any other person in the forum in mind with what I said, and I doubt that is the reason Sparkle or anyone else has written about the subject, except for some people referring to themselves. I think it can be good to discuss subjects like this anyway, to get a broader view of what others think, and possibly to learn something for better interaction in the forum. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 05:49:48 AM
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Thanks for all the great posts.
VIL said: quote:
"I'm not sure you're aware that you're being patronising or condescending, but I understand your perspective..."
Did you mean by this, that you experienced my post as being patronising and condescending or was it a general statement??
David said quote:
Thankyou for that teaching, though it wasn't one I required right now, since I went through that 24 years ago.'
I like that one too but maybe prefer:
Thanks for the teaching ^(*&^%$&*@~}{+><?^&$^*&^%*&^%)(*&^%$£%$£
(yes, writing it all down David bow bow  )
Weaver said: quote:
I think one way teaching without patronizing can be done is if the emphasis of the interaction deals with the knowledge itself to be conveyed, rather than focusing on the fact that the recipient needs to know or understand it.
I agree with what David said about this and would suggest the other way is to speak only out of one's direct experience.
We can do this in two ways:
One way is to make it personal and portray ones actual experience relating to the subject matter.
The other is to draw from one's personal experience and relate it, as matter of fact knowledge, in the way Weaver explains above.
John, no I didn't have you in mind when posting this
It has more come from my own working with it over the past while and finding it very useful in my communications in general.
What Chiron said "I've been getting patronised alot lately. And I deserve it because I have done it myself before. The sad fact is I never knew it was so annoying until I was on the receiving end.
Rings a bell for me, this is how I discovered it in myself. I'm sure Chiron would agree, when we discover it like this it shows the great benefit of recognising and working with our projections.
I suppose little inclusions such as: in my opinion, in my view, for what its worth etc etc, can help normalise a potentially patronising post.
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 08:11:47 AM
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Sparkle, it's exactly as weaver said, and was a personal observation that I recognize, although my intention was always wanting to be helpful.
I just recently read this one interaction that I had with Jim and His Karma, yogani and Shanti, where I really talked down to Jim like he was a child and didn't even know it! It's kind of humorous, since he was SO patient and understanding, as was yogani and Shanti, and overlooked my shortcoming, regardless. I kind of look at it now as them seeing me as a beautiful budding little petunia working itself out from between a rocky crag (blink blink  LOL). Anyway, I'll take the negative and make it positive. It helps me get through the day. Since I usually beat myself up for not being perfect too).
Anyway, I meant nothing toward you or John, although I have recognized a few others doing exactly as I have done. So what I also get from this is to do exactly what was done with me and be patient and understanding and compassionate.
Also, I loved david's humor. (LOL) A good lesson not to make a big deal out of it either.
Namaste:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Jun 02 2008 08:30:22 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 08:38:01 AM
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Wanting to help is in itself actually very patronising. You have already categorized the person as being somehow lower or in lack or lesser than you - that's why you feel you have the power to help in the first place.
Of course that is the case in many situations, and helping by itself is not wrong when it's being asked for. The problem is when it's not being asked for, but the need is defined by the "helper". That's patronising. Byron Katie is totally against "helping"!
Being overly kind and soft can be very patronising and diminish the person in a subtle way. Being overly motherly can be a way to put somebody down. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 09:26:51 AM
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| Whenever someone acts in a patronizing way toward me (not necessarily here on the forum), I recognize their need to feel important, and try not to judge it. It's not such a big deal - they're just insecure, that's all. So am I. When we react to another person's superior posturing, then it's just 2 egos clashing, and it becomes a ridiculous exchange. But if we can see the patronizing in a compassionate light and not get hung up in it - essentially just dismiss it - then the superior/inferior positions disappear. Usually. Ironically, by having compassion for the patronizing person, we are ourselves become silently patronizing. If only they knew. :D |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 11:17:12 AM
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Hi all,
quote:
emc wrote:
The problem is when it's not being asked for, but the need is defined by the "helper". That's patronising. Byron Katie is totally against "helping"!
I find it really patronizing when people say they are really against helping, and then spend their whole life helping people. I find that kind of thing so unnecessary.
Christi |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 1:43:28 PM
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Christi, she is only trying to make us aware of how subtle the ego works. Even helping - seen as something unselfish - can actually be very selfish.
But I agree - all the sages says "I don't do anything" and then they do A LOT! You can stay exactly as you are - but I'm here to help you alter your ways! |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 1:54:09 PM
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Christi said:
I find it really patronizing when people say they are really against helping, and then spend their whole life helping people. I find that kind of thing so unnecessary.
Yeah. What we have here (if EMC is right) is that BK has quietly defined 'helping' to mean 'helping, with the need defined by the helper'. I don't know much about BK, so I don't know if EMC is right about this. It doesn't really matter whether BK herself is doing it or not there is a pattern here which is common.
Let's say that X defines 'helping' in such a way. That would be an unfortunate misuse of language -- that connotation has essentially been imposed by the spiritual teacher in question. It's a meaning they may impose on other people. You could label that practice, semantic imposition.
Unfortunately, I have to say, when Advaitans meet yogis and there is some friction and disagreement, when you unpack it, there is often semantic imposition going on on the part of the Advaitans. The semantic impositions may be around words like 'enligthenment' or 'practice'. Semantic imposition is not necessarily patronization itself, but it's in the same spectrum -- you'll observe that the semantic imposition is always done in a way that seems to give the Advaitan an apparent position of greater knowledge -- they have attached specialized meanings to things that make them seem to have access to some amazing AHA insights that make everyone else (the yogis) wrong.
But when you unpack it all, you may find that the position of 'greater knowledge' is only apparent. Unfortunately, it takes a certain amount of familiarity with enlightenment to see through such stuff, and beginners are at the mercy these sort of language-games.
I don't mean that as a slur against Advaitans -- only against the playing of such games, whether conscious or unconscious.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 3:29:23 PM
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John C said:
but I would rather be considered just obnoxious rather than condescending or presumptuous or especially patronizing.
I don't think anyone was thinking of you either. Obnoxious and condescending are not the same thing (though it is possible to be both of course).
I may be off track here, but I feel that anyone who writes contrary to or takes issue with AYP/Yogani teachings is probably dead on arrival on these forums as far as public opinion and comment.
I don't think it's as bad as 'dead on arrival' at all. The reception you get will probably be varied, because the people here are themselves varied.
When one goes against popular sentiment, or 'rains on a parade' one is apt to get a cool reception, but I wouldn't let that dissuade you. That's just human nature at play. Who wants their parade rained on?
You can see me getting a pretty cool reception for challenging popular cultural presumptions
here.
Lot's of people don't like rain on that particular parade, but there was no sense that anyone would try to stop me saying it.
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 3:48:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
Whenever someone acts in a patronizing way toward me (not necessarily here on the forum), I recognize their need to feel important, and try not to judge it. It's not such a big deal - they're just insecure, that's all. So am I. When we react to another person's superior posturing, then it's just 2 egos clashing, and it becomes a ridiculous exchange. But if we can see the patronizing in a compassionate light and not get hung up in it - essentially just dismiss it - then the superior/inferior positions disappear. Usually. Ironically, by having compassion for the patronizing person, we are ourselves become silently patronizing. If only they knew. :D
Hi Meg
I wonder how you are defining "compassion" in your use of it here.
To me it seems like you might be "feeling sorry for them" or "pitying" them, but maybe I'm not seeing it.
My understanding of compassion, which might not be everyone's, is to do with no-self, that is, you connect with the person as you, and you as the person. Or as the term Namaste infers - the divine in me sees the divine in you and we meet in that place.
So having compassion for someone is no different than having compassion for yourself - they are one and the same thing.
In this place of compassion, patronisation is a non-issue. The words of the person are taken and appreciated and the other "stuff" is hardly noticed.
I get it sometimes, but not always, still working on it.
Just my view fwiw
Namaste
PS. I guess that even out of that place of compassion a person can still have the habit of patronisation - so the work never stops - damn!! |
Edited by - Sparkle on Jun 02 2008 3:55:43 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 4:16:36 PM
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VIL said quote:
I kind of look at it now as them seeing me as a beautiful budding little petunia working itself out from between a rocky crag (blink blink LOL)
I think that's where we're all at VIL - little budding petunias (although I haven't a clue what they look like)
David said: quote:
Some people, for sure, do make the faux pas of pre-emptively assuming the teaching role. It seems to be more common among people who are new to the forum and have little clue about how much experience people here have, or have little clue how strong some yogis here are, even those who don't have so much experience (yet).
I wouldn't like to point a finger particularly at the less experienced and new people here.
I think it is just as likely to happen with the experienced people, as stated above, it is usually unconscious and can go un-noticed by a person for a long time - hence the value in pointing these things out to people - in a skillful and compassionate way. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 4:27:42 PM
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I wouldn't like to point a finger particularly at the less experienced and new people here.
I didn't say it was exclusive to new people, or point a finger at them. I was more making excuses for them than pointing a finger at them.
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 4:40:20 PM
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Very interesting topic, and equally interesting posts from all concerned. Have been following the latter with interest and it has made me aware of how carefully we have to tread when "talking" to each other. Words can seldom do justice to our thoughts, even more so when the same words mean different things to different people. But it helps to ask for clarifications rather than jump to conclusions about what the person who wrote the original stuff that one disagrees with actually meant.
As for helping. I remember my grandfather telling me this when I was a kid "Even if a drunkard tells you it is not a good idea to get smashed, you should listen to him". I thing it is less important what the motives behind a particular offer to assist are. If the advice or opinion proffered is helpful, we should grab it with both hands. Otherwise, we should try and not get riled about it. It might be useful to somebody else |
Edited by - shankar on Jun 02 2008 4:44:05 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 4:51:19 PM
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Shankar said:
But it helps to ask for clarifications rather than jump to conclusions about what the person who wrote the original stuff that one disagrees with actually meant.
Agreed.
The English language carries special risks even. The common, vernacular, form for 'one' is 'you'! Other languages don't have this.
So if you use it, you'll come across as obnoxious if you aren't careful.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 4:52:58 PM
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I mean, if we use it, we'll come across as obnoxious if we aren't careful.
Did that sound better? 
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 5:09:44 PM
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The use of "we" is brilliant! We should use that formulation more often!
This is also related to this old topic I wrote when there was a lot of projections going on at the forum, and people were in a very "touchy mood", taking things personally, getting offended, patronising eachother etc etc... I stepped in as a mega teacher and wrote:
Power of Words - On communication
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2462 |
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 5:18:16 PM
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Hi David!
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
I mean, if we use it, we'll come across as obnoxious if we aren't careful.
Did that sound better?
As I said, I "take it" or "leave it". If I find a penny on the street, I might just as well pick it up. It might not be worth anything right now, but then again, it might just come in handy some day. Or I might leave it alone. It might be picked up by the next guy who sees it.
Methinks the trick is to take the posts here here as generalized entries among the gazillions of pieces of information out on the net. Unless of course, somebody makes a rude and personal attack on oneself. But I have only learnt from the posts here thus far.
Not least yours, David. I just backtracked to read some of your older posts on the subject of Gurus and our tendency to put them on a pedastal. And I was thinking to myself. These guys never even knew the West existed before some hippies turned up at their door. Now years later, long after they are dead, they are being pilloried for being famous. Go figure
Life is funny
Namaste! |
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 5:31:31 PM
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Hi david!
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
I mean, if we use it, we'll come across as obnoxious if we aren't careful.
Did that sound better?
Actually, david, it sounds even worse. The use of the royal "we", instead of the humble "I" makes you sound well, all regal and pretentious...lol
Ha ha, just kidding... |
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Patronisation
