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Eitherway
USA
100 Posts |
 Posted - May 14 2008 : 10:01:33 PM
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Hi David,
I agree with your perspective as I think perfection might occur so rarely (avatar status) that it is statistically insignificant and the majority of the talk about it is ego driven.
I do, however, believe there is much value in recognizing the apparent limitations of the change in identification and God Absorption, if you will. The value is not in putting down past masters but rather a sort of understanding that will pervade the spiritual community about there being no perfectly enlightened master and thus also no path that can't be improved, etc.... This should over time lead to greater collaboration between gurus/masters/aspirants of different traditions and thus help create even more powerful and even easier paths to tread than AYP. (e.g, AYP +Kunlun +some pharm or herb???)
Of course, this is what Yogani has seemingly been up to with creating AYP and I think largely this is due to his taking the best from different traditions and learning from past masters without getting too hung up on perfection in path or teacher.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2008 : 10:18:59 PM
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Hi Eitherway,
Just wanted to say that the perspective you offered, particularly in your first post, is the way I am seeing it these days as well. I really enjoyed the read, thanks .
***
Hi Alan,
Your quotes from Joan Tollifson could not have been more timely for me to read, thank you for sharing them! |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2008 : 10:19:06 PM
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David wrote:
quote:
"He yelled and he got angry and he smoked (which he knew was bad for him) because he had some imperfections. Stop imagining 'perfectly enlightened' and there's nothing to explain. Behold Nisagardatta!"
I agree. In fact, I don't see anything imperfect about yelling, getting angry, and smoking! I just don't like those things. I don't like a lot of things human beings do.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2008 : 10:28:31 PM
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Eitherway said:
I do, however, believe there is much value in recognizing the apparent limitations of the change in identification and God Absorption, if you will. The value is not in putting down past masters but rather a sort of understanding that will pervade the spiritual community about there being no perfectly enlightened master and thus also no path that can't be improved, etc.... This should over time lead to greater collaboration between gurus/masters/aspirants of different traditions and thus help create even more powerful and even easier paths to tread than AYP. (e.g, AYP +Kunlun +some pharm or herb???)
Say it man!!  With you all the way here!
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2008 : 11:33:35 PM
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David said:
"If anything, I like the guy more for letting some of his imperfections hang out! Sounds like he could be fun to be with! He'd be a better man to share a pint of Guinness with than some other enlightenment icons!"
You want to have a beer with this guy?!
http://www.realization.org/page/top...rgadatta.htm
I'm afraid he would have drank you under the table before the glasses were set out. Ha ha ha ha ha! |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2008 : 02:51:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
Hi Eitherway,
Just wanted to say that the perspective you offered, particularly in your first post, is the way I am seeing it these days as well. I really enjoyed the read, thanks.
***
Hi Alan,
Your quotes from Joan Tollifson could not have been more timely for me to read, thank you for sharing them!
Hi A. I'm glad you enjoyed that Joan is great in her nice and smiling way. And very straightforward too. She doesn't beat around the bush with her direct pointing to the Self.
Below is a link to a little essay where Tollifson talks about gurus. I call Amma Karunamayi my Guru at present, but I won't keep her limited to one form, she is in all the great ones I adore, including you and me  .
http://www.lotusandrose.com/dewdrops/teacher.htm
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Edited by - Balance on May 15 2008 03:00:37 AM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2008 : 9:40:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Balance
David said:
"If anything, I like the guy more for letting some of his imperfections hang out! Sounds like he could be fun to be with! He'd be a better man to share a pint of Guinness with than some other enlightenment icons!"
You want to have a beer with this guy?!
http://www.realization.org/page/top...rgadatta.htm
I'm afraid he would have drank you under the table before the glasses were set out. Ha ha ha ha ha!
I was just funnin' with you David |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2008 : 01:12:14 AM
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About "nothing changes"... I noticed that proclamation fueled my bhakti even more. I wanna get out of here, and if nothing is gonna change it means I can't get out of here... That scares the hell out of me. So something better change, or I will end up belted in a mental hospital for the rest of my life cause then I log out permanently. Maya is hell. At least the perception of it will change, as Ether said, and that's my bhakti drive, to - in whatever way - change the position towards maya/hell. And according to Yogani (and own glimpses of experience) - in a magical way life will not become so hellish anylonger either as we proceed. It just won't rain on you when it rains on others, and if it does, you will laugh about it. If I'd still be in hell after enlightenment (or whatever sort of profound realization)... well... then nothing changed! And I would say:  !
So if we carried water and was grumpy about it and suffered from the heavy burden before enlightenment, I sincerely hope we will carry water after - perhaps be grumpy about it because our personalities won't change that much - but we won't suffer, because there will be no burden!
Another thing I was discussing with a friend yesterday. What if Nisargadatta was the example of what happens after enlightenment... Would an angry, grumpy, capricious, smoking man work as a good commercial for going the spiritual path??? Of course not. It wouldn't encourage many. Instead we would like to see someone like Amma or Gandhi as an example of an enlightened person, kind and loving in all situations. So that could be a reason why so much effort is put on altering the flaws of the ego FIRST, so you become a bit nicer person. Because that person will still be there after enlightenment and we'd prefer well developed, psychologically harmonious and mature egos to deal with when enlightened. It would encourage others more to walk the spiritual path.
The Samuraj's were also enlightened, weren't they? And killed people. Not a very good promotion for "love and truth". Still, they were as pure as can be! Stillness in action. Stillness kills if it wants to. But we don't want to know that since our perception of love is something else, based on emotions. Real love is sharp. Not emotional. |
Edited by - emc on May 16 2008 4:15:49 PM |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2008 : 02:40:10 AM
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"Real love is sharp. Not emotional."
I beg to differ. Real love just makes no distinction. That's it that's all.
And it includes making distinctions... there lies the paradox. There's why you can't explain it, it just is.
I think we've all gone this way and that towards our "enlightenment". Changing this, changing that, growing here and there. You could say consciousness grows as if consciousness has something to grow into. You could say that. Karmah... cause and effect, It leads to growth, to change, maturity, a well developed being.
And the paradox is always just sitting there between everything and nothing. We go to one side, to the other... trying to ease into that balanced way of being, into our "enlightenment", and still... the paradox is sitting there between everything and nothing. It's life, it's death, the in breath, the out breath. You could say in its imperfection it's perfect. Some would say it's just perfect, but they're still looking, they've convinced themselves of perfection and strive for it. I'm convinced of imperfection, and I don't mind looking at it. It's there... and I don't mind. Why would I think otherwise... because some guru told me it's perfect? It's "divine"? Because I need to act in accordance of what's "divine". As that divine in me grows... I'll change along with it, but not because anything ever changed. The paradox is still there... I'll just express it differently, that is all.
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2008 : 03:50:33 AM
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Perfections, imperfections. What are these but concepts. Judgements of the body-mind gauging what's best for its hopeful survival. Illusions built upon illusions. None of it is evil or good. It is as it is. We are doing our thing here acting out mind games until it is dropped once and for all.
As you said Divineis: "Real love just makes no distinction. That's it that's all."
That concept is closer to the truth of what we are underneath the mind games. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2008 : 11:51:50 AM
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quote:
emc: About "nothing changes"... I noticed that proclamation fueled my bhakti even more. I wanna get out of here, and if nothing is gonna change it means I can't... That scares the hell out of me.
We can all change and become better people, emc. People who justify acceptance of what is without meditation or the need for purification are rationalizing an illusion of acceptance of negative behavior.
Meditation is a gradual process, just like the literal dream. And people are confused, largely, by a new wave of people who state that all you have to do is be in the now. If a person is affected by subconscious thought patterns that are affecting living fully within the present moment then how can a person truly be present? It's impossible.
The witness needs to be established, first, or the dream needs to be gradually realized, so the person can distinguish from what is a dream and what is wakefulness. In other words, we never instantly dream, so how can we instantly awake, if the witness/dream is not known first?
A good way of looking at it is when you hear of people who claim instant or magical wakefulness is to question how this is possible if they didn't know that physical reality was a dream previously. So what are they waking up from?
Or if they are viewing it from the perspective that they instantly realized that the physical world was a dream, then what was it previously?
The only way to distinguish between anything is comparison and experience, which is the best teacher. Or listening to our inner guru, as yogani says.
So just like gradually sinking into the dream state, meditation is the only known way of purifying the nervous system, to realize the true dream, whether this is/was done naturally or through practice. There is no other way to realize the self, or the witness, as yogani says. At least, not one, that complies to reason/reality.
So don't despair, emc, it's an ongoing process that we all go through. Nobody's perfect or has reached an end state and if anyone claims that they have, they are in for quite an awakening.
Namaste:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on May 16 2008 12:00:24 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2008 : 12:13:24 PM
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VIL, thank you. You show me that I have to change something in the way I write posts here at forum. I am not in despair whatsoever. I thought I was contributing with a humorous, intelligent post making rational points on on a rather abstract level.... *mumble, mumble, scratching the beard* (= being self ironic)
My only hope is that you perhaps read this sentence
quote:
I wanna get out of here, and if nothing is gonna change it means I can't...
as if I meant I can't change as a person. However, the aiming was at the "can't get out of here". So the full sentence would read:
I wanna get out of here, and if nothing is gonna change it means I can't get out of here.. meaning if it was true nothing changed, I would live in maya forever, and that is... exactly the opposite of what the spiritual path is about, no?
With my "glimpses of experience" I mean the two months after the retreat last summer. That was a being like the one Joan Tollifson describes. (http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3911) After that... I started bombarding this forum with what's REAL and UNREAL until (some) people got sick of me! Haha! Now I'm a beautiful movie star in my life again... totally going up in my role, with only short visits to the other perspective! LOL! It can really swing when the nervous system is not yet purified enough to hold the REAL for a longer time.
But thanks again VIL, I appreciate your concern anyway.
And about the "real love"... sharp is perhaps not the right word... I was trying to point out that what we often perceive as love (before we feel real love) is an emotional thing. We almost always picture it as something very friendly, nice, soft etc, something celebrating life. Not what could kill ruthlessly and celebrate death equally! (Thus, makes no distinction between life and death.) |
Edited by - emc on May 16 2008 1:01:52 PM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2008 : 1:09:18 PM
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| I got your meaning behind the word "sharp" emc |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2008 : 2:04:09 PM
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| Oh, you make me happy! *bowing in gratitude* |
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jamesrgarrett
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2008 : 11:48:02 AM
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| Wilder, This is my first post to this site but I felt that at last I could contribute. Sri Aurobindo, in his book The Synthesis of Yoga, writes at length about the difference before and after enlightenment. He prefaces the discussion by saying that the path is somewhat different for everyone, and he makes clear that it is a process that unfolds over time, but his discussion and description is very thorough and compeling. Aurobindo is a fascinating author and the book is well worth the read. Best regards. Jim |
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jamesrgarrett
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2008 : 10:27:32 PM
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I wanted to come back and post some of the text that I referred to in my earlier post. This comes from Sri Aurobindo's Synthesis of Yoga, pages 153-157. I hope that it's helpful. Jim
"It is the very nature of the soul or the psychic being to turn towards the divine Truth as the sunflower to the sun; it accepts and clings to all that is divine or progressing towards divinity, and draws back from all that is a perversion or a denial of it, from all that is false and undivine. Yet the soul is at first but a spark and then a little flame of godhead burning in the midst of a great darkness; for the most part it is veiled in its inner sanctum and to reveal itself it has to call on the mind, the life-force and the physical consciousness and persuade them, as best they can, to express it; ordinarily, it succeeds at most in suffusing their outwardness with its inner light and modifying with its purifying fineness their dark obscurities or their coarser mixture. Even when there is a formed psychic being able to express itself with some directness in life, it is still in all but a few a smaller portion of the being — “no bigger in the mass of the body than the thumb of a man” was the image used by the ancient seers — and it is not always able to prevail against the obscurity or ignorant smallness of the physical consciousness, the mistaken surenesses of the mind or the arrogance and vehemence of the vital nature. This soul is obliged to accept the human mental, emotive, sensational life as it is, its relations, its activities, its cherished forms and figures; it has to labour to disengage and increase the divine element in all this relative truth mixed with a continual falsifying error, this love turned to the uses of the animal body or the satisfaction of the vital ego, this life of an average manhood shot with rare and pale glimpses of godhead and the darker luridities of the demon and the brute. Unerring in the essence of its will, it is obliged often under the pressure of its instruments to submit to mistakes of action, wrong placement of feeling, wrong choice of person, errors in the exact form of its will, in the circumstances of its expression of the infallible inner ideal. Yet is there a divination within it which makes it a surer guide than the reason or than even the highest desire, and through apparent errors and stumblings its voice can still lead better than the precise intellect and the considering mental judgment. This voice of the soul is not what we call conscience for that is only a mental and often conventional erring substitute; it is a deeper and more seldom heard call; yet to follow it when heard is wisest: even, it is better to wander at the call of one’s soul than to go apparently straight with the reason and the outward moral mentor. But it is only when the life turns towards the Divine that the soul can truly come forward and impose its power on the outer members; for, itself a spark of the Divine, to grow in flame towards the Divine is its true life and its very reason of existence.
"At a certain stage in the Yoga when the mind is sufficiently quieted and no longer supports itself at every step on the sufficiency of its mental certitudes, when the vital has been steadied and subdued and is no longer constantly insistent on its own rash will, demand and desire, when the physical has been sufficiently altered not to bury altogether the inner flame under the mass of its outwardness, obscurity or inertia, an inmost being,
long hidden within and felt only in its rare influences, is able to come forward and illumine the rest and take up the lead of the Sadhana. Its character is a one-pointed orientation towards the Divine or the Highest, one-pointed and yet plastic in action
and movement; it does not create a rigidity of direction like the one-pointed intellect or a bigotry of the regnant idea or impulse like the one-pointed vital force; it is at every moment and with a supple sureness that it points the way to the Truth, automatically
distinguishes the right step from the false, extricates the divine or Godward movement from the clinging mixture of the undivine. Its action is like a searchlight showing up all that has to be changed in the nature; it has in it a flame of will insistent on perfection, on an alchemic transmutation of all the inner and outer existence. It sees the divine essence everywhere but rejects the mere mask and the disguising figure. It insists on Truth, on
will and strength and mastery, on Joy and Love and Beauty, but on a Truth of abiding Knowledge that surpasses the mere practical momentary truth of the Ignorance, on an inward joy and not on mere vital pleasure, — for it prefers rather a purifying suffering and sorrow to degrading satisfactions, — on love winged upward and not tied to the stake of egoistic craving or with its feet sunk in the mire, on beauty restored to its priesthood of interpretation of the Eternal, on strength and will and mastery as instruments not of the ego but of the Spirit. Its will is for the divinisation of life, the expression through it of a higher Truth, its dedication to the Divine and the Eternal.
"But the most intimate character of the psychic is its pressure towards the Divine through a sacred love, joy and oneness. It is a divine Love that it seeks most, it is the love of the Divine that is its spur, its goal, its star of Truth shining over the luminous cave of the nascent or the still obscure cradle of the new-born godhead within us. In the first long stage of its growth and immature existence it has leaned on earthly love, affection, tenderness, goodwill, compassion, benevolence, on all beauty and gentleness and fineness and light and strength and courage, on all that can help to refine and purify the grossness and commonness of human nature; but it knows how mixed are these human movements at their best and at their worst how fallen and stamped with the mark of ego and self-deceptive sentimental falsehood and the lower self profiting by the imitation of a soul-movement. At once, emerging, it is ready and eager to break all the old ties and imperfect emotional activities and replace them by a greater spiritual Truth of love and oneness. It may still admit the human forms and movements, but on condition that they are turned towards the One alone. It accepts only the ties that are helpful, the heart’s and mind’s reverence for the Guru, the union of the God-seekers, a spiritual compassion for this ignorant human and animal world and its peoples, the joy and happiness and satisfaction of beauty that comes from the perception of the Divine everywhere. It plunges the nature inward towards its meeting with the immanent Divine in the heart’s secret centre and, while that call is there, no reproach of egoism, no mere outward summons of altruism or duty or philanthropy or service will deceive or divert it from its sacred longing and its obedience to the attraction of the Divinity within it. It lifts the being towards a transcendent Ecstasy and is ready to shed all the downward pull of the world from its wings in its uprising to reach the One Highest; but it calls down also this transcendent Love and Beatitude to deliver and transform this world of hatred and strife and division and darkness and jarring Ignorance. It opens to a universal Divine Love, a vast compassion, an intense and immense will for the good of all, for the embrace of the World-Mother enveloping or gathering to her her children, the divine Passion that has plunged into the night for the redemption of the world from the universal Inconscience. It is not attracted or misled by mental imitations or any vital misuse of these great deep-seated Truths of existence; it exposes them with its detecting search-ray and calls down the entire truth of divine Love to heal these malformations, to deliver mental, vital, physical love from their insufficiencies or their perversions and reveal to them their true abounding share of the intimacy and the oneness, the ascending ecstasy and the descending rapture.
"All true Truth of love and of the works of love the psychic being accepts in their place: but its flame mounts always upward and it is eager to push the ascent from lesser to higher degrees of Truth, since it knows that only by the ascent to a highest Truth and the descent of that highest Truth can Love be delivered from the cross and placed upon the throne; for the cross is the sign of the Divine Descent barred and marred by the transversal line of a cosmic deformation which turns it into a stake of suffering and misfortune. Only by the ascent to the original Truth can the deformation be healed and all the works of love, as too all the works of knowledge and of life, be restored to a divinesignificance and become part of an integral spiritual existence."
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2008 : 12:45:03 AM
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Cool, thanks for sharing Jim. I especially found this bit helpful and interesting: "This soul is obliged to accept the human mental, emotive, sensational life as it is, its relations, its activities, its cherished forms and figures; it has to labour to disengage and increase the divine element in all this relative truth mixed with a continual falsifying error, this love turned to the uses of the animal body or the satisfaction of the vital ego, this life of an average manhood shot with rare and pale glimpses of godhead and the darker luridities of the demon and the brute. Unerring in the essence of its will, it is obliged often under the pressure of its instruments to submit to mistakes of action, wrong placement of feeling, wrong choice of person, errors in the exact form of its will, in the circumstances of its expression of the infallible inner ideal."
It seems that's all there is to it. I'm imperfect... and that's ok, it's a driving force for change. Hate, anger, fear... it's just those raw human emotions looking for something greater, how beautiful that is I can't say I even fully understand. And coming to grips with this I reckon is one of the biggest steps one takes on their spiritual path.
I usually don't take talk of enlightenment seriously, especially if it's talk of "perfection" or whatever. It just seems so silly to me. Imperfection grabs our attention, there's a reason for that. Talk of perfection is the same thing in a way, it's just more talk about imperfection... but to me it's often just putting a veil, a band-aid on the imperfection. And when you've come to grips with imperfection, and can see how it has its place, that to me is a mini enlightenment. I like those mini enlightenments. Those moments of sinking into something you've been avoiding for so long, and you wonder, what was I scared of? And it's really scary at times, and it hurts and it sucks, but that's what keeps us human, you know what I mean? Honestly, it kinda saddens me to see all the talk of enlightenment, of "ending suffering". It's sorta like all "nothing"(talk of enlightenment) is in balance with something(suffering). The more we're after it, it's because we know there's something that's gotta be done, and it's all because of those beautiful "raw" "low vibing" human emotions that drive us for something more. It's like trying to get away from what drives us haha. I probably do this bi-daily haha, I'll just sit there and laugh at some "enlightening" mindset... I mean, they all have their truth, but from some angles, they're just so silly, such nonsense to hold on to.
bah, anyway, I'm done rambling haha. I guess I've had a few thoughts bubbling up there for you guys. Thanks for reading :). |
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rabar
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2008 : 1:42:29 PM
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Hallo Friends, Hi Yogani:
It's been a while since I checked in -- busy finishing a collection of
short pieces (due out in a few weeks) titled 'A Planetary Sojourn.'
~ Eric Putkonen wrote: 'nothing changes.
I would suggest "Recognizing you are nothing changes the view of everything."
Of course you've always been 'nothing,' but once realized... ah!!
So who gets enlightened? No one! You cannot be 'someone'.
For this reason I came up with the formula:
(0 or 1)n = #8734;
Which is shorthand for "just dissolve whatever 'view' of nothing or someone presents
itself, on any level/dimension."
Offered by the Neti-Neti Knitting Society.
You might find Anadi's (previously Aziz Kristof) new online book of interest:
www.anaditeaching.com
And then, for a totally different dance through the meadows of Mt. Meru:
www.davidspero.com
Quoting from a recent reply to a questioner, David wrote:
Having been shut up within the Limitless Well of your Infinite Consciousness
for a sufficient amount of time (in Self-realization), you will eventually die
there, in all that glorious Absoluteness. In that death, all forms of knowledge
will come to an end, even the knowledge of Self-realization. The only time it
might re-emerge is in functioning as a Teacher or Guru. In that case, it might
"re-occur" as a distinct condition for aspirants to witness (and absorb - if you
accept the language and concept of spiritual transmission).
Simply put, sahaja samadhi releases one of the temptation to think of oneself
particularly or Universally. There is no distinctly profound or overwhelming
experience of Inner Consciousness, or Being (in it), at all. Sahaja samadhi
bridges the gap between the functioning body-mind and the Transcendental Self,
exquisitely. You could say that it obliterates the exalted sense of subjectivity
found in Self-realization, immersing it throughout the entire functioning of the
body-mind. [END QUOTE]
My practice, following Sri Aurobindo. Mother Mira and Satprem's work on the
subcellular physical levels, has simplified down to:
Purring (tracheal resonance) to dissolve any accruing lateral tensions in the physical form
Smiling to offer blessings, health and peace to all beings (including this one)
Blinking to break out of any thought stream that doesn't just flow on by (Dalai Lama's method)
Playing tunes on my eyelashes with the tip-ends of my glasses to energize the facial nerves (this
increases the flow of chi throughout the body and the cells rejoice).
I rely on Sri A's success in bringing the supramental down to the planet, which implies to me
that fancy flights into the 'upper realms' may be fun but don't take us where the work is.
The work is on the subcellular levels, where the supramental rediscovers itself buried in the
biophotons. Of course your mileage may vary. I'm just sharing one POV.
Fun to be back!
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2008 : 5:16:32 PM
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quote:
Playing tunes on my eyelashes with the tip-ends of my glasses to energize the facial nerves (this
increases the flow of chi throughout the body and the cells rejoice).
Ehrm... could you please write more about what this is and how you do it? I don't get it but it sounds very interesting.
I just read "nothing changes" from another perspective... It's true! It's absolutely true! Nothing is appearing as something... and the only consistent characteristic of all somethings is that they change. Everything changes - except the nothingness, which is eternal and never change - still this nothing is what's "behind" everything!!!
So... it's just the most beautiful description of the two sides of the coin... in a very short and concise way. Nothing changes. That's what it miraculously does! Stillness in action, emptiness dancing. Nothing changes! |
Edited by - emc on May 23 2008 5:19:14 PM |
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rabar
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2008 : 2:09:01 PM
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quote:
Playing tunes on my eyelashes with the tip-ends of my glasses to energize the facial nerves (this
increases the flow of chi throughout the body and the cells rejoice).
quote:
Ehrm... could you please write more about what this is and how you do it? I don't get it but it sounds very interesting.
For more information on using the facial nerves' sensitivity as a gateway to triggering intense
energetic waves of ecstasy, please got to: www.raysender.com/thwizzler.html
I should add to the page mentioned that, after trying various types of tickling resources, a very light touch with the fingertips - or almost any 'tips' - works just fine. Experiment for yourself, with the obvious caution never to do anything dangerous or potentially harmful.
Thanks for asking!
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voluchi
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2008 : 5:18:06 PM
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| Great posts and discussion. It is a trick question, Every thing stays the same except we feel free from fear, fear of death, joulusy, hatred, so on. |
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2008 : 5:49:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by eputkonen
[quote]Originally posted by Wilder
Enlightenment expands our self to the universal self, makes us more compassionate, peaceful, undisturbed and divine.
That was as good a definition as I've ever come across. Thank you!
shankar |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2008 : 04:50:29 AM
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One thing that does change after enlightement is the electrical activity produced by the brain as measured via an electroencephalograph (EEG). The EEG of a saint becomes flat, and begins to resemble that of the electrocardiogram which records the electrical activity of the heart. Thus the change of consciousness from brain to heart can be scientifically proven.
Thus if one claims to be enlightened, have them take an EEG test. The more advanced the practitioner, the greater the amplitude and the slower the frequency of their brainwave patterns will be. An EEG of a being who has finished their personal practice of enlightenement and liberation will be as described in the first paragraph. |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2008 : 06:28:59 AM
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Hi Chiron,
quote:
Originally posted by Chiron
One thing that does change after enlightement is the electrical activity produced by the brain as measured via an electroencephalograph (EEG). The EEG of a saint becomes flat, and begins to resemble that of the electrocardiogram which records the electrical activity of the heart. Thus the change of consciousness from brain to heart can be scientifically proven.
Thus if one claims to be enlightened, have them take an EEG test. The more advanced the practitioner, the greater the amplitude and the slower the frequency of their brainwave patterns will be. An EEG of a being who has finished their personal practice of enlightenement and liberation will be as described in the first paragraph.
Just read a piece by Osho that says how meditation helps the current humans who are more centred in their head to move to the heart centre (there was a lot more, but just taking yanking out a slice from the whole). Your EEG point goes with that, it would seem.
I don't know about enlightment ... s series of short ones or ultimate kinds (whatever that might be)... but as you keep meditating along with the other practices as put out here in AYP, people do notice some changes at the physical level. You say EEG is one. BP and pulse rate are more factors that have been measured. They both go south. So does sleep (say some of these studies). It would take different people different time spans to notice all this. And then additions keep altering the cycle... till some kind of a steady plateau is arrived at. Basic stuff, but enough for anyone to ride on? Enlightenment seems a far away star.
Sleep, Pulse, and the rest are fluttering out there -visible from the window. Enlightenment is an exotic bird I dream about and forget with sunrise.
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2008 : 07:51:40 AM
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Fair enough, emc:
And, mikkiji, my f/u zen story to the generally accepted meaning of "chop wood, carry water" was utilizing the wisdom of Christ:
"I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor." - John 4:38
And the story of Rumi of the "Oilman and the Parrot":
"An oilman possessed a parrot which used to amuse him with its agreeable prattle, and to watch his shop when he went out. One day, when the parrot was alone in the shop, a cat upset one of the oil-jars. When the oilman returned home he thought that the parrot had done this mischief, and in his anger he smote the parrot such a blow on the head as made all its feathers drop off, and so stunned it that it lost the power of speech for several days. But one day the parrot saw a bald-headed man passing the shop, and recovering its speech, it cried out, "Pray, whose oil-jar did you upset?" The passers-by smiled at the parrot's mistake in confounding baldness caused by age with the loss of its own feathers due to a blow."
The Buddha's stream-winner (sotapanna) reference came later and was talked about by Nirodha:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=3842#34016
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sotapanna
It just kind of flowed in my own way of combining the wisdom of Christ, Rumi and Buddha. And I wanted to let you know that I enjoy your posts, as well as everyones, btw, and was having fun with a generally held view of an ancient saying. Good to have you here, as well as Eric, and all of the other forum members.
VIL
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What does NOT change after enlightenment
