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Wilder
12 Posts |
 Posted - May 12 2008 : 12:43:27 AM
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Hi All,
Let us discuss to see what doesn't change after enlightenment. Enlightenment expands our self to the universal self, makes us more compassionate, peaceful, undisturbed and divine.
But what are the things that does NOT change post enlightenment? For example, we must continue to find skillful ways to live in the world after realization,just like everyone else. The cultural upbringing is not changed through enlightenment. Let us discuss what other things doesnt change after enlightenment.
-Wilder |
Edited by - Wilder on May 12 2008 01:03:23 AM |
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glagbo
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 03:55:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wilder
Let us discuss what other things doesnt change after enlightenment.
What is enlightenment? |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 06:23:25 AM
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Something changes after enlightenment??? are you sure?
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eputkonen
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 11:03:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wilder
Enlightenment expands our self to the universal self, makes us more compassionate, peaceful, undisturbed and divine.
The basic premise is flawed. Nothing changes at all.
You never become more peaceful or divine.
Namaste,
~ Eric Putkonen |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 12:40:38 PM
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There are a number of problems in discussions like this. One problem is in taking a 'digital' view of enlightenment as if it is an on-off thing. It's always relative, while sudden transformations produce the illusion that is all-or-nothing. Please don't fall into the illusion, anyone, that you have reached any sort of 'final' state, because then you will have entered delusion about yourself. It's like thinking you have become as intelligent as it is possible to be.
eputkonen said:
The basic premise is flawed. Nothing changes at all.
You never become more peaceful or divine.
No meanings of any word is pre-given and we have to be careful not to enter discussions which have become unproductive because we are using fundamentally different languages.
When we're saying 'enlightenment' here at AYP forum we're usually talking here about the enlightenment which arises as the result of 'growth' or purification in a yogic sense (this is not to say that those processes producing it have to be catalyzed by yogic practices). While I'm careful to avoid the pitfalls of characterizing it as on-off or all-or-nothing, it's something very real, and generally makes a person more peaceful. I'm not sure about the kind of enlightenment you are talking about, eputkonen, which doesn't bring peacefulness, and which, in your own words, brings nothing at all. If you think it brings nothing at all, not even peacefulness, it's up to you to justify the enlightenment you speak of as being worth being in, or worth helping others to realize -- that is if you think the enlightenment you are talking about is worth being in, or is worth helping others to realize.
But what are the things that does NOT change post enlightenment? For example, we must continue to find skillful ways to live in the world after realization,just like everyone else. The cultural upbringing is not changed through enlightenment. Let us discuss what other things doesnt change after enlightenment.
Wilder, I largely agree with you. I'd particularly emphasize what you just said there, 'For example, we must continue to find skillful ways to live in the world after realization,just like everyone else'.
You are right that the cultural up-bringing doesn't change. We don't become 'unconditioned' culturally, though we develop some skills which can help us break out of cultural errors we inherit. But there is no guarantee that we will break out of them. A person who thinks they are completely 'unconditioned' is in a similar problemmatic state to a person who thinks they have become as intelligent as it is possible to become.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 12 2008 5:19:25 PM |
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eputkonen
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 5:29:48 PM
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David,
You do not become more peaceful or divine, because you are Peace...you are Divine. You can not become what you already are.
You are Satchitananda...you are Brahman.
Namaste,
~ Eric Putkonen |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 5:48:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wilder
Hi All,
Let us discuss to see what doesn't change after enlightenment. Enlightenment expands our self to the universal self, makes us more compassionate, peaceful, undisturbed and divine.
But what are the things that does NOT change post enlightenment? For example, we must continue to find skillful ways to live in the world after realization,just like everyone else. The cultural upbringing is not changed through enlightenment. Let us discuss what other things doesnt change after enlightenment.
-Wilder
This could be a tricky one to answer. First off one would have to presumably be enlightened to explain how it is to be "a someone who is enlightened." And if one could say they were enlightened then the state, experience, perspective or whatever it is would probably be hard to put into words. In my imagination "enlightenment" might be seeing everything as "enlightenment" just as it is. Maybe a seeing through of the presumed individual person. Perhaps an energetic dropping away. I don't really know. When I "feel more enlightened" I feel stillness, luminousity, expansiveness and joyfulness; at peace and loving. But I can still manage to take the groceries from the cart to counter and get out the money. Now I am not enlightened, just at times feeling what I could call a more enlightened experience. If someone were enlightened then how would it be described I wonder? And then there is the concept that there really is nothing substantial that is alone as an individual who could say "Now I am enlightened, and this is what changes, and this is what remains the same." Lots of questions there.
People who I see as being enlightenment appear to be pretty much the same as the rest of us, except that their presence is all about liberation. They don't see any divisions between themselves and anyone else. They are overflowing vessels of Love. That is my experience in their presence. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 7:12:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by eputkonen
David,
You do not become more peaceful or divine, because you are Peace...you are Divine. You can not become what you already are.
You are Satchitananda...you are Brahman.
Namaste,
~ Eric Putkonen
Eric, please. Yes, if we've been told once, we've been told ten thousand times, we are Satchitananda, we are Brahman.  We are already enlightened, we are already Bliss, yada yada yada. But do you really think that's a productive discussional approach that you're taking here? I mean, I didn't sign up for any advaita lessons here..... So if, in the middle of a discussion of the nature and results of enlightenment, is it a good idea for you to start handing me unsolicited advaita lessons?
There are teaching methods in advaita which I will admit have some value in their context. But it's best to assume the role of teacher and jump into those specific teaching methods only in the right context -- namely, among those who are handing you the role of teacher, with everything that goes with that role, which includes being allowed to control the frame of the discussion and the very meanings of the words used.
Because the implicit meaning of 'self' (in its third-person form 'you') which you are using when you are saying 'you cannot become peaceful', is simply different from the ordinary usage of the word, in which a person says (and truthfully) 'I(self, 1st person) am not peaceful', or 'I have a headache' or 'I want to learn something at AYP', or 'I want to figure something out'. If you are a teacher in a setting in which people have come intentionally to learn from you, then the game's yours -- you can play whatever tricks you want and impose your own meanings of words wherever you want. But if you enter a discussion like this, you don't get to do that -- at least not sensibly. You don't get to play word-games, swapping out our word-meanings and imposing your own, unless the game is yours, by our consent.
Or if you do, we will object. At least I will.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 12 2008 8:32:03 PM |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 9:14:01 PM
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In order for any meaningful communication to happen, there must be some level of similarity of the viewpoints, or subject matters discussed, of the parties that are attempting to communicate. And for this communication to be successful to bring further understanding, there must also be mutual respect for the other party's view.
In this topic it seems that the intent of the original author, Wilder, was to discuss enlightenment from the point of view of to what extent enlightenment is realized in the outer, conscious awareness of an individual, and to what extent enlightenment is thereby expressed in its outer life in its environment and with other individuals. We could call this subject matter expressed enlightenment.
This seems to be the purpose of this discussion that most posters share as well. Eric, on the other hand, discusses enlightenment from the point of view of what we all are in an absolute sense. From that point of view we are of course already enlightened. The Reality of this enlightenment is not the same subject matter as what enlightenment is expressed in the outer, conscious awareness of an individual.
So, as long as this is kept in mind, that 2 different things have been discussed here, then there shouldn't be reason for conflict. They can be handled with separate considerations. It may even be better to have another topic for discussion of the absolute view of enlightenment. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 11:22:51 PM
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Yes this can easily turn into mindless word games.
If I were to ask you what changes when blue changes to blue, you could say nothing because there has been no change.
But there is a change between unenlightened and enlightened, and that is the perception of the person it happened to. I think you will find even in advaita that the perception of the person saying nothing has changed, has indeed changed.
The advaitic concepts of "I am not driving the car; there is only driving", or "I am not the one giving love; there is only love" are characterized by a profound change in perception.
And so it is with any view of enlightenment, what has changed is perception, and since all we are is a point of perception, everything will seem to change, while in fact nothing has changed because perception is not a "thing".
Awareness is not tangible, but in the western world our words are mostly built around tangible things, so we get thrown off when we try to apply them to the abstract.
The whole concept of naming things is abstract to begin with, because for instance, the word "tree" has absolutely no connection to a tree, we just have agreements between us of what to think about when we hear words.
So then when we add another layer of abstractness by talking about abstract concepts, we can easily get off-topic and argue the meanings of words rather than the meanings of what the words represent.
If we aren't using the same definition of "enlightenment", then we need to come to that agreement before we can use the word in sentences.
Otherwise it's like two deaf music critics arguing. |
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Nancy
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 11:49:49 PM
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Hi There
Weaver - great post. I feel that some of us are allowing our Mind / Ego to take over. "Enlightenment" should be a word that just becomes banned in this Forum. The single most important ingredient, every living thing should work on attaining is STILLNESS; not enlightenment, because enlightenment will never be attained without STILLNESS.
So everytime we are emotionally attached to "anything" we are that much further from STILLNESS which makes us that much further from "Enlightenment".
It's my opinion - I am not claiming to be a teacher, or enlightened, I am claiming my opinion and request that my opinion; doesnt create an egotistical post on how I should feel or think.
Living in Love & Light
Nancy |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 08:52:03 AM
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| Yes - great post, Weaver. Something I've wondered about enlightenment is if it's possible to hang onto negative patterns of behaviour once one has reached a level of enlightenment. Say that a seeker has a really annoying (but harmless) habit of mooching off his friends...whenever he goes out with them, he never seems to have enough money to cover his share of the bill. Or let's say someone is a compulsive talker - she can't help herself, and talks incessantly when she's around others. It's hard to imagine an enlightened person carrying these annoying traits, as we tend to think of enlightened beings as embodying perfection. Naturally that can't be true. But if nothing really changes except perception, does an inconsiderate person, upon enlightenment, remains inconsiderate? |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 09:03:24 AM
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There is a Zen saying, "Before Enlightenment, we chop wood carry water, after Enlightenment, we chop wood carry water." What is the difference? The tasks are the same. The need is the same. Who is chopping? Who is carrying water? Another Zen proverb says, "After enlightenment, the laundry." Get it? Nothing changes. Everything changes. Nothing, everything--they are identical in the Zen world-view. Enlightenment is nothing more or less than the acceptance of the underlying paradoxes of existence. The true nature of life is Nothingness. However, it is not an empty Nothingness, but one which is filled with fullness... And it's totally correct to say that all of this kind of discussion can be nothing but semantic games--without the personal experience, what is the content? Besides, this "Enlightenment" which all seekers speak of is not a destination we arrive at, but rather a door we pass through. It is not the end of our path, but rather an important and highly recognizable series of mileposts on that path. When the Buddha was asked what was the difference, he replied only, "I am awake." The word, "Buddha" means simply, "One who is awake." When we awaken to our true nature, we also become the Buddha--we live our Buddha-nature. We still chop wood, carry water, wash laundry and discipline our kids. Our Buddha-nature, however, sits back silently and remains amused at this constant play.
Michael |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 10:51:45 AM
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What meg asks happens to be a question I am currently discussing in another forum as well! There is an argument there, that the "shadow" in Jungean meaning - that is our suppressed thoughts and emotions that influence us from the unconscious, creating annoying behaviours - will still be left after enlightenment! Since we continue to create karma, and we continue to have feelings and thoughts (even if they are seen as objects) it is argued that we also continue to have blind spots!
I find that hard to swallow, since when every thought is not believed, and every feeling is allowed to flow freely through you and there is no personal attachment anylonger, there will be no more need to supress them and create more shadow. On the other hand, since we are always on a journey and never reach a final enlightened state I find it possible that we might always have some shadow left even after deep awakenings that continue to create annoying habits or seemingly irrational "non-enlightened behaviours"! For example, the phenomenon of awakened gurus that speak about celibacy and claim they are celibate and then are discovered in scandals to have had a vivid hidden sexlife could perhaps be a result of a such shadow that is hanging on???
The suggestion of the 'shadow surviving enlightenment' comes (according to the other discussion) from a pretty awake zen master, Genpo Roshi.
It could be that when awake... there's just awareness about what the shadow does, but it still does it!  |
Edited by - emc on May 13 2008 10:52:50 AM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 11:39:02 AM
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quote:
There is a Zen saying, "Before Enlightenment, we chop wood carry water, after Enlightenment, we chop wood carry water." What is the difference? The tasks are the same. The need is the same. Who is chopping? Who is carrying water? Another Zen proverb says, "After enlightenment, the laundry." Get it? Nothing changes. Everything changes. Nothing, everything--they are identical in the Zen world-view. Enlightenment is nothing more or less than the acceptance of the underlying paradoxes of existence. The true nature of life is Nothingness. However, it is not an empty Nothingness, but one which is filled with fullness... And it's totally correct to say that all of this kind of discussion can be nothing but semantic games--without the personal experience, what is the content? Besides, this "Enlightenment" which all seekers speak of is not a destination we arrive at, but rather a door we pass through. It is not the end of our path, but rather an important and highly recognizable series of mileposts on that path. When the Buddha was asked what was the difference, he replied only, "I am awake." The word, "Buddha" means simply, "One who is awake." When we awaken to our true nature, we also become the Buddha--we live our Buddha-nature. We still chop wood, carry water, wash laundry and discipline our kids. Our Buddha-nature, however, sits back silently and remains amused at this constant play.
Michael
We have people who have already chopped wood and carried water, and so it has changed, since we have homes, stoves, heaters, and running water, without having to necessarily labour ourselves. So the Zen perspective is benefiting from the self within others that continues to evolve with the times. (Same self). And so what weaver, and Etherfish, said is valid, since clarification of what the term means is different for each person. Luckily your Buddha nature can playfully observe the dreams of others, who have made your life that much easier to sit back and enjoy: 
Namaste:
VIL |
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eputkonen
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 11:45:58 AM
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David,
There are not two different Enlightenments. The Jnani and Bhakti both realize the same.
The topic is not about how to get there and what happens before Enlightenment...the original topic is what happens afterward. I answered...nothing changes.
Enlightenment is realizing who/what you are...and both Bhakti and Jnani have said you are Satchitananda. Once you realize, nothing changes. All seeking and becoming is over.
Namaste,
~ Eric Putkonen |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 12:03:46 PM
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VIL--you miss the point--"chop wood carry water" is not to be taken literally--of course, most people no longer literally do either, unless they may be on a camping trip. It means that whatever it was we did before, we still need to do after--whether that was to chop our wood, scrub the kitchen floors (mine currently do need to be done!) load the dishwasher, weed the garden, file the taxes, balance the checkbook, pay the bills, etc--the trivial performances of daily life remain the same. DOES ANYthing change then? Ahhh, details...
Michael |
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Wilder
12 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 12:12:11 PM
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Hi emc,
There is a good lesson by yogani that explains the difference between enlightenement and perfection. May be that will explain the shadow after enlightenment thing for you
http://www.aypsite.org/260.html
Once you become enlightened you are in light and can see what is good and what is bad much more clearly than before. But whether you choose the good or bad is still entirely upto you. It is hard for me too to believe that you will have the left-over unconscious thought patterns affecting you after enlightenment. It is not a reversible process as far as I understand. But what about the spoilt gurus then? hmm...
- wilder
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 12:56:37 PM
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Hi,
Well I can't go along with the concept that nothing changes as we are 'changing' each time we meditate.In our reality of life we certainly are.A play on words like , 'no you are just realising who you really are' does not wash as we still feel different and act differently in our daily lives.Yes , I realise someone will reply with we are not actually changing.
L&L
Dave |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 1:22:15 PM
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There are not two different Enlightenments. The Jnani and Bhakti both realize the same.
Eric, the meaning of words is not pre-given, which is what I've been saying from the beginning of the thread. There are any number of meaningful referents for the word 'enlightenment', not just two. As has been pointed out in the thread a number of times, crossing terms in discussions is to be avoided. If you impose your own definitions on people who are operating from different ones, you'll end up making corrections to what other people are saying which are not really substantial, just semantic word-games when you scratch the surface.
The topic is not about how to get there and what happens before Enlightenment...the original topic is what happens afterward. I answered...nothing changes.
Eric, there are possibly ambiguities in the original question -- I would have thought it meant (i) 'what changes after enlightenment (relative to before)', in other words, what changes for the person in transition --- but you seem to be operating as if it means (ii) 'what changes after enlightenment (just changes at all)'. Did you really think that was the question he was asking?
Even if you genuinely think that (ii) is the meaning of this person's question, I don't know how you get 'nothing at all' for an answer. Almost everything is changing all the time, so I'd say the best answer to this question is 'a lot'. If you change the question still further, surely you will arrive at a question whose answer is 'nothing at all', but whose question is that?
Once you realize, nothing changes. All seeking and becoming is over.
If you're granting that, you're granting that a lot has changed for the person in the transition from from before enlightenment to after; in other words, surely you'll agree with me that the answer to the (i) is also 'a lot'. Perhaps we're in agreement about some of these things after all.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 13 2008 3:08:48 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 3:56:46 PM
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Wilder, thanks but that lesson doesn't cover this topic at all. Since I have gotten to know Bernie Prior I have lost all illusions about "the perfect divine". This is more about... what is operating? (And the advaita answer "the stillness" or "That" is not taken for an answer! ) When Yogani in the lesson mentions "In this earth life, everything is a mixture of light and shadow", what is operating the shadow? Is it the Jungean shadow meant here - repressed thoughts and emotions - or is it just meant "up and down" in a more general sense? If Yogani would like to comment it would be great, if not - what does others think?
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eputkonen
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 5:58:02 PM
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David,
I've granted you too much already in attempting to convey the point, and in doing so find further from the mark than ever.
Namaste,
~ Eric Putkonen |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 6:51:57 PM
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Eric, I suggest you just don't approach it as if there is something for you to 'grant' us at all. Instead, think more in terms of giving us our due.
I've explained it up there. It's solid.
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 7:22:23 PM
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yeah, eric, honestly, I suggest you just join in the fun, be human for once. I'm like you, I like pointing to nothing, but I've learned a thing or two about that, and one is acknowledging that... I'm not enlightened, and neither are most of the people I'll deal with, and so always pointing to nothing doesn't help others or myself. It's just avoiding the something that's going on here and now. I can always rely on nothing... but there's nothing there to rely on, so might as well go into something haha.
Honestly, enlightenment... I don't even speak of it in daily life, I mean, it comes up, but it comes up in my being human and other's being human, in the normality of all life, in the search, in becoming the question instead of always pointing to nothing. You're a good pointer, you've got a nice "zen facade" but... you hit one side, explore the other side for a little. Bring your nothing to something instead of just "nothing nothing nothing". I almost said it weeks ago, but it sounds to me like you're avoiding something by facing nothing. Nothing may seem perfect, but it's found in all somethings. You know that, just look at the other side or something, nothing gets boring haha. |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 10:02:55 PM
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O.K.
Now we need to get somebody in here who is truly enlightened to set us all straight!
Who's up for that?
(I just felt this thread needed a touch more humor. I hope I succeeded a little.) |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 10:33:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by eputkonen
David,
snip . . .
Once you realize, nothing changes. All seeking and becoming is over.
Namaste,
~ Eric Putkonen
If all seeking and becoming is over, then there was a time when it was not over, hence a change has occured at the point of realization; a change in perception.
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emc,
I think the shadow will tend to fade away upon further enlightenment for a couple of reasons.
One is the outpouring love would make one more empathetic.
Two, an enlightened person would tend to watch his own behavior instead of getting involved in it, and this would tend to minimize destructive habits.
Having said this, what constitutes a personality is an interesting mixture of dark and light, so it is likely that some traits would hang on.
Also, I was about to start another topic on this: God sometimes makes things happen that have the exact outcome you wanted, but don't necessarily make you look good. It's like he couldn't care less about your ego! This has happened several times to me lately.
So it's possible that some stories that make a guru look bad may not be true, but may be serving some other purpose we don't know about.
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What does NOT change after enlightenment
