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jellyfish
12 Posts |
 Posted - May 01 2008 : 11:26:28 AM
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I have a question to spark of some debate. Please tell me if this is posted in the wrong section...
I don't want to live a life of Bliss and Ecstacy but die unenlightened. Is greater happiness always a movement towards enlightenment? If so, is this because happiness is the opposite of what the ego/small identity needs to perpetuate itself? Can generating bliss become an addiction and actually become a trap that stops people from going all the way?
I am grateful for any thoughts on this subject. cheers  |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2008 : 2:02:14 PM
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hells yeah bliss can become an addiction. I think it's like one of those things that's gotta be transcended too. It's sorta like "alright, my ego is fed any happy now, so now let's take that last step".
Greater happiness, to me, is just a question that matters not when dealing with enlightenment. Consciousness is, but consciousness is that one thing that we can't really speak of. Happiness on the other hand... it implies a certain duality. Happyness=unhapyness, can't have one without the other.
I mean... we can start defining happyness in relation to enlightenment. What if happiness in that context simply means being in touch with the one who watches. Aka... the content watched matters not so much as the watcher. And then you can be happy or sad, angry... or "Peaceful" and it matters not because it's just content, you're happy just to watch it even though the content might be "anger" or "sadness" or whatever.
To me, "greater happiness" just comes with acceptance, even if you're greatly "unhappy". Sorta like... if you can see the great unhapiness as beautiful in of itself.
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Steve
277 Posts |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2008 : 4:06:20 PM
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Hi Jellyfish,
Bliss is one of the conditions of enlightenment. Other conditions of enlightenment are freedom, joy, peace, divine love, and grace. If any of those things are missing, then you know you are not yet enlightened. These are not the only conditions of enlightenment... there are a few more, but they certainly make up a good foundation.
As Divineis mentioned, there is a big difference between happiness and bliss. Bliss comes when you no longer need to be happy, and no longer have any aversion to sorrow. Happiness and sorrow are transcended through yoga. Bliss is not transcended and never can be, as it’s our original condition. Develop bliss in your life whenever you can and all the rest will follow.
Christi
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jellyfish
12 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2008 : 9:40:22 PM
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I suppose my real question whether there is any truth to a new age concept I heard whereby you "follow your bliss" as Joseph Campblee would say and the happier you are the more you are in your groove. Would this mean that happiness is like the accelerator towards your goal which may move through worldy goals or possibly straight to enlightenment if your at that stage?
Thanks for those links Steve, they were good. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2008 : 11:36:10 PM
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I think enlightenment is a word the ego can latch on to, and decide that something is lacking and thereby perpetuate the habitual feeling of incompleteness.
if you get into the groove of twice daily practices, you can easily reach a sequence where you no longer feel anything is missing, even though you know that the future will bring even better things.
Then you don't worry about whether you are enlightened or not because you know you are doing exactly what you need in the present. If your body, mind, and spirit are in alignment in the now, you don't need anything else. |
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eputkonen
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - May 02 2008 : 10:24:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jellyfish
Is greater happiness always a movement towards enlightenment? If so, is this because happiness is the opposite of what the ego/small identity needs to perpetuate itself? Can generating bliss become an addiction and actually become a trap that stops people from going all the way?
Yes, bliss can become an addiction and become a trap.
Watch the wording, "can generating bliss...."...who generates? The ego of course...that is what perpetuates the ego. Thinking you (the ego) can do something...generate bliss...get greater happiness...etc.
There is nothing you can do...there is nothing to do...you are Bliss. You are Satchitananda...ananada is bliss.
Namaste,
~ Eric Putkonen |
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markern
Norway
171 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2008 : 06:42:35 AM
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As I understand it what you need to do in order to get through the blissfull Jhana states in budhist meditation and get all the way to enlightenment is to give up your attatchement to what you are experiencing. The danger is that these and other blissfull states feel so good that it is extreemly interesting to just give them up and let whatever happens happens. There is also so much interesting imagery and funny stuff going on in some of these states that you just want to stay there and observe the cool stuff that`s happening. it is also a place were you can easily develop siddhis and you might just get caught up in that.
I think the danger of many of the paths that rely primarily on cultivating chi and prana is that they often do not have enough meditation to develop non attatchment and therefore just fall in love with their sensations and good fealings. They might then get to the doorstepp of enlightenment but never properly to it. Another danger of this is that you start buidling an internal world of good feelings that cut you of from the world and become happy, cold and distant. I`ve seen and heard about that happening to many spiritual people. Especialy in the chi/prana focused systems and therefore especialy in taoist systems. Budhism puts very little emphasis on taløking about bliss and gives little value to extatic states. Not becuase budhist practices do not foster these states but becuase the more you are attatched to them the less likely you are to get further than them ( and get to them in the fiorst place). Many schools also downplay enlightenment itself. When people get enlightened they might actualy just be told "oh that`s nice, now go wash the dishes". |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2008 : 1:13:03 PM
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Since I practice rather extensively within a Buddhist context I'd like to address some comments that state that "Buddhism doesn't place emphasis on bliss" and that "Bliss is addictive".
These opinions have been expounded by the various commentarial-based Vipassana traditions, that sprung up well after the Buddha's death, as they place more emphasis on the development of Insight. However, if one examines the Sutta Pitaka of the Pali Canon - which is considered by scholars to be the oldest extant record of the Buddha's teachings - one will see that the Buddha did place great emphasis Bliss within the context of what he called Samma-Samadhi (right absorption) and the practice strategy that he referred to as the "Noble Eightfold Path".
As far as Bliss being the object of an addiction, I hardly see this happening since the type of Bliss the Buddha was speaking of only arises as a result of the relinquishing of sensual pleasures. It seems that some people have confused sensual pleasure with non-sensual pleasure when they expound the "Bliss addiction" theory.
I'd even go so far as to say that the more Bliss that one experiences in meditation the further along the stages of Enlightenment one actually is.
I'll post some Sutta quotes later to support my assertions.
Peace and Bliss
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Edited by - Nirodha on May 22 2008 1:26:19 PM |
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markern
Norway
171 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2008 : 2:05:15 PM
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| I agree with you that the more bliss you experience the more likely it is that you are advanced on the path. However, I think it is pretty clear that being attatched to non sensual pleasures is possible and undisarable. Attatchement to anything is. What I have read several times is that to get from one Jhana state to another what you have to do is become non attatchedto the particular qualities of that Jhana. When you do you jump to the next. But I am no expert on this so maybe you can teach me something new. |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2008 : 01:00:54 AM
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Hi markern,
Since you've been told by someone that attachment to the Bliss of meditation is undesirable I'll just post these quotes from the Sutta Pitaka for your consideration then:
Pasadika Sutta (DN 29)- The Delightful Discourse
24.2 [Buddha]: "There are, Cunda, these four kinds of life devoted to pleasure, which are conducive to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to tranquility, to realization, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. What are they? First a monk detached from sense-desires, detached from unwholesome mental states, enters and remains in the first jhana...the fourth jhana, which is beyond pleasure and pain, and purified by equanimity and mindfulness."
"These are the four kinds of life devoted to pleasure, which are entirely conducive to disenchantment, to cessation, to tranquility, to realization, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. So, if wanderers from other sects should say that the followers of the Sakyan are addicted to these four forms of pleasure seeking, they should be told: "Yes," for they would be speaking correctly about you, they would not be slandering you with false or untrue statements."
25. Then such wanderers might ask: "Well then, those who are given to these four forms of pleasure-seeking - how many fruits, how many benefits can they expect?" And, you should reply: "They can expect four fruits, four benefits. What are they? The first is when a monk by destruction of three fetters has become a Stream-Winner, no more subject to rebirth in lower worlds, firmly established, destined for full enlightenment; the second is when a monk by the complete destruction of three fetters and the reduction of greed, hatred and delusion, has become a Once-Returner, and having returned once more to this world, will put an end to suffering; the third is when a monk, by the destruction of the corruptions in this very life has, by his own knowledge and realization, attained Arahantship, to the deliverance of heart and through wisdom. Such are the four fruits and the four benefits that one given to these four forms of pleasure-seeking can expect."
Translated from the Pali by Maurice Walshe, Wisdom Publications, Boston 1987, 1995
As for jumping from one Jhana state to the next, I've found that all I need do is to relinquish the various aspects of my psychophysiology and I move from one state to the next in due time. While I do agree that it's very beneficial to view Jhana with non-attachment, I have not found that the more one dwells in Jhana the more one becomes attached to it. And, I haven't found that there's even a potential to become attached to it as Jhana slowly burns away all attachments and hindrances.
Kind regards
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Edited by - Nirodha on May 25 2008 03:43:12 AM |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2008 : 5:11:05 PM
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Bliss makes it easy to realize what you really are. but or sure, it is not the end. Therefore, dont worry. Having fear of "possibly being attached to bliss" is just a mindgame, because bliss is the sure ego-death. And ego is the illusionary mindidentification. And when bliss arises, you can still watch the bliss and even the mind attached to the bliss. Watching alone will bring the change to the next step.
But hey, are you joking? Having found, what one really is needs an according celebration ;) So enjoy it. Once reached that, all the rest will follow easily. |
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jellyfish
12 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2008 : 8:40:52 PM
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"But hey, are you joking? Having found, what one really is needs an according celebration ;) So enjoy it. Once reached that, all the rest will follow easily."
lol, yeah. Its funny how you create these problems for yourself way before they are even relevant. Some say you do this because you are planning to get caught in those particluar traps.
The mind creates problems because it thinks the lack is out there in a world that needs to be fixed. |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2008 : 08:02:10 AM
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| I constantly create problems. The intonation is focused on "I" ;). That's how it is, but even this can be observed. Having fear of oneself creating problems can also be observed. The mind is not the problem, if it is observed. Then the heart flowers and the body loughes. And the biggest question is, who is identified with all this. Try to find that one. |
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Bliss but no elightenment?
