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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 2:12:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nirodha
Hi David,
I agree with you about the heavy-handedness.
My best teachers would always encourage me to explore for myself, to develop critical thinking and logical reasoning, to ask them questions, and to disagree with them if I found it necessary to do so. And, the worst one's never encouraged these things, and would become abusive if I didn't agree with their way of thinking.
If I went to a teacher that told me I could only study their material, and no others, they would cease being my teacher at that very instance.
Kind regards
I agree with this wholeheartedly, and believe that a good indicator of cult-like activity is the insistence of ANYTHING: You MUST believe this, you CANNOT read that, etc. Free will is woven into every spiritual tradition that I know of, so it makes no sense that its teachers would obliterate that. |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 3:18:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
The teachings that I've received thus far are crystal clear, and have provided the missing link on my spiritual path: dealing with the Mind.
Hello Meg,
Most tibetan sects (Kagyupa, Sakyapa, Gelugpa, Nyagma, Bon Po, Rime,...) provide skillful means to deal with the real nature of the Mind so it is not only NKT. Hence my suggestion is that you need to find other criterias to select one school.
Albert |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 3:51:05 PM
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Meg said:
What do you think about attending lectures given by a sect or branch of Buddhism (or any spiritual tradition) that may have some questionable motives or beliefs? Do you think this is playing too close to the fire? Just curious about your thoughts on this.
From what I know of you Meg, you have some natural defenses against cultic situations. One of the biggest defenses of all is simply in not finding them attractive, but there are others. I don't see a huge risk in your actually getting deeply bound up in the bad situation. I think you would pull back.
The problem though is that you would lose something in the process. You may have a relationship with a good teacher, for example, from which you would eventually have to pull away.
Is it possible to benefit from the teachings of a group, and to remain untouched by the rift in its underbelly?
I think it's possible to survive the underbelly. But it's better still to be in a situation free from it if you can. Think of it like any other situation you pursue in your life. If you saw a great career opportunity in it, you might put up with a job situation which is partly toxic. But if you could find an opportunity as good, but without the toxicity, that's better still.
Is it possible, I wonder, to EVER find a teacher/community/spiritual tradition that's without flaws? Isn't that like looking for a perfect partner? (Admittedly, murder and treason are hard to sweep under the rug...)
You've really answered your own question well, in an implicit way. No, perfection can't be found, whether that's in partners, teachers, bosses etc. But how bad is too bad? Where do you draw the line? What can you ignore? Use your instinct as well as your intellect.
David, you may be speaking generally, but in the lectures I haven't heard any mention of exclusivity regarding the reading of other books. However, their bookstore carries only Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's books and tapes, which I think is a negative indicator, as you say.
I think I read somewhere that they eventually forbid even the reading of other spiritual teachers. And you have said yourself in the beginning that they prohibit other spiritual practices.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 5:47:53 PM
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quote:
Hello Meg,
Most tibetan sects (Kagyupa, Sakyapa, Gelugpa, Nyagma, Bon Po, Rime,...) provide skillful means to deal with the real nature of the Mind so it is not only NKT. Hence my suggestion is that you need to find other criterias to select one school.
Albert
Any recommendations or warnings? Anyone? I've been sect-hopping for a while and am getting weary of it.  I just want to find a nice, quiet little cult and settle in for a while.  |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 6:02:59 PM
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quote:
meg: Any recommendations or warnings? Anyone? I've been sect-hopping for a while and am getting weary of it. I just want to find a nice, quiet little cult and settle in for a while.
LOLOLOLOL
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Mar 23 2008 6:11:53 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 8:07:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
Any recommendations or warnings? Anyone? I've been sect-hopping for a while and am getting weary of it. I just want to find a nice, quiet little cult and settle in for a while.
Ha! "A little cult of my own to call home"!
But.....why the group-seeking? Maybe it's just me, but AYP has really tilted me to a strongy guru-within perspective, to the point of whatever impulse I previously felt to find likeminded sangha (let alone teacher) has really fallen off. Sure, everyone's different, but can you put your finger on what it is in your practice that feels lacking and that a community might fill? I don't ask in an accusatory way, not trying to put you on defensive. I'm just trying to relate (hey, if you're persuasive enough, maybe we'll all go join, too!). |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 11:55:40 PM
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I'm not necessarily jonesing for a cult or group. (No pun intended). I prefer solitude, truth be told, but at this time in my life it's not so good for me. I could explain, but I don't think the forum would benefit much. Simply put, I need to interact, and the internet is (for me) a mere simulacrum of human connection.
But it's much bigger than that, and maybe a different discussion altogether. I'm drawn (like a magnet!) to discussions of the Mind. When this teacher speaks, I open up. You know how they say that when the student is ready, the guru appears? That's how it felt when I first discovered Yogani's lessons. The clarity with which he wrote about energy and its cultivation made me feel like I was reading something I already knew, even tho I'd never heard it before. A whole world opened up for me effortlessly because of his writings and the timing of my discovering them. That's how it is with this teacher. When talks about the Mind, it has the same ring of familiarity, and a deep sense that the time is ripe to lose my Mind. :)
Thanks for asking! |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2008 : 12:56:39 AM
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Dear Meg,
I kindly suggest you read this excellent book "Wonders of the Natural Mind" written by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche who is a Tibetan Bon Po master.
You might also find this work of interest for your quest:
http://vajranatha.com
I don't know or practice AYP but wonder if the last Yogani's book "Self Inquiry" does not reach that ultimate level (Dzogchen or Mahamudra), look on the second part of this thread:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3324
Please note my path lies inside the triangle of shamanism, tantrism and non-duality awareness.
Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Mar 24 2008 04:26:56 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2008 : 07:35:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
Dear Meg,
I kindly suggest you read this excellent book "Wonders of the Natural Mind" written by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche who is a Tibetan Bon Po master.
I read it, and agree that it's an excellent book. I'd definitely need a teacher if I chose to go that path.
quote:
I don't know or practice AYP but wonder if the last Yogani's book "Self Inquiry" does not reach that ultimate level (Dzogchen or Mahamudra)
I just received that book from Amazon and look forward to reading it. His lessons on Self Inquiry are excellent. I also get a lot out of Adyashanti's writings on S.I. and nondualism.
quote:
Please note my path lies inside the triangle of shamanism, tantrism and non-duality awareness.
Sounds pretty interesting. What in particular draws you to AYP if you don't practice it? Just curious.
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2008 : 10:39:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
Sounds pretty interesting. What in particular draws you to AYP if you don't practice it? Just curious.
The answer is there as I suggested to read before:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....&whichpage=2
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Steve
277 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2008 : 11:50:42 AM
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Hi Meg,
A number of years ago I had the opportunity to study with Lama Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche off and on for a couple of years. In my experience, Lama Tenzin is a wonderful person and teacher, one for whom I have the highest respect. The Ligmincha Institute in Virginia under Lama Tenzin's direction has formally acquired land and built a site where the Bon Po teachings are regularly offered.
More information about the Ligmincha Institute can be found at:
https://www.ligmincha.org/
From their web site: quote:
With the establishment in 1998 of the Serenity Ridge Retreat Center, Geshe Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's longtime vision of a North American home for Bon has been realized. Our residential retreat center is located 30 minutes south of Charlottesville in Nelson County, Va. Its nearly 20 acres rest atop a mountain ridge overlooking the Rockfish River Valley, with beautiful views of the surrounding Blue Ridge Mountains.
In our teaching hall (gompa) we are fortunate to have received teachings from many Bon masters including H.H. Lungtok Tenpai Nyima Rinpoche, H.E. Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, Geshe Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, Khenpo Tenpa Yungdrung Rinpoche, Ponlob Trinley Nyima Rinpoche, Chongtul Rinpoche, and Khyimsar Rinpoche.
Love and Light,
Steve
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Edited by - Steve on Mar 24 2008 11:06:07 PM |
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darrylc
Australia
9 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2008 : 01:33:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
Any recommendations or warnings? Anyone?
Hi meg,
You might want to have a look at the fpmt centres, they have dharma centres all over the world. It was started years ago by Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa as an attempt to preserve the Tibetan teachings. There are always classes on and I found their Discovering Buddism series invaluable to understand all of the differing schools, how they came to be and what buddism is all about. Took the confusion out of it for me.
http://www.fpmt.org
maybe there is a centre near you,
http://www.fpmt.org/centers/
regards
Darryl |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2008 : 3:19:35 PM
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I met with the Educational Director of the NKT (Manhattan Branch), and thought I'd write about it, in case anyone's interested. I'll do my best to remember his responses. He seemed to be a very open-minded, easy-going, answer-giving kind of guy, and generous with his time. I liked him. I told him my basic concerns about NKT and Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (GKG), and he said that he doesn't get asked about the controversy very often, but is acquainted with the rumors. He basically dismissed the articles as political agenda, and said that a lot of misinformation has been spread about NKT. He didn't know the origin of the rumors, only that they were not true. In his experience at NKT, there has never been an instance when he was forbidden to read other Buddhist texts, and he's a big fan of Chogyam Trungpa. So up until this point, his responses were pretty uninteresting - a general dismissal of all the hoopla surrounding NKT and GKG.
Then I brought up the subject of the Dalai Lama, and things got interesting. :) He was a little uncomfortable, and it seemed that he was holding back out of propriety. He said that NKT had nothing against the Dalai Lama, just as they had nothing against the Pope - they simply don't recognize him as their spiritual leader. He also mentioned that the Dalai Lama is mistakenly regarded as THE spiritual leader of all Buddhists, when in fact he is their political leader, and that's how the NKT regards him - as a political leader whose primary agenda is freedom for the Tibetans, and for that the NKT gives him all due respect.
Their problem with him is that he - the Dalai Lama - forbids the NKT to worship Dorje Shugden as the protector of their tradition. They feel that this is completely out of line, since they don't regard him as their spiritual teacher, and because the Dalai Lama also practiced Dorje Shugden worship as a young man, under his teacher Trijang Rinpoche, who was also GKG's teacher. This was a standard practice in the Gelugpa tradition, but for unknown reasons, the Dalai Lama decided that it was no longer acceptable, banned it as a practice, and that's when GKG decided to break away from the Dalai Lama and create the NKT.
I find this all to be pretty intriguing...why did the DL suddenly decide to ban the worship of Dorje Shugden? It would seem that this is the pivotal question, since that's precisely where the rift occurred. Apparently the Dalai Lama replaced Dorje Shugden with another wrathful deity just as bloodthirsty: Palden Lhamo (a female deity).
I've tried to report what I remember of the interview - if some of the facts are way out of whack please let me know. I'm going to take another look at the articles posted in this thread, but can anyone tell me why the Dalai Lama is opposed to Dorje Shugen? As far as I can tell, he's just one of legions of wrathful gods...why pick on him? |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2008 : 5:27:44 PM
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quote:
but can anyone tell me why the Dalai Lama is opposed to Dorje Shugen? As far as I can tell, he's just one of legions of wrathful gods...why pick on him?
Maybe he found this artistic rendition a bit disconcerting:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/images/ds01.jpg
VIL |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2008 : 5:48:55 PM
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Cool! Where do I sign up?!
But seriously, that's an interesting statue. Now I'll have to do some reading and look into this a bit. |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2008 : 02:49:01 AM
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Dear Meg,
Please read again my second answer to you in this thread. Yes what goes on is political difference but you might want to seriously consider my following advice. Most tibetan schools use protectors which in a way is shamanic approach (ally). Depending on how far you want to bring to surface your inconscious blockages, you will need very powerful protectors to not blow your channels. It happens the political struggle between Gelugpa and NKT has activated very powerful protectors which are in a mortal struggle. So either you follow NKT or you follow Gelupga (like FPMT under now Lama Zopa leadership continuing the work of Lama Thubten Yeshe) but never follow both otherwise you'll be in big trouble !
You see, this is the big difference between classical Hindu yoga practices not requiring protectors and tibetan systems or shamanic systems outside a tibetan context.
In Shakti, Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Apr 03 2008 06:30:54 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2008 : 09:14:36 AM
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Hi Albert - At this point my involvement with NKT isn't likely to go beyond attending the odd lecture. I like to be open-minded, but there's too much controversy for me to feel comfortable with it. But I've become interested in the intrigue, and particularly in the aura surrounding Dorje Shugden (great photo, VIL!) In the pantheon of Tibetan wrathful deities, why would the Dalai Lama single him out as evil, and then replace him with this gal: http://www.thangka.ru/gallery/ge_lhamo_b.html
The 'protector' part I'm not familiar with, but in the Hindu system there are scads of wrathful deities, such as Bhairava, that aspect of Shiva who cuts through egoic delusion. What ARE these beings? Symbols of latent powers in the unconscious? Energies to assist us in spiritual transformation? Actual gods and goddesses, like Zeus and Athena? Whatever they are, their wrath is directed at our tendency toward delusion, and thus are considered our allies in every respect. That's why I find it so interesting that the Dalai Lama has singled out Dorje Shugden as "evil". If this is true, how did he sneak into the Tibetan line-up of dieties? Why would the genuine deities allow an imposter into their midst? And why the enigma surrounding him?
I'm sure that my interest has gone beyond what's appropriate for the AYP forums, so I won't continue to post on the subject. But I REALLY appreciate all the input that I've gotten here - thanks everyone! :) |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2008 : 10:18:18 AM
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I think it is an interesting question, Meg. You have uncovered something in your search that wants to find some kind of an answer. I wonder if it might be easy enough to ask someone intimate with the Dalai Lama's work? Please keep us updated if you pursue this. |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2008 : 11:18:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
That's why I find it so interesting that the Dalai Lama has singled out Dorje Shugden as "evil". If this is true, how did he sneak into the Tibetan line-up of dieties? Why would the genuine deities allow an imposter into their midst? And why the enigma surrounding him?
Well, the question has been answered before in my posts or by the New York NKT director: political reasons not spiritual reasons.
Look at this way: both lineages (NKT or Gelugpa which corresponds to a split of an initial lineage) agree in their practice the need of a protector. As a said before, other tibetan sects (Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu, Bonpo, Rime,...) all use a protector but this protector might be different. So your question should rather be: do I need a protector in my spiritual practice then if yes, which one I feel connected.
Sorry to be so direct but i'm trying to help you through my personal experiences and acquaintances.
Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Apr 04 2008 12:08:05 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2008 : 08:44:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
Well, the question has been answered before in my posts or by the New York NKT director: political reasons not spiritual reasons.
So your question should rather be: do I need a protector in my spiritual practice then if yes, which one I feel connected.
Sorry to be so direct but i'm trying to help you through my personal experiences and acquaintances.
Albert
Direct works for me. But my question isn't "Do I need a protector in my spiritual practice." That's never been my question. My original question was "Anyone know anything about the NKT?" and I got a lot more response than I expected - incredibly helpful. Now I'm just curious about the central figure of Dorje Shugden, and why he was banned by the Dalai Lama as a Protector. Clearly it was for political reasons, but I want to know more about it, and the book you recommended will probably give me the answers I need. Thanks again for your directness and your help in this issue, Albert. |
Edited by - Manipura on Apr 04 2008 09:34:25 AM |
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Yoda
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2008 : 1:02:59 PM
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Uma doesn't like 'em, either, I bet....
LOL! |
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Kris
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2008 : 10:31:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
But my question isn't "Do I need a protector in my spiritual practice." That's never been my question. My original question was "Anyone know anything about the NKT?"
Hi Meg,
Protector practice holds a very important place in Tibetan Buddhism, so the point is relevant. I was closely involved with the NKT for many years and even before I had a clue about the whole issue, I felt uncomfortable with protector practices.
Whilst criticism of the NKT is, in the main, accurate most other Tibetan Buddhists are throwing stones whilst in the same greenhouse. They also emphasize unswerving guru yoga, worship of various deities, elaborate rituals and so on. In other words much of the criticism can be equally applied to Tibetan Buddhism as a whole. If that sort of thing floats your boat then go for it.
I feel that anyone wishing to investigate Buddhism should also check out the Pali suttas and teachings of the Theravadan school, in order to find out what the man, himself, taught (I didn't and paid a high price for my ignorance). Read around so that the NKT, or Tibetan perspective is not the only one you get. Perhaps you have already done this and are well informed, in which case please take my point as a general statement.
If you ever attend an NKT center you may be amazed at how little the adherents know about any other tradition. If you have an eclectic philosophy you will be expected to leave it at the door. That said, the NKT does deliver standard teachings in the tradition of Tsongkarpa so Geshe Kelsang does follow his tradition faithfully and where it not for the nasty spat with the Dali Lama he would doubtlessly be counted as a great asset.
namaste
kris |
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Ianca
1 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2008 : 2:53:51 PM
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Hi Meg, I came across your thread from a google news search on the New Kadampa Tradition which I do just to see what's going on "out there".
So far it seems all the replies have been from people from various spiritual traditions/backgrounds. I live in Florida, and originally came into contact with the NKT about 4 years ago when I was living in Australia. I know the teacher in NYC, and have heard him teach. Kadam Morten is a truly gifted and funny individual, you are very fortunate.
All these problems that have been coming up from your post and others' replies are not new, but I just wanted to give you my thoughts on the topic.
Yes it is true that people in our tradition don't encourage lots of different teachings/traditions in the same way you wouldn't mix different types of tea. If you have a nice blend or a pure blend you'd want to stick with that. I've been doing this for 4 years, and I've never heard that it is forbidden to study other traditions from anyone who has been teaching or involved for a while - meaning that I have heard that from people who don't really know what's going on, but not from teachers, although they probably won't encourage it either. There is nothing wrong with being a catholic and a Buddhist at the same time (from the Buddhist perspective).
I love the teachings, and my wife and I make it when we can, but it's been waaaaaaay less these days as we have a 5-month old kid now than when we were living in Oz. I'm 29 years old, so my practice of meditating everyday or trying to attend 1 or 2 teachings a week isn't the case anymore. Now-a-days I am mostly trying to put the advice into practice in dealing with our baby, my colleagues at work, etc. So your spiritual practice will be different for everybody depending on what you enjoy or want to take on.
It sounds like you are conflicted about the FP course, and I think that's a good thing. What a commitment does is require people to take a look and see how serious they are about studying, meditating and hearing teachings on Buddhist themes. The people who you find in them are committed to wanting to learn more because they have already experienced some type of benefit (otherwise they wouldn't be there or would have dropped out already). My recommendation would be to not worry about it, keep on going to the general classes and not stress about it. It'll still be there if you do decide it's for you. But I'd still go and sit in on one of the classes just to see.
The people I know in the NKT from all over the world are intelligent, independent, and sincere practitioners. People think for themselves, and most of them have drawn their own conclusions about the classes and teachings. No one is forcing anything.
It sounds like you've spoken with Morten already, but if not tell him what your thinking about or what you've been reading on these posts and ask for his advice. There are some valid points on this forum, and Buddha himself said to never accept anything just because he said it or he thinks its true, only accept it if its true for you.
I wish you the best and keep on questioning and in the end I hope you find what you are looking for. Remember there are no contradictions between outside practices and following these teachings.
Wishing Love, Ianca
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Yoda
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2008 : 12:06:31 PM
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In my limited understanding, I think the deal is that a protector is an ex-demon who has been converted to the dharma. Maybe the conversion didn't take completely or something. Or maybe it's just the Dalai Lama playing politics.
I know that there are passionate and vigorous differences between the schools and add politics to the mix and things can get rather volatile. The Karmapa debate is another example. |
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Kris
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2008 : 11:06:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Yoda
In my limited understanding, I think the deal is that a protector is an ex-demon who has been converted to the dharma. Maybe the conversion didn't take completely or something. Or maybe it's just the Dalai Lama playing politics.
I know that there are passionate and vigorous differences between the schools and add politics to the mix and things can get rather volatile. The Karmapa debate is another example.
Hi Yoda,
I guess we'll never know for sure but I can't help thinking that the whole controversy casts an ill light upon the system. Devotees are genuinely terrified of the powers of these beings. It's a level of fear and superstition that we have not seen in Europe since the days of witch hunting. I have personally witnessed a deity enter a Lama and it is an event which shook me to the core - I'll never forget it.
I've raised the issue with Tibetan Buddhists, who claim that all things are ultimately "empty" or the nature of "Buddha Mind". They deny that there is any actual duality attached to worship of such beings but the nature of this controversy demonstrates that the main players consider it to be literally a matter of life or death. They don't casually dismiss it in such a way. It's serious.
Anyone getting into Tibetan Buddhism should be 100% aware of this. If you can hack it, then all well and good. |
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New Kadampa Tradition and Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
