|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 09 2008 : 09:04:38 AM
|
Are any of you are familiar with the New Kadampa Tradition of Buddhism and its founder, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso? If so, I'd appreciate some feedback: what you think of the teachings, his approach to Buddhism, how it aligns with AYP, etc. I've been getting a lot out of the teachings on the mind. Specifically, what I've found is that while AYP provides a profound set of tools for purifying the nervous system, Buddhism (and the NKT in particular) offers the same for purifying the mind. It may be that AYP also does this, but what has drawn me to NKT is that the mind is the focus of purification; it teaches how to methodically alter its negative patterns. I've found that it doesn't matter how purified my nervous system is if my mind is stuck in the rut of its old patterns. Ideally, I'd like to be purifying both at the same time.
My concern is that I've read some negative stuff on Geshe Kelsang and NKT and am not sure how much weight to give it. Apparently when you sink deeper into the teachings (which I'm thinking of doing), you're required to make a commitment to the course of study, which is fine, but I've read that is becomes cult-like after that. (I don't know any more about that, unfortunately). I do know that there is an exclusivity to it, meaning that you're expected to meditate and do ONLY the practices as outlined by NKT, which is no good for me, as I'm partial to the "ayam" of AYP, spinal breathing, etc. I already feel a little like a traitor when I sit in the back row at their center and focus on the "ayam" while we meditate.
Any information or opinions much appreciated. |
|
|
selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2008 : 1:49:33 PM
|
| Thanks, Albert. I saw that post when I did a search on Geshe Kelsang. I was hoping that Kadak would see my post and give his or her feedback... |
 |
|
|
selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2008 : 2:54:13 PM
|
Hey Meg,
To answer your initial question, you must know that all tibetan major sects (i.e. Bon Po, Gelugpa, Nygma, Kagyu,...) request commitment (vows, refuge,...) so it is not only NKT but rather the equivalent of self-pace strategy in AYP for example.
From what I know, NKT comes more from a political clash in Tibet plus it is the only sect with ONE Tibetan inside.
Please note I'm using sect which is OK whereas a cult would be a problem !
Hope this helps, Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Mar 09 2008 3:20:07 PM |
|
|
|
Yoda
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 02:29:33 AM
|
Meg,
This is a hotly contested subject.
The thing about the Tibetan tradition is that you have to jump through a lot of hoops to get the next bit of info. It's not all there up front like in AYP. So you have to do the preliminaries, etc. I, personally, could never get past the preliminary practices, so I couldn't tell you for sure what's behind the next curtain. And this is the case with all the traditions in Tibet with the possible exception of some born in the USA type teachers. There's a Kagyu guy in LA... I'm forgetting his name at the moment, but he'd be an example of that.
Now for the NKT... My sympathies are with the Dalai Lama as I like the guy on a personal level. I haven't met him, but I have high fived him, so that's that as far as I'm concerned.
Yours,
Yoda
hopefully I got the right link. If not just search for the wiki on the nkt for the basic outline of the controversy:
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach...k&cd=1&gl=us |
|
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 09:09:58 AM
|
| Thanks, Yoda and Albert. I saw the Wiki listing, and the controversy seems mired in issues which don't concern me too much. I'm going to dig a little deeper into the teachings by taking a class, which requires a one year commitment. I believe that I'm spiritually mature enough that if it starts to feel 'mind bending' in some way, I'll be able to discern it and back out. One good sign is that the charge for the class is surprisingly inexpensive. I know that some traditions (and cults) charge impossible fees to dole out their wisdom, and then use all kinds of mind tactics to justify it. |
|
|
|
selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2008 : 12:24:54 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by meg
One good sign is that the charge for the class is surprisingly inexpensive. I know that some traditions (and cults) charge impossible fees to dole out their wisdom, and then use all kinds of mind tactics to justify it.
Hello Meg,
If I may suggest something from my personal experience: an authentic master will never charge money and will never say he is a master. Of course, it is always good giving a donation to support an authentic master in this plane of existence.
Albert |
|
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2008 : 3:59:06 PM
|
That's a great point, Albert. I'm immediately suspicious of anyone who tells me that s/he is enlightened, for the same reasons you bring up. And I think the donation system is a good one when possible. (I'm sure Yogani would have a lot to say on this). But living in today's world, is it possible to run an organization (in this case, a Buddhist Center in ludicrously expensive downtown Manhattan) without charging for admission? It's not an unreasonable amount of money that they're asking, and the class is a course on the fundamentals of Buddhism. Thus far there are no claims to guru-dom, although there is great respect for the founder, Geshe Kelsang, who apparently has 'awakened', and the course uses his books as the foundation for its teaching.
Mind you, I'm not defending them, as I don't know yet the caliber of the teaching; I'm simply trying to look at it realistically. I don't think that charging for one's time and expenses it unreasonable. On the other hand, a friend of mine is attending a Byron Katie 4-day retreat next month, and paying an unGodly $4,000! Now THAT bears some scrutiny, imo. Enlightenment for the Affluent?
In any case, it's recommended that potential students attend the first 3 classes to determine whether or not it's something that they're interested in. After that, a 1-yr. commitment is required. |
|
|
|
selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2008 : 10:55:47 PM
|
Have you already read books by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso ?
Albert
|
|
|
|
Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2008 : 12:06:02 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by meg
Are any of you are familiar with the New Kadampa Tradition of Buddhism and its founder, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso? If so, I'd appreciate some feedback: what you think of the teachings, his approach to Buddhism, how it aligns with AYP, etc. I've been getting a lot out of the teachings on the mind. Specifically, what I've found is that while AYP provides a profound set of tools for purifying the nervous system, Buddhism (and the NKT in particular) offers the same for purifying the mind. It may be that AYP also does this, but what has drawn me to NKT is that the mind is the focus of purification; it teaches how to methodically alter its negative patterns. I've found that it doesn't matter how purified my nervous system is if my mind is stuck in the rut of its old patterns. Ideally, I'd like to be purifying both at the same time.
My concern is that I've read some negative stuff on Geshe Kelsang and NKT and am not sure how much weight to give it. Apparently when you sink deeper into the teachings (which I'm thinking of doing), you're required to make a commitment to the course of study, which is fine, but I've read that is becomes cult-like after that. (I don't know any more about that, unfortunately). I do know that there is an exclusivity to it, meaning that you're expected to meditate and do ONLY the practices as outlined by NKT, which is no good for me, as I'm partial to the "ayam" of AYP, spinal breathing, etc. I already feel a little like a traitor when I sit in the back row at their center and focus on the "ayam" while we meditate.
Any information or opinions much appreciated.
Hi meg,
Tibetan Buddhism in general requires one to make all sort of commitment vows. Also, it's rather authoritarian in nature, with it's emphasis on the Guru, and a closed system (i.e. exclusive) to those that don't undertake the vows.
By the way, I've practice in a Buddhist context for a number of years now, so I have a bit of experience with most of the Buddhist sects.
The main problem with NKT, that most orthodox Tibetan Buddhists seem to have, is that it emphasizes devotional worship of a particular deity that's considered "evil." Whether it actually is or not I've no idea, nor do I really care since I don't practice in NKT's context.
As for accusations of NKT being a cult, I don't know if these are groundless or not. However, with the sect being headed by one charismatic individual - Geshe Kelsang - the possibility of it being a cult is strong, in my opinion.
Here's an article written by a cult watch group that you might find useful:
Worries as Buddhist sect spreads in North - Residential centre to be opened
http://www.rickross.com/reference/nkt/nkt1.html
You might find this website, constructed by ex-NKT members, useful also:
New Kadampa? What you wont read in their bookshops
http://www.newkadampa.com/
In regards to eliminating negative thought patterns: Meditation does help a lot, particularly if one has advanced to the point to being able to attain Samadhi (meditative absorption) with ease. Also, being aware of what the mind is doing at all times, and altering one's thinking when it goes negative, will help tremendously - Granted, it requires constant and diligent effort on one's part, but, it is doable. The Buddha referred to this sort of focused awareness as Sati, which is commonly translated as "Mindfulness" in English.
By the way, I don't agree that a Master or Enlightened individual would not announce it. However, those that do are sometimes mistaken, but, not always. If one examines some of the oldest extant writings of all the major religions one will find numerous examples of individuals announcing their mastery and/or their own enlightenment. These people were always rather matter of fact about it though, and not boastful in anyway.
I do understand that some people are very hesitate to announce any sort of spiritual attainment: Because the moment that one does one leaves one's self open to someone - sometimes a lot of people - that gets jealous and wants to discredit them. I've even experienced this myself when I've openly written about my experiences with Meditative Absorption on several Buddhist forums.
This sort of harassment and character defamation can be very persistent and difficult to endure. We only need examine the lives of Jesus - who was murdered - and the Buddha - who was falsely accused of all sorts of misdeeds - for examples of this.
Kind regards
|
Edited by - Nirodha on Mar 19 2008 01:58:17 AM |
|
|
|
selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2008 : 12:18:25 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nirodha
By the way, I don't agree that a Master or Enlightened individual would not announce it. However, those that do are sometimes mistaken, but, not always.
Hello Nirodha,
I don't know if your are answering my previous post but just in case, I feel reminding the main point of my post was that an authentic master will never charge money.
Peace, Albert |
|
|
|
Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2008 : 01:50:28 AM
|
Hi Albert,
I wasn't really answering your post. I was just voicing my opinion on the subject of announcing attainments.
The whole issue of charging money for teachings is a rather complex one, particularly in Western cultures where everything has an expense associated with it. And, it's rather difficult for one to survive without funding of some sort in the West, as people there are less likely to donate money for spiritual causes.
While I personally would never patronize a spiritual centre or teacher that asked for a fee, I'm aware that many of them do. And, even if they don't, they usually request donations or sell various items in order to fund themselves.
Kind regards
|
Edited by - Nirodha on Mar 19 2008 03:32:00 AM |
|
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2008 : 09:30:58 AM
|
Interesting information - thanks for your post, Nirodha, and the links. There seems to be some cause for concern when getting involved with NKT, although probably not at the superficial level. I'm not comfortable with the idea of being goaded into giving excessive money either, but I understand the need to pay their rent. Which they're doing quite well, as I now understand. I had a conversation with a long-time practitioner the other night, who told me that the Manhattan branch of NKT is currently looking to buy a permanent home, and their budget is $3,000,000! Which in Manhattan isn't going to get them much more than a good-sized loft, but I was impressed with the figure. Fwiw, they charge $15 for every lecture, and there are 2 a week, always well attended. I went to a Unitarian-type of church sometime in the last year, and was appalled when a good 30 minutes was spent in recognizing those in the church community who had agreed to give 10% of their paychecks directly to the church. This was not a subtle list of 'atta-boys'. The Pastor read off a name, and that person ran down to the front to high five the others - just like that old game show The Price is Right, complete with rousing musak. By the time all the names were read, a quarter of the church was down front, soaking in the standing ovation for their generosity. AND! The congregation was told that these good folks would reap financial and spiritual benefits for their contributions! Hoo boy. Never went there again.
Sorry for the long aside - just pointing out that mind- and wallet-control happens all over the spiritual spectrum.
You're right that there are times when it's appropriate that a Master announces his or her enlightenment, Nirodha. No hard and fast rules, but I think that writing about one's spiritual awakening and then having it discovered posthumously is quite different than the current craze of public announcements, book tours, and so on. I'm a big fan of Adyashanti, and am grateful that he went public with his awakening, as so many have benefited from his teachings. The public announcement route is more of a concern to me with those persons who aren't yet psychologically mature enough to handle the honor and curiosity that will inevitably follow. Then again, it may be a self-regulating process, as those who haven't the psychological maturity aren't likely to awaken. The most common situation, as I see it, is when someone has a riveting 'awakening', which is mind-blowing and life-changing, and they mistake that for Enlightenment.
Al - in answer to your question - no, haven't read one of Geshe Kelsang's books yet. I've leafed through a few. Maybe that would be a good place to start. |
|
|
|
selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2008 : 10:49:31 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by meg
Al - in answer to your question - no, haven't read one of Geshe Kelsang's books yet. I've leafed through a few. Maybe that would be a good place to start.
Hi Meg,
Yes, it might be a very good place to start since Geshe Kelsang Gyatso writes and explains very well these specific tibetan tantric yogas. I suggest you read in particular these 2 books:
- Clear light of Bliss
- Guide to Dakini Land
Of course, don't fall in the trap of thinking it is easy to practice the 6 yogas of Naropa and Mahamudra without an authentic master but his books provides more information than usual.
Albert
|
|
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2008 : 07:18:19 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
quote:
Originally posted by meg
Al - in answer to your question - no, haven't read one of Geshe Kelsang's books yet. I've leafed through a few. Maybe that would be a good place to start.
Hi Meg,
Yes, it might be a very good place to start since Geshe Kelsang Gyatso writes and explains very well these specific tibetan tantric yogas. I suggest you read in particular these 2 books:
- Clear light of Bliss
- Guide to Dakini Land
Of course, don't fall in the trap of thinking it is easy to practice the 6 yogas of Naropa and Mahamudra without an authentic master but his books provides more information than usual.
Albert
I'll do it. Thx for the suggestion. |
|
|
|
Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2008 : 9:27:14 PM
|
take a look at this, from newsweek: http://www.cesnur.org/press/Newsweek.htm
note that tony clifton is the actual name of a newsweek reporter (it's not just someone doing an Andy Kaufman).
Regardless of the murder allegation, Robert Thurman's thoughts on the sect (quoted in the article) are worth listening to. He's unquestionably the foremost english language authority on tibetan buddhism. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 21 2008 9:29:56 PM |
|
|
|
selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2008 : 11:19:45 PM
|
Hey,
You might want read this book to get the full general picture but it is important to cut the bias of the authors to access very valuable mystic tools to pathwork self-realization
http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/SDLE/Index.htm
Albert
|
|
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2008 : 08:33:06 AM
|
Great article, Jim. I'm reluctant to come to any conclusions on this, but the fact that NKT members were demonstrating in London against the Dalai Lama isn't a good sign. And I agree with you that Robert Thurman's opinion is persuasive on anything Tibetan. It doesn't look good, and I'm reconsidering my year-long commitment to the NKT foundation class. I can continue going to the evening lectures, which have been profound, and hope that one day I won't wake up to discover that my mind has been twisted into an NKT pretzel. Is it naive - vain? - to think that one is too smart to be duped by a cult?
The teachings that I've received thus far are crystal clear, and have provided the missing link on my spiritual path: dealing with the Mind. The leader of the Manhattan branch, who is extremely intelligent and a gifted teacher, explains NKT (and Geshe Kelsang) like so: He, GK, came to the West and saw that the culture was more curious and demanding than that of the East. Instead of doing what we're told by a teacher or guru, we want to know why, and if it makes sense, then we'll do it. GK embraced this quality, and set about translating Buddhism for the Western mind - the emphasis here on Mind, as we demand rational explanations. I have to say that he did a great job - the teachings are the clearest and most practical that I've encountered. It has a strong Jungian flavor, imo, and resonates on a deep level as being familiar, like something I already knew. That's the Buddhism talking, I realize, but I think that Geshe Kelsang has done a brilliant job at bringing it to a level that is accessible to the non-Eastern mind. Clearly there have been no sightings of Yellow Hats, blood thirsty gods, or back room plots, and I suspect that I could get WAY involved for many years and not encounter any of that.
In any case, the year-long foundation class starts this coming Monday, so I don't have long to make a decision as to whether I want to attend. The few people I've talked to who have taken the class say that it's phenomenal and that it changed their lives. I'd like to check it out, but all the articles that you guys have posted are very concerning. Decision pending...
Albert - that book looks REALLY interesting. Where can I get it? I have a hard time reading a book on the computer screen. It's not at Amazon. |
|
|
|
Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2008 : 09:54:52 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by meg
I agree with you that Robert Thurman's opinion is persuasive on anything Tibetan.
Uma doesn't like 'em, either, I bet.... |
|
|
|
selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2008 : 1:38:10 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by meg
Albert - that book looks REALLY interesting. Where can I get it? I have a hard time reading a book on the computer screen. It's not at Amazon.
It is a free book so you can just print it from the web and here you are.
As I said before, cut the bias of the authors so you can access very useful information that even the authors are not aware.
Albert |
|
|
|
Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 05:30:20 AM
|
Hi Meg,
quote:
On the other hand, a friend of mine is attending a Byron Katie 4-day retreat next month, and paying an unGodly $4,000! Now THAT bears some scrutiny, imo. Enlightenment for the Affluent?
I do hope Byron Katie hasn't fallen to the dark side, and become seduced by the twin enemies of fame and wealth. It would be a tragic loss for all of us. Maybe we could all say a quiet prayer for her.
Christi |
|
|
|
david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 10:03:52 AM
|
Meg said:
The teachings that I've received thus far are crystal clear, and have provided the missing link on my spiritual path: dealing with the Mind.
That may well be so. There are many untold riches in Tibetan Buddhism. Keep in mind though that someone cn be highly gifted in certain respects, while the stories of their deep flaws are still true.
I don't at all like what I see in this case. Looking for exclusivity is a terrible sign (and yes, some major yogic groups did and do it -- it's still a terrible sign). Can you imagine a friend who insisted that you don't have any other friends except them? Do you really think they are serving you in those demands for exclusivity?
|
|
|
|
Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 10:31:50 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
. Keep in mind though that someone cn be highly gifted in certain respects, while the stories of their deep flaws are still true.
Absolutely. Some of the most profound and insightful spiritual teachers were some of the most notoriously corrupt. Go figure.
quote:
I don't at all like what I see in this case. Looking for exclusivity is a terrible sign
Not sure on that. Before there was an internet, how could you ensure safety, pacing, non-digression, etc, unless you insist that someone follow The Program? Even Yogani, operating in a different age and in a different media, suggests not adding outside energy practices.
I don't like this group much at all, but the exclusivity isn't a problem for me, fwiw. Unless it's a "shun your family" type exclusivity. Though the swami vows in india, come to think of it, amount to that... |
|
|
|
david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 11:27:10 AM
|
Jim, insisting that someone follow 'The Program' is fine. Insisting that you don't read any other spiritual teachers is I would say excessive. Which is to say that if 'The Program' requires you not to even read any other sources, 'The Program' is messed up.
OK, I'll admit there are some gray areas here, so perhaps I go too far. But I still say I consider it a negative indicator, even if it isn't entirely conclusive. Generally I consider it more impressive if the teacher doesn't have to get heavy-handed in that particular way.
|
|
|
|
Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 1:00:32 PM
|
Hi David,
I agree with you about the heavy-handedness.
My best teachers would always encourage me to explore for myself, to develop critical thinking and logical reasoning, to ask them questions, and to disagree with them if I found it necessary to do so. And, the worst one's never encouraged these things, and would become abusive if I didn't agree with their way of thinking.
If I went to a teacher that told me I could only study their material, and no others, they would cease being my teacher at that very instance.
Kind regards |
|
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 2:02:18 PM
|
What do you think about attending lectures given by a sect or branch of Buddhism (or any spiritual tradition) that may have some questionable motives or beliefs? Do you think this is playing too close to the fire? Just curious about your thoughts on this. Is it possible to benefit from the teachings of a group, and to remain untouched by the rift in its underbelly? Or is it the case that in exposing oneself to the teachings of a questionable group, one is involved in toto whether she likes it or not. Fwiw, none of the deities or issues outlined in the article have come up once. Never heard of Dorje Shugen until now, for example...no massive idol of him on the altar.
I've made the decision to forfeit the year-long class, but will continue going to the lecture series once a week, and to a new NKT meditation group that's starting up in my borough. I don't like the idea of ditching this, as I've benefited so much from it. Is it possible, I wonder, to EVER find a teacher/community/spiritual tradition that's without flaws? Isn't that like looking for a perfect partner? (Admittedly, murder and treason are hard to sweep under the rug...)
David, you may be speaking generally, but in the lectures I haven't heard any mention of exclusivity regarding the reading of other books. However, their bookstore carries only Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's books and tapes, which I think is a negative indicator, as you say.
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
New Kadampa Tradition and Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
