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Ananda
3115 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 08 2008 : 04:15:27 AM
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hello everyone, i just wanted to ask if anyone here had an explenation to this case.
a friend of mine she's a woman that goes into deep meditations usually and suddenly she thinks about a certain person in her deep meditations and then she incarnates in them and lives in there body and experience and knows everything they're having.
i told her some stuff about higher conciousness and experiencing what others feel and that there are no bondaries and so.
and that was my opinion,but i would like it if you guys could share your opinions about her case with me.
best wishes to everyone and pardon my english
Ananda |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2008 : 08:36:48 AM
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Yes, it's supposed to be possible for a skilled yogi to do this.
In Western culture we call this ability "telepathy." Please review the following entry about it on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telepathy
In Theravada Buddhism this ablity is refered to as "ceto-pariya-ñána." Ceto-pariya-ñána, which is a Pali word, roughly translates to "Penetrating Knowledge of the Mind" in English.
Below is an excerpt from the Samannaphala (Fruits of the Contemplative Life) Sutta - a Buddhist discourse - that discusses it:
"With his mind thus absorbed (samadhi), purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the awareness of other beings. He knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion. He discerns a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion. He discerns a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion. He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind. He discerns an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an underdeveloped mind as an underdeveloped mind. He discerns an excelled mind [one that is not at the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind. He discerns a absorbed (samadhi) mind as a absorbed (samadhi) mind, and an unabsorbed (samadhi) mind as an unabsorbed (samadhi) mind. He discerns a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind. Just as if a young woman -- or man -- fond of ornaments, examining the reflection of her own face in a bright mirror or a bowl of clear water would know 'blemished' if it were blemished, or 'unblemished' if it were not. In the same way -- with his mind thus absorbed (samadhi), purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability -- the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge of the awareness of other beings. He knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion... a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind.
"This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime."
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/...nnaphala.htm
Peace,
Nirodha |
Edited by - Nirodha on Mar 09 2008 09:04:01 AM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2008 : 1:36:03 PM
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hi nirodha and thk u for ur post, but it's smthg a lot more different than telepathy which is reached by catching other's vibrations but in this case here my friend is going in another's body where she knows everything about him and all his vibrations the positive and the negative ones as well.
anyways i didn't even read all ur links, and thk u again and god bless u.
tc. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2008 : 12:38:18 PM
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Hey, beirut, it's impossible to incarnate a person and this is relegated to the mind mistakingly percieving that it has this ability, since a true siddhi cannot be produced by the mind.
Also, self absorption, as mentioned within the quote by Nirodha, is is deceptive in the sense that there isn't a literal absorption that occurs, but is a letting go of outcome that produces this effect. Allowing yourself to see yourself within another person. Or to speak plainly, opening up to another person's perception or point of view.
Siddhis are part of we are, and are also unreal, since experiencing self absorption is spoken from the perspective of duality and once it is cognized and reevaluated through the subtle art of discrimination, the falseness of the experience becomes obvious.
In other words, what's the point of absorbing within the self if one is the self? It doesn't conform to reason, but is an effective tool for uprooting superstition through self inquiry or contemplation by balancing both hemispheres of the brain.
So the person is able to perceive the truth of a situation by examining these siddhis within context. For example, usually siddhis occur in subsequent progression, from gross to subtle. Or from physical, emotional, mental progression and actually follows the same process as noted by Maslow's Needs Hierarchy, since siddhis are a form of relinguishing attachment regardless of where we are along the path:
http://www.swamij.com/maslow-yoga.htm
So a person operating from a physical expression of expectation may experience a dream that comes true within physical reality. Which forces the person to reevaluate their current perception of the past, present, future and this connectedness who is unable to face current reality. In other words, I need this spiritual/physical connection to prod me onward to experience the false nature of the self in order to know the true self.
While another person may experience emotional input/output from the outside world to validate this same reality of the past, present, future. In other words. I need to experience this emotional imput/output to prod me to continue onward by way of experiencing the false self in order to know the true self.
And still this progression may be experienced by mental imput/out from the inside outside world as a way of understanding this same past, present, future and how they correlate. In other words, I need this mental stimulus from the inside/outside world to continue onward by way of experiencing the false self in order to know the true self.
These same processes move in circular fashion although various wisdom's are gleaned dependent on the fine art of discrimination.
In other words, a true Siddhi is experienced, because the person is mentally adapt to deconstruct and reconstruct the phenomenon to glean the most wisdom from the thing itself and is not something someone can mentally produce, but comes with detachment.
Anyway, this is my current perception of these types of mental phenomenon, which are not siddhis, because a person would never concieve that such a thing is possible by knowing the nature of the self and so this is something that is the person is creating themselves and holds no reality in my opinion.
Take care:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Mar 10 2008 1:22:19 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2008 : 6:00:58 PM
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vil my brother, bravo bravo bravo truelly that's a remarkable argument and honestly u convinced me.
but let's hope my friend will accept this explanation so well, she doesn't even believe in her true self.
she's a muslim living in saudi arabia, and i always go into huge arguments with her concerning reincarnation and the true self but still she's stuborn.
anyways i'll tell her what you said to me and let's hope it will take an effect on her.
i'm very gratful for your satisfying reply.
god bless you my friend.
best wishes
Ananda |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2008 : 11:29:50 PM
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Take care beirut and may we all realize this same truth within each other that yogani discusses here:
quote:
yogani: But only you can choose. Only you know what burns brightest in your heart. That is your highest ideal, that which burns like a beacon in your heart. Maybe it is Jesus. Maybe Krishna. Maybe Allah. Maybe your guru. Maybe the light inside you. It can be anything. Only you can know. Whoever or whatever it is, it is yours. It is personal. You will know it when you see it because it will burn like a beacon in you. It will be all goodness, all progress, projecting no harm toward anyone. It is that which leads you home to pure bliss consciousness and divine ecstasy.
http://www.aypsite.org/67.html
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Mar 10 2008 11:46:10 PM |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2008 : 10:46:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL
Also, self absorption, as mentioned within the quote by Nirodha, is deceptive in the sense that there isn't a literal absorption that occurs, but is a letting go of outcome that produces this effect.
Hi VIL,
Sorry, but I think you misunderstood the quote, as there is no reference to 'self absorption' in it. In that particular Sutta, when the Buddha spoke of being absorbed, he was referring to Meditative Absorption (i.e. Samadhi). He's not speaking about being self-obsessed, as you seem to be implying.
While I don't believe that Beirut's friend is indeed incarnating (i.e being born) into another person's body, I do believe it's possible that she's entering the mind of another. And, since she's entered their mind, she'd also experience their body, as the mind and body are very tightly linked.
Perhaps it would be best to think of this Siddhi as an advanced form of mental telepathy - akin to a Vulcan Mind Meld. Therefore, instead of picking up another's thoughts as a receiver, one actually enters their mind and experiences everything they do.
Also, Beirut, I don't believe it's skillful for you to argue about, or attempt to disprove, you friend's supposed ability. While she may indeed by mistaken about it - wouldn't be the first time someone on a spiritual path had overestimated themselves - it's entirely up to her to 'self-correct,' if she needs to do so. I can tell you from experience that nothing is more alienating, when being involved in a spiritual friendship, than to have someone else constantly offer unsolicited opinions and advice.
Kind regards
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Edited by - Nirodha on Mar 11 2008 11:01:04 AM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2008 : 11:58:02 AM
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hello nirhoda nice of u to drop in, concerning vil's advice i'm with it but i'm gonna let him answer for himself since the 1st part of your post is pointing at him.
scd concerning my part, y is it so bad to give an advise to a friend. really i don't c no harm done there since she proposed the question and what's happening isn't so nice when it occurs and it occurs without her handling it and doesn't know anything about it so she asks other people and i happen to be one of these people she asked.
and ofcourse by incarnation i didn't mean being born in another's body again lolz.
and i'm not disproving or doing anything of that kind, i believe that i gave her the best answer i could find when she asked about what happened with her.
and what happened with her might be a progressive form of telepathy true.
and personaly i always give her the best advice there is and always encourage her to keep on the good practice and i don't c where i'm discouraging or disproving or arguing her in any form by giving her this piece of advice.
best wishes
Ananda |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2008 : 2:49:31 PM
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I have been thinking about this topic, and after having read nirodhas quote, I sense there's a mix of the levels of this phenomena. Now, I don't know this from own experience, but I do believe that what the Samannaphala talks about is not telepathy - it's living as Oneness.
After having attended a retreat with Bernie Prior and seen and experienced first hand an aware being who is able to fully "discern" the state of another mind, I would be very careful with what I told that woman who is experiencing this during deep meditation - a state when the mind may be very pure.
The way Bernie knew the hearts and minds and could read our thoughts instantly was very confusing and scary at first. Then I got used to it. He also explained how it was in his "field of awareness" as he called it. He talked about how living as One meant that we are all capable of experiencing EVERYTHING in existence, everything another being is experiencing IS what I AM experiencing, right Now.
It was startling to read Yogani's "Secrets of Wilder" and find a scene where exactly this is described:
quote:
John sat meditating with the large group in the grand ballroom. A hundred minds were inside him. Some were quietly resting in the deep silent bliss of I AM. Others were being drawn there through their own letting go into I AM, and the settling influence of the group. Some were struggling, trying to force the quieting of I AM, having many other thoughts. Some were having angry thougths:
"What the hell am I doing here?"
"This place sucks, what a disgusting mess."
"Gotta go, gotta pick up the new car..."
"These people are idiots. I'm outta here when this is over..."
All of it was normal. John knew they'd come out of meditation feeling better, having unloaded some inner baggage. He was there to help smooth the process. THey were all there for that, to help each other. While it was going on, he was full of everyone else's baggage. That was the price he paid for finding himself everywhere. The world was filled with infinite joys and infinite sorrows, and everything in-between.
It was a huge confirmation to read that part - that's exactly how Bernie described it. I found many, many times that he knew exactly what I thought and felt. He answered aloud something I had just thought. He could retell telephonecalls etc etc etc...
We are birds flying, wales diving, kids screaming and lovers making love. We are infinite beings with infinite potential, actually One. How can you be so sure that woman is not having moments of Oneness...? |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2008 : 11:06:19 PM
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Hi Ananda,
I owe you an apology. How you and your friend relate it each other is your business, and I shouldn't have commented about it. Sorry.
Kind regards
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Edited by - Nirodha on Mar 12 2008 12:02:19 AM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2008 : 01:43:44 AM
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Bonjour Ananda,
I could be wrong but feel your friend's experience might be connected to Phowa (transfer of consciousness) which is one of the 6 yogas of Naropa from tibetan lineages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Yogas_of_Naropa
Albert |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2008 : 06:55:16 AM
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emc my dear friend welcome and thx for sharing your knowledge with us which made a lot of things clearer and the similarities are here that's true.
nirodha don't worry my dear friend it's all good no harm's done and there's no need for apologising, misunderstandings do happen and don't worry i don't force my convinctions on anyone it's just that we go into small friendly debates from time to time me and maha my friend the one i'm talking about and i know you meant well and it's all good and thk u for your concern. (god bless you)
bonjour toujours cher albert, j'espere que tous va bien and concerning what you've given us after taking a loot at it i'm bedazled.
really god bless you my friend for sharing this with us and it seems it might be the case cz it's described the same way it happened.
and i'm really gratful for ur participation cz you just opened a new door for me and 4 my friend whom i shall translate for her the findings later.
kind regars and best wishes to everyone
Ananda |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2008 : 09:24:13 AM
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Hi Ananda,
What she experiences is a siddhi. Maybe a natural one that she was born with or something she has cultivated with her practice. In any case.. many scriptures and enlightened gurus will tell you to not get caught up in a siddhi.. because it slows down your progress. A siddhi is more of scenery along the path and a very easy distraction to get lost in. Like a road trip from New York to California.. and you take a break in Las Vegas and fall in love with the city and get lost in the glamor and beauty of the city, you may never reach your destination. Of course, its her journey.. all you can do is give her the tools and the warnings.. but she will remain in Las Vegas for as long as she needs to before she realizes it is just slowing her down. You can be a good friend by showing her the pitfalls in being attached to the siddhi.. but that is all you can do. Like my father always said.. "you can take a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink".
Thank you for sharing.
Welcome to the forum and wish you (and your friend) all the best. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2008 : 09:49:33 AM
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Hi all,
I agree with Shanti... this is not telepathy, or oneness, but a siddhi, the ability to leave one body/ mind system (which we usually call our own) and enter another's. It is listed as one of the 10 major siddhis in the scriptures, along with levitation and a few others that I can't remember right now. Oneness is when the ground of one's own being is seen as the ground of all being(s). Telepathy is when you become sensative to the thoughts and feelings of another, whilst remaining in your own body.
Christi |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2008 : 10:08:37 AM
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| Isn't a siddhi just a trailer then of what is to come when living as One? I wouldn't say it's "not for real" in the sense it is only a fantasy creation of the mind. It's not to get caught up in - that would slow down the progress, but it's not to dismiss as fake either. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2008 : 10:22:08 AM
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EMC, siddhis are not fake.. they are very real and are by-products of our practice. No one is dismissing it as fake. Realizing "it is all in our mind".. and getting over that mind barrier is what gives us access to the siddhis.
Just important to remember it is not the destination, and not to get caught up in it so as to pour all our energy into it. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2008 : 11:18:32 AM
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Perfect, Shanti, that's it:
VIL |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 03:23:50 AM
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simple and clear shanti, thank you.
god bless
Ananda |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 04:04:14 AM
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Oki, perhaps I misinterpreted VIL here:
"Anyway, this is my current perception of these types of mental phenomenon, which are not siddhis, because a person would never concieve that such a thing is possible by knowing the nature of the self and so this is something that is the person is creating themselves and holds no reality in my opinion."
It sounded as if you dismissed the experience as "holds no reality" but you were perhaps aiming at something else? |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 08:01:03 AM
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Hey, emc, they are a part of who we are and also hold no reality of the truth behind what is happening and the reason why anyone who has ever experienced a siddhi will tell you of it's non importance and also the reason why there isn't much written concerning the phenomenon.
It's difficult to explain, in once sense, (I tried my best) and yet we can understand it too and I'm not being coy with my response.
To use an analogy of going back into the distance past:
Suppose there are cavemen sitting around a fire that they have just discovered. And so a wind blows out the fire and you walk into the cave and see them struggling banging two rocks together. So, your legs are killing you, since you've climbed this mountain in six inch stiletto heels and you're like, 'This sucks! as you're rubbing your ankle. (LOL)
So you see them attempting to relight this fire and so you roll your eyes and decide to pull out a lighter and relight the fire (maybe decide to have a cigarette too, with hand on hip(LOL). From their point of view it's amazing, it's magic. And you're like, 'What are you all looking at?! Never see a pretty girl before?!' (LOL) As you are still rubbing your ankle. But they immediately grab you and pick you up and are ready to toss you over a cliff. And you're like, 'Hold on a minute! Careful, this is Dolce Gabbana! I paid alot for this dress! Hold on! I can explain!' (LOLOLOL)
So one of them speaks up and you're giving your chance, as you're mumbling under your breath blaming Paris Hilton for pushing you into that time machine at a science expo that you didn't want to go to in the first place. (LOLOLOL).
Anyway, so you go about explaining the phenomenon of the cigarette lighter and maybe after some time one will understand after you dissect what the lighter is and how it's operating, from the same principle, as the two rocks that they are using. And still another won't understand the phenomenon, but at least understands that they discovered fire and it's possible. And still another will never believe that it was something that was created and still holds onto superstition that the fire was magic.
So they allow you to live there, while you're holding up your cell phone attemptin to get a signal, dialing over and over again. And in your frustration you exclaim, 'Can somebody please get me a drink!!' (LOL)
Anyway, that's my humorous take on siddhis, which are a tool, like the cigarette lighter and aren't a big deal, and are operating from law whether known or unknown and it's people who make them magical:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Mar 13 2008 08:19:19 AM |
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Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 11:15:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
EMC, siddhis are not fake.. they are very real and are by-products of our practice. No one is dismissing it as fake. Realizing "it is all in our mind".. and getting over that mind barrier is what gives us access to the siddhis.
Just important to remember it is not the destination, and not to get caught up in it so as to pour all our energy into it.
quote:
Originally posted by VIL
Perfect, Shanti, that's it:
VIL
quote:
Originally posted by beirut
simple and clear shanti, thank you.
god bless
Ananda
Ditto VIL and Ananda.
Siddhis are analogous to one's capabilities during a lucid dream.
When one is dreaming during REM sleep and becomes aware, within the dream, that one is dreaming, one can consciously manipulate the dream.
Siddhis are the same phenomena, occurring during the waking state instead of the dream state.
Siddhis are gifts of grace because they shine light into the shadowy places where desires are hiding. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2008 : 08:29:15 AM
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thk you for the explanation dear suryakant.
god bless and kind regards.
Ananda |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2008 : 11:35:04 AM
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Hey, Ananda, I've recently changed my perspective on this topic. This person that you're talking about has a true siddhi, I'm sure of it.
Anyway, I know of a person who provided a really great emotional opening for me, recently, (identical to your friend) since I was force feeding meditation and I was upset that meditation was equated with smoking pot.
So my brother passed away last year and needed to smoke pot every day just to eat, since he had aids, and was a wonderful person and helped many people.
Out of the blue, I recently visited the area where his ashes were laid and burst out crying, since I had a tremendous amount of guilt that I could not save him.
A week before he passed away we used to talk about life, death, the soul, et al. And I assured him that we are all eternal, since he used to say, "am I going to get lost when I die". That was a real heart breaker for me.
Alot of other insights came from this experience.
I just wanted to share this.
Namaste:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Jun 06 2008 1:14:27 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2008 : 1:45:12 PM
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:) thks for sharing this my brother i can feel what your saying and all my condonlences to you and your family and may your brother rests in peace.
and don't worry he is resting in bliss with a kind overlook from god's angels be sure of that life isn't so cruel as we think it to be.
really this post made me feel a sort of warm kindness coming out from your heart which overwhelmed my essence.
again thk you my brother and sorry if i gave myself too much liberty by calling you brother.
:) god bless.
an admirer of your kind soul.
Ananda |
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Neesha
215 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2008 : 6:31:39 PM
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Hi Ananda,
Yes it is possible to go into another's consciousness..........and experience what they are doing............
But I usually do this to check for medical conditions,state of mind...........etc
especially in cases where it is children..........
Most times I wait for people to come forward.........
I don't know how I acquired it probably through devotion........
but it is 1000% possible........
It is not nice in some cases where persons were murdered etc.....
But a few collegues of mine can do it also....
We use it to help/find people etc
With permission of course.
I hope this helps a bit.
Namaste |
Edited by - Neesha on Jun 06 2008 7:39:56 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2008 : 01:44:53 AM
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hey Neesha, oh yes it does and i've search about the matter when i 1st posted this subject and the guys here led me to a lot of answers.
and escuse me if i'm going into your personal stuff by asking this, but what's the spiritual system that you and your friends are following (buddism, tantra, raja, jnana etc)
Namaste |
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incarnation in another's body while meditating?!!
