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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 27 2008 : 6:14:46 PM
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There seems to be both a general and a specific result of doing samyama.
The general result could be described as the generation of bliss or ecstacy, the purification of the vessels, the development of stillness or similar effects as the result of the technique of dropping the sutra in the stillness or picking it up in the stillness as described elsewhere.
With this understanding alone, the content of the sutra would be of no importance. The word could be “love” or “coca cola” or “hate”, it would not matter for the result of the technique.
If, however, the meaning of the sutra does matter and the effect of a specific sutra is tied to the meaning of the word used, that is if there is a cause-effect relation between a specific effect and a corresponding sutra, then of course the meaning of the sutra is important. If you do samyama on “strength” then the result has something to do with this, and you do not get any other specific result such as the ability to levitate.
So the results are both general and, as Patanjali described, specific.
Now, if the samyama on “love” gives a specific result, how can it be as stated elsewhere in this forum that samyama on “hate” gives the same result? It does not, is the obvious and logical answer. Samyama on “red bull” will not give you wings, samyama on “evil” will not bring “good”.
If someone feels the good effects of doing samyama on negative words, then that experience is of the general kind, just doing the technique feels good. The specific result of for example increased hate would be manifesting in the world at some other time or place, and the severeness of the following negative karma would depend on the skill of the meditator to perform samyama, to manipulate spirit to bring forth fruit in mater.
I use the term karma to mean the fruit of the action and the responsibility we all have for our use of energy.
If someone argues that there is no difference in effect doing samyana on positive or negative words, then the logical conclusion would be to always use positive words. Why? Samyama on positive words have worked well for thousands of years by thousands of yogis. If changing to negative words will not yield better result, why change? And why change and take an additional risk of doing harm to life and to oneself?
I believe we must be careful that in our eagerness to move forward we do not accidentally cause great harm to ourselves or other friends on the path. I believe doing samyama on negative words are a mistake and a danger to ourselves and others.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2008 : 9:15:12 PM
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I wouldn't pick negative words myself, but I think the intent of the person doing the samyama is more likely to control the kind of energy produced or tuned into.
i don't know which writing you are referring to, but I'm sure it didn't say negative words are just as good as positive. It probably said they could be just as effective in some circumstances.
In other words, we should not give words power over us. I think a spiritually ascended person should be able to speak a thousand words about satan for instance, without losing their faith in God. That is because their intention would not be evil.
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2008 : 11:07:58 PM
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This is one of those cosmic joke things, since it's not about any word or word attachment or even karma. It has to do with the very practice itself and the reason why yogani favors this over experience. Anyone care to take a gander?
VIL |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2008 : 12:11:49 AM
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Hi LAMNN:
Doing samyama on "negative words" is discussed in the Samyama book within the context of dissolving the obstacles to enlightenment that such words may imply. This "expanded application" of samyama was covered for those who may be inclined toward illuminating the world's most serious problems with divine light from within. If we have abiding inner silence, there can be a substantial influence.
This aspect of samyama practice, the dissolving of obstructions to enlightenment on any scale, is covered in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. Reference is provided in the Appendix of the Samyama book on the "Samyama Sutras of Patanjali," from Chapter 3 of the Yoga Sutras. More importantly, it works! 
If someone chooses to increase the negative power of a negative word by doing samyama with it, or even use a positive word for a selfish reason (as we all have), it will not work as intended because of the inherent nature of inner silence (pure bliss consciousness), which is the fuel of samyama.
So, yes, there is a general positive influence that is produced in all samyama practice. What comes through a specific sutra is a flavor of the divine quality flowing from within. No matter where the sutra is pointing, the energy flow coming from within will be radiantly purifying in that direction.
However, this is not so general that it will not matter what sutras we use. In fact, the sutras we use in daily practice matter a lot, and so is maintaining a consistent sutra list for core practice over the long term, because we are engaged in deep and balanced purification throughout our nervous system. This takes consistent practice going deeper and deeper over time.
On the other hand, after our sitting practices, there may be times (maybe often for some of us) when we wish or pray for an end to the maladies of the world, or perhaps maladies closer to home. Our wishes and prayers will be much more effective if we employ the time-tested principles of samyama. We need not be afraid to face the negative energies that may be swirling in the air, or afraid to release their name in our stillness. When our attention is flowing from within stillness, negative energies will hold no sway. They are simply obstructions to be dissolved. When we turn on the light, the darkness will disappear.
Practice is practice and we sit for that in a structured way like clockwork. Then our ability to express ourselves during daily activities will be rooted in the inner silence we have cultivated in practice, and in the ability we have developed to act from within that silence.
Putting it in another terminology, if we surrender the word "disease" to God, will God give us more disease? If we surrender the word "war" to God, will God give us more war? Of course not.
This is why it is said to "Let go and let God." It is not a passive surrender to things as they are. It is an active surrender which has the healing power of all creation behind it. This is what samyama is. Or, rather, this is what samyama becomes for those who systematically cultivate it to its natural flowering, which is unending outpouring divine love. This is the natural obliteration of all negativity, which does not exist in the depths of our being. The ability resides within all of us.
The guru is in you.
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2008 : 12:48:07 AM
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Whoa.
Well said Yogani, and thank you for this post.
Kathy |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2008 : 07:41:24 AM
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[Spoiler alert: warning that reading the first paragraph will spoil the movie, The Sixth Sense. So if you haven't seen it, skip this first paragraph]
yogani is one of those people when you say, 'Hey, I'm going to go see this movie The Sixth Sense, I heard it's really awesome!' and he replies, 'You have to go see it, it's great! He doesn't realize that he's dead':  LOLOLOL
Anyway, I was going to say the same as yogani's wisdom, but explain it from the end of the movie and not the beginning: LOL, since my post of calling it a cosmic joke may come across as insensitive or that I considered samayama some arbitrary thing.
So it's a cosmic joke in the sense that this very practice is what brings the individual liberation.
It's what's behind the equation, or practice, since we know that samayama is beyond karma or word attachment, because the individual that practices is selflessly devoting their energy to another and Divine Silence knows this. As yogani says, 'let go and let God' or 'He who knows himself knows God'. And if there is no longer something behind the equation then what is it?
I would just like to add that individuals that practice samayama are the most beautiful, spotless, pure, selfless, individuals in the world, regardless if they know this or not.
Take care:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Feb 28 2008 10:20:04 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2008 : 09:56:29 AM
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VIL, whoa, ironically, you've just posted a real movie 'Spoiler', without any warning!  You'll spoil the movie for anyone who hasn't seen it yet and reads what you wrote. Maybe you should edit your post put a warning that reading the first paragraph will spoil the movie, Sixth Sense.
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2008 : 10:07:41 AM
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LOLOL, david, everyone knows the end by now through word of mouth, right? LOLOLOL.
I decided to do that, david, since you're right, let's let people experience it for themselves:
VIL |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2008 : 10:28:11 AM
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Well done VIL. Just saving you from bad karma -- you don't want your movies spoiled in the afterlife, LOL!
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Feb 29 2008 : 09:24:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Putting it in another terminology, if we surrender the word "disease" to God, will God give us more disease? If we surrender the word "war" to God, will God give us more war? Of course not.
Interesting question. Wrong answer. Let me explain: Short version: People have wanted war. War exists. Therefore God allows it.
Longer version: The way this question is asked is based on the idea of an outside independent God, sort of a benign dictator running things. This primitive philosophy could state that if my motives are good, God will not let anything bad happen. When bad things happen, it is Gods fault. God is unjust.
On some construction sites you might find a sign pointing to a framed picture that says something like “this is a picture of the person responsible for your safety on this construction site”. When you then look at the picture you realise that it is a mirror. The message is that you are the one!
In the ultimate analysis, it’s the same thing with yoga. Whatever terms you are using, jivan realizing unity with atman, with brahman, or attaining Christhood or Buddhahood, the Big Boss running things is the one in the mirror. You have not realised this yet.
If your life philosophy includes God, then you must realise that you are His representative until that time in your evolution you attain unity with that God. The challenge until then is to make good use of your free will and your power to create. The law of karma ensures that every action gives the proper re-action (result). You just have to align youself and your actions with God to get the divine results.
People on this earth want war, so they get war. The more power they put behind their wish, the more likely it is that suffering will increase. As a yogi, your job is to create peace. And you have a great tool in samyama. If you consciously or unconsciously choose to misuse the powers given to you to wish death or destruction on your enemies, you surely will have a heap of karma dumped on your footstep to prevent you from killing yourself, and killing god in you. Sorry, I am just stating the obvious. Read about Milarepa.
The original question in this thread concerned the use of negative words in samyama, and the possibility of this creating more negativity. One point of view is that “world peace” and “world war” will create the same effect. The other view is that if this is the case, then use “world peace”, because if there exist even a small chance that you are wrong, the price is too much to pay.
Another point to consider is the “failed samyama effect”, that is the effect of using negative words in your practise while not succeeding in the practise of samyama. Energy follows your attention and direction. It is naïve to believe that no harm can come from your thoughts.
If you believe you can create without karmic responsibility, you still may create suffering even by mistake.
Yogani, it is a pleasure to discuss the fine but powerful points of the Law with you. I appreciate that you are unorthodox and willing to consider different input to your system. Our dialogue is not about “being right” or “winning the battle” as is the case so often when things are discussed. Engineers should base their professional opinion on facts, so should yogis. Other tools to use could be cost-benefit analysis or failure analysis.
(If analysing fictional movies is more intellectual rewarding, then please do so elsewhere).
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
If someone chooses to increase the negative power of a negative word by doing samyama with it, or even use a positive word for a selfish reason (as we all have), it will not work as intended because of the inherent nature of inner silence (pure bliss consciousness), which is the fuel of samyama.
I would argue that all energy, positive or negative, in the ultimate analysis is pure bliss consciousness. By samyama you may tap this power close to the source. Since negative things do exist, the creation of negativity is a possibility, and not ruled out. “God” will allow you to make mistakes by turning pure bliss consciousness into forms of lesser good.
PS
I use "you" in a general sense above, not specifically meaning "Yogani" or the reader.
And on another note, thanks for all the good work you (in general and specifically Yogani) have done with AYP!
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 29 2008 : 11:50:15 AM
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quote:
LAMNN: If you believe you can create without karmic responsibility, you still may create suffering even by mistake.
Hey, my friend, suppose that you leave your home and you drop a twenty dollar bill, but are unaware of it at the time. So you get into your car and stop at a diner for some coffee and breakfast. But before you enter the establishment, you reach within your wallet only to find that it's empty. So you check your watch: It's 8:00.
So, while in the parking lot, you decide to turn around and retrace your steps. You stop at a friends home where you were earlier, then at a gas station, which inevitably leads back home.
You frantically search your home, but are unable to find the money. So you give up on trying to figure out what just happened and decide that it's best to get back into your car, skip breakfast, and go to work, since you are late already.
After apologizing to your boss, explaining your bad circumstance of losing the money, you go about your business just like we do within everyday life, but you overhear a radio broadcast that the diner that you were about to have breakfast was destroyed by a terrorist's bomb at exactly 8:10. It takes a minute for what just happened to sink in. And then there is a sudden realization, that follows, since this is the same time that you would have been enjoying your eggs and coffee.
So, in this sense losing the twenty dollar bill was something that was, at first, percieved as negative, but later became something positive. Although it was neither, but it became both things to the observer. Consider me the missing twenty dollar bill, the bomb, the radio broadcast and so on:LOLOLOL (All in good fun, of course): LOLOLOLOLOLOL
(No harm meant by my post nor intellect attachment involved):
  - All three at once...
VIL |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Feb 29 2008 : 12:15:34 PM
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Hi LAMNN:
The word "God" is not used in a relative or philosophical way above, or as a belief. It is used as synonymous with abiding inner silence, as in "Be still and know I am God."
We are talking about the procedure of samyama here, which (with daily practice) leads to natural samyama in all thinking and doing -- stillness in action. In this there can be no negativity, even in the midst of so-called negative events, including some of our own thought streams. It is something everyone will arrive at in time. Before then, our world is seen as relative, as you point out. To bloom spiritually, we must get beyond identification with relative distinctions, so we cultivate the mind to naturally transcend its objects (including thoughts and feelings) with these specialized techniques. Then the objects themselves will be gradually illuminated as they come up, including the so-called negative ones. This is how we come to not worry so much about avoiding "negative thoughts," in samyama or any other aspect of life. Likewise, as we progress in practices, acting on negative thoughts becomes progressively more difficult.
Any thought can be colored negatively in the mind. It is inherent in relative existence. Do the dangers found in relativity pose a danger to our samyama practice, or its results? No, because samyama operates beyond the mind. There are other reasons for choosing our sutras for samyama, having to do with enhancing and balancing the results, but not related to fearing a content-related negative outcome. The latter is not part of the equation for anyone who is familiar the AYP approach to samyama.
If you are making a case for not doing samyama on certain words because it can lead to negative effects, I must take issue. If such a practice leads to negative effects, it is not samyama. It is something else. It is not possible to amplify negative intentions in inner silence. This is why the practice of samyama is called "morally self-regulating" in the lessons.
Of course, the prerequisite for samyama and its radiating positive effects is abiding inner silence (samadhi). Before that prerequisite condition is available, it is merely concepts we are dealing with, where nothing can be concluded with certainty in spiritual matters, and energy is limited as well. This is why we do deep meditation.
Samyama is amoral, as is deep meditation. Yet, both produce the highest morality (yama/niyama) in the world, because these practices are rooted in That in us which is the source of all morality and all life.
It is not a debate that can be settled in external concepts. It can only be settled by direct experience, and that is where we should go to do it. Rather than try to reason it out, let's find out directly, and draw our conclusions from the thing itself, rather than from external concepts. We don't want to miss anything essential because of a particular mindset. 
If you think there is something wrong with doing samyama on obstacles to enlightenment as an enhanced application (not core practice), show some evidence that this is so. If you make your case well, we may end up running away from all that is wrong in the world, beginning with our own thoughts. I for one am not for that, and presume that others feel the same way, especially after some time in practices (inner silence/witness coming up). That is why the enhanced applications are offered in the Samyama book.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
PS: Pardon me for hammering away on this, but it is really at the heart of the spiritual path, and is especially relevant when considering samyama, self-inquiry and karma yoga. If there is no chance to cultivate a natural positive outflow from stillness into all aspects of our life, then yoga is not going to be worth the time we are devoting to it. Obviously, many here consider it to be worth the effort, so there must be something good happening.
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Feb 29 2008 : 4:35:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL
After apologizing to your boss, explaining your bad circumstance of losing the money, you go about your business just like we do within everyday life, but you overhear a radio broadcast that the diner that you were about to have breakfast was destroyed by a terrorist's bomb at exactly 8:10. It takes a minute for what just happened to sink in. And then there is a sudden realization, that follows, since this is the same time that you would have been enjoying your eggs and coffee.
That’s a great idea for a movie script! I can imagine Julia Roberts as the suicide bomber, hiding the explosives in her lips! The question is, who has possession of the money, and what is the moral dilemma? |
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Feb 29 2008 : 4:43:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
If you are making a case for not doing samyama on certain words because it can lead to negative effects, I must take issue. If such a practice leads to negative effects, it is not samyama. It is something else.
In some circles it is called black magic, I am told.
quote:
If you think there is something wrong with doing samyama on obstacles to enlightenment as an enhanced application (not core practice), show some evidence that this is so. If you make your case well, we may end up running away from all that is wrong in the world, beginning with our own thoughts.
You might very well be right, Yogani, but the burden of proof is on your shoulders. Yes? You can’t bring a new drug to the table claiming it is un-harmful a priori, without solid proof of the effects. Unless you are selling snake oil.
Patanjali says that doing samyama on “love” will produce love. You claim, correct me if I am wrong, that doing samyama on “hate” will also produce love, because it is positive. If, however, hate is the result, then that is the fault of the practitioner, not the practice. (In my opinion that is the same as to say if you don’t get cured by the snake oil, then by definition something is wrong with you).
Since you approach the subject of yoga with the mind of an engineer, and try to describe AYP in scientific terms, then you also must accept your thesis to receive objections, and be willing to subject your theories to revision. This is a completely different approach then the blind faith to the infallible guru and takes guts, which you have. My hat off for you!
I am not happy with the practise of samyama on negative words, I think it might be harmful. Until you have other proof, then caution is recommended. Samyama using only neutral or positive words will give the wanted effect without the potential risk.
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Feb 29 2008 : 5:47:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lookatmynavelnow
I am not happy with the practise of samyama on negative words, I think it might be harmful. Until you have other proof, then caution is recommended. Samyama using only neutral or positive words will give the wanted effect without the potential risk.
Hi LAMNN:
This has not been suggested as a core practice, and no one is obligated (that goes for anything in AYP). And, yes, kick the tires all you like. But don't expect me to roll over too easily on principles that I can see are operating within us.
The suggestion is that if we happen to be thinking about the maladies of the world, the best place to do it is released in stillness. The emotional charge can be used to advantage, and this crosses over into bhakti -- a subject we can pick up later. All thinking for practitioners of yoga is heading in this direction over the long term. We are deliberately cultivating the ability. So doing samyama on negative thoughts is an inevitability, even if we don't plan on it. Living in stillness is that. Of course, those "negative thoughts" are dissolving already in stillness as our ability increases, so the negativity is a paper tiger, like a shadow on the wall.
So maybe the guideline should be, if it feels negative and scary, avoid it. And it is doesn't, dissolve away! It is really a matter of where our sense of self is. It is like that for self-inquiry too. When we are the witness and operate from there, we call it "relational." The same applies in samyama.
I have pointed this "negative thought" thing out in the Samyama book and in the forums for good reason. We are heading in that direction. It is early to bring it up, but not premature, I think. The controversy was expected. And here we are. Give it some time.
On the evidence side, Check Shanti's excellent topic on dissolving positively and negatively charged thoughts in stillness with equal effectiveness, before they manifest, no less. That is an application of samyama. It is a clear demonstration of how obstructions can be dissolved in stillness, showing that negativity is not amplified in samyama.
Finally, doing samyama on "love" versus "hate" will not be the same, because the object of these will not necessarily be the same, and neither will the energy associated with the thought. Love is opening and hate is obstruction. So there is a difference. Love and other "positive" sutras are best for core practice, for broad purification and opening in our nervous system and surroundings. This does not mean we will never have a negative thought in our mind. When we do, it is far better to let it go in stillness than to act on it. I think most would agree on that.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 29 2008 : 5:58:39 PM
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LAMN,
I haven't done that much Samyama as a practice in my time (did a lot of Deep Meditation alone). Some stuff did come to me in my history though that was probably like spontaneous samyama. But anyway, after reading Sri Shanti Guru Ma's post here, and trying the technique, I think there is a good chance I'll get led back into Samyama again because the experiences I had in response to that technique gave me a new perspective on it.
I do believe from my experiences that it is correct that doing mature samyama on 'negative' words will be beneficial and not problemmatic. At the same time it's probably true is that when a person is less ready for samyama (has a lot less 'inner silence') and the samyama is not mature, then the negative words are not a good idea. This may be why samyama is generally taught only with the 'positive' words.
If I genuinely thought Yogani were wrong about this, I'd say so.
LAMN said:
Now, if the samyama on “love” gives a specific result, how can it be as stated elsewhere in this forum that samyama on “hate” gives the same result? It does not, is the obvious and logical answer. Samyama on “red bull” will not give you wings, samyama on “evil” will not bring “good”.
There is a certain logic to expecting that if samyama on 'love' produces love, then samyama on 'hate' produces hate. If samyama were like mail-order, that is the way it should work. And yet, it is not in fact illogical that samyama on 'love' produces love, while samyama on 'hate' produces love. After all, if an infant with few words were to say to 'hungry' to its mother, it might get food, while if it said 'food' it might get food also.
If you see it as mail-order, in which you get the literal response you ask for, your logic follows. If you see it as something more like that mother-child relationship, in which some problem or lack is corrected in the domain you state, then that logic doesn't follow.
The idea of samyama as mail-order would leads to the possibility of samyama being used for black magic. That's the wrong model for samyama though.
I hope that helps.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 29 2008 : 7:20:49 PM
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Samyama is a process that elevates the practitioner in relation to the outside world. This elevation is in a positive direction because of the nature of inner silence.
Black magic tries to change the world in the practitioner's favor by imposing his will on the world. This is an evil practice because it does not elevate the practitioner, and it divides reality into good and evil.
As the samyama practitioner becomes elevated, he sees that "hate" is not equal and opposite to "love". Rather, hate is lack of love. Just as "darkness" is not equal and opposite to "light", otherwise we would have flashlights that could project darkness. Instead, darkness is lack of light.
So contemplation of darkness eventually leads to light because the two exist together. And similarly with hate leading to love. If one contemplates hate in depth, the relationship to love will be seen, and the solution to hate will be seen.
What is truly evil is when hate is NOT investigated, but only practiced with no knowledge of its workings.
The world is not so much manipulated by what we practice in private. But we are changed, and if that change is positive, then the effect on the world is magnified. If the intent is evil, not much will come of it except in illusion. |
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Samyama produces bad karma
