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x.j.
304 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 18 2008 : 2:08:38 PM
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Purchase a good quality toenail nipper. Revlon brand has an excellent one for $15 that is very sharp. Don't skimp on a quality instrument.
Sterilize it by pouring boiling water over the working end prior to and after each use. Buy a brand new instrument especially for this frenulum cutting, and never use the instrument for any other purpose, especially not for cutting your toenails with it.
Shake off the excess water and store it in a zip lock sandwich bag left unzipped to allow complet drying by evaporation, between times.
Brush teeth with toothpaste, and wash out mouth with tap water prior to procedure and also wash out mouth with tap water after the procedure to rinse away any blood.
Do procedure after the evening meal, and then do not eat or drink anything (except water) until the following morning.
Use a q-tip to stretch out the cut prior to and after each procedure.
These do not need to be sterile q-tips, just the ones that can be purchased in a little box of 24 cotton tip applicators.
To do the procedure, do it in front of a full length mirror, so that you can stand very close to the mirror, with maximum lighting over one shoulder illuminating your frenulum.
Make the cut at the mid point of the web of the frenulum, half way between tongue and floor of the mouth, and always make the cut at exactly the same spot each time.
Hold the toenail nipper with flat side of where the blades come together up,so you can best see exactly where to do the cut with respect to the frenulum web.
Do the cut every three days, because the cut heals very quickly between times.
At first, make a small thread like cut that draws the tiniest bit of blood. Later, as you get the hand of things, make a deeper cut. You will get bolder in the depth of the cut once you see this is no big deal.
The cut will heal between times, but you can re-cut the wound where it has begun to heal and contract into scar tissue.
It does no good to try to stretch your tongue by pulling on it. This may possibly elongate the tongue a little, but will not help with kechari because trying to elongate the tongue does nothing to stretch
the frenulum. And the frenulum is a tether that is the real problem, not tongue length.
The frenulum consists of a cord like tether that is pure connective tissue and contains no vital structures like nerve, blood vessels nor muscle.
You will not cut anything crucial if you make the cut at the midpoint of the frenulum web midway between tongue and floor of mouth. If you make the cut near to the tongue, you could possibly get into the muscle of the tongue. If you make the cut too low, you could possible injure the salivary gland openings near the floor of the mouth at the base of the frenulum. So stay away from either extreme. That's why aim for the mid point of the web.
You may need to extend the cut on the sides,using the instrument,
if the cut you make appears deeper right at the center of the cut than at the sides.
The thickness of the intact frenulum varies, but for men it is thicker, about the thickness of the cord coming out of your telephone, and about as strong. For women, the frenulum is smaller diameter, and can be severed more easily due to that fact.
It may take 6 months or more to totally cut through the cord, but you definitely need to persist with cuts perhaps every three days since healing time is so darn quick.
The frenulum is dense connective tissue, and will tend to heal up with scar tissue at the incision site, so you will need to pry the healing incisuon area apart after meals and prior to each new cut, using a q-tip cotton applicator. If it hurts, you know you are getting somewhere at prying the healing wound back open.
Visualizing the place where you have been cutting the web, grasp that exact spot with the toenail nipper. Then very gradually, continue to increase the sgueeze on the handle to the point where it cuts through and you will feel a gritty sensation whenever you cut through some of the connective tissue cord of the frenulum. The gritty feeling will indicate you have cut through new deeper part of the connective tissue and are not just messing around superficially.
The mouth is very resistant to infection if you take a few minimum hygienic precautions. Rinse your mouth out with tap water after meals or eating. Brush your teeth after breakfast and dinner. Don't snack between meals, especially after doing the cut that day.
Gradually work up to a deeper depth of the cut, and you will get the hang of things. Pain will somewhat limit you from taking too deep a cut, but there will always be some sharp pain when you do this procedure.
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Edited by - x.j. on Feb 18 2008 2:25:03 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2008 : 2:27:48 PM
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John,
thanks for the detail. I think most of what you say is pretty solid, though I'd like to add one or two notes:
John C said:
The frenulum is dense connective tissue, and will tend to heal up with scar tissue at the incision site, so you will need to pry the healing incisuon area apart after meals and prior to each new cut, using a q-tip cotton applicator
I haven't found this to be necessary. Some scar tissue does seem to form in the cut frenum initially, but as far as I can see, it basically dissolves away on its own given a little time. I believe the process of 'milking the tongue' speeds up the dissolution of the scar tissue (and that might actually be its main purpose), but again, even that tongue-milking is unnecessary as it does melt away by itself.
You say to snip every few days. If cuts get deeper, they may take a little longer to heal, and the practicioner might wish to wait considerably longer.
Regards,
-D
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2008 : 2:30:37 PM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement -- related to kechari mudra. |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2008 : 3:09:40 PM
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Sorry D, but scar tissue does not "dissolve." It contracts like a rubber band, to tighten up the laceration.
But you are correct that if you make quite a deep cut, it may take longer than three days before the next cut. You can tell that by the amount of redness at the site of the cut. When the redness has subsided, you should be ready for the next procedure. However, I think the average person will tend to make too superficial of a cut and not make too deep of a cut. So I am trying to address the general readership in the above posted comments.
Whether you "milk" the tongue, that is totally up to you. It can't do you any harm to do so, but I wouldn't present any false expectation to the general readership of this forum, that somehow milking the tongue will assist in the overall process we are discussing. That is just my opinion on this and I am aware you have a differing opinion on this. I am just offering the best advice I can think of because reading the many posted discussions on the forums, there is a lot of confusion and hear-say anecdotal advice on this topic. And I hoped some very specific and practical suggestions would be helpful.
P.S. Any surgical procedure, no matter how straightforward, can have complications. If any problems arise, see your doctor immediately.
Complications may include injury to the salivary gland ducts at the base of the frenulum web. They are paired openings side by side. Signs of infection would include fever, increased swelling, marked redness and pus drainage at the site of the wound. This would all be uncommon and unlikely, but possible. Also, If a person is on blood thinner medication or has a bleeding disorder, or if a person has diabetes, cancer or has any other immunosuppressive disorder like HIV or AIDS this procedure is contraindicated and should be avoided. Good health is a prerequisite. |
Edited by - x.j. on Feb 18 2008 6:39:16 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2008 : 4:53:03 PM
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Sorry D, but scar tissue does not "dissolve." It contracts like a rubber band, to tighten up the laceration.
Yes, not in precise medical terms. But speaking in layman's terms, it dissolves; it substantially disappears; it goes from bulky and obstructive to being unseen and irrelevant. This is why the Q-tip treatment is unnecessary.
Give it a try -- try the procedure without the Q-tip. I guarantee your results will be as good. It may take a while for the scar tissue to disappear, but it will disappear for sure.
but I wouldn't present any false expectation to the general readership of this forum, that somehow milking the tongue will assist in the overall process we are discussing
You know, ironically, I think the tongue-milking actually does the same thing as the Q-tip! It probably opens the cut enough to stop the scar tissue from forming across it (like the Q-tip), or alternatively maybe it even tears the scar tissue -- or maybe both. I don't know. But, I don't know what false expectations I could be making -- I don't think milking the tongue is so important.  But yes, if you milk the tongue vigourously, I think you may find less bulk of scar tissue forming. That was my impression anyway.
I think milking the tongue, or pulling the tongue, may pull a person a few weeks ahead in terms of progress, but it's a fairly constant few weeks -- and means little in the big picture of getting the limitation of the frenum removed over time. That matter, the removal of the frenum limitation, is really all that matters and is dependent on one and one thing only; the cutting of the limiting frenum fibers.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 18 2008 7:33:13 PM |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2008 : 12:03:41 AM
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Hi David,
I don't really see what your objection could be to using a Q-tip to keep the wound spread open to prevent closure and contracture of scar tissue, to keep the wound cleaned out of food particles and debris after meals and to remove the scab from bridging the gap. In any case, I just wanted to provide some basic information on a reasonable approach to this procedure and proper hygeine.
Go ahead and grab the tongue with a wet wash cloth wrapped around it, during showers daily and give it a good stretch, that can't do the tongue any harm though I doubt that would stretch the frenulum tether much if any. But it might feel kind of good. In fact I've tried just that, and I kind of liked it. Think of all the chakras in the tongue that might make this a great thing to do. It's a traditional practice according to the yoga manuals, and you might someday be able to touch the tip of your nose with your tongue eventually. That would be a good parlor trick.
Secondly, I think that it will be rare to encounter bleeding, infection, or damage to the salivary gland ducts at the base of the frenulum. Still, people with serious illnesses like cancer, HIV disease, who take blood thinners, or who have diabetes should skip this procedure.
Thirdly, be sure to keep the wound cleaned out of debris after meals, by at least rinsing the mouth out with some water, and be sure your toenail nipper is kept nice and clean and away from toenails.
That said, I think I have said everything I could conceivably and reasonable contribute on this subject, and I have been thinking about an entry along these lines for a while. I hope my suggestions will be useful around this house.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2008 : 12:19:42 AM
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I don't really see what your objection could be to using a Q-tip
None! I agree with you 100%! I was just saying that it isn't fundamentally necessary. But it might be of value to keep the scar tissues smaller, and cleaner.
Yes, the 'milking the tongue' does feel good, especially after some initial frenum-snipping has been done and the edge of the frenum is no longer sharp (when the edge is sharp, the 'milking' can make it very taut and it can hurt).
I'm thinking, the tongue's muscles, just like the other muscles in the body, can benefit from a good yogic stretch, which milking the tongue gives them. So this might be a good exercise indepenent of kechari, a sort of 'asana' for the tongue. I also think there is a positive subtle effect on mood when the tongue is stretched a bit and 'the prana released'. At least that is what I believe I detect. I don't know if anyone else finds that...
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2008 : 04:24:59 AM
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I've been using a sharp blade to do the cuts.
Any objection to this? |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2008 : 1:33:42 PM
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I don't know Louis. A sharp blade, like a razor blade, might be kind of hard to use under the tongue, to get the cut in exactly the same wound area precisely, whereas a toenail nipper is able to grasp the exact place, and when you know you're there, you can squeeze the nipper handles and place the cut exactly. But if you have refined your own technique and its working for you, must be OK to do what you're doing. For most people starting out on this procedure, a brand new sharp toenail nipper is the best tool over all, is my opinion.
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2008 : 2:16:12 PM
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Thanks John
I did buy a cuticle scissors but the frenum cord kept slipping out of its grasp.
Will try and see if they sell the toenail cutters you are talking of in my neck of the wood.
Are they like a wire cutter only smaller?
as in http://images.google.ie/images?hl=e...cutter&gbv=2
And when you grasp the frenum cord do you place the cutter right over the cord and just cut a little into the side of the frenum cord
or
Do you take a nick with the top of the cutter, and if so how deep a cut do you make?
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2008 : 4:37:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by John C
The frenulum consists of a cord like tether that is pure connective tissue and contains no vital structures like nerve, blood vessels nor muscle.
It is my understanding that the cord like tether is present at the front part of the frenulum. Further back (and to the sides of the cord), there is just soft tissue with blood and stuff.
Once the tongue after snipping have come in to kechari 2 position, from then on what anatomically parts are responsible for the further advancement to position 3 and 4? Is it the soft part of the frenum that will stretch, or is it the soft palate that will flex?
The question is, will there be a need for more snipping, and snipping of the bloody soft part of the frenum, or will all progress be by soft tissue stretching?
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Edited by - Lookatmynavelnow on Feb 21 2008 4:51:21 PM |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2008 : 4:55:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lookatmynavelnow
quote:
Originally posted by John C
The frenulum consists of a cord like tether that is pure connective tissue and contains no vital structures like nerve, blood vessels nor muscle.
It is my understanding that the cord like tether is present at the front part of the frenulum. Further back (and to the sides of the cord), there is just soft tissue with blood and stuff.
Once the tongue after snipping have come in to kechari 2 position, from then on what anatomically parts are responsible for the further advancement to position 3 and 4? Is it the soft part of the frenum that will stretch, or is it the soft palate that will flex?
The question is, will there be a need for more snipping, and snipping of the bloody soft part of the frenum, or will all progress be by soft tissue stretching?
Hi LAMNN:
The frenum tether is made of thousands of tiny tendon strands attached between the bottom of the tongue and the floor of the mouth. These are piled up all the way back to where the tongue and floor of the mouth meet, way in the back of the throat. It is a large mass of tendon strands. In that sense, it is not even possible, nor desirable, to remove the entire frenum. Higher stages of kechari will be reached long before.
When a tendon strand is severed, that is it for that strand. It won't grow back. But there are many more strands waiting behind it, going all the way back. They come to the surface in succession at the center edge of the frenum, the place of most tension.
If the frenum is the limiting factor for going to higher stages of kechari (usually the case), then trimming may proceed off and on for many years according to bhakti. Trimming the fleshy part of the frenum for its own sake will not be necessary or helpful, because it is flexible and will stretch as needed. In any case, that kind of trimming is not advised, especially on the sides of the frenum near the tongue, where there are some sizable blood vessels.
The center edge of the frenum at the point of greatest tension is the place, and it can remain the place for quite a long time, as new tendon strands are coming to the surface as we are going to higher stages of kechari. If it is taken in small steps like that, there will be practically no blood and very little risk, because all we are doing is snipping tiny tendon strands nearly exposed at the taunt edge of the frenum under the tongue. Very little flesh is being violated.
Not everyone's anatomy will play out in the above scenario. Some people have very little restriction in their frenum and don't need any trimming, while others may have a larger buried mass of tendon strands that does not come to the surface of the stretched frenum easily and is therefore harder to reach for trimming. In the latter case, a surgical approach may be best considered. The more cutting of flesh that may be involved, the more advisable it will be to leave it to a medical professional.
The guru is in you.
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scottfitzgerald
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2008 : 3:31:34 PM
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My bhakti has been growing to move in the direction of snipping. I can get my tongue up over/behind the soft palate with the help of my fingers, and just one "taste" of that sweet spot is all it took for me. Wonderful place, that is there. Whodathunk?
My question--I talk for a living...any fear that frenulum snipping will change my speech pattern at all? From what Yogani was saying in this thread, there are still plenty of fibers that we don't have to snip in order to achieve our higher purpose, but from a career standpoint, I'd hate to ruin my main tool. Any thoughts? |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2008 : 4:37:42 PM
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Hi Scott:
My experience over 20-some years of snipping off and on has been no effect on voice, except sometimes a little out of sorts for a day or two when bigger more aggressive snips were taken (ouch), and then fine with healing. Small snips should not affect your voice at all, and neither should a permanently reduced frenum. The radio interviews are offered as proof. 
The guru is in you.
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scottfitzgerald
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2008 : 10:16:04 PM
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| I'll start AFTER the interview tomorrow morning. :) |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 8:43:47 PM
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You can numb the frenulum/frenum web with Kava Root Extract prior to snipping, each time you wish to re-do it. To lessen the pain. Saturate a cotton tip applicator and apply for several minutes.
This is available at health food stores. What do you think Yogani? |
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Maatsuah
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2008 : 08:18:56 AM
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I am so glad you are covering this again John. I have been following a consistenly practice for over a year now and didn't know whether that was too soon to start Kechari Mudra. But I have been doing stage 1 for about 6 months and decided that I want to at least start trying to move into stage 2.
I know this has been covered before but I am always grateful for the additional info.
I believe I am stable enough in my practices to move to stage 2 now. I am a little bit intimidated by this process, but I really want to try this anyway. |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2008 : 10:27:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by John C
You can numb the frenulum/frenum web with Kava Root Extract prior to snipping, each time you wish to re-do it. To lessen the pain. Saturate a cotton tip applicator and apply for several minutes.
This is available at health food stores. What do you think Yogani?
Hi John:
Sorry so late coming back on this. Things have been piling up here lately.
I think anything that numbs the pain of a kechari snip can be helpful, even just a small piece of ice.
The downside is that if there is full numbing, one might be tempted to cut more than is prudent for self-snipping. That could lead to some discomfort during healing for a few days. It is not a very big health risk, but the morning after could be an "ouch." Then some more numbing might be in order without any further snipping for a while.
I prefer the tiny snip approach myself, per lesson 108, which involves minimal pain and practically no blood. It requires very little except persistence and patience over time. That could be said of all yoga.
This is the essence of self-pacing.
See my post to LAMNN above for more thoughts on frenum reduction, and check the main website topic index for all the lessons on kechari mudra.
The guru is in you.
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2008 : 10:34:50 PM
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I noted a reference to kechari mudra in "Yoga Chudamani Upanishad" by Swami Satyadharma. On page 128:
The form of khechari described in the traditional hatha yoga texts involves the gradual cutting of the frenulum and elongation of the tongue...First the tongue has to be elongated, which is done by holding it with a piece of cloth and gently massaging,stretching and rolling it from side to side. Then the frenulum is cut very gradually week by week with surgical methods or by rubbing it with abrasive materials. During this process the tongue is massaged daily by milking it for long periods of time with butter or oil. This process is continued for many months until the tongue becomes very long. Then it is possible to fold it back and slide it up through the nasal cavity at the back of the throat. In this way the ida and pingala nadis are effectively blocked and lalana chakra, at the back of the throat, is stimulated. There is a close relationship between lalana and bindu visarga at the top back of the head, where the moon energy resides. Stimulation of lalana causes the nector or ambrosial fluid to drip down from bindu to permeate the entire body." |
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ThisIsTruth
41 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2010 : 06:05:29 AM
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x.j.
10x for the excellent practical advices about frenulum cord trimming. |
Edited by - ThisIsTruth on Jan 14 2010 08:12:45 AM |
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practical advice on frenulum snipping
