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Sagittarius
14 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 15 2008 : 02:30:04 AM
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| I started making snips. It looks like they get completely healed in 3 days. I mean the frenum restores itself, and when I cut again I cut the frenum as if it was never snipped before. What do I do wrong and what do I need to do in order the frenum not to get healed? |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2008 : 11:46:30 AM
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I'm no expert on this, just starting myself.
Just wondering if you are stretching the frenum between snips?
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Sagittarius
14 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2008 : 1:35:42 PM
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What do you mean by stretching the frenum?
I only try to put the tongue in kechari position from time to time, but not on the day I make a snip. I don't see these manipulations affecting wound on the frenum in any way. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2008 : 6:14:33 PM
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Just from reading the posts on kechari it seems the advise is a little at a time and patience.
Stretching is basically what you are doing, pushing the tongue back to put the frenum under tension. You can also push the tongue back with your finger to put more pressure on the frenum.
But, as I have said, I'm a complete beginner at this, and am going mainly on what I have read in other threads.
How many cuts have you made? |
Edited by - Sparkle on Feb 15 2008 6:17:23 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
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insideout
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2008 : 6:45:25 PM
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quote:
I mean the frenum restores itself, and when I cut again I cut the frenum as if it was never snipped before.
In my experience, although it my look like the frenum is back to the point you started a few days after snipping, there is still about a 1mm gain. Have you been doing what you are doing for a while now? If you are just starting out, give it a few more snips and see if there is a difference within a month or so. |
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Sagittarius
14 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2008 : 03:18:28 AM
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Sparkle, I've made 3 snips. Waiting for the 3rd to heal in order to make the 4th.
Shanti, I've read everything, but still not sure wether it is normal if after snipping the wounds heals and the frenum looks like it was never snipped. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2008 : 10:44:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sagittarius
Shanti, I've read everything, but still not sure wether it is normal if after snipping the wounds heals and the frenum looks like it was never snipped.
Hi Sagittarius,
Since you have snipped just thrice, it may take a few more snips before you will actually see the callous forming at the point where you have been snipping (provided of course you are snipping at the same spot).
Some at the forum have snipped for awhile and made progress and some who have snipped and not made much progress and some have never snipped and have reached stage 2 or higher. Each person is different and what works for one person may not work for another.
The only thing I can tell you is to snip (with self pacing) if it feels right (your bhakti guides you) to do, continue with milking and pushing your tongue backwards. Give it a few weeks, months and see how things progress.
This practice has not worked for a few people and Yogani has said..
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=3165#27171
If you have been trimming the frenum all this time for kechari mudra, with little release of the tongue for going back and up, then this may point to an anatomical difference you have. I don't think it would be wise to force the issue with bigger snips, exposing yourself to greater risks than necessary.
If your bhakti is burning for kechari and you have to do something, then a better course may be to go see a dentist or oral surgeon with laser capability. Then you can be sure you will not be running an excessive health risk. A few around here have gone that route with satisfactory results. The approach to trimming the frenum in Lesson 108 is designed to cover a broad spectrum of people, but obviously not everyone.
Kechari mudra is not an absolute prerequisite for advancement on our spiritual path, and pressing it on principle or intellectual obsession rather than on natural energetic bhakti is not the best approach. Much better to stay focused on our core practices of deep meditation and spinal breathing pranayama for the long term (adding in asanas, samyama and other less extreme measures along the way) -- this combination will take us very far.
It is perfectly okay to be doing kechari stage 1, 1/2, or even 0, as we continue forward. You will know by your own feelings about it. Just self-pace your bhakti to avoid becoming reckless. As we know, bhakti can be reckless sometimes, not minding for our health. It wants it all right now, but that is not how it works on this earth plane, where everything takes time. We are going as fast as we can while preserving life and limb, so we can be here doing practices over the long term. 
Give it a little time Sagittarius. I think it will be fine. Yoga is more a marathon than a sprint... so just take it easy.. and give it some time.. and you will see progress. The more you "do practices" to "get" results.. the slower your progress will get... the more you ease into your practice.. the faster things begin to happen.
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Edited by - Shanti on Feb 16 2008 10:48:08 AM |
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Sagittarius
14 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2008 : 2:01:37 PM
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I can touch uvula with my tongue and the back wall of the throat if I help with a finger. This is not a result of 3 snips, but my start point. I know that ability to touch uvula means I am close to stage 2, but I can't move the tongue up much, because after putting it back it has a tendency to roll, but not to stand straight, especially the tip of the tongue.
I think the process of removing the frenum is the same for almost everyone. Personal thing is only whether it gives you much additional flexibility or not much. I just feel a little embarassed since I cut some place, it heals, I cut it, it heals again. I am just wondering whether I am moving anywhere this way. |
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Thokar
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2008 : 5:07:30 PM
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Sagittarius,
If you can already touch the uvula and back of the throat with fingers help then theres a very good chance you can get into kechari right now without snipping anymore... The trick to it is when you push your tongue back to the back of the throat with the fingers help then while supporting with the fingers try to push your tongue forward (meaning back towards your mouth) when you do this while continuing to hold the tongue back with the fingers you should feel a king of elastic, tight tendon... this is actually the flap of the soft palate, the reason your tongue isnt going into kechari isn't because your frenulum is too tight its because the soft palate tendon is very stiff at first... when u feel your tongue press against that stiff tendon continue to push forward(it will feel very strange and uncomfortable the first time) and the soft palate will fold down and hold your tongue in....this is kechari(now once you get to that point that is only stage 2)
The reason I tell you all this is because I sort of went through the same thing when I first got into kechari... kept stretching the tongue thinking the frenulum is the problem, the problem was not knowing about pushing forward to push the soft palate down to form kechari.. In my opinion this really is the trick to it... I believe anyone who can touch the uvula can 100% get into kechari without further snipping.. just the use of finger assistance on the first try and the feeling of the elastic tendon folding the soft palate down... |
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Sagittarius
14 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 03:01:16 AM
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Thokar, I will continue putting the tongue back and forward - maybe one day I will succeed and push the soft palate. Since the end of the tongue tends to roll back it is not that easy to do.
However nobody answered the question I am asking - is it normal that each time I snip the tongue, it gets healed and looks almost like as if it was never snipped, that almost no notch/cut remains present on it? I am doubting whether I am moving anywhere because it looks like I am cutting the same place and it gets healed each time. |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 07:01:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sagittarius
Thokar, I will continue putting the tongue back and forward - maybe one day I will succeed and push the soft palate. Since the end of the tongue tends to roll back it is not that easy to do.
However nobody answered the question I am asking - is it normal that each time I snip the tongue, it gets healed and looks almost like as if it was never snipped, that almost no notch/cut remains present on it? I am doubting whether I am moving anywhere because it looks like I am cutting the same place and it gets healed each time.
Hi Sagittarius:
Thokar offers you good advice on the forward thrust once the tongue is able to get behind the uvula with or without finger help. Once we can reach the back edge of the soft palate, initial entry into stage 2 is not as much about going up as it is about pressing the soft palate forward and down. Going up is more for continuing further into stage 2 and to higher stages of kechari. That is when the frenum will be limiting.
Regarding snipping the frenum, the key in that is to be reducing the tendon which is inside the outer skin. In most people the tendon will present itself on the surface along the narrow edge at the center of the frenum when it is stretched, and it is easy to take small snips from it there, as discussed in Lesson 108 and elsewhere in the online lessons and support forums (try some searches for additional perspectives).
The key to reducing the frenum is in reducing the tendon, which is made of thousands of tiny strands. Those will not grow back once snipped. If only skin is being snipped, then there will not be much release.
In some cases, due to personal anatomy, the tendon will not present itself at the surface at the center edge of the frenum when stretched, and the tendon itself may not be easy to reach in that case. There are ways to do it that have been discussed here, but it may be a more involved procedure (see tooled talavya). Going to these measures may or may not be effective in reducing the tendon, depending on personal anatomy. Tooled talavya is not an endorsed AYP approach, though it has been discussed extensively in the support forums.
Other alternatives consist of relying on stretching alone with traditional talavya (or variations), milking the tongue in concert with other methods, or considering laser surgery by a dentist or oral surgeon.
Each of us will find the best way according to our bhakti (spiritual desire) and personal anatomy. You will know what is right for you as you continue to move along your path. It is suggested to keep a balance in your approach, be patient, and avoid extremes that can bring undue health risk.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Thokar
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 10:38:53 AM
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Hi Sagittarius,
If you say that when you push the tongue back the tip of the tongue rolls easily, then that is part of your problem, when you push the tongue back and support with your fingers you have to try to keep the tip of your tongue very solid and pointed straight as much as possible... Kind of like your are tensing and stretching your whole tongue after you've pushed it back... After you do this then try to push the whole tongue forward a bit, and the tip of your tongue should be able to feel the elastic tendon, once you feel the tendon with the tip of the tongue then you should try to push it forward and down.. Bare in mind these instructions are only for the first time or 2 you get into kechari, once in kechari your tongue will naturally stretch the soft palate and it will become very very easy to reenter kechari..
hope this helps |
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Sagittarius
14 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 11:09:59 AM
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I can touch the edge of the soft palate, but can't press it forward and down. I can press it a little, but the edge kind of rolls, and if I close my mouth the tongue gets out of there. If I do daily attempts, I think sooner or later it will be pressed.
Today I've made the 4th snip and for the 1st time saw kind of strings inside. I guess this is the tendon. I've made some tiny snips of it inside the wound. Now I understand that those strings won't grow, but only skin will.
Before I was making snips closer to the tongue rather than in the middle. Probably better make all the snips in the middle of the frenum in future. |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 12:50:06 PM
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PS: A finer point -- for most people the shortest distance to get behind the back edge of the soft palate with the tip of the tongue will be either on the left or right side, not usually the middle. Try and see. This is in the lessons. It is also the natural way to go once we are beyond finger help.
The guru is in you. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 1:20:16 PM
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| I can also easily go behind the uvula. My problem is that if I put a finger in or when I try to push the soft palate back edge I activate the "throw up reflex" or whatever you might call it. Is that reflex naturally going to disappear when it's natural timing for kechari step 2? Or can that be something to practice away? That's what's preventing me from discovering kechari any further... |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 1:24:10 PM
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Hi emc,
For me, the gagging just naturally went away with practice. Just try to relax with it and keep trying. If you can get behind the uvula then you can easily get into stage 2
Paul |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 1:31:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
I can also easily go behind the uvula. My problem is that if I put a finger in or when I try to push the soft palate back edge I activate the "throw up reflex" or whatever you might call it. Is that reflex naturally going to disappear when it's natural timing for kechari step 2? Or can that be something to practice away? That's what's preventing me from discovering kechari any further...
Hi EMC:
Yes, it will go away. As soon as you are "in" the tongue goes forward and the tickle at the base of the tongue and deep in the back of the throat is significantly reduced, which is where the gag reflex is centered. That, and we acclimate in general to the new positioning of everything in there.
Your bhakti will tell you what to do. 
The guru is in you.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 2:33:36 PM
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| Oki, thanks! |
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Kechari - snips get healed
