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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 10 2008 : 9:14:49 PM
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What is the difference between an enlightened, realized, or mentally ill person? This is something that I was contemplating the other day, since all seem to share common characteristics.
I remembered working as a psyche tech for a dual diagnosed treatment facility for the mentally ill/chemically addicted years ago. I was sitting behind the glass counting medications and a patient walked in.
As I slid back the glass, this female patient, we'll call Terry, said, 'I'm fighting against the gorilla forces!' and 'I'm a member of the viet cong! There out there! Out there!!!' and she proceeded to speak in what she percieved to be a vietmanese dialect while pointing to the direction outside of the treatment facility.
Anyway, I knew she was delusional, but I decided to look out the window anyway. Why? I dunno, I was young and maybe I wanted to make her feel better by allaying her fears.
So, I made my first mistake by saying, "Don't worry, no one is out there". And, "You didn't take your meds, did you, Terry?", which only increased her rapidity of speaking in vietmanese tongue.
And so, I realized that this didn't work and decided to take a minute and observe the situation.
But how did I knew she was delusional? Well, there were quite a few things. One, I knew that she was caucasion and not vietmanese. Two, there wasn't a war going on. Three, she didn't speak vietmanese. Four, she didn't have on a soldier's uniform; instead wore a bandanna, torn jean jacket and broomstick slung over her shoulder dressed like she was carrying an imaginary M16 to a Bonjovi Concert. And on and on...
So I took a minute and decided to shift gears with Terry and noticed that she was wearing her favorite animal print shirt. And so I said, "That's a cool shirt". And almost in an instant her face relaxed and she smiled. We were able to carry on a rational conversation along these lines until I could ascertain whether she had taking her medications or not or if her delusional state was drug induced.
This was something I was contemplating the other day in relation to enlightenment, realization, and various profound states that people encounter along the way.
And it occured to me that both relate phenomenon of visual/audio states or unrelational aspects between their outside worlds and inside worlds, the only difference being that the mentally ill person takes things literally and is unable to abstract him/herself from what is real and what isn't.
But how can one truly know what is a state of enlightenment and isn't a symptom of mental illness?
I would like to hear what others have to say on the subject before I comment any further:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Feb 10 2008 9:16:13 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 12:50:18 AM
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Enlightenment is the opposite of mental illness, I think. Samadhi, for me, is not some strange spiritual event. When I enter into samadhi, I come back to the world more present than before. My beliefs are cast aside, and reality is apparent.
Words that I'd use to describe someone who is actually enlightened: centered, serene, wise.
Words that I'd use to describe someone who is mentally ill:
scattered, scared, oblivious. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 01:04:54 AM
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This question vexed me for years.
But the answer is simple: the mentally ill are neither happy nor peaceful. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 11 2008 01:05:09 AM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 09:06:08 AM
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I agree, and would like to add that in order to experience the next world it would make sense that someone would experience hearing AUM, and other visual phenomenon, just as a child does who was born in this world. It also corresponds to what every spiritual tradition states concerning spiritual awakening, via chakra markers, since it mirrors our world here and now. 'As above so below'. It's an interesting process and I think that we can go overboard with self-inquiry too, picking apart every spiritual nuiance, such as hearing AUM or experiencing bliss, or other phenomenon instead of allowing the process to unfold naturally, realizing that a healthy balance is necessary between meditation and introspection.
Thanks for the feedback, take care:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Feb 11 2008 09:15:23 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 09:21:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott:
Words that I'd use to describe someone who is actually enlightened: centered, serene, wise.
Scott, fwiw, there are a bunch of reports of saints of both the east and the west who don't necessarily hew to all those qualities, though they are certainly the qualities that teachers and others who sell themselves as enlightened aim to project.
In the realm of self-image, the only distinguishing characteristic of such a person that makes sense is the LACK of self-image.
In other words, one can be centered, serene, and wise without SEEMING centered, serene, and wise. People who SEEM like that generally have a staked interest in projecting these chosen qualities (or in imitating real-life or imagined figures who've projected them). But spiritual work is about utterly removing one's staked interest....one's need to "seem" like anything.
Those who seem wise (to choose an example) are generally not perceived that way because they truly are wise and this true quality somehow wafts from them. They're perceived as wise because they deem themselves wise and project a veneer of wisdom. Or they wear glasses and have a pointy beard, etc. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 11 2008 2:45:11 PM |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 09:25:18 AM
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In Yoga and Psychotherapy by Swami Rama he says that when wise Yogis were presented with this question they did not even understand why in the West we associate the two - schizophrenic and enlightened. In the book, though, he gives an interesting illustrative analogy to (as usual) a circle on which one end is mental illness and the other end is enlightenment. In this respect they can both be opposites, yet close. Perhaps in mental illness the ego and personality is not so much "transcended" by completely obliterated and in the absence of its discriminative faculty instead of seeing pure unadulterated bliss and silence, the untrained mind of the psychotic is like a broken dam that is flooding this absence with subconcious or perhaps transpersonal material.
I find it comforting...but I think most of us consider every now and then if we are approaching schizophrenia or enlightenment.
:-) |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 09:30:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by anthony574
Perhaps in mental illness the ego and personality is not so much "transcended" by completely obliterated and in the absence of its discriminative faculty
Did you mean a "but" in place of that "by"?
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 5:55:51 PM
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I suppose one major thing the 'enlightened' and the 'mentally ill' have in common is that they are quite different to the 'normal'. That may be the biggest reason why the two are sometimes confounded.
Just to throw a further spanner in the analytic works -- mental illness and enlightenment are very different things, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are mutually exclusive things -- I believe it is possible to have a significant measure of both. Now when that happens, boy does it get confusing to everyone looking on.....
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 7:57:26 PM
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I like your first point better: If insanity is defined by thinking and acting in ways outside societal norms, the enlightened are absolutely insane. Though my pragmatic "test" (above) still works :)
But I'm not sure the truly mentally ill can ever be enlightened (at least not so long as they remain mentally ill....depression, for example, can be transcendable, but schizophrenia definitely is not...though it can remit). But that's an intuitive speculation, so probably not much worth debating.
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 8:15:23 PM
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| Who says enlightened people act in ways outside of societal norms? I would say that enlightened people are the most normal of everyone. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 9:03:02 PM
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quote:
Jim: In other words, one can be centered, serene, and wise without SEEMING centered, serene, and wise. People who SEEM like that generally have a staked interest in projecting these chosen qualities (or in imitating real-life or imagined figures who've projected them). But spiritual work is about utterly removing one's staked interest....one's need to "seem" like anything.
Those who seem wise (to choose an example) are generally not perceived that way because they truly are wise and this true quality somehow wafts from them. They're perceived as wise because they deem themselves wise and project a veneer of wisdom. Or they wear glasses and have a pointy beard, etc.
Maybe it's like that of a wise man who takes three lazy sons out to the forest at their badgering that he give them enlightenment. Though unprepared, he promises them enlightenment, regardless, if they complete this one simple task before sun break.
So he says to his three sons, "Bring me three branches from the wisest tree in the forest and I will make you the same as me".
After some time, his first son returns with three enormous branches and plops them at his father's feet and says, "These are truly the wisest branches from the forest. They were taken from the oldest tree, whose roots run deep and towers above all of the rest of the trees of the forest".
So his father patiently listens and tells him to wait for his two brothers to return and he'll tell him if he is correct.
So his second son returns with three medium sized branches and plops them at his father's feet and says, "These are truly the wisest branches in the forest. They were taken from a tree that appeared to be no different than all of the rest, not preferring itself superior to the next".
So his father patiently listens and tells him to wait for his other brother to return and he will tell him if he is correct.
So his third son returns with an armful of tiny branches and plops them at his father's feet and says, "These branches were taken from the forest floor and are wiser than all of the rest, since they have sacrificed everything so that the next generation can thrive".
Again, his father patiently listens...
As his three sons are anxiously awaiting to hear who was the wisest of them all a hiker strolls by.
So the father says to his three sons, I can already tell that that you are not ready. I will ask one more simple question to prove this. And to further illustrate my point the answer will not be in the form of words, but in the greater form of action. If you can perform this action, you are truly ready for enlightenment. So they shake their heads agreeing to this test.
As they are sitting around the heap of branches. Their father turns to the hiker and yells (and much to their despair), "Hey, buddy!! You got a match?!".
LOLOLOL:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Feb 11 2008 11:09:25 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2008 : 11:32:46 PM
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Jim said:
But I'm not sure the truly mentally ill can ever be enlightened (at least not so long as they remain mentally ill....depression, for example, can be transcendable, but schizophrenia definitely is not...though it can remit). But that's an intuitive speculation, so probably not much worth debating.
Well, all mental illnesses are on a scale of severity, and the line between mildly abnormal and genuinely ill is somewhat arbitrary. So what a given person calls mentally ill is a partly semantics. What I'm saying here is that I think you can have significant measure of the mental abnormalities that are called 'mental illnes' and still have a significant measure of what is called 'enlightened'. I think that some of the people called 'crazy wise' are in that category. Maybe you've heard some of the stories of crazy saints of India?
Some people would say they have no element of derangement, only of enlightenment. I would say that's true of only some of them, and that some have elements of derangement at the same time as elements of enlightenment. I'd say some had elements only of derangement, and were wrongly considered enlightened. That's the way it goes.
Scott said: Who says enlightened people act in ways outside of societal norms? I would say that enlightened people are the most normal of everyone.
When Jim's saying societal norms, I don't think he's saying that those norms are normal or healthy. So enlightened people may be 'normal' while not normal by societies norms!!
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 07:31:31 AM
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Hi you guys,
At one point in time they held a council to determine if Ramakrishna was enlightened or crazy, because his behavior, driven by bhakti, was so bizarre that some people doubted his sanity. Well, you can figure out that he wasn't deemed insane and here we all are today.
Interesting contrast that his most famous disciple and emmisary, Swami Vivekananda, who started the ball rolling here in the west, was the epitome of societal adaptability and appropriateness, a golden boy. But then his role in life required it of him.
On the other hand, one could take the position that Ramakrishna's behavior was totally appropriate as well, but just did not appear so to the average East Indian. He probably would have wound up in the asylum had he lived here in the west.
Best, yb. |
Edited by - yogibear on Feb 12 2008 07:49:21 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 07:56:13 AM
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My psychologist friend says there is no such thing as "normal". Everybody has something about them that could be called abnormal.
I think the difference is whether you are trying to determine whether someone else is mentally ill, or whether you are yourself. And the same with enlightenment. There are many people who you might think are mentally ill by their behavior and mannerisms, but they can cope with society perfectly well, and would not be considered ill by an expert.
The same goes for enlightenment. You can't tell from the outside if someone is enlightened. You can find huge clues that would lead you to believe someone is or is not enlightened, but you can be wrong. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 10:00:13 AM
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Getting back to Ramakrishna, I would say he was partly crazy, and that's OK.
Our need to say someone wasn't partly crazy at all, can be apparent kindness on our part but, ironically on closer examination, it can be reflection of the stigmatization of mental illness or oddness. We stigmatize physical disability/abnormality much less. When a crippled person (like FDR) becomes president of the US, we admire him for it. We don't hurry to say he wasn't crippled after all. Rather, when we see what happened, we say, One up for crippled people everywhere!
Ramakrishna was a kick-ass phenomenon of a spiritual teacher in India and partly crazy, that's what I say. One up for India! One up for Ramakrishna! One up for crazy people everywhere! 
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 11:31:43 AM
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quote:
Scott said: Who says enlightened people act in ways outside of societal norms? I would say that enlightened people are the most normal of everyone.
quote:
When Jim's saying societal norms, I don't think he's saying that those norms are normal or healthy. So enlightened people may be 'normal' while not normal by societies norms!!
Norms that are healthy for people living in ego start seeming highly arbitrary and a little silly once ego starts to dissolve. Coloring outside the lines is natural. The new "norm" becomes Compassion, but acting from compassion, without strict adherence to norms (and let's face it, the norm is not exactly compassion) is as crazy-seeming as anything.
A few months ago I was told a story of a fellow who would do things like give away his coat to strangerson the street who looked cold, and he'd walk away coatless himself. This story was told to me to demonstrate that that fellow was really disturbed and messed up. The storyteller clicked his tongue in exasperation. And, as a stupefying postscript, he (the story-teller) was a very illustrious hatha yoga guru. So go figure. |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 12:38:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Ramakrishna was a kick-ass phenomenon of a spiritual teacher in India and partly crazy, that's what I say. One up for India! One up for Ramakrishna! One up for crazy people everywhere!
Hi All:
In the avadhuta tradition, a philosophy of non-duality (see Avadhuta Gita), sages are referred to as being "crazy wise." It is a term of endearment.
It is a term that certainly applied to Ramakrishna, in a beautiful way. More than a century later, the West owes its budding yoga to him.
May we become naturally crazy wise like that, and all of humanity will be transformed for the better.
This is not mental illness, of course. It is spiritual genius, and it longs to be awakened in all of us.
The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 1:31:29 PM
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Yogani said:
This is not mental illness, of course. It is spiritual genius, and it longs to be awakened in all of us.
Yogani, I just don't know what you're saying -- I don't know what the 'this' is when you say 'this is not mental illness'. I'm saying that I believe people may have some mental illness and spiritual genius at the same time, and I think Ramakrishna may be an example. Do you think they can't have both at the same time? Or do you just think Ramakrishna in particular had no mental illness at all? Or is it just that his spiritual genius wasn't in itself mental illness, which I would certainly agree with?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 12 2008 1:43:50 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 2:09:34 PM
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Hi David:
"Mental illness" is a man made thing, defined by certain measures -- usually in terms of disability, anti-social behavior, or tendency to do self-harm. It depends on who is doing the measuring and with what parameters, doesn't it?
While some would judge a Ramakrishna to be at least part mentally ill, I would not. I would call him "crazy wise." It is just a way of acknowledging the eccentricities of a spiritual condition that is beyond measurement.
Many geniuses have been regarded as crazy (or mentally ill), at least in some measure. But were they? Only to the extent society could not tolerate their behavior, sometimes rightly so, and sometimes not.
It is sort of like asking, when is ahimsa (non-harming) really ahimsa? Is swatting a fly not ahimsa? There is a spectrum of views on this, just as there is for what constitutes mental illness. Obviously, the extremes in either case are not in question. It is the vast middle ground that gets constantly debated.
With enlightenment becoming more common in the years ahead (we hope), the parameters for what constitutes mental illness will have to be redefined. We don't want to be measuring 21st (or 19th) century sages by 20th century standards. We could end up locking up the wrong people! 
The guru is in you.
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 2:16:18 PM
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Two branches converge on a lonely road...: LOLOL. A road that we all have walked... a road that yogani describes here...
quote:
yogani: So there is a going out to establishment of abiding inner silence (witness), and then a coming back into full action with inner silence. That is the journey of yoga. That is why daily activity is an important part of the over all practice, to stabilize stillness in action. We are not leaving forever into samadhi without objects. It is not a one way trip. We are systematically going out and bringing samadhi back into daily living. So it is very practical.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=3440#29993
Going out... going in... going out... The craziness of it all!
That's what it's like, differing grades of perception, (as Eitherfish stated) since we know genius is only genius to the observer. In other words, a genius sitting beside another genius is not genius, but we know what yogani meant when he said it, because there is always someone greater than we are.
And the same applies to comparing a normal person and a crazy person, although genius is really not mental illness, again, as yogani stated, because the spiritual genius is aware of what he/she is doing, whether he/she pretends to be crazy or decides to play student or fool or joker, or whatever role/action is called for when dealing with daily life. Because he/she knows what levels of perception others are operating from and is able to adjust to the situation thereby extracting the most benefit to help the person, by focusing, on himself/herself, only, therefore not interfering or being rewrapt within the matrix of karma, or daily life, being of the greatest benefit through this detachment, which is true compassion, as Jim noted.
The example of the person giving away his coat is something that Abdul Baha would do also and was not only the physical expression of giving up the coat to provide warmth, but there was the deeper meaning of giving away of the self, or losing the self identity (ego) in order to help another person. In other words, I will be the same as you were before you got my coat. I will look as though I am homeless to observers or passers by. I will be called crazy, a fool or genius or martyr or whatever... My example when I was speaking to my neice, being fully conscious of what I was doing. 'I feel like I've lost my self in a lot of ways': LOL. It was true, though, but not in the sense that she may or may not of comprehended.
This process is the same thing a parent will do with a child to build Self Esteem. Parent: I don't know about this equation... Hmm... this is something... It's a doozy'... So the child immediately wants to please... Child: I can solve this dilemna! Let me try! LOL. And this is not a lie, or manipulation, because the parent carefully words things (right speech) to allow the other person to perform/unfold the (right action). And it's never about the equation (attached mind/or as emc said: thoughts) is it? It's what's behind it. LOL:  LOL, good stuff. Thank you, all, and especially yogani.
VIL
P.S. this is something new I'm discovering.... It's great! And now you know why Adyashanti focuses on stories of himself (wink/wink):
quote:
yogani: This is samadhi with attention present, relating to objects while operating in the world.
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Edited by - VIL on Feb 12 2008 3:46:28 PM |
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LittleTurtle
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 3:25:43 PM
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David, regarding Ramakrishna, what specifically are you referring to when you say he was "partly crazy" or mentally ill? Do you as a yogi still feel that experiencing visions, rapturous bhakti, spontaneous kriyas, translates into mental illness?
I think you are perhaps in the medical field or psychotherapy or some such, are you not? As you know, conditioning and culture play a huge part in out interpretations of what we see and experience. In India a "crazy baba" may not be seriously considered crazy, just different from the average and of course has a "role" as does everyone in that culture (many roles in fact).
So considering that within a culture that has definite roles for crazy yogis, in other words, they are able to function in that role in society or whatever, how is that mental illness?
In our culture Ramakrishna would be probably be labeled in one of the schizophrenia-type catagories.
In fact this question brings up yet another question. How does one discriminate between psychotic delusions and hallucinations vs true spiritual vision? I think this is a very important question. As yogis we are mining for truth. How are we to understand our experiences when so many would be ready to label them as a sort of soft psychosis? (of course this again brings up the whole "scenery" issue-imho Yogani is so right on).
I have come to some of my own conclusions regarding these issues and yet still some questions remain. I'm interested to hear more from everyone regarding this. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 3:41:21 PM
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As long as you believe your thoughts you're insane. Favourite quote from Byron Katie...
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Black Rebel Radio
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 3:47:30 PM
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But what if one of your thoughts is to not believe your thoughts.
I'm having a spiritual accident now....
Clean underwear packed.
Mac |
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LittleTurtle
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2008 : 4:12:26 PM
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| LOL |
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Godsproblem
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2008 : 09:03:43 AM
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| i am crazy as hell, but i am not unhappy about it lmao |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2008 : 10:29:54 AM
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I promise not to chicken out of a response to LittleTurtle. But no time for it today...
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Enlightenment/Realization/Mental Illness
