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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 20 2008 : 3:15:54 PM
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| WIll snipping allow the soft parts of the mouth to fall back during sleep and create snoring? |
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YogaPat
Canada
12 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2008 : 3:48:46 PM
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Hey LAMNN
I don't think so. I've snipped mine about as much as you can - so far so good!
P |
Edited by - YogaPat on Jan 20 2008 3:53:36 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2008 : 9:39:21 PM
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I have sometimes wondered if Kechari mudra (not so much the snipping) could cause snoring (and maybe sleep apnea) because it could loosen the soft palate. My answer is I don't know, but I am inclined to think not. We'd probably have heard of it in the yoga tradition if it were true.
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2008 : 06:08:16 AM
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| I have read some posts about snipping, but it looks like no one is talking about that anymore. Was that just a passing fad, or maybe the result did not match the effort? |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2008 : 09:32:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lookatmynavelnow
I have read some posts about snipping, but it looks like no one is talking about that anymore. Was that just a passing fad, or maybe the result did not match the effort?
Many who were snipping can now do kechari stage 2.. and once that happens.. the discussion kinda stops. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2008 : 09:57:05 AM
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quote:
Lookatmynavelnow said:
I have read some posts about snipping, but it looks like no one is talking about that anymore. Was that just a passing fad, or maybe the result did not match the effort?
Hi L, I finally got the urge to do a snip, never had any inclination before, but got a touch of ecsatacy when I put my tongue back to my soft pallet and thought mmmmhhh that's nice
Had terrible trouble actually making the cut. Bought a cuticle scissors but the frenum kept slipping away.
Finally got a sharp blade and, with disinfectant, managed to get a very small cut after several back and forth slices. There must be an easier way?
If you want to start snipping we can share our trials and tribulations
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2008 : 6:27:26 PM
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[/quote]
Many who were snipping can now do kechari stage 2.. and once that happens.. the discussion kinda stops.
[/quote]
Well then... I would be very interested in hearing from all you yogis who have done the snipping; are you silent because you are blissed out or are you silent because you cant talk (sic!) about it since the desired results did not manifest? The question is, would you do it again knowing what you know now? |
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2008 : 7:31:19 PM
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These are some of the people who have done snipping:
bewell
Scott
david_obsidian
Victor
veritasophia
sparkyfoxMD
meg
Alvin Chan
mrityunjay_singh_1983
bewell
Christi
Richard
Thokar
Kirtanman
Shanti
Would any of you care to make a comment on the snipping benefits?
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2008 : 11:28:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lookatmynavelnow
Would any of you care to make a comment on the snipping benefits?
Hello L@MNN & All,
The practice of snipping the frenulum beneath the tongue enabled me to enter Khechari Mudra Stage 2 (as defined by Advanced Yoga Practices). The addition of Khechari Mudra to my daily yoga practices yielded certain key benefits, and I heartily recommend adoption of the practice.
Has the practice of Khechari Mudra provided all the benefits I had imagined, anticipated and hoped for?
Honestly, no.
The practice of Khechari Mudra has contributed to benefits infinitely - and I use that term quite literally - beyond what I was capable of imagining, anticipating and hoping even existed, or was possible ... to orders of magnitude so vast, that words literally do not have the ability to describe.
Here is a link to a thread I started a while back on
Samadhi.
Before snipping, and subsequently entering Khechari Mudra Stage 2, I could not have written that post.
After entering Khechari Mudra, I did.
And I don't say this boastingly, but with a humility and gratitude so profound that it certainly cannot be expressed in words.
As I write this post, I literally sit here with tears of joy in my eyes, and a loopy grin on my face, as I realize: even that Samadhi post seems a long way back, consciousness & bliss-wise.
Like many practitioners of yoga, I wondered for what seemed like a LONG time, where all the amazingly "good stuff" was hidden, and how I might obtain it.
Now, I wonder ... daily ... literally ... how the abundance, beauty and utter glory of Self, of consciousness, of life ... of THIS ... can be this limitless, this staggeringly, awesomely, boundlessly REAL.
All I can tell you, is:
The dawning of living awareness of reality seems to be augmented significantly by sticking your tongue up your nose, from the inside.
Do I expect you to believe me? Of course not. I will, however, point out that I'm in good company, regarding this opinion.
From the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, Chapter 3, Verse 53:
"There is only one seed germinating the whole universe from it; and there is only one Mudra, called Khechari. There is only one Deva (God) without any one's support, and there is one condition called Manonmani."
As Jesus said (Matthew 13:45-46):
“The kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it."
Is Khechari Mudra that pearl of great price?
No.
It can just go a very long way toward showing you exactly where it is (and the very literal fact that there's nowhere it isn't.)
The most sacred number in the science of Self-Realization is 108.
Yogani outlined the basics of Khechari Mudra in AYP Lesson 108 for a reason:
Khechari Mudra can be one of the most important keys to realization available.
Is it essential? Honestly, No. The world has seen plenty of fully realized souls who never heard of Khechari.
Can it make a significant difference?
Yes.
It most assuredly can.
Yoga ... Union ... Living Awareness of the Bliss of Self ... Satchidananda ... is not actually something you get, or attain ... it's who you actually are ... the natural state, prior to all the illusion-producing, consciousness-fettering concepts (prior to everything, actually) which apparently bind us to the wheel of Samsara - the utterly illusory cycle of birth and death.
What Khechari actually does, is: it creates a very important subtle energy link in the body-mind, which allows the apparent chains of constricted consciousness to be greatly loosened, or dissolve, in perception (hence the term and its meaning - the term Khechari is from the Sanskrit, meaning "to fly through inner-space", or "to know one's own nature as the limitless Sky of Consciousness."
I used to think that "flying through inner space" amounted to some sort of yogic amusement park ride.
Not so.
It amounts to a statement concerning the literal, ever-fresh joy of continuous expansion of This That I Am.
Am I waxing metaphysical, here?
Nope.
Waxing actual.
Was Khechari Mudra the key?
Dunno.
Was it a key?
Evidently.
Reality (your true nature) is not what you think it is.
What's it worth to consciously live as and from your true nature?
Everything.
Literally, everything.
As Adyashanti says, "I gave everything for this, and I laughingly wonder: how could it have been so cheap?"
It's all a lot less dramatic, and a lot more real, than anyone could ever dream.
Could what I've said in this post possibly be true?
Find out.
Nothing anyone else knows matters in the slightest.
Jesus said: "The kingdom of heaven is within you."
He's not kidding.
Aum Hridayam*,
Kirtanman
*AUM is Where the Heart Is.
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glagbo
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 02:58:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by Lookatmynavelnow
Would any of you care to make a comment on the snipping benefits?
Could what I've said in this post possibly be true?
Find out.
Kirtanman
Hi All:
So,
Back to snipping I go.
From Kechari 1.25
To Kechari 2.0
Will I take the dive.
So here I go.
To know that truth,
Again
shall I take that knife
with welcome pain.
Thanks for the inspiration.
BRV. |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 03:27:38 AM
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quote:
These are some of the people who have done snipping:
bewell
Scott
david_obsidian
Victor
veritasophia
sparkyfoxMD
meg
Alvin Chan
mrityunjay_singh_1983
bewell
Christi
Richard
Thokar
Kirtanman
Shanti
Would any of you care to make a comment on the snipping benefits?
You really did your homework here, only missing Yogani.
Be serious, I had done some aggressive snipping, but everytime I stopped after a few weeks due to some other oligations and, more importantly, lack of progress despite the pain. My frenum simply gave little way each time despite my great effort and pain (and I'm sure I've tried each and other ways, and have done the snipping as correctly and intelligently I possibly could). My limiting fibers are far underneath the soft tissues, or they might just be everywhere. Anyway, there is no particular "tight" or limiting parts that I could find, and I proved again and again that I do have to do a big snip with blood, across the entire frenum just to get 1 or 2 mm. (because everything is equally limiting! ) It doesn't worth the effort, and it's uncomfortable for me when I have to wait for the heal.
I'll give it another shot later, when I've time. |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Jan 22 2008 03:53:33 AM |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 1:04:20 PM
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kechari mudra
I am an impetuous sort, and I know I am going against the entire stream of this discussion, taking the devils advocate position. Many folks may get upset with the following words. Thought I would be honest in my opinion on this thread of posts and subject. Speaking just for this yogin, myself on this, I cannot see that cutting oneself with a sharp object, can lead to anything good happening. And intuition I believe to be that inner Guru mentioned on these forums.
Furthermore, Isn't it true that human beings are unhappy with what they have achieved and seek to have more of this and more of that, more wealth, in the belief that THEN they will finally be happy? Spiritual materialism is the term that comes to mind.
Cutting the frenulum of the tongue seems like an ignorant way to pursue spiritual culture. Better living through surgery. I won't rule out entirely the possibility of my ever trying this,...someday, out of curiosity .
P.S. As an independent yogin, my practices are self derived, and so, though there is some overlap, there are also differences between what I consider essential and what AYP program recommends. That cuts both ways. For example I could not live without the Gayatri mantra practice.
So I suppose there are always going to be differences of opinion among practicing yogins of various persuasions.
This just proves how grand the yoga tradition is, with many different approaches, that all can lead to Self realization, and frankly no one yogic technique is indispensible for the highest attainment beyond what is even imaginable. John C |
Edited by - x.j. on Jan 29 2008 10:55:11 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 2:55:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by John C
kechari mudra
I am an impetuous sort, and I know I am going against the entire stream of this discussion, taking the devils advocate position. Many folks may get upset with the following words. I don't know. Thought I would be perfectly honest in my little opinion on this thread of posts and subject. Speaking just for this yogin, myself on this, intuitively, I cannot see that hurting oneself, cutting oneself with a sharp object, can lead to anything good happening. It just doesn't seem right to me. And intuition I believe to be that inner Guru mentioned on these forums.
Furthermore, Isn't it true that human beings are always unhappy with what they have accumulated or achieved and seek to have more of this and more of that, more wealth, more of everything in the belief that THEN they will finally be happy? The pastures are always greener over on the other side. Spiritual materialism is the term that comes to mind.
Cutting the frenulum of the tongue seems like a vaguely ignorant way to pursue spiritual culture. Better living through surgery. Sorry to take the opposition view. I won't rule out entirely the possibility of my ever trying this,...someday, out of some kind of curiosity perhaps(?)
P.S. As an independent yogin, my practices are self derived, and so, though there is some overlap, there are also differences between what I consider essential and what Yogani's AYP program recommends. That cuts both ways. For example I could not live without the Gayatri mantra practice. But yet, that is considered too purifying and possibly dangerous within the initiatory instructions to beginners who follow Yogani's program of AYP. But I can only take the opposite opinion, because I experience the Gayatri mantra practice very very deeply. Beyond words. I could live without all other yogic practices except for that, Gayatri. To consider this mantra too purifying seems impossible to me, again, intuitively. No matter what other yoga practices one might be involved with, it just cannot be too much or dangerous in any context imaginable to me, again, intuitively speaking. Krishna, the avatar at one point in human history, said "Of all the mantras, I am Gayatri" And Krishna was the embodiment of Divine Love.
So I suppose there are always going to be differences of opinion among practicing yogins of various persuasions.
This just proves how grand the yoga tradition is, with many different approaches, that all can lead to Self realization, and frankly no one yogic technique is indispensible for the highest attainment beyond what is even imaginable. Apparently.
John C
John,
that's a common reaction to snipping. Don't worry about impetuousness. Impetuousness is welcome. Just be ready for equal-and-opposite impetuousness, and make sure impetuosness doesn't turn into enmity.
As far as I can see, 'intuition' is not fundamentally reliable. I knew someone who claimed an 'intuition' that stretching yourself was 'unnatural' and could come to no good. In medieval times in Europe, many believed bathing was bad for you -- it was obvious to them. If god wanted us to be wet so much, he'd have given us scales, not skin. They might have claimed it was intuitive. You know the story. Much that is called 'intuition' is just the way a person feels about something at a certain time. Much of it is culturally based -- it depends on what they are familiar with.
The problem with the way you are stating your objections, is that they can't really be argued with. If you just say something's bad, and use disparaging descriptions of it like 'ignorant', 'morbid', or disparaging phrases like 'better living through surgery', well, your mind is made up, isn't it? Any number of things can be dismissed by such talk: Yoga itself; religion; modern medicine of any kind (especially surgery); shamanic botanicals, tantra (especially sexual tantra), and so on ad infinitum.
Here's the challenge: can you make substantial objections to it? Not just descriptions, but things that can be argued with?
Try possibly putting your objections into a cost-benefit-risk analysis: What is the cost of snipping? What are the risks? What are the benefits? I believe that the framework of cost-benefit-risk is the most neutral framework and throws away personal and culturally-based prejudices. If a position (on a practice) cannot stand in the framework of cost-risk-benefit analysis, maybe it shouldn't stand. Note that, despite all the prejudices people have against the other things I have mentioned, (Yoga, modern medicine etc.) it's much harder to knock them down in a cost-benefit-risk approach. Which suggests that they have merits -- much more merit than their outright dismissal has.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jan 22 2008 2:59:04 PM |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 4:33:01 PM
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Hi David,
I don't see the word morbid in my post. (I was rewriting my final post above, when you must have been writing your post simultaneously.)
Basically, I just feel that elective surgery is beyond my comprehension and understanding of yoga and of spiritual practice, thats all. For me.
John |
Edited by - x.j. on Jan 22 2008 5:41:24 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 5:17:11 PM
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John, I didn't find anything you said to be offensive. You felt at the time you wrote it that the snipping was, well ignorant. That's all fine by me. I just like to toss that out, to see if it is as ignorant as it seems.
You're free to still think it is ignorant -- you may even still feel it is ignorant, but wish you didn't put it that way. That's fine too. These are just conversations.  No problems at all.
You won't be the first or the last to feel that way about frenum-snipping.
Enjoy AYP!
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 5:44:40 PM
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| sorry |
Edited by - x.j. on Jan 22 2008 5:51:10 PM |
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 6:38:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Try possibly putting your objections into a cost-benefit-risk analysis: What is the cost of snipping? What are the risks? What are the benefits?
Friend, you did snip, didnt you? May I then ask you what your pre-snipping cost-benefit-risk analysis projected, and what was the actual outcome? Would you do it again knowing what you know now? |
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 6:52:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
The practice of Khechari Mudra has contributed to benefits infinitely - and I use that term quite literally - beyond what I was capable of imagining, anticipating and hoping even existed, or was possible ... to orders of magnitude so vast, that words literally do not have the ability to describe.
As I write this post, I literally sit here with tears of joy in my eyes, and a loopy grin on my face,
I guess if this is a popular vote, your answer is ”yes”. How many percent of the snippers agree? Well, as they say, one with God is a majority. On the other hand…
I sense certain maturity from you post. Could it be that your positive experiences of snipping have more to do with that then the actual mudra? Is less yogic yogis predestined to snip in vain?
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 7:37:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by John C
I am ... taking the devils advocate position.
... I cannot see that hurting oneself, cutting oneself with a sharp object, can lead to anything good happening.
...Spiritual materialism is the term that comes to mind.
Cutting the frenulum of the tongue seems like a vaguely ignorant way to pursue spiritual culture. Better living through surgery.
I enjoy exchanging arguments with the Devils advocate, it is a spiritual exercise in some traditions in order to sharpen you understanding and you arguments for your position.
Anyhow, one might argue that having someone operating on your appendix and saving your life do have a significant effect on your spiritual evolution in the flesh (in this incarnation). Also, to use prescribed drugs for dealing with hemophilia (disease by birth that messes with the ability of the blood to clog) may keep you alive until you become enlightened. The road to enlightenment is paved with change – not only spiritual but also mental, emotional and physical change. To attain yoga is to change from the present situation of un-yoga by altering your neuro-physical, mental etc etc vehicles. These are examples of how manipulation of the physical body can have positive effects on the spiritual development.
I guess one can polish the aura in order to get popular with the opposite sex, and that would be what you call “Spiritual materialism”. To polish ones aura to get popular with God could then be called “Spiritual spirituality”?
In stating these arguments I am simply taking the position of the saint-to-be advocate. I might be in error.
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Lookatmynavelnow
52 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 7:41:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by YogaPat
Hey LAMNN
I don't think so. I've snipped mine about as much as you can - so far so good!
P
Care to comment about your experience? Was the snipping beneficial to your spiritual evolution in some way? |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 8:31:29 PM
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| Come on you guys, eveybody who got to stage 2, please come forward and tell us yes or no to the lady's question. |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 8:46:02 PM
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Contrary to popular belief - I have never snipped. Just thought I should clear that up. I got to stage 3 by just trying and trying for a few months.
To get your tongue back into the nasal cavity - the thing that worked best for me was breathing out the mouth really fast kind of saying "ha". If you look at the roof of your mouth in the mirror when you do this, you'll see that the soft part in back comes down...this creates a huge opening which your tongue can easily fit up into.
Next, to reach stage 2, the trick is thrusting forward with the tongue and relaxing your mouth and face. Just keep doing it and trying it, and eventually it'll happen. Stage 3 is basically the same. Just reaching forward and up...when you've hit stage 2, stage 3 is just a bit above.
I discontinued my practice of kechari probably half a year ago or maybe more. Maybe I will get back into it, and if I do I will take up snipping to reach full kechari. It's a very worthwhile practice, even at stage 2. Worth snipping...which isn't as drastic as it seems. "Milking" or pulling the tongue is also worth doing to help you reach further up.
Good luck. |
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Black Rebel Radio
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 10:10:30 PM
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Hey Scott! If you don't mind...why did you stop the practice?
Cheers
Mac |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 11:54:08 PM
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So, I am really getting interested in this survey. So far the results are that Kirtanman says he is at or beyond stage 2 and it is fantastic. Scott was at or beyond stage 2 and says he hasn't continued doing it for a year or so.He doesn't say why he quit doing stage 2 or beyond, but by implication if he doesn't do it still his answer is that it ain't too fantastic obviously or he would still be doing it. Of the total list that Ola had researched out from past posts, she has discovered the names of a total of fifteen people who have done some cutting of the frenulum.
Her questions are the following:
1)Who has reached stage 2 kechari?
2)Secondly, if in stage 2 or beyond, is it fantastic?
So far we have determined that two people have reached stage 2 kechari by their own admission, and the count as to whether it is fantastic is the following:
Yes:1 (Kirtanman)
No:1 (Scott)
Would the other 13 folks please stand up and be counted? Anybody else not on Ola's list care to enter the survey? Please?
This is why we are talking on this forum, you know, to find out about these kind of things. And only you guys can tell the rest of us your answer.
Come on David for instance, are you at stage 2 and is it fantastic or not?
Shanti, I see you are listed. Are you stage 2? Is it fantastic?
John |
Edited by - x.j. on Jan 23 2008 03:14:23 AM |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 02:39:10 AM
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For those who have tried it, what effect does it seem to have? Does the benefit come from cutting into a healed cut, that grows larger over time, or do you gain the most when you are reaching and stretching the tongue back? I'm trying to visualize it, so I imagine that the small cut would stretch open more and heal as a larger nick than before. Does the cut allow the frenulum to give way when the tongue is pulled upward with great force?
The way I experienced kechari, in regards to the frenulum, was a cycle of stretching and healing over time. The force or pull upwards would cause the frenulum a lot of stress, sometimes I thought it was going to rip. But it never did, it would just look like a wiggily string when I looked at it in the mirror after meditation. Soon it would heal and return to a straight line, but with more length, and scar tissue. As I'd repeat this cycle, the tiny lump of scar tissue eventually became the point where the frenulum would tear slightly as the tongue established itself in the space above.
I can't remember it ever bleeding much, but when I tried milking the tongue, after reading a post on AYP about using oil on the tongue to bring about healing, I noticed a small amount of blood and found that the frenulum had torn slightly.
I don't think it has caused me to snore.  |
Edited by - Kyman on Jan 23 2008 03:21:03 AM |
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x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2008 : 03:17:13 AM
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Kyman,
would you mind please answering the survey? Are you stage 2 kechari? Is it wonderul? Would really appreciate a clear yes/no answer here.
thanks,
John |
Edited by - x.j. on Jan 29 2008 10:51:28 PM |
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khechari snip creates snoring?
