|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
lee
2 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 30 2007 : 11:34:32 PM
|
Hi All,
I am brand new to AYP (4 weeks). I discovered Vipassana practice about 9 months ago and have practiced quite diligently. I've been on 3 retreats so far the last being for 2 weeks and taking me nearly to the brink of first enlightenment. However, feeling a block I could not break through, I've started looking at other things to see what gaps I might have in my practice. The most promising set of practices I have encountered have been AYP as presented here. And so many of the symptoms of purification match perfectly to the experiences I have had doing intensive Vipassana practice on retreat. However the AYP informatoin is much clearer, more specific and more detailed than the typical Theravada Buddhist maps.
I know that the repeated advice here is not to mix practices. Just pick a spot and keep digging is what I see again and again, however I do wonder if there could be some synergy between Vipassana and AYP. For me, I find the 2 practices complement each other. Vipassana seems better suited to intensive retreat style practice where as Deep Meditation is better off retreat. After coming off my last retreat, I've been disappointed that my vipassana practice can't seem to come anywhere near the depth of my practice while on retreat. However deep meditation with a mantra seems to get me much closer to retreat level depth without having to spend half a day of continuous practice to ramp up. However, sometimes, I do have more time and would like to do additional comtemplative practice. Since it is not advised to do extra AYP meditation, I've been using breath/vipassana meditation when I want to keep going or do a bit extra.
I find Asanas followed by spinal breathing followed by deep meditation perfect for getting retreat level deep concentration fast. Then moving into bare awareness of breath, I am in an ideal place to begin observing the psycho phsycial phenomina that arise and to note the 3 characteristics of all phenomina (this is standard Theravada Buddhist speak for self-inquiry). Prior to deep meditation, the concentration was sometimes good, sometimes not so good making the vipassana hit or miss. Now with a firm grounding in concentration from an AYP routine, I slide right into Vipassana practice well focused centered and equanimous.
I would be quite interested now to go to a Vipassana retreat, start each day with an AYP routine then continue on with the standard walking/sitting vipassana practice.
Anyone else having successful experiences blending AYP & Vipassana? |
|
|
riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 05:02:37 AM
|
Hi Lee,
I don't do either AYP or Vipassana but am on the siddha path of Kundalini Maha Yoga.Within this framework there are no restrictions but it is important to have guidance and support, just as I believe it is necessary in all spiritual practices.
Saying this I think you need to be aware that retreats are not the same as 'homework'in the sense that on retreat there is more likelihood of direct support if any problems arise.Retreats by their nature will be more intensive and with few distractions and increased practices being the norm.At home these same practices most likely will not have the same 'apparent' effect and may lead you to 'ramp' up your practices.There is a real danger for you to overload and I think a real danger of burning and crashing if you do not self pace.What you are trying to do is repeat the retreat experience on a daily basis which should be allowed to develop naturally. This year has been a difficult year for me, partly due to personal problems and partly due to purification (although both go hand in hand)and it is important to find a balance in life.We still have to live a life away from spiritual practices even it is a spiritual life within our 'modern' world.This can be tricky sometimes so please be careful.
L&L
Dave |
Edited by - riptiz on Dec 31 2007 06:46:55 AM |
 |
|
|
Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 06:27:51 AM
|
Hi Lee, welcome to the forum.
I don't have experience of a Vipassana retreat. I have been practicing AYP for about two years in tandem with Mindfulness Practice and mindfulness retreats in the Thich Nhat Hanh tradition. In this tradition there is some Vipassana principles applied but there is much less meditation and a lot more mindfulness practice, like walking, eating, running, working, talking, listening etc.
I have found the same as you, in that the AYP practices are more effective and more efficient. The practices, lessons and this forum also provide a very clear map on how to go, where the pitfalls are and offers a great support. The support here is way ahead of anything I have encountered on a retreat, it is consistent, clear and available on a daily basis.
It seems to me that nine months Vipassana and four weeks AYP is very little as yet to start ramping this up in the way that you suggest.
Personally I found the mindfulness practice during the day to be a great compliment to the AYP practices. On retreat I leave it up to my intuition as to how much I can handle. Sometimes I feel I can practice AYP together with the retreat format, other times there is too much going on and I leave it out.
It is important to develop a sense of self-pacing internally before you start pushing things.
What Dave says is very true, there is a real danger of you crashing and burning if you overdo it. It can creep up on you with a delayed reaction without you realising it.
So be careful and be kind to yourself.
Cheers
Louis
|
|
|
|
x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 5:00:42 PM
|
Hi Lee,
I have practiced Vipassana meditation since 1999, and so would like to respond to your letter. You mention that you have practiced Vipassana meditation for nine months. I wonder parenthetically if that means the "Jack Kornfield style" of Vipassana/Insight meditation, or the more stern "Goenka style" of Vipassana retreats. I speak for the former variety. You mention that coming off your last retreat you have been "disappointed with Vipassana practice, and can't seem to come anywhere near the depth of practice while on retreat." I would like to respond to that as a Vipassana meditator: That is natural; you are not alone in that, because that is human nature you are commenting on. We all reach a level of quietness on retreat. Back in the fray of everyday life, that special calm cannot continue. But you are learning about your consciousness, how it feels on retreat, and how it feels not on retreat. Isn't that interesting? (Later on, you will see that your meditative calm does carry over into your every day life.)
Incidentally, I attend the same three Vipassana retreats every year, and love to sit retreats with many of the same folks. It's a beautiful rhythm of our life. We return and we sit. We are sangha. A beautiful synergy develops. We do these silent retreats, yet at the end of each one, we feel like these are our closest and dearest friends. Isn't that beautiful? I hope you will continue your retreats.
Second point: You "wonder if there could be some synergy between Vipassana and AYP." Answer: yes there definitely is. No question about it in my experience.
Third point: You have been doing Vipassana for nine months and AYP for four weeks. So you are new to both practices. Question: What's the big rush? Why not do both? I do. There are times when nothing "happens" in meditative practice,but that's true for all of us, and besides, no need to be goal oriented. Spiritual materialism may be defined as the expectation of fireworks and instant enlightenment. Just sit, that is the practice. Nothing needs to happen. And they say that there is always a danger of jumping from one spiritual practice to another. It's like the status quo mind of ours resents and resists any change, and feels threatened by one's spiritual practice, and wants to undermine you with self-doubt, so you will stop doing it, and not try "to put that saddle back on the horse."
But I think it would be a shame for you stop your Vipassana meditation, because it would be premature and to do so would be "to throw the baby out with the bath water." That's just my take on your situation, speaking as a long time Vipassana meditator. This has been my basic meditative paradigm for eight years though I have branched into other paradigms as well. I am speaking here on an AYP forum not from the standpoint of AYP, but nevertheless, I believe AYP is great also. I speak from my own experience regarding Insight meditation/Vipassana. |
Edited by - x.j. on Dec 31 2007 7:18:00 PM |
|
|
|
lee
2 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 8:38:48 PM
|
Thanks all for thoughtful feedback.
Sorry for the wall of text that follows, however pursuit of enlightenment is such a passion in my life and I don’t have many people I can discuss my experiences with in any detail.
John,
Regarding the style, I follow the the Mahasi noting technique (Kornfield, Goldstein ect) over the Goenka. Perhaps my rush for awakening comes from lots of reading of Mahasi Sayadaw and Sayadaw U Pandita who both emphasize continuous relentless effort and reaching stream entry (first awakening) as soon as possible. U Pandita has said on several occasions that the diligent yogi should strive for stream entry as if he had a spear in his side causing continual damage until it is removed. The basic idea is that the fundamental conception of a self is a damaging illusion that hurts and causes suffering every day of your life and it needs to be discarded as quickly as possible. So my approach has been to attain stream entry (I’m guessing Theravada stream entry approximates first awakening in AYP and Arahant approximates full awakening) as quickly as possible even if it get's a little rough or unpleasant at times. Once stream entry has been attained, then I plan to ease up a bit.
I agree that my 9 months Vipassana practice has been short however I have engaged in a number of meditation techniques off and on through high school and college. From the time I understood where the Vipassana path was leading and I began to get a conception of what enlightenment was and that it was possible in a relatively short amount of time with the proper level of focus and the ability to endure some temporary destabilizing side effects, I have been consumed with this drive. My teachers on retreat have commented on the speed of my progress. Sometimes, you just find something that you love and have an affinity for and that’s how I feel about Vipassana and beginning to feel about AYP.
As I look back on my life, I look at pursuit after pursuit striving to fill this inner driving need, but never finding the right thing. Very early in my practice, I knew with 100% certainty that this was the thing I’ve been looking for in all the wrong places. I needed and I needed as soon as possible. It was a moral imperative. This was the thing that I was looking for in all those other endeavors I cannot explain how or why the drive was so strong and so sudden, however the dharma has a hold on me at a very primal level and it is not letting go. And as far as quitting or burning out goes, it is simply inconceivable at this point. I know in the core of my being, this is the most important thing in my life. It’s not a decision or choice, in fact I feel quite powerless on the matter.
As far as unpleasant side effects of fast purification, well I’ve had my fair share on retreat and I don’t mind. I’ve experienced intense head shaking up and down, the feeling that my entire head is being pushed back by a powerful hand, dizziness and nausea, restlessness, muscle spasms, headaches, depression, crying out of deep nameless sadness, intense back pain, the list goes on. When things get particularly unpleasant, I just apply extra focus of mindfulness to whatever sensation and it generally lifts. Actually usually the particularly unpleasant periods are followed by an amazing breakthrough. While I’ve not yet attained stream entry, fundamental suffering has been significantly reduced in all areas of my life. While I experience physical, mental, emotional pain at times, the amount of additional pain I heap onto that is significantly lowered as a result of my practice. So additional unpleasantness and destabilization is a small price to pay in my book to achieve fundamental happiness as quickly as I can.
I’ve also experienced amazing highs of energy, giddiness, what feels like superhuman senses and amazing cathartic releases, that have changed my perspective afterwards. I’ve experienced intense energetic joy and happiness as well as refined sublime bliss and equanimity for days on end. My biggest problem is not the lows, but the highs. When I get caught into the highs my practice gets lax and my concentration starts to fade as I bathe in the pleasantness. In my last retreat, I worked through the arising & passing away phase, the dark night and got fairly deep into equanimity (these terms relate to the Theravada Buddhist Maps of Stages of awakening, though dark night is St John of the Cross terminology). However I got stuck in arising & passing away for a while powered through the phases of the dark night then got stuck equanimity for the remainder of the retreat. My concentration started to slip and my practice got too lazy in the face of so much sublime pleasure and joy. Overall my practice suffers far more from pleasantness than it does form pain. I also get seduced by all the great ideas and perspective about my lifes problems and issues at the time and get sucked into content rather than the process of insight meditation.
With Vipassana alone, I do recognize that the experiences you have on retreat simply can’t compare to daily practice. However, after my latest retreat, I feel like I cannot make progress in daily practice without at least 2-4 hours of practice a day. I spend the first 30-40 minutes just getting a small amount of concentration before the mindfulness is strong enough to do any quality observation of phenomena. Overall, I feel daily practice is just an attempt to slowdown the backsliding and atrophy of my spiritual development .In this regard, AYP is a godsend. Ten Minutes of Asanas, 10 minutes of spinal breathing and 20 minutes of mantra meditation give me a near retreat level concentration as well as a smoother energy flow that I can then turn towards mindfulness and observation of the Impermanence, No Self and un-satisfactoriness (3 characteristics). At this point I have no desire to extend the AYP sessions because it just doesn’t feel right. You simply can’t do mantra meditation for as long as breath meditation. My body tells me pretty quick enough is enough. So I have no intention of extending AYP techniques beyond any of the recommended self pacing times. However, with the extra time and Bhakti I have for awakening, I focus it towards Vipassana. If I am short on time, I just stick with AYP as it seems a better use of limited time.
I’m really curious now how this all will affect my next retreat. Currently I’ scheduled for a month long retreat at IMS next May. My current plan is to utilize standard AYP morning and evening routine and to do standard Mahasi style sitting and walking practice the rest of the time I am there. As you mentioned John, I love the atmosphere routine and energy of Insight meditation retreats, but I also love how efficient the AYP techniques are but it is quite apparent that they can’t be applied with the same consistency of Vipassana. Even with my limited experience, my body tells me enough is enough with AYP very quickly.
I will however be prepared in case, the purification goes into overdrive and I sense real danger. Fortunately I’ll be around lots of experienced Vipassana teachers (including Jack Kornfield) who have plenty of experience with yogi’s going to far too fast. As for daily practice until then, well even with the concentrated AYP techniques, I’m still not near the speed of purification I was experiencing on my last retreat so I should be ok without close supervision. I will stay vigilant though.
|
|
|
|
NatanEpsilon
Fyro Macedonia
21 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2010 : 4:19:51 PM
|
Hi Lee,
I tried to do Vipassana meditation for a 10 minutes before saying the I Am mantra (just for experimentation) and I found that I did the Deep Meditation with more concentration and focus on the Mantra. The end product was that I felt a very nice calmness after the meditation. This is only experimentation and I speak only of one day doing it. So, I will look further and investigate in this direction to see if its really better doing it in this way.
With Love,
Natan |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
New to AYP & More on AYP & Vipassana
