|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
x.j.
304 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 30 2007 : 9:28:52 PM
|
I know AYP recommends no changes in diet necessary. And beware too much purification, too soon! I would like to tell how my diet changed. I began my path to meditation, after a death of a family member, by attending a three day Vipassana (Buddhist)meditation retreat-45 minute sittings-etc for 3 days.I faced grief, tears flowed. I learned grief was a part of me! Then I started with physical symptoms-I had a racing of the heart and other wierd symptoms moving up from the pelvis to the chest-and was told by the meditation teacher that what I described to him was "only kundalini". I said "What's that?" He said "don't worry, it will go away if you ignore it."
After a couple of these meditation retreats,I discovered that I could no longer tolerate eating meat! I observed intensification of grief whenever I tried to eat meat or fish of any kind. So I have avoided these foods for 6 or 7 years now. I don't know why this is true; it's just an experiential fact. (Parenthetically, I refer readers to a wonderful book-Omnivore's Dilemma that describes how the author went to the feedlots and slaughter house, and documents first hand, the unbelievable suffering of animals in our food industry in the U.S.A. The scale of this suffering of animals is unparalleled in all of history.)
I don't know why its so upsetting. Perhaps the flesh of animals contains some tormented traces of something, or perhaps this is the mystery of cause and effect. And as our compassion for all beings and feelings of kindness to animals as well, grows into our waking consciousness through our yoga, then diet may need refining as well. May all beings be free from suffering. |
Edited by - x.j. on Dec 03 2007 8:38:30 PM |
|
|
Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2007 : 11:11:35 PM
|
My experience was the same. I've always loved animals, so eating meat always felt very strange to me. I met a friend who worked in the country for PETA and she was a great influence on me. It timed right in my practices and I made the choice over a year ago without going back once. Occasionally, I might recall liking a certain dish, but then I realize that I don't like the taste of anything enough for an animal to die for it (especially in a factory farm).
There is a definite sense of a release from something that had always bothered me, which is probably the karmic debt you mentioned. So strong in fact that I can confidently say I am life long convert.
In my case, a point came in my path where going vegetarian was the next big step, and big boon. |
Edited by - Kyman on Nov 30 2007 11:53:03 PM |
 |
|
|
emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2007 : 08:13:39 AM
|
Hm... I have also gone the same way. It became impossible to eat meat. I have also naturally quit wheat flour, more and more dairy products and so on. But I have also always had in my mind that "a heavy diet is good for self-pacing" and a respect for the intelligence of the body.
The other day my body was craving a pizza with sausage. I just HAD to eat that, so I ordered one, with fat cheese, wheat flour and the whole kit! And I was surprised how well I felt after that! My stomach thanked me, my energy level raised, my motivation and acitivity increased... I haven't felt so good in a long time. I definitely needed it. But I don't have any ideas of starting to eat meat again. I think it is more like... I don't forbid myself to eat anything. I don't want to have a principle I must follow.
My approach now is to listen, listen and listen very carefully to what signals I get from my body. I trust it will lead me to what it needs.
But I do agree with you... there's something about that "kindness to all beings" that goes very deep. |
|
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2007 : 09:54:01 AM
|
Here's another take on the meat issue. I've a dark confession to make. After 23 years of vegetarianism, I'm now a carnivore.  I can't say for sure why I returned to the dark side, but I attribute it to a huge life change in the past year, loads of stress, and the need for more protein in my diet. A gal can eat just so many beans. It started as a harmless, organic chicken breast from Whole Foods, and 9 months later I'll eat just about anything with legs. It's somewhat humbling, since I was such a devout vegetarian, and in retrospect, a bit egotistical about it; as if it somehow made me a wee bit better than a carnivore.
The reason that I originally stopped eating meat was because it made me really sick the way animals are so inhumanely treated - as no more than objects for our consumption. I still feel this way. It grieves me. I could go on & on. But what I found is that I no longer had sufficient conviction to continue in my personal protest against it, and I saw that my not eating meat had made not a whit of difference for 23 years.
As for the ramifications to my body & meditation: I'm not in a flowering moment in my meditation, but until recently it was going well. To the extent that any meditation can be labeled 'good' or 'bad', that is. It felt very rich, and my heart chakra is as wide as it's ever been, sometimes to the point of being slightly painful. So John, I have to respectfully disagree with you that the eating of meat leads to a constriction of the heart, at least as a general rule. As far as my body goes, I feel very strong & healthy. I have more energy than people half my age (I'm 46), and in general I feel healthier than I did over the past few years. I've read that some women need to eat more meat as they age. I definitely crave it.
As far as guilt - I do feel guilty about eating meat, but it's not crippling guilt. I feel far more guilty when I see a young mother slap her kids on the subway - shouldn't I be doing something about that? Or pass a guy on the sidewalk who's out of his mind & filthy & begging for change. What's my quarter going to do for him? Where, when do we stop feeling guilty? When do we embrace what IS? But that's another subject...
Last paragraph, I promise. I still feel pretty rotten about the killing of animals. I still embrace vegetarianism. If I needed a justification for eating meat, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with one. I simply haven't been able to summon the wherewithal to stop eating it. My eyes are starting to open up to the unity in everything; how everything is amazingly connected, and although I'd never say that eating meat was the cause of it, it certainly hasn't prevented it. |
|
|
|
Black Rebel Radio
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2007 : 1:00:47 PM
|
There is something that has always bothered me about the reasoning for not eating meat. I don't see why the same rational (living beings)isn't applied to plants. They are living beings just like the cows and chickens. What about fish. OMG, where does it all stop!!! Heheh. Maybe we are all supposed to evolve to photosynthesis!?!? I am not speaking against either path, just wondering what y'alls thoughts are on this.
Mac |
|
|
|
Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2007 : 2:19:20 PM
|
Hey Meg,
My father became a vegetarian after getting into buddhism, but years later he began eating meat also. He keeps telling me, 'the mountains are mountains again'.
Black,
It might just relate to whatever the person is working on. The body might need to purify itself or break down a strong blockage. Becoming a vegetarian does cause changes in our mind and body, this might help us connect more deeply within and establish ourselves at a level where we won't incur any dept, guilt, or karma when eating meat later on in life.
And I don't contemplate karma that much, or past lives, although I am open to them and so see them as an interesting backdrop to the idea of vegetarianism. In my case, I didn't personally need to eat meat to survive or enjoy its taste enough that I would will the death of another animal.
|
Edited by - Kyman on Dec 01 2007 2:23:54 PM |
|
|
|
anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2007 : 11:52:25 PM
|
| I think vegetarianism has its spiritual advantages beyond karmic ideas and the like. I see veg'ism as a personal decision to take a progressive step for humanity. Human beings cannot possibly continue to eat meat as we do and have the earth continue to sustain us so I feel by releasing oneself from that antiquated habit a favor is done for animals and humans alike. The fact is that technological and scientific society, as we are undeniably are and are becoming, does not require meat to sustain us so we gotta give it up one day! It is also a misconception that human beings and meat are so easily coupled because the human body and digestive system doesn't seem to support meat consumption and ancient man was not even close to the savvy hunter we imagine him to be. |
|
|
|
emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2007 : 03:08:00 AM
|
| I think someone said something like "well... as long as we are in existence, we continue to create karma, all the time" (might have been Yogani here in forum, or something I read). We can't stop the karmic wheel, but we can see it for what it is - a constant flow of causes and consequences. With that follows a tendency not to judge. There's no "good or bad" karma. It's just karma. |
|
|
|
sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2007 : 10:10:02 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by meg
As far as guilt - I do feel guilty about eating meat, but it's not crippling guilt. I feel far more guilty when I see a young mother slap her kids on the subway - shouldn't I be doing something about that? Or pass a guy on the sidewalk who's out of his mind & filthy & begging for change. What's my quarter going to do for him? Where, when do we stop feeling guilty? When do we embrace what IS? But that's another subject...
Hi Meg,
Agreed.
I read this thread a day or two ago, and wanted to say something, and then didn't. Now that I read what you have written, I better.
I am a vegetarian, and have felt strongly about animals all my life. But I do not subscribe at all to the correlation between heart chakra expansion and vegetarianism. One of the most gentle and compassionate humans I have ever met was a non-vegetarian and he used to even sacrificed a milch animal on Bakra-eid himself. But he was still the most kind person I've known. And some of the most cruel behaviour I have encountered has come from staunch vegetarians.
A number of yogis and saints were non-vegetarians. And if this were a criteria on the spiritual path, eskimos can forget about it. Perhaps it is the attachment to the act, presence of guilt, or any other strong emotion that colours it. Indifference, cruelty, anger, lack of gratitude or fear wrt the animal you eat may be all that creates karma. And the same would be true for us plant eaters too. If we are abusing vegetation, hybridising seeds, genetically altering them, toxifying their habitat with chemicals, we would be a heartless lot, and not the man who looks after his animal kindly, feeds it well, and makes sure that its end is swift and as painless as possible.
Today most of us eat food, whether vegetarian or non-vegetarian, from sources that treat them commercially, cruelly and with no sensitivity whatsoever. To that extent we are all in the same boat.
And as Yogani keeps pointing out, no one aspect is going to take us anywhere; and vegetarianism is not, IMO, synonymous with ahimsa (non-violence), one of the five yamas. There are no magic bullets. All the eight limbs must move in coordination for the creature of yoga to take steps forward.
My take is, if your meat is calling you, eat it without garnishing it with guilt. It will be healthier for you!  |
Edited by - sadhak on Dec 02 2007 9:25:57 PM |
|
|
|
LittleTurtle
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2007 : 3:35:47 PM
|
| Very well said , Sadhak. I'm in agreement with you. If we were sufficiently 'evolved' we could here a tomato scream as we bit into it. At any rate we seldom do ourselves a service with guilt. Guilt is a distroyer. |
|
|
|
thomas
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2007 : 4:16:52 PM
|
Very well said sadhak ... very well said
Thomas |
|
|
|
Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2007 : 4:19:08 PM
|
As a young "whipper snapper" in my early twenties I was sailing the high seas in the Merchant Navy.
We had Indian crews for a couple of years, and one day the chap who served my food in the dining room, started a strange practice.
The way it worked was, we would get an empty plate and the various foods would be taken along and we would choose from an assortment.
This chap would ask what I wanted and instead of putting it on my plate in front of me he removed my plate and would put the food on it, he would then place his hand over the food for maybe ten seconds and ask what else I wanted. He continued doing this untill the plate was full. We had a good relationship and for some reason I knew in some oblique way what he was doing.
We would nod to each other and smile, in recognition of something.
Anyway, after a day or so of this I began to experience altered states during my meals. I would go into a beautiful reverie. I became ultra aware of what I was eating.
When eating lettuce it was like I was inside the lettuce plant and I couldn't but feel incredibly grateful to the plant.
When I eat fish I would be either swiming around with the fish or looking into its great eyes thanking it for offering its body for my consumption.
The same for meat, I would see the cow or the pig and be so grateful for their precious flesh.
It was such an honour to be able to eat anything from the earth, it seemes like, instead of meat or any food closing the heart, it is the gratitude that we might bestow on such a priveledge, that is more likely to open it.
I think there are many good reasons for becoming a vegitarian, but I don't think it need be related to opening of the heart. If a person is drawn to a lighter diet, this will also lighten the energy and this may be what the person needs at that time. Likewise the opposite can be true.
To get hung up on rules for this and rules for that is going to end up in another trap. Someday it might be right for the person to eat meat for whatever reason and they will be stuck in a rule, and then get stuck in their evolution.
The most pressing reason to go vegitarian, at the moment, can be summed up, in my view, in the following articles on Global Warming.
http://www.goveg.com/environment-globalwarming.asp
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy...b_39014.html
So Meg, with 23 years as a vegitarian you have built up approximately 32 tons of carbon credits to your name, bravo
|
Edited by - Sparkle on Dec 02 2007 4:23:55 PM |
|
|
|
LittleTurtle
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2007 : 5:46:40 PM
|
| Sparkle, thanks so much for sharing that post. What a cool story. It reminds me of how Joseph Campbell recalled the history of the American plains Indians and their custom of ritual dance and story telling that basically was a thanksgiving of sorts to the spirits of animals killed for food. |
|
|
|
x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2007 : 01:15:00 AM
|
I enjoy all the points well stated by folks, on this subject. I know the Buddha ate meat, in fact died of spoiled pork! Jesus ate meat. So what though? I don't know what happened to me experientially, but for some reason, my grief intensified with meat and fish. Maybe because I am grief centered? Or are all humans grief centered?
It makes me wonder though, about possibly rationalizing and defending a behavior that has become habitual for us culturally since childhood,is not nutritional necessary, is unecological, contaminating us with pesticide and antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria that have developed drug resistance due to the antibiotics used in the industry, and based on petrochemical fertilizers used to grow the corn to feed to the animals. Omnivore's Dilemma(the book) states that it takes something like 5 barrels of crude oil from Saudi Arabia to grow 50 bushels of corn to feed one beef to maturity, and that would not be possible without the petrochemical fertilizer and petrochemical insecticides used to grow the corn.
Can we really afford not to look at how inefficient it is energy wise to grow cattle and chickens on vast amounts of corn when people could be fed worldwide with that vegetable resource instead? I mean eventually?...Its food for thought, pardon the pun.Sorry to be a spoil sport. I still think the above book is worth reading for all serious people of AYP persuasion, who truly care about what condition our condition is in. |
Edited by - x.j. on Dec 03 2007 02:30:08 AM |
|
|
|
Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2007 : 10:56:24 AM
|
Sparkle, I loved your story (and I hope the Indian guy is doing well out there!). And I'm an omnivore. But I always have a sticky issue with the practice of being grateful to the animal that offered its flesh for my dinner: I can't get out of my mind the fact that if some creature were to eat me, I would not appreciate its gratefulness even in the slightest!  |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Dec 03 2007 10:57:18 AM |
|
|
|
Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2007 : 11:25:05 AM
|
| Ah Jim, you're too attached to that body of yours |
|
|
|
Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2007 : 12:07:32 PM
|
I've never had any strong issue with eating meat, just the context in which it is done. The process and consciousness behind it. Organic meat is often used from animals that are allowed to free range, and this ability to live openly without tremendous stress and suffering, to be able to have babies and raise them in their unique family units, is supposed to show up in the quality of meat. Given our own degree of self awareness here, we can imagine for ourselves the difference in quality of life. The difference between a fairly normal and peaceful life and a life long state of torture until the animal is ripe for the butchering process.
If it is possible to feel the subtle layers more over time, it might be possible to pick up on the vibration the animal was predominantly in its entire life before being butchered. Everything is connected, everything is information, the sharpened mind can feel much.
Here is a very useful video called, Meet Your Meat, very brief but heart opening and cathartic. I think it is a strong argument to switch from factory farmed meat, or any meat used by most industries, and begin to support organic free range farms . And, as mentioned above, eating free range meat (if you don't go Veg) circumvents some of the most destructive systems on the planet. You could spend months researching all of the ways not supporting factory farms can add energy to the healing momentum on this planet.
Factory farms, in my opinion, are hell on earth. Devoid of any compassionate presence, a difficult place to reconcile in my mind, personally. When you eat meat in our day and age, I don't think it is just a choice to eat meat. It is also a choice to support the process and people who bring you your meat, making it a collaboration. With mass marketing, mass production, and mass consumerism, eating meat is more than simply eating meat. Because of this, buying organic or free range meat can have a revolutionary and healing effect on many aspects of our civilization.
Don't worry, soon we'll have cloned meat to eat. If you haven't seen the video before, I suggest you watch it at least once for sake of the deepening of consciousness and compassion on planet earth. http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...926833909134
|
Edited by - Kyman on Dec 03 2007 12:38:46 PM |
|
|
|
yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2007 : 7:33:38 PM
|
From Raja Yoga By Yesudian and Haich:
"Our food should be simple and consist mainly of fruit, green vegetables and milk products. As far as possible we whould avoid meat. Meat eating is not necessarily an obstacle to our progress, but it is a fact that we can overcome our passions more easily when we refrain from eating animal flesh. Sooner or later, those who practise Yoga lose the desire for meat and eat it only under compulsion. But here too, fanaticism is injurious. It always brings separation instead of unity.
Food is only a means to an end, not an end in itself. We have known great Yogis who have eaten meat when compelled by special circumstances to do so. And on the other hand we have encountered some very undeveloped and unpurified souls among vegetarians. Diet is often determined to a considerable extent by climate and other factors beyond our direct control. The ability to reach and enjoy the state of blessed happiness is not dependent on climate. If it were dependent on a meatless dietary, the great spiritual experience would be very easy to attain. In every field of life we must take care not to jump to conclusions hastily: not to let our prejudices cause us to place too much emphasis on non-essentials; not to forget the essence of the matter--the "inner spirit' in which we must perform whatever duties we are undertaking."
Best, yb.
|
|
|
|
x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2007 : 7:05:05 PM
|
| After reading the AYP books and thinking it over, I have to agree that like most folks express on this thread, it is all very individual what one chooses to eat in their diet. And that diet will change as a by product of other changes occuring in our energetic system as a result of meditative practice. So my perception about my dietary needs is specific to me and no one else. Incidentally, the experts say that one thing vegetarians require is a B12 suppliment. |
|
|
|
anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2007 : 4:48:17 PM
|
| There is controversey over that statement. There is so much disagreement over which vitamins and nutrients are "needed" in supplement form - especially things like vitamins and especially iron...even protein! How much is enough can vary so much from doctor to doctor it is really a whirlpool of opinions. There is argument that B12 may be created in the body naturally. Also, they say that B12 can last sufficiently in the body for up to 30 years. |
|
|
|
Hannah
38 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2007 : 03:51:55 AM
|
I recently had a dream that I was in a fish market. The propietor was a very distinguished looking, well dressed fish, standing on his tail. They had a daily special of live humans for sale. All this occured as a teacher of mine was trying to convince me to eat meat. Ewee!  |
|
|
|
anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2007 : 12:42:43 PM
|
| I have occasional meat dreams too! I had one not that long ago that I was eating some some of chicken parm. dish chopped up like your mom would do when you are very young and I accidently ate the chicken. I wonder what that means? I'm sure some omnis out there would say it is the body "crying out" for meat, meat, meat!!!!!! |
|
|
|
Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2007 : 9:36:23 PM
|
I fully agree, that vegetarianism should be an individuals choice. Making someone become vegetarian without their volition is a form of rape, nobody should be forced to do anything against their will. I personally don't have a problem with eating meat. I do however have a problem with factory farming. Just because you are going to eat the animal does not mean that the animal should be treated in such an inhuman fashion. Also the damage to the environment done by factory farming is horrendous. The vast majority of damage to our co2 levels and ozone layer have to do with the high amounts of methane gas produced via the sewage produced by livestock. Also deforestation due to raising livestock is also a problem that can be alleviated with a vegetarian diet.
I personally am a vegetarian, and I do so as a form of sadhana. I perform vegetarianism as a form of karma yoga. We all have lifetimes of karma to burn off, and I think that vegetarianism is a way to help cleanse that karma by utilizing a form of diet that is mutual (good for you and others). Vegetarianism is also great for health by reducing the chances of cancer, high cholesterol, diabetes, and heart disease.
I think that many things can be a part of karma yoga. I recycle as a form of karma yoga, and refrain from littering under any circumstances.
I also eat a diet that is about 70% or more organic. This is also a form of karma yoga, commercial agriculture harms the planet, our mother by putting poisons in the form of herbicides and insecticides into her soils. Not to mention avoiding those toxins in your body also improves your health.
I also think that choosing public transportation, walk, ride a bike, or drive a hybrid vehicle is a form of karma yoga. You sacrifice having a flashy SUV or sports car to help alleviate the environmental damage to the atmosphere produced by high emission vehicles. This also has benefits for you because you can get some exercise or you save money at the pump by getting more mpg.
Meditation is also a form of karma yoga. Through research with the maharishi effect, they figured out that meditation benefits the collective unconscious by producing higher coherence in the universal mind, reducing crime. It also has tremendous benefits for us because it accelerates our spiritual progress.
I think any action that you do that is for the mutual symbiotic benefit of others and yourself is a form of bhakti/karma yoga. By serving the living god of animals, the earth, and people we accelerate our spiritual unfoldment.
|
|
|
|
x.j.
304 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2008 : 01:43:04 AM
|
| I was wondering if others noticed a newspaper article that appeared yesterday, citing the statistic that global warming due to methane(from animal agriculture to feed humans meat) accounts for something like 18% of all emissions causing global warming as compared with something like 12% for vehicle emissions? As China and also India grow more fond of eating beef, those huge human populations will likewise create a huge jump in methane production. All of which is the karmic price of eating meat! (I need to find that article wherever I left in under some papers somewhere, and get exact about these details.) Final comment on karmic price to human beings and the karmic price tag measured in a rise in global ambient temperatures to all species with whom we share the biosphere.(Humans make atrociously bad neighbors with whom to share the earth's crust.) |
Edited by - x.j. on Jan 01 2008 03:55:42 AM |
|
|
|
hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2008 : 08:59:30 AM
|
Very interesting thread. I have heard it said that honey is one of the most karmically depleting foods, as bees work very hard to make it - then we take what is not given, and eat it!
I believe that plants are sentient beings, but I cannot back this up with evidence.
I tend to just eat anything that is available. But, I greatly respect those of you who refrain from certain foods for ethical reasons. |
|
|
|
Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
The karmic price of meat
