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Christi

United Kingdom
3820 Posts

Posted - Apr 23 2008 :  1:29:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Balance

quote:
I wonder just for fun if angels are the paintbrush of Consciousness.

I've heard it said they are in the architecture.


I am sure they are in the architecture. In fact they may even be the architecture. You remember that first (and possibly most famouse) line in the bible, the first line: “and in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God”. The Hebrew word translated as God here is Elohim. The Hebrew for God is Yahwe. Elohim means “angels”. It should read “In the beginning was the word and the word... was the angels”.

The most interesting thing for me at the moment is not the question of whether we should believe in angels, but whether angels believe in us. I have some evidence to believe that they don’t, and I also have some reasons to believe they may be right. Our existence is a great deal more insubstantial than theirs.

Christi
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Christi

United Kingdom
3820 Posts

Posted - Apr 23 2008 :  1:32:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Weaver,

Great post, with lots of valuable insights.

quote:
In this example, if Christi, or someone with the power of healing, would come, put his hand on this person, and make him healed of his outer illness, but the inner condition remained, this would not be a completely satisfactory solution. The illness may come back again later if the real cause is not dealt with. And, the person could be deprived of learning that there is something he needs to address in his consciousness.


I don’t think it is quite that simple, and I’ll tell you why.

I’ve been engaged in spiritual practices for some time now (probably about 22 years). During that time I have done a lot of things the “hard way”. By that I mean I have spent thousands of hours sitting on cushions in various states of meditation, and performed other spiritual practices. But I have also had a great deal of help along the way in various forms. Spiritual masters have written books which I have read, I have lived in temples which have a high spiritual vibration, people have placed their hands on me, prayed for me, whispered in my ear, and one man looked into my eyes. All of these were forms of shaktipat (direct energy transmission) of one form or another. Some were gentle, and others more intense. I could also say that I have watched sunsets, slept under the stars and swam in the ocean. Without all the help that I have received, I think I would probably have given up a long time ago (I’m not really that good at this spiritual stuff). I will also say that receiving spiritual healing (or shaktipat, or sleeping under the stars,) is not a way of taking away symptoms without dealing with the underlying causes. It is a spiritual experience, like deep meditation, or prayer (samyama). It has a beneficial effect on the whole system just as meditation and prayer do, and a substantial effect on consciousness. For this reason when I give healing I don’t worry about removing symptoms without treating the underlying cause. The symptom and the cause are one, and I don’t treat either. All I do is to help raise the energy vibration in a person’s body and bring their mind to stillness using radiance, so that they can heal their own body faster. Or, if they are not yet ready to heal, then they will be better able to see that, and to be at peace with it.

I think the reason that Jesus did not heal everybody was simply that most people were not yet ready to be healed. It would not have made any difference if Jesus had placed his hands on them or not, nothing would have happened on a real level. Those that were ready did not even need him to lay his hands on them. They drew his love through him simply through the power of their love and their spiritual desire for awakening.

Christi
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Katrine

Norway
1813 Posts

Posted - Apr 23 2008 :  3:26:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit Katrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi

quote:
Those that were ready did not even need him to lay his hands on them. They drew his love through him simply through the power of their love and their spiritual desire for awakening.



Yes.
You know......I was pondering the initial post in this thread......I never thought of literally "living on light".....it is an amazing experiment.....I wouldn't know how to do it.

But I keep coming back to the fact that no matter what I "take in"......it is after all what "comes out" of me that is the most crucial. And although I lived on a strict macrobiotic diet for years, I now eat fish a couple of times a week and sometimes chicken too (in addition to fruits, vegetables, sprouts that I harvest in my own kitchen, seeds, seeweeds, beans and grains). And once in a while I'll have coffee too. And chocolate. And cake. Honey. You name it!

Everything I eat is almost immediately "digested".....or "prosessed" ....and comes up as ecstacyenergy....and after reaching the head....there is a release of fragrance/taste "tiny drops" (I don't know what else to call it...since it is more like vapor than drops) down from the nazal tract and then..... the sinking into the chest "glow". This usually takes place just a few minutes after the meal is finished.

The only thing I can't eat is "fake sugar".....you know...any kind of chemical sweetener. Those are pure poison.....last time i was exposed to it I immediately felt immense nausea and the "poison" was felt all through the body. Yack!

I never eat large meals. I could before; but not now. The feeling of being just perfectly filled is very clear, so I honor it.

Anyway.....if I had a lighter diet right now......it would be too hard on the body......the surge being what it is (it sometimes feels as if i am about to literally take off......not like in levitation...more like in ...bungee jumping (the return) )

Saturday I went with a friend to a flee market in Oslo. I bought a lovely blue ceramic fruit...dish.....and wandering into the book department of the market....I stumbled upon this lovely poster. For just 30 Norwegian kroner I got the poster from the Verdis Requiem done in Stockholm and Oslo back in 1992 with the World Festival Choir and Pavarotti and others. I don't know who the painter is...

Anyway......the poster had this lovely motive.....it is a renaissance painting showing the dead Jesus .....the thorn "crown" lying on his left on the floor....his wounds visible but still....Jesus sits on something black that rests on a white cloth on the floor.....sitting in an incredibly still posture.....legs crossed at the feet.....leaning his back against - and being held by - the Mother (Virgin Mary). His head slightly tilted....eyes closed.... and resting against the white linen clothing she wears within the black hood/cloack (she looks a bit like a nun). His right hand is completely limp...resting on its back beside the body.......but his left hand is held by the angle standing on his right side (Mary is sort of behind both). The angle wears a red/pink "dress" with a golden rim.....she/he has reddish curly hear...and the left hand of the angle is beckoning Jesus to come with him/her....into the stronger light. And the whole right and front side of the picture is permeated with the Shine....this translucent light.....

The thing is....the angle is coming from the light.....but it is Jesus that embodies it! Although it is clear that he is dead......the painter managed to paint him alive - he emits - in his complete let go. It is so beautiful.....it now hangs in my livingroom. I know it is just a picture....it is a symbol.....an ishta......but I don't care what we call it, it makes a difference, that's all . It is not without.....but it strengthens the connection to that which is within.

Many, many years ago - when I first had to acknowledge the chasm in me - I was sitting at a kitchen table alone......and out of nowhere I started talking to the Jesus I never "believed in" and certainly never expected would hear me. Still.....out of a very deep despair....an inner cry.....I prayed. It was the very first sincere prayer I ever prayed......and I still remember it as a significant moment. Everything began just then. It was a pivotal moment.

And now he finally moved in....... Jesus....and now also the mother and the angle

I just had to tell you

You emit so much light already, Christi and everybody else here.
Don't you find that the more people it touches, the more you emit?
And that this is a natural way to increase your radiance? This way the light actually lives "on you"......

You are its food, yes ?


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Balance

USA
967 Posts

Posted - Apr 23 2008 :  4:01:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit Balance's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Balance

quote:
I wonder just for fun if angels are the paintbrush of Consciousness.

I've heard it said they are in the architecture.


I am sure they are in the architecture. In fact they may even be the architecture. You remember that first (and possibly most famouse) line in the bible, the first line: “and in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God”. The Hebrew word translated as God here is Elohim. The Hebrew for God is Yahwe. Elohim means “angels”. It should read “In the beginning was the word and the word... was the angels”.

The most interesting thing for me at the moment is not the question of whether we should believe in angels, but whether angels believe in us. I have some evidence to believe that they don’t, and I also have some reasons to believe they may be right. Our existence is a great deal more insubstantial than theirs.

Christi




Hi Christi

Belief seems to be a human phenomenon. I really wouldn't know, it just seems that way. But would angels, or anything at all "be" if we didn't be-lieve? Perhaps the angels are our own self looking at us and supporting our belief. If the belief drops away, what remains? Just incredibleness? I wouldn't know, but I can feel something breath-taking begin to well up within. Just pondering the belief of it all.

Alan
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weaver

832 Posts

Posted - Apr 23 2008 :  11:37:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
I don’t think it is quite that simple, and I’ll tell you why.

Hi Christi,

Yes, this is fully understood. That's why I also wrote:

"This example is just one possible scenario. There can of course be situations when a healer can work with a patient at all levels, and help them overcome their inner conditions of consciousness as well as easing or curing the outer symptoms. But this would take some spiritual attainment on the part of the healer."

Thank you for clarifying this further, and sharing your own experience!
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 24 2008 :  11:54:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi David,

quote:
Randi's value in the process stems largely from his knowledge of conjuring and fraud. It's definitely true that scientists should be involved, but you also need someone who knows conjuring. Scientists tend to be naive in that area. They are a way too trusting -- they don't allow very much for the possibility of deception -- and they don't know how it is done, and will rule it out prematurely because they don't know the 'tricks' of the deception trade.


Yesterday I came across this site by the Campaign for Philosophical Freedom, which gives a fair amount of detail into exactly what Randi is doing and the bogus ways he is going about it. It very clearly and efectively debunks him as a fraud in the arena of investigating supernatural powers:

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/bac...icholls.html

One interesting thing to note is that anyone agreeing to be investigated by Randi or his team has to agree on an experiment to be carried out. Randi and his team are involved in designing the experiment and it cannot be carried out without their agreeing to the parameters of the experement first. Then the person demonstrating the supernatural powers has to sign a legal agreement stating that when a conclusion is reached, they will publicly confess that they possess no supernatural powers.

This is the most unscientific thing I have ever heard and it is more akin to medieval witch-hunting than to modern day science. It doesn’t even say, “If the results turn out to be negative then...” Which just shows the incredible degree of bias built into his system.

If I were to engage in scientific experiments to prove publicly that I possess supernatural abilities, I would devise a number of experiments. If the first one did not give positive results then I would look at the parameters involved, and look at areas where other influences might be affecting the results. Then I would re-devise the experiments, making them progressively more and more accurate, eliminating external influences. This is how all scientists work in the investigation of a hypothesis, and it is the way any serious investigator should work. The legal clause in Randi’s method would obviously exclude someone like me from demonstrating supernatural powers under the conditions laid down by him. It would also exclude any serious psychic in their right mind from engaging with him. The clause effectively means that only people who do not actually possess supernatural powers, but want a quick stab at a million dollars would engage with him at all. Some genuine psychics may not read the small print first, and end up in the process by mistake. Most would probably pull out when they realise what is involved.

So I repeat the warning I gave above: If anyone actually possesses or is in the process of developing supernatural powers, do not engage with James Randall at all, whatever happens. From what I learned from this website, I would extend that warning to say that if you are going to be involved in any TV or radio broadcast demonstrating your abilities, get a letter from the broadcasting company first, stating clearly that James Randall Zwinge will not be involved in the show in any way.

Christi




I think the website you quote is misrepresenting the situation. It reads like this:

finally, the psychic must 'agree upon what will constitute a conclusion that he/she does not possess the claimed ability or powers. This will be a major consideration in accepting or rejecting claimants.' Does this mean that the performer must agree to being declared fraudulent even if he/she succeeds in the tests? If not, why use such ambiguous wording in a legal document?

What I see is "finally, the psychic must 'agree upon what will constitute a conclusion that he/she does not possess the claimed ability or powers'". It doesn't mean that you'll be declared fraudulent if you succeed -- it means that you agree to a criterion for failure. I didn't see anything that says that you have to declare failure.

There are scientific reasons why, in order to be valid, parameters of experiments must be decided in advance. The point that you may need to re-adjust the conditions of the experiment in order to reach a better result is a fair point, but I think it's fair for Randi to expect you to have done that in advance; he's not a researcher per se, rather a final tester. It is a trial, not a research initiative. When you have worked out the parameters in which you will demonstrate success, (and what success and failure mean) you meet Randi and agree to them.

In making the requirement stronger, that they agree to what implies that they do not have the abilities they claim, he is upping the ante in a way that will appeal to the audience -- he is a showman after all. He may have other reasons for putting this clause in -- he wants a serious investment on the part of the contestant. By creating something that they can lose, they are forced to be serious. As he said, he uses it as a criterion for accepting people.

However, I agree with you to an extent -- I don't think he's being as unfair as you say, but it's not entirely a pleasant situation for the contestant -- an actual conclusion that you don't have any powers seems to severe -- a more fair one is to agree to what creates a conclusion that you haven't been able to demonstrate the powers, rather than a conclusion that you actually have none. But if you are confident of your success and have tried the experiments before under agreeable conditions, you should get by if you have the powers you expect (unless those powers mysteriously fail you).

Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 25 2008 12:07:17 AM
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yogibear

409 Posts

Posted - Apr 25 2008 :  07:52:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Katrine,

quote:
Katrine wrote:

Everything I eat is almost immediately "digested".....or "prosessed" ....and comes up as ecstacyenergy....and after reaching the head....there is a release of fragrance/taste "tiny drops" (I don't know what else to call it...since it is more like vapor than drops) down from the nazal tract and then..... the sinking into the chest "glow". This usually takes place just a few minutes after the meal is finished.


Katrine, that is so cool. I am so happy for you. And so envious to. Can't wait until this happens to my food I am privileged to enjoy this kind of desert.

Even tho it is perhaps a minor point compared to other aspects of spiritual growth, it is nice to see someone actually experiencing it and not just reading about it in a book.

All the best, yb.

PS, I totally agree with you about the rat poison.
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Katrine

Norway
1813 Posts

Posted - Apr 25 2008 :  10:02:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit Katrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Yogibear

quote:
Even tho it is perhaps a minor point compared to other aspects of spiritual growth, it is nice to see someone actually experiencing it and not just reading about it in a book.



It is not the least important.....I don't know if it is as is written (I have only read about the drops in this forum....I am not familiar with other scriptures that talk about it) since it is vaporlike more than drops .....I feel it is just another thing going on; but the "knowing that this is happening" will not make me understand more. And it is the understanding that I wrote about in the topic "Understanding" that is also the love.

That which is prayer.

I pray that the understanding will continue to "eat" my knowing; so that I will rest in peace and be ever more open.

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Lookatmynavelnow

52 Posts

Posted - Apr 25 2008 :  10:28:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

I know many of my teachers could do this, and they are not. I really don’t know why they are not, and that has stayed my hand so far.



I found this when surfing around. Strong words...
http://www.gurbani.org/webart63.htm

In the view of Spiritual hypocrisy, it is of no surprise to see so many cheaters in the garb of so called Indian and Eastern Yogis, Taantric and mystics pullulating all over India as well the West. They have made the mockery of the sacred science of Yoga. The word "Yoga" comes from the root "Yuj", meaning "Join". So, Yoga means the joining of the false ego (I-ness and my-ness) to the Supreme Self. Today's so called Yoga practice — which involves various sense pleasures, make-show practice of gymnastic like feats, indulging in sex and intoxication — are contradictory to the Yoga's principles. Since many of the so called Yogis are simply attracted to the occult powers (byproducts of Yoga or devotion), they or their disciples will not and cannot attain the stage of Spiritual Perfection.

All Realized Men and the true scriptural texts boldly declare that the conscious practice to display miraculous powers is mean, foolish, poisonous, dangerous, wicked, miserable, spiritual blindness, mental delusion, material slavery, and spiritual imperfection. For this reason, they all tell us that by acquiring one of the Sidhis one may add a little to his power, but he will not be able to realize God. In this context, the scriptures thunder forth the following declarations:

Sidh hovaa sidhi laayee ridhi aakhaa aayu. Gupat pargat hoyi besaalok raakhai bhaayu. Mat dekh bhoolaa veesrai teraa chit na aavai naayu: If I were to become a Siddha, and work miracles, summon wealth and become invisible and visible at will, so that people would hold me in awe—seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind (sggs 14).
Riddhi siddhi prerai bahu bhayee. Buddhihi lobha dikhavahim ayee. Kal bal chhal kari jaahin sameepaa. Anchal baat bujhaavahi deepaa.....Kahiya taata so parama viragee. Trina sama siddhi teeni guna tyagee: O Brother, Ridhis and Sidhis entice man by showing greed to his mind. They use their cleverness, strength, and deception to make friend with him; and then destroy his wisdom. He is the greatest Vairaagee, or detached, who has renounced them (Tulsi Ramayan).
The most wise ones say that those who are engaged in the cultivation of the sublime path of Bhakti (Devotion) or Gian (Self-knowledge), and who are trying to link with Me (i.e., God), for them all these Sidhis are obstacle; because of these Sidhis, they end up uselessly wasting there time (Bhaagvata 11.15.33).
These powers are obstacles to the highest spiritual realization (Patanjali, Yoga Sutra 3-37).
There should be entire rejection of all allurements from all forms of being, even the celestial, for the recurrence of evil contacts remains possible (Patanjali, Yoga Sutra 3-51).
If however a man consciously attempts to display Sidhis he will receive only kicks (Sri Raman Maharshi).
I forbid you, O bhikkhus, to employ any spells or supplications, for they are useless, since the law of Karma governs all things. He who attempts to perform miracles has not understood the doctrine of the Tathagata (Buddha).
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Lookatmynavelnow

52 Posts

Posted - Apr 25 2008 :  10:52:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I am posting 2 different texts about the same yogi at 2 different occasions performing a public demonstration on how to walk on water. I remember watching one of these on TV long time ago.
http://saibabaexposed.blogspot.com/...-crutch.html
http://balakrishna-humansite.blogsp...onalism.html

Round Up - A.R.Kanangi

Superstition; a crutch
Saturday, November 04, 2006 8:59:12 IST

There is only a thin line between superstition and faith. People who are frightened and confused about life and death want a crutch, even if it is shaky. The new law on superstition, however, is necessary, as it will stop some horrible, cruel practices.

If the bill on superstition was passed 45 years ago, Satya Sai Baba would have attracted arrest. He was successfully cashing on the gullibility of people by claiming to be an avatar — endowed with supernatural powers. What he actually did was some cheap tricks like getting watches and kumkum from nowhere. Yogi L.S. Rao, a contemporary, wrote in a newspaper that the rascal knew how to impress people. A baba or sadhu had to first perform some miracles in order to attract attention. When once they were won over, nothing could change their faith.

Yogi Rao – from Bangalore – was a big hit with newsmen. The beedi-smoking yogi told me: "First you have to create an image, you can’t be a sadhu if you wear trousers and jacket. In India, you have to wear saffron or pale-orange brown clothes. No shirt – the torso remains exposed. And then, you must spread the word you went to the Himalayas and kept your head at the feet of the guru. Nobody will check of course whether you have actually been to the Himalayas. That Himalaya tag is very important. And then, armed with powers extraordinary, you descend to the plains and begin performing miracles. I can do better than that rascal. I can drink nitric acid, drink water and bring it out of the nose, walk on burning embers," the yogi said.

He did hold a demonstration before newsmen. It was so convincing. And then, he failed in one demonstration. He charged a fee for the public for the performance of a unique feat. It was at Versova – at that time almost deserted – that he dug a large pond. He said he would walk on water. He had a small kutir at the place. I was with him the previous night and I strongly advised him not to perform the water feat. He would not listen and strangely enough, he appeared to be quite confident.

Technical failure

Next day — in the evening — he stepped into the water and went down. There were loud protests, but everyone was pacified and told to collect the ticket money from a newspaper office. The crowd dispersed and the yogi looked at me pathetically and said: “The bubble burst in the arse. It was a technical failure.” A bubble in the arse?

Very few people went to the newspaper office to get back their money. The yogi made a neat pile and went to Bangalore. “Are you not doing something wrong — cheating people?” I asked him once. “It is not cheating. People want this. They want to believe in miracles. They are confused and afraid. They all want a crutch. I am doing this for a living. My life is simple, but I have to support three wives. That rascal down south is doing the same thing — but in a big way. He is scared of me because I can expose him.”

Yogi Rao was not the only one who could expose Satya Sai Baba. There was a rationalist in Bangalore, who at a big public meeting, did all the “miracles” of Sai Baba and proved they were all just tricks. We have thousands of babas in our country who perform all such miracles and earn their living. What will happen to them if the new bill is passed and becomes an act? It is a fact they are cheating and they need to be stopped.

Next text:

… Russi Karanjia once challenged Yogi Lakshman Sandra Rao of Bangalore to walk on water, if he claimed the powers when the public watched the feat. Taraporewala Swimming pool on the Narimanpoint was booked for the show. Bombay was full of excitement. Blitz National Forum sold tickets for the event. Several thousand strong audience of invitees and paying entertainment hungry crowd gathered in bated breath to see the yogic feat. Yogi Rao removed his dhoti clad in a swimming trunk came before the crowd, bowed the public and prayed all in solemnity. Then he stepped into the depths of the pool. The fooled audience laughed
all the same. Yogi Rao successfully made his point as well that yoga was not meant for miracle making.
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Lookatmynavelnow

52 Posts

Posted - Apr 25 2008 :  11:46:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Lookatmynavelnow

I am posting 2 different texts about the same yogi



http://www.time.com/time/magazine/a...55-3,00.html

This was in 1952. Is it the same man? He does the same stunt with nitric acid.


"For the first time, and in dramatic detail," Hearst's New York Journal-American began running "the remarkable story of how 'the richest girl in the world,' Doris Duke, found peace of mind" as a disciple of Hindu Yogi Rao, "who looks like Rasputin and talks like a Hindu Billy Graham." At 40, reported Feature Writer Omar Garrison, Doris is a changed woman. Garrison saw "simple joy radiate from her smile as she washed dishes at the sink of [the yogi's] shabby bungalow apartment in Hollywood . . . How did the 63-year-old barefoot ascetic give 'the world's richest girl' something she had been unable to buy with a fortune of more than $100,000,000?" It was all due to yoga: "You must start," said Yogi Rao, "with your body . . . Learn to eat properly, breathe properly, and to have correct posture." To demonstrate, he "drank a glass of water, then calmly chewed up the tumbler and swallowed it. 'I'm the only living person who knows what potassium cyanide or fuming nitric acid tastes like,' he declared. 'The others are dead.' Doris Duke . . . was impressed . . ."
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Christi

United Kingdom
3820 Posts

Posted - Apr 25 2008 :  1:22:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Hi Christi,

Yes, this is fully understood. That's why I also wrote:

"This example is just one possible scenario. There can of course be situations when a healer can work with a patient at all levels, and help them overcome their inner conditions of consciousness as well as easing or curing the outer symptoms. But this would take some spiritual attainment on the part of the healer."

Thank you for clarifying this further, and sharing your own experience!


Hi Weaver,

Sorry if I wasn’t very clear. I didn’t mean to say “yes, and I think I am one of those healers who knows what they are doing”.
I meant to say, given the nature of energy healing, I can’t see how any healer could treat the symptoms of a problem without also treating the cause at the level of consciousness. There seems to me to be a direct relationship between the state of the light in the etheric body (chakras and nadis) and the state of consciousness. As I see it, energy healing in its different forms, works both directly on human consciousness and on the flow of light in the etheric body.

Christi
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Christi

United Kingdom
3820 Posts

Posted - Apr 25 2008 :  1:24:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Katrine,

quote:
And now he finally moved in....... Jesus....and now also the mother and the angle


I am very happy for you. I would love to have Jesus and Mary and an angel living with me. Your food digestion sounds like the production of amrita that Yogani talks about sometimes. Amrita means “nectar”, it also means “immortal”.

Yes, the more I give love away, the more comes through me. I am just in the process of setting up a healing practice in the U.K. It will be interesting to see what happens.

I hope you manage to keep your feet on the ground. At least when humans are watching.

Christi
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Christi

United Kingdom
3820 Posts

Posted - Apr 25 2008 :  2:51:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi David

quote:
There are scientific reasons why, in order to be valid, parameters of experiments must be decided in advance. The point that you may need to re-adjust the conditions of the experiment in order to reach a better result is a fair point, but I think it's fair for Randi to expect you to have done that in advance; he's not a researcher per se, rather a final tester. It is a trial, not a research initiative.


I wish you were right, not least because if you were I would very soon be a millionaire. But it doesn’t work like that. Randi isn’t saying, do your research, and when you can produce an experiment which conclusively proves the existence of supernatural powers, and can demonstrate it in front of a panel of research scientists, I will come and watch, and then hand over a million dollars. If he was saying that, then I could do it.

What he is saying in fact is: “tell me when you think you can do this, tell me what you can do, and together we will devise an experiment and that experiment will not go ahead until we are both happy about the conditions and the parameters involved. Then, when a conclusion is reached, you will declare publicly that you do not possess the powers that you believe you do.”
Now I say, that is the research stage, not a final testing stage, and someone would have to be a fool to engage in research under such bizarre conditions. He may want people to think that he is some kind of "final tester" as it draws in crowds, but if you read the "terms and conditions" its all in there.

Of course, I could set the experiment up, test it in laboratory conditions with a team of scientists, and then say to Randi: “here it is, I’m not changing a thing, come and observe and hand over the dosh”. I just have a sneaky feeling; he would suddenly no longer wish to be involved. And I would be left with a large hole in my (already small) pocket.

Christi
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 25 2008 :  3:07:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Then, when a conclusion is reached, you will declare publicly that you do not possess the powers that you believe you do.

Where does he say that?
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Katrine

Norway
1813 Posts

Posted - Apr 25 2008 :  3:28:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Katrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi

quote:
I am very happy for you. I would love to have Jesus and Mary and an angel living with me.


But you already do.

They moved in......with this I mean that I finally fully accepted their existence....their realness; and my previous "ideas" of them sort of dissolved in the shine. So it is not exactly that Jesus and Mary and an angle are living with me....it is more like the shine just.....gets brighter because they once existed. See?

quote:
I hope you manage to keep your feet on the ground. At least when humans are watching.


No worries there! My feet are very much attatched to the earth
I am not interested in developing siddhis. Only understanding.


quote:
Yes, the more I give love away, the more comes through me. I am just in the process of setting up a healing practice in the U.K. It will be interesting to see what happens.


I am very happy for you and all you will encounter, Christi

May your joy and peace spread wide.
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 25 2008 :  3:44:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Christi,
it's to be expected that there is a lot of bias out there on Randi's challenge. But I think you can find a balanced article in Wikipedia, here.

It also deals with the claim you make that he is insincere because he won't pay out under any circumstances, which seems to be false"

Dennis Rawlins claims the challenge is insincere, and that Randi will ensure he never has to pay out. In the October 1981 issue of Fate, Rawlins quoted him as saying "I always have an out".[13] Victor Zammit interprets this to mean Randi will never let his organization lose such a challenge.[14] Others, noting this magazine article grew out of political infighting among the members of CSICOP, believe this quote is being misapplied, and that it refers to the fact that Randi employs safeguards against cheating. Randi has stated that Rawlins did not give the entire quotation.[4] Randi actually said "Concerning the challenge, I always have an 'out': I'm right!"[5],[15] which carries a quite different meaning. Randi claims that the phrase "I always have an out" refers to the fact that he does not allow test subjects to cheat,[16] and others have interpreted it to mean that Randi regards the chances of him having to pay out as zero due to his a priori assumption that so-called "paranormal phenomena" do not exist.

The prize money is offered by an educational foundation, not exclusively Randi himself. I assume he has pledged some of his money, while others have pledged their own.

You have until 2010 to apply:

On January 4, 2008 it was announced that the prize would be discontinued on March 6, 2010 in order to free the money for other uses. In the meantime, claimants are welcome to vie for it. One of the reasons offered for its discontinuation is the unwillingness of higher profile claimants to apply.

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brother neil

USA
752 Posts

Posted - Apr 25 2008 :  4:22:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
christi,
some thoughts
if you want to do that you may need to elimnate many stimulants from your life. not just talking about food. You are eating the computer, television, radio, etc.... All these use your energy. Just like fasting, true fasting, imho, is going without food, talking, sociol interaction, visual, mental, and auditory stimulation, as much as possible. So if you want to live on as little food as possible then you must be digesting as little of this worldly stuff as possible
just thoughts
Neil
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yogibear

409 Posts

Posted - Apr 26 2008 :  08:55:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Katrine,

quote:
Katrine wrote:

I pray that the understanding will continue to "eat" my knowing; so that I will rest in peace and be ever more open.


To me what you describe is some form of the spiritual digestion cycle that Yogani writes about. It is an indicator that very good things are happening. Of course, you have a lot of other VGIs happening, too.

I am not a lofty person. I am sure that I would be classified as more of bhogi than a yogi. I like every little last bit of spiritual growth, even if it is physical. I welcome any aspect of it, especially the pleasure. For me right now it is a rather pleasurable cramp in my pelvic floor which sometimes radiates up into my abdomen, pleasure in my palate, nose and sinuses, a general loosening of my grip on the phenomenal world and an allowance of what is to be what is. Sometimes a noticeably happier and more peaceful feeling than normal.

It is what my practice is giving me at the present time. It isn’t meeting Jesus, spontaneous healings or spiritual digestion. But I will take it.

I laugh sometimes when I read your posts because it reads like you know a lot about yoga even tho you say that you know nothing about it. “Painted cakes do not satisfy hunger.” Understanding, direct experience trumps knowing any day. From your posts, I “know” you are eating plenty of tasty cake.

Enjoy, yb.
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Katrine

Norway
1813 Posts

Posted - Apr 27 2008 :  4:59:57 PM  Show Profile  Visit Katrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Yogibear

quote:
For me right now it is a rather pleasurable cramp in my pelvic floor which sometimes radiates up into my abdomen, pleasure in my palate, nose and sinuses, a general loosening of my grip on the phenomenal world and an allowance of what is to be what is. Sometimes a noticeably happier and more peaceful feeling than normal.



This is wonderful, Yogibear. Sounds like a breakthrough - I am very happy for you.

quote:
It is what my practice is giving me at the present time. It isn’t meeting Jesus, spontaneous healings or spiritual digestion. But I will take it.


Yes. I was trying to convey to you that you need not be jealous of my experiences. I am sorry I did such a poor job of it I too want you to enjoy yourself.....not feel "lacking". Reading my response to you, I see that when I say the physical experiences are "of no importance"......I then automatically sort of brush off parts of your experience as being "unimportant". I apologize - that is not what I want to do! Thanks for responding like you did, Yogibear. I will take it to heart and hopefully learn from it.

Of course you must enjoy and be happy about every aspect of your journey.

I hope you stay inspired!

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Christi

United Kingdom
3820 Posts

Posted - Apr 28 2008 :  1:50:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply


quote:
"Then, when a conclusion is reached, you will declare publicly that you do not possess the powers that you believe you do."

Where does he say that?

Hi David,

Maybe you missed that bit, it was covered above. Before someone can claim the million dollar prize, they have to apply to take part in the competition. There are rules for taking part, one of which is to agree to an experiment, and Randi and his team are involved, along with the person demonstrating the supernatural power, in setting up the experiment. Then, the contestant who is attempting to demonste supernatural powers has to sign a legal document containing a number of clauses. One of the clauses contains these words:

“agree upon what will constitute a conclusion that he/she does not possess the claimed ability or powers.”

The whole process is made public from the first application of a contestant via Randi’s website. If agreements about what constitutes a conclusion are built into the framework of the experiments... and I’ll bet they are, then that effectively binds the contestant to a public statement that they do not posess the powers that they claim, whatever the outcome of the experiment. I am sure it is a mistake made by someone writing out the legal document, but at the moment, that is how it stands.


quote:
It also deals with the claim you make that he is insincere because he won't pay out under any circumstances, which seems to be false


I did not say that he would not pay out under any circumstances. I said that if I were to go through the research stage, and come to a final testing stage, and invite Randi and his team along to watch, with my “final test” perameters as the test perameters of the experiment to see if I win the million dollars, then I would bet that they wouldn’t want to show up. That is not the same as saying he would not pay out under any circumstances. As you say though, he did admit that “he always has an out”. And I think it’s pretty obvious how that works.

There are a number of very questionable aspects to the whole competition some of which I have already covered. Here they are:

1. That the people running it are extremely predjudice against people with paranormal abilities, believing them all to be either fraudulent or self-deluded.
2. That they insist on playing an active role in setting up the research parameters for testing the abilities of the applicants, and that they will then make quite absurd public statements about the abilities of applicants based on what can only be considered to be research results at best.
3. They make out that what they are doing is somehow rational and scientific, when in fact it is quite the opposite, unscientific witch-hunting. No scientist would behave like this, making such rediculous public statements about people based on inconclusive evidence.
4. That they then imply that nobody has supernatural abilities simply because people who actually posess those abilities will not go through this sham of a competietion.

Randi is conning people into believing that he is a serious investigator of the supernatural, when in fact, he is not. If he was, then he would go about such an investigation in a rational and scientific manner, and would probably benefit the world in many wonderful ways. He has tricked millions of people into believing that he is doing good for the world rather than harm. It is difficult to say how many people have and will suffer as a result of his actions, and the actions of the members of the organisation he is involved with.

The way forward, as I see it, is for psychics to work with serious scientific research teams. Possibly magicians could be involved (the fake ones, not the real ones), to help eliminate obvious tricks and slight of hand, but then impartial magicians could be involved, not openly hostile magicians such as Randi.

I believe that in the future, supernatural abilities will play the major role in health care, both for treating people who are sick, and for helping people maintain good health. Disease prevention will become the predominant health care model, and healers using supernatural abilities will play the leading role in this. Increasing public knowledge of these abilities and acceptance by the scientific community will both play a part in bringing this about. The process has already begun, with millions of people all over the world already going to healers who posess supernatural abilities. Acceptance by the scientific community will be followed by incorporation of new models of existence and understanding of the higher aspects of the universe into scientific understanding. This has already begun with the progress being made with Quantum physics. The process is well under way already and things are closing in from all sides onto one inevitable outcome. People like Randi and his team are in fact part of a desperate last stand, which will meet defeat on every front as the tide of human spiritual transformation continues to rise all over the world.

Christi
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 28 2008 :  3:54:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with you some of the way, but not entirely. A lot of what a person thinks of Randi will depend on what they believe in. Much the same for politics. Just a few notes:

1. That the people running it are extremely predjudice against people with paranormal abilities, believing them all to be either fraudulent or self-deluded.

This much is true.

2. That they insist on playing an active role in setting up the research parameters for testing the abilities of the applicants, and that they will then make quite absurd public statements about the abilities of applicants based on what can only be considered to be research results at best.

The active role is necessary; for full validity the parameters of experiments have to be set up in advance. But I agree that they should agree on a criterion which determines 'failure to prove' rather than 'failure to have the powers'.

Randi is conning people into believing that he is a serious investigator of the supernatural, when in fact, he is not.

Well, I don't think he is a serious investigator of the supernatural either. I'm not sure he claims to be. He's a serious debunker. Again, whether you think he is good or bad depends on what you think of the underlying movement, beliefs and values. And I think your own mind is just as made-up on the matter as his is.

Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 28 2008 3:59:53 PM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3820 Posts

Posted - Apr 28 2008 :  5:02:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
christi,
some thoughts
if you want to do that you may need to elimnate many stimulants from your life. not just talking about food. You are eating the computer, television, radio, etc.... All these use your energy. Just like fasting, true fasting, imho, is going without food, talking, sociol interaction, visual, mental, and auditory stimulation, as much as possible. So if you want to live on as little food as possible then you must be digesting as little of this worldly stuff as possible
just thoughts
Neil


Hi Neil,

Absolutely. In fact there is a book called Living on Light written by a lovely lady whose name I can never spell. Something like “Jasmuheen”. She lived on water for 6 months at one point. She describes in the book the process that she went through in her final stages of weaning herself off food, and she describes exactly what you mention here. She spent about a month I believe in solitude and in silence, even without a TV! She did read some books but she said it was O.K. if they were light romantic novels or spiritual books. She spoke very little during that time and only saw one person who was keeping an eye on her.

I agree with you that television is very draining of our energy. I haven’t watched TV for about 18 years now and my life is much better than it was then.

Christi
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yogibear

409 Posts

Posted - Apr 28 2008 :  7:50:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Katrine,

quote:
Katrine wrote:

This is wonderful, Yogibear. Sounds like a breakthrough - I am very happy for you.


It is an insidious breakthru. The kind that just slowly sneaks up on you.

quote:


Yes. I was trying to convey to you that you need not be jealous of my experiences. I am sorry I did such a poor job of it I too want you to enjoy yourself.....not feel "lacking".


Thanks, Katrine. My jealously is of a rather superficial and fleeting nature. It doesn’t have a negative effect on me. I am fairly content. Life is pretty balanced right now.

quote:
I hope you stay inspired!


I know that it is just a matter of time and practice before my nervous system becomes active at a higher level like yours. It is great for me to be able to read your posts and other posts here.
They do inspire me.

quote:
Katrine wrote:

Reading my response to you, I see that when I say the physical experiences are "of no importance"......I then automatically sort of brush off parts of your experience as being "unimportant". I apologize - that is not what I want to do!


No need to apologize.

Really, I am happy for you and Christi and Jim and others and hope to join the ranks of people who experience expanded states of consciousness on a regular basis.

Right now, the just simple habit of letting go is very pleasurable to me. The complete unimportance of thoughts that are of such importance, to see thru this illusion completely, to see them as thoughts and nothing more, having no reality, and returning to the mantra, has its own peculiar simple pleasure.

The silent recognition of this fact, every time it happens, that I like. And when I reflect on it, I can see progress in this ability. I am getting better and better at 'on the spot' 'from the hip' letting go of my holding on.

I think that it is working with the mantra during meditation that is developing this ability. And Yogani's Self Inquiry book helped a lot too.

But still along ways to go. Which is fine.

quote:
Thanks for responding like you did, Yogibear.


Aw shucks, ma'am, twern't nothin'.

quote:
Of course you must enjoy and be happy about every aspect of your journey.


Yes, and my attention will be focusd on less material things like you, all in good time. Again, I am really happy for you. Not jealous. How great to be experiencing the fruits of yoga practice.

Thanks, Katrine.

Life is good. Best, yb.


Edited by - yogibear on Apr 28 2008 7:52:21 PM
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VIL

USA
586 Posts

Posted - Apr 28 2008 :  11:22:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe some of the reason why abilities are unable to be proven in a test situation is related to that quantum video where electons behave differently when observed.



VIL
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