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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 19 2008 :  2:35:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Christi said:
think I would worry about anyone going on the Randi show. It is an American TV show... it is designed to do one thing, to make money. It is not designed to give anyone a million dollars. The show gets audiences by denouncing people as frauds. Thatís all it does. I would strongly advise anyone on this forum, or anywhere else, who is experiencing the development of supernatural powers in their body to not go on this show whatever happens.


There is currently a significant area of research into reliable ways of telling if someone is telling the truth or not -- machines are being developed for the purpose and the future is promising. My own personal prediction is that they will be successful in the endeavor, and the world will be impacted positively in many ways.

Such a business an be called lie detection, or also truth evidencing (it's really honesty-evidencing). Really, they are the same thing -- if you can prove (or provide very powerful evidence for) the telling of lies, then you can provide very powerful evidence that they are telling the truth.

If such machines are successful, the benefit to society will be enormous. People who were wrongly convicted will be able to get out of prison on the strength of their own empowered truth-telling. In other cases, one-witness crimes will be more possible to prosecute on the basis of empowered truth-telling. If someone has lies to tell, I could see reason to be hostile to such a machine. If someone has important truth to tell, I could see good reason to be positive.

Potentially, it will have an impact on the guru-business too. Someone who has interesting experiences to report might well be asked by an intelligent public to empower their testimony of their experience by machine.

Randi's set-up is something like a lie-detector set-up -- or a truth-evidencing set-up to someone who intends to be truthful. Right now, if a person has demonstrable psychic abilities, they can establish a successful proof through Randi. Randi is a blessing or a curse, depending on whether one is a fraud or not.

Randi doesn't believe in psychic powers, he believes the claimants are all frauds or deluded. This doesn't matter. He invokes no fear or hostility in me whatsoever, despite the fact that he is geared to proving 'fraud', just as a lie-detector is geared to detecting lies, but also serves to evidence non-fraud. He is geared to proving fraud, and will be an empowerer of non-fraud. If I manifest genuine 'psychic' powers, he is my friend, not my enemy.


I think anyone interested in making demonstrations of supernormal powers to scientists

Unfortunately, this doesn't work. Scientists aren't good fraud-detectors. They are too naive in the ways of conjuring. Time and time again, they were hoodwinked. Right now, we yawn if some scientist is hoodwinked. If Randi is convinced, we will not yawn. Prove on front of Randi, and the scientists will follow. The only way to have tests taken seriously is through a serious test.

I'm not saying claimants to paranormal powers are always lying. They are often deluded through simple cognitive biases. There are a number of these biases and they are an interesting study in themselves.

Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 19 2008 5:56:03 PM
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Anthem

1608 Posts

Posted - Apr 19 2008 :  5:19:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
I have already mentioned in another thread that I can perform supernatural abilities that would prove the existence of such powers, but so far have decided not to undergo scientific experiments. The reasons are simple. Firstly a properly conducted scientific test, carried out under proper conditions would have to involve a lot of people and would be expensive to carry out. I canít imagine any reputable team of scientists actually funding the study.


Hi Christi,

It might not be as difficult to find a reputable scientist willing to fund and carry out experiments of this nature. A young Canadian guy, who has exceptional healing talents is doing just that, see here:

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ID=3651#3651

I believe his approach in the beginning was to meet with one open-minded scientist in a related field, demonstrate his abilities and then volunteer to do experiments. I can't remember the details, but between his books and his conference, he discusses his role in this of regularly participating in experiments to prove his abilities at a reputable American university.

quote:
Secondly, even if someone did fund it, I think the scientists would simply conclude that a power is being effectively demonstrated, but they have no idea how it is being done. I could explain how it is done to them, but the chances of them believing me is so small, that it could be a waste of breath.


I believe this is the thrust of Adam's intentions. He wants to help science build a bridge between known science and yet to be understood science (supernormal powers).

quote:
Supernatural powers work in specific scientific ways, but understanding how they work requires an understanding of whole aspects of the universe that currently lie outside of the modern scientific paradigm. I donít think me making a demonstration of my (relatively minor) supernormal powers would change the world, and may not change anything at all. It would probably get reported in some scientific journal somewhere and then be forgotten about. Personally, I donít see the point of going through all that.


Perhaps to help open the minds of this world a little bit further, much good can come from that.
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Lookatmynavelnow

52 Posts

Posted - Apr 19 2008 :  5:22:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian


If anyone involved in AYP develops real powers that they can really demonstrate, I'd entreat them to do the following: organize a test for the Randi prize, which is now over $1 million.


There are a vast number of people on this earth, as well as spiritual beings, that could easily demonstrate the kind of phenomena you are asking for. Yet they are not, and one might wonder why. I think this is so because humankind has free will to choose and determine the future, and a divine demonstration would be interfering with that. Free will means that God will not force the Reality on anyone, and the same goes for the demonstration of mastery of a higher reality to people really not interested.
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emc

2072 Posts

Posted - Apr 20 2008 :  05:08:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
LaMNN, I think you have a point. I also associate to the vast number of people out there that perform miracles in healing, mind reading and fortelling the future all the time, but they have no interest in showing off!

I believe the further we go on this path, the more our wisdom will increase, and also our humbleness/humility. We will not have the incitament to go prove anything. We will use our gifts where they are needed, and they are not needed to chock the masses out there in a TV show.

I have a friend who can stop bleedings. She is a nurse, and the during operations, the doctors are always astonished how the bleeding is inhibited when she is near. Yet, they don't investigate it further, and she doesn't care. She serves the best way she can.

Heard about another person (whom I know is for real and her talents are for real) who worked at a hospital and her treatments increased the healing rate of the patients to such degree that she was asked to leave her job. The doctors couldn't take it that her methods were more efficient than theirs. She didn't feel the need to fight for her rights, methods or to prove herself. To fight the compact medical health care system was not of her interest. She heals people outside of hospitals instead...

The doctors could have all possibilities in the world to do research on the famous "placebo effect", but instead of investigating further the amazing powers of the "mind" ( haha, it's so hilarious when you know it's the divine behind it all...) they sort of just say BAH! and arrogantly wave it off as "It's just the Placebo", as if they knew what that was!? There is some research done at the placebo, but there is not much interest in it compared to other medical areas, but as long as they haven't found the factor X behind it, it's difficult to do anything else than conclude that there is some great power there behind thoughts... Hahahaha! Looking at it from the spiritual perspective really makes the whole situation seem ridiculous!

As long as we can't "measure" the powerful energy in a reliable and valid way... what is there to do for a scientist? Continue to try to prove "there MUST BE something influencing the results" without ever finding it, because it has to be looked for inside himself and eventually self-experienced by deep meditation?

Edited by - emc on Apr 20 2008 05:11:50 AM
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yogibear

409 Posts

Posted - Apr 20 2008 :  08:58:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi.

Swami Rama demonstrated telekinesis when he was the subject of biofeedback experiments at the Menninger Foundation back in the early 70's I believe. He caused a knitting needle to rotate something like 10 degrees on its axis. But his preparation for this feat and his performance of it was so clunky that it makes me think he did not have much in the way of siddhis. His time at the Menninger Foundation is chronicled in the book Swami.

His performance was certainly not as facile as John Wilder throwing socks around his room in Yogani's Secrets of Wilder book.

What about David Blaine in his TV Documentary, Street Magic? He does some things on there that I find hard to believe are just simple slight of hand. I think of him as some kind western modern day fakir with some minor powers.

I think if some one has powers, they could be demonstrated in a way that is irrefutable. For example telling people things about themselves that are impossible for the siddha to know in a vary detailed and perfect way. Not like the John Edwards (is that his name?) guy on TV who is just in the ball park. I mean hitting the ball out of the park. Like in Be Here Now, when Neem Karoli Baba blew Ram Dass' mind by telling him about his mothers illness and death and there was just no way he could know this except thru siddhis.

So, being a John Edwards type guy but being spot on with what you say, not just guessing and being vaguely possibly right. I mean irrefutably accurate.

This could be documented as an andcdotal type of study. These case reports are gaining greater and greater weight in the health care field. In other words when a healthcare practioner documents the results of a particular case where a particular result was achieved by a particular method. For example, restoring sight to a blind man thru chiropractic care.

As stories like this accumulate in the scientific literature, they become more a part of the fabric of our accepted reality.

I think if some one really has powers and demonstrated them to him, Randhi would be kissing their feet.

Best, yb.

Edited by - yogibear on Apr 20 2008 09:03:47 AM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3816 Posts

Posted - Apr 20 2008 :  1:07:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi David,
quote:
Randi's set-up is something like a lie-detector set-up -- or a truth-evidencing set-up to someone who intends to be truthful.


Randi is nothing like a lie detector and a lot like an American TV presenter without any scientific qualifications. Someone would have to be insane or desperate to go on that show.
One day you will experience supernormal powers manifesting in your own body and then you will come to know if Randi is a friend of a foe.

Hi Anthem
quote:
A young Canadian guy, who has exceptional healing talents is doing just that, see here:

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ID=3651#3651


Thanks for the info.
I had a look at the website. I donít know if I missed it but I couldnít see anything about scientific tests, so I donít know what kind of tests are being carried out. If he is involved in tests on the validity of the healing work he is doing then that is nothing new. Many healers have been working with scientists for quite a while now to establish scientific evidence to support (or refute) the effectiveness of alternative healing methods. So far nothing very much has been concluded one way or the other due to difficulties with the methods used for scientific verification.

It is hard to work out what this guy does when he gives one to one healings, but I suspect he is using spiritual vision to see energetic blockages in peopleís bodies, and then an energetic radiance from the palms of his hands to clear those blockages.

In his seminars it seems that he is teaching people how to use creative imagination to enhance the healing process in their own bodies. This is something that can be effective, but it largely depends on the level of pranic flow present in someoneís body in the first place. Imagination on itís own can have a powerful effect on the mental and emotional levels in most people, but to make changes on the physical level it works much better when prana is flowing well. The imagination changes the flow of prana (in the pranakosha) and it is the prana that enhances the healing process. At the present time most people have a relatively low level of pranic flow and a high level of blockages in their bodies so the possibilities of using creative imagination to enhance healing on a physical level is quite limited. It will work well for some.

Hi LAMNN,
quote:
There are a vast number of people on this earth, as well as spiritual beings, that could easily demonstrate the kind of phenomena you are asking for. Yet they are not, and one might wonder why. I think this is so because humankind has free will to choose and determine the future, and a divine demonstration would be interfering with that. Free will means that God will not force the Reality on anyone, and the same goes for the demonstration of mastery of a higher reality to people really not interested.


It is a divine power, but then everything is a divine power. We are divine beings. Every time you smile at someone, thatís a divine act, everytime you make someone a cup of tea that's a divine act. There is nothing more divine about using prana to heal someone, or using spiritual sight to help someone. Itís really all the same thing. Likewise, using any supernormal power is as divine as singing or dancing of painting a picture. I honestly donít know why more people are not undergoing scientific tests to proove the validity of what we now call the supernormal. Maybe they feel the same way as I do, that the paradigm shift in understanding would simply be too great at the present time for these powers to be understood and accepted into the mainstream or even at the most advanced levels of current scientific understanding.

If we have free will, then we are free to use powers to help people.

Christi
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 20 2008 :  5:48:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Christi said:
Randi is nothing like a lie detector and a lot like an American TV presenter without any scientific qualifications.


It's interesting if it's supposed to be a slur on him that he hasn't got scientific qualfications. The highly-prestigious peer-reviewed scientific journal Nature admitted an article on bogus science that it took Randi to expose. It's all the more impressive that Randi did that without scientific qualifictions, where the trained men of science have failed. He's a magician and he knows how tricks are done and he also knows both about deception and self-deception.

One day you will experience supernormal powers manifesting in your own body and then you will come to know if Randi is a friend of a foe.

The word 'supernormal' is vague and I'll interpret it as supernatural. (I have already had unusual things happen to my body and they're no big deal.) If I experience 'supernatural powers manifesting in my body', my view on Randi won't change. If I decide it is good that people know that I have such powers, he's the perfect opportunity. He is not a threat unless I am a fraud -- he empowers me if I am genuine. He's exactly like a good lie-detector/truthfulness-evidencer. He's my friend if I am genuine, and he is a foe if I am a fraud (or deluded). And yes, personally if I experience supernatural powers that I can genuinely manifest, I'm off to Randi, because I see it is my duty to the world to illuminate the world on their existence.

The differences between you and me on this may not be due to what you might seem to think -- namely less experience on my part of supernormal powers manifesting in my body than you have in yours -- and rather have much more to do with different levels of caution regarding how we interpret experiences.

BTW, plenty has already happened in my body that I would have thought supernormal if I didn't have the benefit of a modern scientific education on the one hand, and a cautious, self-questioning nature on the other. I have some pretty strong yogic experiences, (the most profound I can't even describe) but I usually keep quiet about them. I'm not overly-impressed with them, and that's the way it should be. That's the way it should be for every yogi.

If it were the Middle Ages in Europe, and I had an experience of seeing, say, a Spirit-Being, say an angel, I would probably have believed it was an actual angel, and would have ended up either burned as a witch or revered as a saint. When it happens in this age, I note I have an experience like seeing an angel. I don't interpret my internal visions literally as representing as an objective reality precisely what they seem to contain. A vision of an angel (and I have seen such things) is not an actual sighting of an angel to me. I'm much more cautious than that -- I have a kind of humility in this particular domain. I believe that is due to a strength of mine, not a weakness.

There are plenty of strong teachings in the Yoga world about not holding onto visions. Better to go a step further and realize that they are just visions. It's harder not to hold onto them if they are not right-sized. And conversely if they are strongly held-onto, it's hard to allow them to be right-sized.

I suppose it's a matter of being, hey, Age-appropriate. Age with a capital-A, as in Middle Ages, Modern Age, Information Age etc.

Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 21 2008 12:42:32 PM
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Lookatmynavelnow

52 Posts

Posted - Apr 20 2008 :  6:28:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi


We are divine beings.

If we have free will, then we are free to use powers to help people.

Christi



Yes. And my point is that those beings above us do use their powers to help us all the time, but not one is appearing on TV. Because it would not help us in this particular time and space, or maybe because our karma will not allow it.
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Lookatmynavelnow

52 Posts

Posted - Apr 20 2008 :  6:48:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian


A vision of an angel (and I have seen such things) is not an actual sighting of an angel to me.



If I where an angel, how could I work with you if you deny my existence a priori? Maybe thatís why they donít show themselves to you?
My guess is that the angels are very caring about you, since they do not expose you to the danger of denying the reality or the message of an angel, and thus saves you from receiving the instant karmic return of the denial of a representative of God.
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 20 2008 :  8:25:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
LAMNN, you seem to have a lot of beliefs to which I don't subscribe. I don't believe in any sort of 'karmic return' from 'denial' of a 'representative of god'.

If I where an angel, how could I work with you if you deny my existence a priori?

I'm not concerned because I just don't believe the universe works that way.

At what point in my AYP practice am I supposed to be believing that what I have experienced are real angels? I don't think I have to be concerned about that as a yogi. A yogi really doesn't need to concern himself with such things. Really.

Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 22 2008 11:57:59 AM
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yogibear

409 Posts

Posted - Apr 21 2008 :  07:57:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi LAMMN,

quote:
LAMMN wrote:

If I where an angel, how could I work with you if you deny my existence a priori? Maybe thatís why they donít show themselves to you?


My teacher's response to these reports of visitations from students was simply, "it is your subconscious". I never heard him say anything more than that about it. He would just totally blow it off. I think it was his version of "scenary."

It happened to me once. He just laughed when I told him and gave me the same answer.

That is a yogi's response to it. To keep meditating.

Best, yb.

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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 21 2008 :  12:14:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
YB said:
My teacher's response to these reports of visitations from students was simply, "it is your subconscious". I never heard him say anything more than that about it.


Hi Yogibear, yes, that's the way I would teach too.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3816 Posts

Posted - Apr 21 2008 :  6:07:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi LAMNN,

quote:
Yes. And my point is that those beings above us do use their powers to help us all the time, but not one is appearing on TV. Because it would not help us in this particular time and space, or maybe because our karma will not allow it.


Actually, if truth be told, this is really my biggest reason for not going out there and proving the existence of supernormal powers in the scientific world. The two reasons I gave above are minor ones... potential lack of funding, and the fact that the results would not be understood. They are both surmountable problems. The real reason is that I know many of my teachers could do this, and they are not. I really donít know why they are not, and that has stayed my hand so far. If they were doing this, then I am sure I would too, to help build up scientific data to further enhance human understanding of the universe.

But I am not (quite yet) ready to be the first one, especially as I consider my teachers to be a lot wiser than I am. I donít know if it has anything to do with karma. I donít know why we canít demonstrate supernatural powers, especially if it will help potentially millions of people through improved healing techniques. I would love it if someone who knows would tell us.

Christi
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Christi

United Kingdom
3816 Posts

Posted - Apr 21 2008 :  6:12:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi David

quote:
It's interesting if it's supposed to be a slur on him that he hasn't got scientific qualfications


Not a slur at all. Many wonderful people have no scientific qualifications. I was simply pointing out that if we are looking for scientific proof of the existence or non-existence of supernatural powers then it is to scientists that we should go, as they have the training (and the qualifications to prove they have had the training) to carry out research that would be unbiased and conclusive. Anything less could be not only inconclusive but actually detrimental. Going to a TV presenter who wants the results to always swing one way, and who is paid large sums of money to make the results always swing one way and who is not himself a scientist seems.... how can I put it.... ?

As to how your views on Randi will change once you have developed supernormal powers, I canít see how anyone could possibly know at this point. Lets see when the time comes. If you do go on the show, let me know and Iíll watch.

I do agree with you though that scientists could be fooled by a fraud, someone pretending to have supernormal powers when they donít. But hopefully studies that are well set up and properly conducted would help to reduce that posibility.

On the subject of seeing angels... it is true that we donít know if such visions are real or not. We canít say they are not, and we canít say they are. The safest bet by far would be to not make a big deal of it and continue meditating. I am sure angels donít mind at all if we donít believe in them, even once we have seen them. In fact, I donít think they are really aware of that level of reality. Belief and non-belief belong to the lower mental realms, and that is only one step up from the physical. Angels are aware of reality from the emotional realms upwards (emotional, etheric, astral, causal) and when they get together to pray, they pray to the atmic (beyond the causal). In other words, they would simply be unaware if someone believed in them or not. When they respond to calls for help, they are not responding to thoughts (on the mental level) but to emotions, or more usually, to changes in the vibration of the light body that happen in moments of intense prayer. This is what I have seen when I have watched them.

Christi
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Balance

USA
967 Posts

Posted - Apr 21 2008 :  6:46:57 PM  Show Profile  Visit Balance's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply

I wonder just for fun if angels are the paintbrush of Consciousness.

I've heard it said they are in the architecture.

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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 21 2008 :  7:15:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Christi said:
Not a slur at all. Many wonderful people have no scientific qualifications. I was simply pointing out that if we are looking for scientific proof of the existence or non-existence of supernatural powers then it is to scientists that we should go, as they have the training (and the qualifications to prove they have had the training) to carry out research that would be unbiased and conclusive. Anything less could be not only inconclusive but actually detrimental. Going to a TV presenter who wants the results to always swing one way, and who is paid large sums of money to make the results always swing one way and who is not himself a scientist seems.... how can I put it.... ?

I do agree with you though that scientists could be fooled by a fraud, someone pretending to have supernormal powers when they donít. But hopefully studies that are well set up and properly conducted would help to reduce that posibility.


Randi's value in the process stems largely from his knowledge of conjuring and fraud. It's definitely true that scientists should be involved, but you also need someone who knows conjuring. Scientists tend to be naive in that area. They are a way too trusting -- they don't allow very much for the possibility of deception -- and they don't know how it is done, and will rule it out prematurely because they don't know the 'tricks' of the deception trade. They actually have to be trusting, because it's impossible to verify every experiment for the possibility of fraud by the experimenter. Generally, the scientist is trusted that he did the experiments he reports in the way he reports. The scientific debate is then generally on what those results under those conditions mean. The system is so dependent on trust that an unscrupulous scientist can cause a disastrous waste of other's work; it's rare, but it happens occasionally.

As I was saying before, he exposed fraud/self-deception in an important case where peer-review didn't catch it. This was with Bienviniste's famous claims that homeopathic treatment changes the property of water. When Randi properly blinded' the experiment, suddenly it wasn't picking up the right results. I suspect that Bienveniste wasn't behaving deliberately fraudulently, but rather was 'subconsciously' operating from cognitive biases as he scored his results.

I don't know if he requires attendance on the show for the purpose of claiming the prize. Certainly, Bienveniste was not on his show. And this isn't to say that I'm in general agreement with him -- if I remember rightly he dismisses Yoga out of hand, in a sort of knee-jerk reaction, as if it's all a load of rubbish, and I wouldn't agree with him on that.

Suppose you wake up in the morning and find that you have a very clear, genuinely-reproducible paranormal power. Randi is your ticket to very quickly establishing this to the scientific world. Without him, the path to establishing this would be much slower.

When they respond to calls for help, they are not responding to thoughts (on the mental level) but to emotions, or more usually, to changes in the vibration of the light body that happen in moments of intense prayer. This is what I have seen when I have watched them.

It's true that I can't positively rule out the existence of such creatures, or that they operate in the way you say. But if I had an experience of 'seeing' them, (and I did have more than one such experience) I'd still be more likely to believe that it was just a vision of mine. It seems to be the most likely explanation when I hear other people have had such visions too.

But if you do develop some powers you can demonstrate, I'm right behind you in your efforts to demonstrate them to science, and to make the world aware of them. And I would look forward to the look on Randi's face when the prize is collected from him. (Truth is, he'd make his money back ten times over in the reproduction rights to the recording, so we needn't worry about him financially. Either way, he's going to win on this!)
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Divineis

Canada
420 Posts

Posted - Apr 21 2008 :  10:27:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Balance


I wonder just for fun if angels are the paintbrush of Consciousness.

I've heard it said they are in the architecture.





Nice, I dig it. When people ask me about meditation and such, I often explain it as getting in touch with "the empty canvas of your mind".

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weaver

832 Posts

Posted - Apr 22 2008 :  02:20:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Christi wrote:

But I am not (quite yet) ready to be the first one, especially as I consider my teachers to be a lot wiser than I am. I donít know if it has anything to do with karma. I donít know why we canít demonstrate supernatural powers, especially if it will help potentially millions of people through improved healing techniques. I would love it if someone who knows would tell us.

I won't profess to know the answer, but I will share a possible view on it. Along with the view that we in essence are our consciousness, I also believe that a large part of what outpictures in our environment and beings, including our physical body, emotions, thoughts etc. ultimately are expressions of what we have chosen to adopt or entertain in our consciousness. Obviously, our consciousness is influenced by our environment as well, so it works both ways. And, there are of course a lot of seemingly random events that are the result of the collective consciousness of mankind, and other beings, that affect our individual lives as well, but part of the big picture is basically determined by our own choices, often over a very long time.

Some spiritual teachings call this the law of karma, others "as you sow so shall you reap" etc. It's just a law of cause and effect, which we know works with physical properties, but it's not unreasonable that it could work in a more fundamental way with consciousness vs. environment as well. How this works out in detail in daily life is of course very complex, with 8 billion people contributing. And it would hardly be possible to "prove" explicitly or not with standard scientific methods. However, it is part of scientific methods, to postulate, and work with the possibility, that a law can work in a more general case than what has already been proven.

Now, if a person has an illness, and it's the outpicturing of a condition of consciousness (possibly deep-seated in the subconscious, in the form of depression, or adopted beliefs that he is limited in certain ways, or adopted self-destructive desires of some kind (which is a recognized condition in psychiatry)), then I think it would be fundamentally more important to address the condition of consciousness, than merely trying to fix the outer illness itself. This does not negate the value of the work of standard medicine. However, the outer illness can actually serve as a pointer to the person that there may be something they have work on in their consciousness. I think modern medicine is moving in the right direction when considering a "holistic" approach to healing, involving the consciousness and internal well-being of patients.

In this example, if Christi, or someone with the power of healing, would come, put his hand on this person, and make him healed of his outer illness, but the inner condition remained, this would not be a completely satisfactory solution. The illness may come back again later if the real cause is not dealt with. And, the person could be deprived of learning that there is something he needs to address in his consciousness. If someone came and put his hand on the person and healed the subconscious malady as well, it could be a violation of his free will, to have something removed that he has created himself. At least he would be deprived of learning how to overcome it by his own growth and mastery.

This example is just one possible scenario. There can of course be situations when a healer can work with a patient at all levels, and help them overcome their inner conditions of consciousness as well as easing or curing the outer symptoms. But this would take some spiritual attainment on the part of the healer. Merely learning and using a method of outer healing would be less optimal, or could even be counter-productive in some cases. There can also be situations where illnesses are caused by collective conditions, and by purely outer environmental conditions, and healing is of course of great value in these cases. But again, it needs to be used with discernment.

In general, I think learning how to heal/master oneself is far more valuable than being healed by an outside force or person. It's like giving someone food vs. teaching them to produce their own food. This might be something that spiritual teachers can see clearly, when they develop powers, that there are many situations, possibly a majority, where people wouldn't really be helped by seeing a demonstration of powers, or being healed by them. Seeing a demonstration of powers can even make people put the demonstrator on a pedestal, like they did with Jesus, which could possibly impede their own spiritual development. If the teachers want the best for others, they will teach them to learn for themselves. This is done with spiritual teachings. As we know, real learning of spiritual powers are a natural effect of working with our consciousness, as we do in AYP and other teachings. Kundalini is an aspect of consciousness.

There is another consideration when dealing with spiritual powers as well. There is a saying that "All power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely." I would add that this applies when there is still attachment to power. If people would learn via external means to exhibit and use supernatural powers without transcending their attachment to them on the spiritual path, I think many would be tempted to use such powers for their own benefit at the cost of others. If the military of one country had supernatural powers, they would most likely use them for their own purpose, to defeat the "enemy". It would be a disaster. Even the discovery of nuclear power may be premature for mankind in a spiritual sense. Time will tell.

I will go so far as to say, that as long as people are in the dualistic consciousness, they are not ready for supernatural powers. Such powers would just tempt them to enhance their own egos, at the cost of others. If they apply themselves on the spiritual path, with the intent to transcend the ego, and see the common purpose of life as most precious, then the powers will come when they are ready. Yogani speaks about the outpouring of divine love. Then power will not corrupt. Development of spiritual powers will always be an individual affair. If and when larger parts of humanity transcend the duality consciousness, they will be commonly known, and understood. But such powers can only be properly understood by the consciousness possessing them. When scientists are included here, it will be "scientific" knowledge as well.

Edited by - weaver on Apr 22 2008 03:21:54 AM
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yogibear

409 Posts

Posted - Apr 22 2008 :  08:22:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
weaver wrote:

In this example, if Christi, or someone with the power of healing, would come, put his hand on this person, and make him healed of his outer illness, but the inner condition remained, this would not be a completely satisfactory solution. The illness may come back again later if the real cause is not dealt with. And, the person could be deprived of learning that there is something he needs to address in his consciousness. If someone came and put his hand on the person and healed the subconscious malady as well, it could be a violation of his free will, to have something removed that he has created himself. At least he would be deprived of learning how to overcome it by his own growth and mastery.......But this would take some spiritual attainment on the part of the healer.


This is precisely the explanation Elisabeth Haich gives in her book Yoga and Destiny. It is why Christ didn't heal everyone; only those who had learned their lesson. Of course, he had the necessary spiritual attainment.

quote:
weaver wrote:

Seeing a demonstration of powers can even make people put the demonstrator on a pedestal, like they did with Jesus, which could possibly impede their own spiritual development.


More likely on a cross.

quote:
weaver wrote:

Along with the view that we in essence are our consciousness, I also believe that a large part of what outpictures in our environment and beings, including our physical body, emotions, thoughts etc......Now, if a person has an illness, and it's the outpicturing of a condition of consciousness (possibly deep-seated in the subconscious.........


Haich says that when the candidate for initiation was placed in the sarcophagus in the great pyramid, they were then subjected to experience all the dream pictures existing at the seven main octives of creative energy in their unconscious. If they experienced them as a witness without identifying themselves with the pictures, they achieved cosmic consciousness and passed the test. Then they had to work to achieve it by their own efforts. It was basically a test of identification. However, the moment they identified themselves with one of the pictures, they died and had to reincarnate at that level and continue working out their karma from that point.

Good post, weaver. You echo the above mentioned book on every point.

Best, yb.

Edited by - yogibear on Apr 22 2008 08:32:39 AM
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Steve

276 Posts

Posted - Apr 22 2008 :  09:44:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit Steve's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Weaver,

Thank you Weaver for the wonderful post. Its insight and clarity in framing the discussion serves as a wonderful anchor for all that read it.

What you have described is the difference between being an instrument for Divine Source and Divine Source's most complete and beautiful Love vs a healer. As an instrument, our trust is in Divine Source, not our limited ways, even if our ways are very expanded through Yoga, healing practices, etc. An instrument relies on and allows the Love to flow through them, to radiate outward to touch, bless and help others. This is done without directing or attempting to control the Love in anyway ... as Yogani phrases, a free and true outpicturing and flow of divine Love.

A healer can know many techniques, and through his/her own direction be adept and able to work with those who need healing on many levels. However, a healer, even the best healer's understanding and realization is still limited. Divine Source's Love is complete and knows exactly what is needed on every level of our being and what lessons are most important for the individual being healed, for the underlying consciousness ... and precisely how to do it.

How does one become a better instrument? As Jim says be regular with our practice, brush our teeth everyday letting the cosmic barber trim our hair, live simply and allow the practices to work. In doing so, it becomes easier to surrender our limited ways, habits, beliefs, desires and will. And in this letting go to accept and embrace more of Divine Source's Love and Will in our life ... in who we are. The Love IS complete and available to us in every moment. Divine Source gives the best .... all ways .... always.

Please do not misconstrue what has been said as my being against those in the healing professions. They provide a wonderful service to us all and I have certainly benefitted from their help in my own life. What I am saying is that as a healer grows and becomes more of an instrument allowing the Love to work better, the benefit and results of their service will improve significantly in the most meaningful of ways to both the healer and the healee.

Love and Light,
Steve

Edited by - Steve on Apr 22 2008 11:16:55 AM
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Anthem

1608 Posts

Posted - Apr 22 2008 :  10:53:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

quote:
Thanks for the info.
I had a look at the website. I donít know if I missed it but I couldnít see anything about scientific tests, so I donít know what kind of tests are being carried out.

Most of the discussion on the scientific testing he is involved with is covered in his seminar and I believe touched on in his books. I have since given the book to a friend to read, so can't go back to find more details at the moment, sorry.

From what I recall, the scientific testing involved verifying his ability to affect other people's minds from distance. So they are hooked up to MRI's etc. and he does his healing practice and they record the neurological changes in his patients as they occur.

quote:
It is hard to work out what this guy does when he gives one to one healings, but I suspect he is using spiritual vision to see energetic blockages in peopleís bodies, and then an energetic radiance from the palms of his hands to clear those blockages.


Yes he uses his spiritual vision to look into someone holographically. He doesn't need to touch the person, when I was in the audience and he began his group healing, I was "walloped" with intense energy, it was quite a surprise to me the physicality of it and the intensity, I wasn't expecting to feel it so acutely.

quote:
In his seminars it seems that he is teaching people how to use creative imagination to enhance the healing process in their own bodies. This is something that can be effective, but it largely depends on the level of pranic flow present in someoneís body in the first place. Imagination on itís own can have a powerful effect on the mental and emotional levels in most people, but to make changes on the physical level it works much better when prana is flowing well. The imagination changes the flow of prana (in the pranakosha) and it is the prana that enhances the healing process. At the present time most people have a relatively low level of pranic flow and a high level of blockages in their bodies so the possibilities of using creative imagination to enhance healing on a physical level is quite limited. It will work well for some.


Yes this describes his teaching methods, thanks for the added insight.
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weaver

832 Posts

Posted - Apr 22 2008 :  11:40:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
As an instrument, our trust is in Divine Source, not our limited ways, even if our ways are very expanded through Yoga, healing practices, etc. An instrument relies on and allows the Love to flow through them, to radiate outward to touch, bless and help others.

Hi Steve,

Thank you. I have also enjoyed reading your insightful posts on the forum. You speak beautifully about Divine Source, which I also see as the greater reality of our being, and which we gradually need to open up ourselves to on the spiritual path.

All the best!
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weaver

832 Posts

Posted - Apr 22 2008 :  11:48:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
This is precisely the explanation Elisabeth Haich gives in her book Yoga and Destiny

Thank you Yogibear for referring to this book. It sounds like an interesting book, I may want to buy and read it.

All the best!
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Christi

United Kingdom
3816 Posts

Posted - Apr 23 2008 :  1:26:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi David,

quote:
Randi's value in the process stems largely from his knowledge of conjuring and fraud. It's definitely true that scientists should be involved, but you also need someone who knows conjuring. Scientists tend to be naive in that area. They are a way too trusting -- they don't allow very much for the possibility of deception -- and they don't know how it is done, and will rule it out prematurely because they don't know the 'tricks' of the deception trade.


Yesterday I came across this site by the Campaign for Philosophical Freedom, which gives a fair amount of detail into exactly what Randi is doing and the bogus ways he is going about it. It very clearly and efectively debunks him as a fraud in the arena of investigating supernatural powers:

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/bac...icholls.html

One interesting thing to note is that anyone agreeing to be investigated by Randi or his team has to agree on an experiment to be carried out. Randi and his team are involved in designing the experiment and it cannot be carried out without their agreeing to the parameters of the experement first. Then the person demonstrating the supernatural powers has to sign a legal agreement stating that when a conclusion is reached, they will publicly confess that they possess no supernatural powers.

This is the most unscientific thing I have ever heard and it is more akin to medieval witch-hunting than to modern day science. It doesnít even say, ďIf the results turn out to be negative then...Ē Which just shows the incredible degree of bias built into his system.

If I were to engage in scientific experiments to prove publicly that I possess supernatural abilities, I would devise a number of experiments. If the first one did not give positive results then I would look at the parameters involved, and look at areas where other influences might be affecting the results. Then I would re-devise the experiments, making them progressively more and more accurate, eliminating external influences. This is how all scientists work in the investigation of a hypothesis, and it is the way any serious investigator should work. The legal clause in Randiís method would obviously exclude someone like me from demonstrating supernatural powers under the conditions laid down by him. It would also exclude any serious psychic in their right mind from engaging with him. The clause effectively means that only people who do not actually possess supernatural powers, but want a quick stab at a million dollars would engage with him at all. Some genuine psychics may not read the small print first, and end up in the process by mistake. Most would probably pull out when they realise what is involved.

So I repeat the warning I gave above: If anyone actually possesses or is in the process of developing supernatural powers, do not engage with James Randall at all, whatever happens. From what I learned from this website, I would extend that warning to say that if you are going to be involved in any TV or radio broadcast demonstrating your abilities, get a letter from the broadcasting company first, stating clearly that James Randall Zwinge will not be involved in the show in any way.

Christi
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Christi

United Kingdom
3816 Posts

Posted - Apr 23 2008 :  1:28:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Anthem,

quote:
From what I recall, the scientific testing involved verifying his ability to affect other people's minds from distance. So they are hooked up to MRI's etc. and he does his healing practice and they record the neurological changes in his patients as they occur.



That is the kind of scientific experiment, which could produce effective results to prove the existence of supernatural powers. Presumably he is using an ecstatic radiance from his own being to alter the consciousness of the recipient. It will be interesting to see what the results are. Of course it will be impossible to know if the MRIís are influencing the outcome.

quote:
He doesn't need to touch the person, when I was in the audience and he began his group healing, I was "walloped" with intense energy, it was quite a surprise to me the physicality of it and the intensity, I wasn't expecting to feel it so acutely.


This sounds like another example of ecstatic radiance in action, a bit like the scene at the funeral in the Secrets of Wilder novel. Of course, itís just a novel.



Christi
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