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yogani

USA
5189 Posts

Posted - Apr 07 2008 :  9:48:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi All:

No accusations were intended by the phrase "some fool on a hill."

It is anyone we may listen to beyond the bounds of our good common sense. It is we who create the fool on the hill in how we listen. We can turn the fool into a wise person just as easily, simply by accepting what is true in them and letting go of what is not.

There are no absolutes, though we often crave certainties to the point of distraction. There is wisdom and foolishness in everyone. Life is a never-ending process of separating wheat from chaff. The more abiding inner silence we have, the easier it becomes.

It isn't about the teacher, after all. It is about the student, where the process of human spiritual transformation is occurring. It is good to keep that in mind from both the student's and the teacher's point of view. If all parties approach it like that, everyone will win.

We are all students, and the teacher lives in us too. But, in either case, only to the degree we long for our opening and move in surrender to the flow. All yoga practices are expressions of that dynamic.

The guru is in you.

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Nirodha

New Zealand
86 Posts

Posted - Apr 08 2008 :  02:07:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit Nirodha's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi yogani,

I certainly didn't feel there were any accusations encrypted in the statement. And, if I did I would have said so - I'm usually quite direct. However, I did feel the need to highlight the danger of labeling someone as a "fool on a hill."

One of the reasons I enjoy frequenting this forum is because it's remarkably free of slanderous accusations and character defamation. Most Buddhists forums I've frequented seem like war zones compared to this one.

Kind regards
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 08 2008 :  10:29:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I didn't read Yogani's comment as an accusation aimed towards anyone either. I read rather as a picturesque way of describing what the teacher-learner situation can turn into. And of course, I'm using the image in my own way too (for which Yogani is not responsible), when I point out how, in our capacity both as teachers and learners, we can create a fool on a hill situation by making certain errors.

Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 08 2008 10:36:28 AM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3821 Posts

Posted - Apr 09 2008 :  3:21:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi David,

quote:
Christi, I regret giving you offence and you have some reason to complain because of the way I wrote my response. I don't intend to say you say you're better than someone else, but you've certainly placed him, inadvertently, somewhere on a ladder/scale of diligence and persistence somehow; suggesting if he had more of it, he'd probably be seeing things your way on a certain issue. You've also placed him on a ladder/scale of development behind someone or something else, and even if you place yourself likewise, it's part of the same problem I'm getting at: he's right that you don't know where he's at, or (I'd say myself) what ladder/scale he's even on.

No offence taken at all David. I was simply pointing out that your accusations against me were without foundation. I don’t take offence against unfounded accusations, only against well-founded accusations.

There is a process of development in spiritual practice, which is pretty much the same for everyone. Everyone goes through similar stages in roughly the same order, and expands in very similar ways. So there is a line by which we can track our own progress and that of others. This line comes up in different ways in the AYP main lessons. There is a description of it in the enlightenment milestones lessons and the small volume on pranayama, explaining how purification leads to ecstasy and later to ecstatic radiance. The same lessons explain how silence develops into bliss and the merging of the two leads to the experience of Divine love. There is also a lesson on the unfolding of the heart, describing the process of kundalini awakening as it begins with the heart, later moves through the heart again on its upward assent, and later comes back to the heart as Divine love becomes manifest. Also, the Jnyana yoga book (self-inquiry) by Yogani outlines the line of progression in terms of identity that is taken as a spiritual practitioner advances on the path.

Personally I believe that all these lines of progression tie in with each other, as I mentioned briefly in another thread. In other words there is a direct relationship between the kundalini awakening sequence with chakras opening from bottom to top, and the development of ecstasy and bliss unfolding into divine love, and the progression of the sense of self as it changes with the evolution of the being. There is a great deal of evidence through the experience of spiritual practitioners over thousands of years, that this line of progression is a reality and is the best model that we currently have to work with. We still have some way to go in developing the model into a fully functional coherent model, but I see that as the next major step in the development of understanding the process of human spiritual transformation.

The system of radiant energy lines and the state of the chakra system is directly perceptible to people with spiritual vision. This means that anyone with spiritual sight can “see” how far someone has evolved along the spiritual path. Moreover, the human physical body (including the emotional and mental aspects of a human being) are direct manifestations of the state of the subtle pranic body. This means that everything we do, say, think, feel or write, is a direct result of where we are on the spiritual developmental line.

I don’t see the recognition of a line of progression as a problem at all. In fact, it is a very useful tool that can help many who think they have “got it” and “arrived” to realize that maybe they haven’t at all, and still have a very long way to go. All you have to do is work out where you are on the model, and you can see how much ground lies ahead. It could avoid a lot of “false peaks” scenarios.

Just to mention, I didn’t “inadvertently” place Nirodha on a scale of diligence and persistence regarding purification practices. I did it quite deliberately. Purification practices develop a particular aspect of the human system (the subtle nervous system), and directly cultivate the expansion of ecstasy into ecstatic radiance and bring about the manifestation of the divine body, a body of radiant light, which is capable of seeing everything in the universe as a manifestation of radiant light. The discussion was over whether Nirodha could benefit from these practices or not, or whether they would be superfluous, given his ability to abide in Samadhi for extended periods. It is not true that I know nothing about him as he has been contributing to this forum for a while, so I was able to base the advice I gave on a certain amount of knowledge.

quote:
And how can one interpret oneself as becoming superman, and not be inflated?



This is probably the biggest potential difficulty with AYP, and one that has been brought up before. It has been solved throughout history by the traditional Guru/ disciple roles. When people are fully surrendered to a Guru, and do everything they are told, it is very easy for the Guru to instil humility in the disciple when it is needed. In AYP there is much less of a Guru/ disciple role and so that benefit is largely lost. Yogani seems to be placing his hopes in the power of the cultivation of silence to bring about humility. It is early days, but I would say that so far, in the vast majority of cases it seems to be working well. It certainly isn’t a sure thing though, as history has proven many times, and we all need to keep our guard up.


Christi
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yogibear

409 Posts

Posted - Apr 10 2008 :  07:40:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Christi wrote:

Personally I believe that all these lines of progression tie in with each other, as I mentioned briefly in another thread. In other words there is a direct relationship between the kundalini awakening sequence with chakras opening from bottom to top, and the development of ecstasy and bliss unfolding into divine love, and the progression of the sense of self as it changes with the evolution of the being.


Well said, Christi.

quote:
Christi wrote:

Purification practices develop a particular aspect of the human system (the subtle nervous system), and directly cultivate the expansion of ecstasy into ecstatic radiance and bring about the manifestation of the divine body, a body of radiant light, which is capable of seeing everything in the universe as a manifestation of radiant light.


Elisabeth Haich calls it the "diamond body" and states that this is one of the main results of practicing the exercises she teaches in her book, Sexual Energy and Yoga.

She wrote her books for the public because she stated that all indications pointed to it being the time when the truth would be
"shouted from the roof tops" and and made freely available to ever last individual.

I find that she and Yogani validate themselves over and over again and express the same truths rather routinely.

Best, yb.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3821 Posts

Posted - Apr 12 2008 :  04:18:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Steve

quote:
Steve wrote:
Hi Christi,

Great post ...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally I believe that all these lines of progression tie in with each other, as I mentioned briefly in another thread. In other words there is a direct relationship between the kundalini awakening sequence with chakras opening from bottom to top, and the development of ecstasy and bliss unfolding into divine love, and the progression of the sense of self as it changes with the evolution of the being. There is a great deal of evidence through the experience of spiritual practitioners over thousands of years, that this line of progression is a reality and is the best model that we currently have to work with. We still have some way to go in developing the model into a fully functional coherent model, but I see that as the next major step in the development of understanding the process of human spiritual transformation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In one respect, I would like to suggest that the model presented be expanded to include other possibilities in addition to bottom-to-top chakra kundalini development. There are mixtures and various combinations to the timing sequence in the unfoldment equation for each of us often dependent on our own nature-inclinations and the particular means of development and practices we choose to follow and how we live our daily lives.

For example, it is possible for the downpouring of love from above to flow down through the crown into the chakras, heart, etc. and work in concert with the cultivation of inner silence and the rising kundalini to introduce the awakening of the heart, its sweetness and beauty into daily life, along with the resultant unfolding of divine love, ecstasy and bliss altering the timing of the equation.

There have also been discussions about Aurobindo (Integral Yoga) and Ramana Maharshi (right side of the heart, amrita nada) that also infer variations to the strictly bottom-to-top model. I am not disputing the bottom-to-top chakra development via the kundalini, just that there are other things that can be going on simultaneously which could alter the timing sequence of the "progression of the sense of self as it changes with the evolution of the being" you spoke of.

Love and Light,
Steve


I'm glad you brought that up. Obviously the bottom to top kundalini model is not nescessarily the only valid model that we have to work with and we have to look at all possibilities.

I hadn’t included the “top down” approach to kundalini awakening largely because I am suspicious about its validity. As I see it, it works like this: Kundalini is stored in the Kanda chakra between muladhara and svadhisthana chakras where it lays in latent form until awakened. But even before awakening there is a small continual release of kundalini energy, which keeps the physical body alive. The energy rises up the central channel as a “hollow pipe” going up around the crown, up into the air several feet above the top of the head, and then descending down again through the centre of the crown (no longer as a hollow pipe) and coming down into the right side of the heart. Before kundalini awakening this flow exists but is so small that it is normally never noticed. After awakening there is often an initial strong surge of energy up the central channel, to one of the spiritual chakras (no.s 4 to 7), or even up into the air above the head. After the initial surge there is a very gradual ascent up through each chakra, until the whole flow becomes continuous from root to 8th chakra and back down to the heart.

I believe that “top down” kundalini practices aim to strengthen the descending current first, and to simultaneously open and purify the higher chakras before awakening the kundalini from the kanda chakra near the root. As such it is not really a digression from the standard model of spiritual transformation, but is rather a technique to bring about that same transformation more effectively. Whether it succeeds in doing so is another matter. Many people are coming to this site after having experienced a lot of difficulties through using “top down” kundalini practices, especially through using practices to directly open the crown chakra before kundalini has been awakened.

I simply haven’t seen enough evidence that “top down” approaches are safe when used by large numbers of people. I also haven’t seen any evidence that they really represent a different model of human spiritual awakening.

As far as Sri Aurobindo is concerned, even that great sage said in a letter to a disciple that the descending current would activate the kundalini from the root causing it to rise. In other words a strengthened descending current would cause a kundalini awakening from the root. Sri Aurobindo kept a very detailed diary for many years during his own spiritual transformation, which was later published in two volumes, and he certainly never mentioned using any kundalini practices, whether “bottom to top”, or “top down”. It is also not clear what practices he advised his own disciples to use which could be considered “top down” kundalini practices.

Christi
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 12 2008 :  11:57:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Christi said:
No offence taken at all David. I was simply pointing out that your accusations against me were without foundation. I don’t take offence against unfounded accusations, only against well-founded accusations


Tip: if someone makes some conciliatory gestures, that's a good time to go into maximum-grace mode and not try to grab further capital. I don't think it's fair to me to say I was making unfounded accusations. They were neither accusations, nor entirely unfounded. It's more complex than that. And you certainly were offended-- the black-eye emoticon and the stern lecture are always good indicators. But I've already dwelt as much as I want to on the matter of presumed accusations and their falseness. Back to the matter at hand.

Christi said:
There is a process of development in spiritual practice, which is pretty much the same for everyone. Everyone goes through similar stages in roughly the same order, and expands in very similar ways. So there is a line by which we can track our own progress and that of others.


I would say, not really, particularly what I have colored in blue. There is one question about whether it is true at all that everyone goes through the stages in even roughly the same order, and even if so, further questions about our ability to know what this order is. A major clue here is that different people from different traditions will 'order' people entirely differently, according to what their tradition has told them that the order is. For some it is 'grades of samadhi'. Because of the human tendancy towards confirmation bias, people in those traditions will become dead certain that that order is the way things are.

We still have some way to go in developing the model into a fully functional coherent model, but I see that as the next major step in the development of understanding the process of human spiritual transformation.

Yes, I would agree with that. When the model develops better, I would also say we'll discover that it wasn't at all as simple as thought in the sense of providing a 'level' for a person. Some kinds of development are likely to be independent -- it may be in some ways like tuning (independent) keys on a piano -- and not quite as simple as that either -- the keys may not all be quite independent. And I think it will be understood then that people like Krishnamurti were not 'the final flower' at all.

Even if you could do it as accurately as you think (and I don't think you can), I don't think it is a good idea to 'rank' other people on the forum, to 'place' them in terms of spiritual development or purification. You may observe Yogani (whose knowledge of yoga I think you view as being greater than your own) clearly avoiding that kind of presumption. Better to confine that kind of thing to people who have consented to hand the guru role to you. Avoiding it here will be more helpful to everyone.

I said:
And how can one interpret oneself as becoming superman, and not be inflated?

Christi said:
This is probably the biggest potential difficulty with AYP, and one that has been brought up before. It has been solved throughout history by the traditional Guru/ disciple roles. When people are fully surrendered to a Guru, and do everything they are told, it is very easy for the Guru to instil humility in the disciple when it is needed. In AYP there is much less of a Guru/ disciple role and so that benefit is largely lost. Yogani seems to be placing his hopes in the power of the cultivation of silence to bring about humility. It is early days, but I would say that so far, in the vast majority of cases it seems to be working well. It certainly isn’t a sure thing though, as history has proven many times, and we all need to keep our guard up.


The real deficit in the guru-disciple system with regards to humility is that there isn't much to keep the guru in a state of humility, and in fact, there is much to knock him out of it. (Cue in a long parade of 20-th century illustrious guru-narcissists.) And there's the rub, with AYP and all, in which you are your own guru.

I have offered a more modern solution to this problem. It's simple -- we simply understand that we are not becoming superman after all. If we have any egoic dreams of being the star of the yoga circus, we see the circus for what it is, and we give those dreams up. We have a more proportionate view of what enlightenment is, and of what we are becoming as enlightenment arises. We understand that our 'gurus' and those great yogic public figures were not superman either. We come to understand the mechanisms whereby our images of these people are inflated, and what we are really doing when we dream of being like them.

Key to it all is that we understand ourselves in a realistic, non-inflated way, and likewise those we aspire to be like, and likewise we know the limits of the yogic culture in which we are immersed. We must live in the truth about ourselves and others and our relationships should be based on that.

Yogani seems to be placing his hopes in the power of the cultivation of silence to bring about humility.

Inner silence will help with this problem for sure, but, as you say, nothing presents any guarantee. Inner silence will help in the same way that good diet promotes resistance to diseases -- but good diet is never a good reason not to remove plague-rats from one's house. And it's becoming increasingly clear to me that the expectation of becoming superman through enlightenment is a metaphorical plague rat, that people cherish and want to keep as a pet. That much beloved spiritual figures before us have kept and cherished as a pet. The expectation of becoming a sort of superman is probably the biggest hook for narcissism imaginable. (Can anyone imagine a bigger hook? If you can, tell me. ) Would the truth really contain an enormous hook for narcissism? Look for the answer to that question inside your soul. Know the truth, and the truth shall set you free, as they say.

This more correct view of enlightenment and people, without the great hook for narcissism, is a foundational stone for anyone on the journey without a guru. ( Maybe it's not as fundamental if one has a good guru, but I think the truth is always better. ) It actually becomes more critical as the yogic journey really starts to get underway. If not much is happening, there isn't much happening to get inflated about. Remember those words, 'The stone the builders rejected has become the corner stone'. At some point it becomes too late to fit this corrective stone into one's world-view (without much pain and turmoil); there will eventually be too much emotional investment in the illusory self-image and dropping it will be too painful so it will be retained -- who wants to let the cops come in and flush the drugs down the toilet when the party has 10,000 people in it and is really buzzing? Better to flush the drugs down the toilet before the party really gets going. Too many yogis have fallen in one way or another, and it's time to take a cold critical look at the stilts they got up onto and whether we should really be so enthusiastic to get up on them ourselves.

This stuff has been brewing in my mind for years, and I've just started to articulate some of it properly. Sometime I'll organize it all into a coherent message.

Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 13 2008 12:25:45 AM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3821 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2008 :  11:07:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi David,

quote:
Christi said:
No offence taken at all David. I was simply pointing out that your accusations against me were without foundation. I don’t take offence against unfounded accusations, only against well-founded accusations

Tip: if someone makes some conciliatory gestures, that's a good time to go into maximum-grace mode and not try to grab further capital. I don't think it's fair to me to say I was making unfounded accusations. They were neither accusations, nor entirely unfounded. It's more complex than that. And you certainly were offended-- the black-eye emoticon and the stern lecture are always good indicators. But I've already dwelt as much as I want to on the matter of presumed accusations and their falseness. Back to the matter at hand.


No David, it was an unfounded accusation, just one in a long line of unfounded accusations that you have made against me on this forum. It would simply take me too long to list them all. And no, I was not offended, and I let you know that. What you interpreted as a “stern lecture” was actually just a small piece of friendly advice. In fact your statement above that I was in fact offended when I had already told you that I was not implies either that I was lying, or that you know how I feel better than I do. The first would constitute yet another unfounded accusation, and the second would seem rather absurd.

But I do think others might take offence if they found themselves on the receiving end of similar unfounded accusations of the kind that you repeatedly level towards me. For that reason, I think you should look very carefully at what you write before you post it.

quote:
The real deficit in the guru-disciple system with regards to humility is that there isn't much to keep the guru in a state of humility, and in fact, there is much to knock him out of it. (Cue in a long parade of 20-th century illustrious guru-narcissists.) And there's the rub, with AYP and all, in which you are your own guru.


The Guru is kept in line by the fact that they are constantly serving their disciples. There are thousands upon thousands of spiritual teachers in the world, working in this way, and it is an incredibly successful system. It is thanks to this system that spiritual traditions have survived, and expanded over thousands of years. I have heard about a few cases (30 or 40 at most) where the Guru/ disciple system has gone wrong, and the Guru has abused their position (and their disciples). Almost all of the cases I have heard of, which have involved abuse of power, have happened in the United States of America. It looks to me as if this is more an American problem rather than a basic problem with the system, which otherwise works extremely well. There have been a handful of cases in India where the Guru system has been abused. But given that there are tens of thousands of spiritual teachers in India, this is more a problem with a few individual teachers, not a problem with the system.

quote:
Yes, I would agree with that. When the model develops better, I would also say we'll discover that it wasn't at all as simple as thought in the sense of providing a 'level' for a person. Some kinds of development are likely to be independent -- it may be in some ways like tuning (independent) keys on a piano -- and not quite as simple as that either -- the keys may not all be quite independent. And I think it will be understood then that people like Krishnamurti were not 'the final flower' at all.


I don’t see things developing in this way at all. What I see is quite the opposite. As increasing knowledge is coming to light in the field of human spiritual development, we are seeing more and more similarities, both between different spiritual paths, and in the way that humans develop along those spiritual paths. At very advanced levels humans are basically an expression of the same thing, and what they say is fundamentally the same, only the languages they use are different. Yogibear pointed this out above with regard to Yogani and Haich, but the same would be true for anyone from any spiritual tradition at that level of divine illumination.

quote:
Even if you could do it as accurately as you think (and I don't think you can), I don't think it is a good idea to 'rank' other people on the forum, to 'place' them in terms of spiritual development or purification. You may observe Yogani (whose knowledge of yoga I think you view as being greater than your own) clearly avoiding that kind of presumption. Better to confine that kind of thing to people who have consented to hand the guru role to you. Avoiding it here will be more helpful to everyone.


Actually, Yogani does it all the time. Every time he writes an email to someone, or replies to someone’s query on the forum, he pitches his reply to suit that person at the level that they are at. He wouldn’t give an advanced, complex reply to someone for whom it wouldn’t have much meaning, and, likewise, he wouldn’t give a reply suitable for a beginner to someone who is a fair way down the spiritual path already. In fact, his skill at being able to correctly pitch his level of reply is an indication of how far down the line he himself is. Any good teacher would do this, not just in the field of spiritual practices, but in any field. Many people in the forum do this also when giving advice to others, and we all get better at it, the more we cultivate inner silence through our practices.

quote:
And it's becoming increasingly clear to me that the expectation of becoming superman through enlightenment is a metaphorical plague rat, that people cherish and want to keep as a pet. That much beloved spiritual figures before us have kept and cherished as a pet.
The expectation of becoming a sort of superman is probably the biggest hook for narcissism imaginable. (Can anyone imagine a bigger hook? If you can, tell me. ) Would the truth really contain an enormous hook for narcissism?


We don’t get to choose what enlightenment is. All we get to do is to surrender to the process of spiritual transformation. How things unfold is not determined in any way by us. In fact, increadible things do happen to people along the path, powers do come and this is one of the greatest dangers that all spiritual practitioners face. There is an inbuilt hook for narcissism, if the spiritual practitioner thinks that the power that is coming to them is somehow the result of their own endeavours, rather than a result of surrendering to a power that is greater than their own individualism. This is the point where most gurus who have gone astray have slipped up. And all it took was one stray thought which they chose to believe in.


Christi
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Christi

United Kingdom
3821 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2008 :  11:20:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Steve,

quote:
Hi Christi,

I am in agreement with most of what you have said ...

My point really was not suggesting a top down approach to kundalini awakening vs a bottom up but that there were also other valid combinations that are occurring in individuals across the planet. And perhaps more so, that the Heart, the atman, can be brought into the unfoldment equation at an earlier stage either singularly or in concert with a path like AYP, or a non-AYP bottom-to-top approach, top-to-bottom approach or any combination thereof. Doing so can change the timing sequence of the consciousness unfoldment equation.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I see it, it works like this: Kundalini is stored in the Kanda chakra between muladhara and svadhisthana chakras where it lays in latent form until awakened. But even before awakening there is a small continual release of kundalini energy, which keeps the physical body alive. The energy rises up the central channel as a “hollow pipe” going up around the crown, up into the air several feet above the top of the head, and then descending down again through the centre of the crown (no longer as a hollow pipe) and coming down into the right side of the heart. Before kundalini awakening this flow exists but is so small that it is normally never noticed. After awakening there is often an initial strong surge of energy up the central channel, to one of the spiritual chakras (no.s 4 to 7), or even up into the air above the head. After the initial surge there is a very gradual ascent up through each chakra, until the whole flow becomes continuous from root to 8th chakra and back down to the heart.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is interesting that you mentioned this process because just a couple of days ago I was reading some of Ramana Maharshi’s writings online and he was describing the ‘yogic’ path of development vs the ‘jnana’ path of development. The ‘yogic’ path being very similar to what you have described vs Ramana’s definition of ‘jnana’ being to move directly into the Heart. For me, personally, the term ‘jnana’ better describes the actual self-inquiry methods prescribed by Ramana Maharshi which by themselves were never that effective in moving me into the Heart. I am in full agreement with Yogani that the cultivation of inner silence is a practical prelude to that kind of method having any meaningful effect. However, if we go beyond the actual method in Ramana Maharshi’s writing to the process he is describing which is ‘entering directly into the Heart’ (not Anahata chakra) and if it were possible to truly enter into the Heart through some means earlier than that presented by the bottom-to-top yogic model, it could alter the timing sequence of the model and its corresponding states of unfolding consciousness.

From my own experience, I practiced AYP (deep meditation including mantra enhancements, spinal breathing, samyama) for several years which spanned a time both before and after my direct introduction to the Inner Heart along with the activation of the process of Divine Source's Love working in two ways, one flowing downward from above through the crown into the sushumna, chakras and the Heart and one flowing directly outward radiating from the core of the Heart (ie. the Inner Heart) along the passageway through the Heart and whole Self. Actually there is a merging of the two flows and they work together in concert as one.

The working of the Heart and the Love provided additional benefit enhancing both my practice and life. I combined the two practices (AYP and what I described) in a specific manner which was very helpful for me. I believe the results it produced describe a variation to the bottom-to-top model with a number of things occurring simultaneously. It effected not only the nature and quality of the kundalini development and arising ecstatic conductivity but also introduced the workings of Divine Source's Love and the unfoldment of the Heart into my life in a more complete way earlier in the equation. Along with the inner silence that was being cultivated by AYP deep meditation there was also a new found sweetness, a joy and happiness, and a love that radiated outward that was not there before, at least, not at the same depth and quality. In my everyday life, it had a directness, presence and accessibility that went beyond what samyama practice had provided by itself prior to introduction of the Inner Heart and the Love working in this way.

For me, my consciousness and neuro-physiology were coarse enough that I required specific help to move in this direction. But as is evident by many postings in this forum, similar Heart-Love awakenings are beginning to occur naturally for more and more. For many of you, deeper and more complete than my own. The spiritual environment we live in is changing, the possibilities of today are different than they were twenty years ago, even five years ago. Divine Source’s Love is working at deeper and deeper levels for everyone. As time goes on, supported by the Love I feel many will begin moving into and making the transition to the Heart in a very natural way earlier in the yogic equation than that offered by the traditional bottom-to-top kundalini model.

That was my primary reason for posting my initial reply. Not to promote a specific method bottom-up, top-down, etc. but to say there are now many individuals awakening across the planet and I feel for some of them this awakening may unfold in a way which could include variations to the timing sequence of the bottom-to-top model.

Love and Light,
Steve

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Edited by - Steve on Apr 13 2008 03:38:51 AM



Lovely to hear about your experiences with the sacred heart, thanks for sharing that.

I agree that there could be a number of different possible scenarios that could play out with the unfoldment of human spiritual transformation between different individuals engaged in the process. In a scientific sense it would be a matter of examining many cases, spread out geographically across the globe and then drawing conclusions from there. I am sure this would be one of the research projects that could be assumed by any University, which sets up a department dedicated to human spiritual transformation.

It is not clear to me though that what you describe above regarding the heart differs in a fundamental way from the classic bottom-to-top kundalini model. In the model, which I described above, an individual can start wherever they like. They could start (as Gopi Krishna did) by meditating on the crown chakra. The resulting sequence of transformation would be the same (kundalini awakening from bottom to top), although it could be a bumpy ride along the way. An individual could also start by meditating on the sacred Heart (as Sufis do), and bringing the light down from above. I would suggest that the basic process of transformation would still be fundamentally the same, although there could be a stronger sense of love and universal harmony during the journey. There could also be an added element of danger.

In the simplified model that I presented briefly above, I rather left out the heart until the very end. That was really just to save time and space. A more complex examination of the role of the heart in the process of kundalini awakening would show that it does get involved at many stages: beginning, middle and end, as you describe.

Yogani describes the whole process very eloquently here:

http://www.aypsite.org/201.html

Yes, I have heard also that "the heart is last to open." But I think it is more involved than that. In the lessons, we begin with the heart because desire is the engine that drives all yoga. Desire that is intensified and directed toward spiritual unfoldment is bhakti,
and this is all heart work. Practices feed back into the heart,
increasing bhakti every step along the way. So the heart is opening
all the time, along with the rest of the nervous system. Then
ecstatic conductivity begins to rise and we are melting in love
inside in the face of so much ecstasy and rising inner sensuality –
more heart opening. Finally, when shiva (silence) and shakti
(ecstasy) are merging and we finally go directly to the crown, then
it all pours down and the heart goes all the way into overflowing
pure divine love. Maybe that last step is what is meant by "the heart is last to open." But the truth is, yoga begins with the heart, the heart is opening every step of the way, and it ends with the heart, as we finally become an expression of divine love on earth.



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Steve

276 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2008 :  1:33:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit Steve's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

ha ha you have learned my ways well .. I keep opting in and out of the discussion but you have politely kept me involved ... Thanks for your patience with my posting and deleting ... much appreciated.

A great description from Yogani. It is eloquent and inspirational and most certainly adds clarity to our own discussion.
quote:
It is not clear to me though that what you describe above regarding the heart differs in a fundamental way from the classic bottom-to-top kundalini model. In the model, which I described above, an individual can start wherever they like. They could start (as Gopi Krishna did) by meditating on the crown chakra. The resulting sequence of transformation would be the same (kundalini awakening from bottom to top), although it could be a bumpy ride along the way. An individual could also start by meditating on the sacred Heart (as Sufis do), and bringing the light down from above. I would suggest that the basic process of transformation would still be fundamentally the same, although there could be a stronger sense of love and universal harmony during the journey. There could also be an added element of danger.

In the simplified model that I presented briefly above, I rather left out the heart until the very end. That was really just to save time and space. A more complex examination of the role of the heart in the process of kundalini awakening would show that it does get involved at many stages: beginning, middle and end, as you describe.
I think you have said it in the last paragraph. The Heart can get involved at many stages. Moreover, depending on one's bhakti, type of practices, etc. 'the depth and completeness' that one enters into the Heart can also vary and be introduced at earlier stages that does not always directly correlate with the traditional yogic model of the kundalini first rising first up all the chakras and then finally descending back down to the right side of the Heart. It is possible to be more fully in the Heart at earlier stages in the process 'with the atman and the Love' taking a more direct role in guiding the follow-on unfoldment of the kundalini and consciousness vs the ego-mind-will. This point is important and fundamental and can have a big impact on the process of re-awakening to who we are. Of course, it is not 100% one way or the other. But to the extent that we truly are in the Heart and letting the Love work the nature and ease of the process can change significantly with the timing sequence of the stages also varying somewhat from a more traditional bottom-to-top model.

Christi, in a very clear well spoken manner, you have laid the groundwork for further discussion. I was attempting to build upon that based on the direct experience of my own condition before and after being introduced to the Inner Heart, having it take a bigger role in directing the unfoldment process while also learning how to let the Love work better without as much interference from my eqo-mind-will-desires. Of course, this is all being said from the current state of my limited understanding.

Love and Light,
Steve
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2008 :  10:32:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Christi said:
The Guru is kept in line by the fact that they are constantly serving their disciples.


That's like saying that the gurus are kept behaving well by the fact that they are behaving well.

Almost all of the cases I have heard of, which have involved abuse of power, have happened in the United States of America.

A bigger awareness of the incidence of abuse does not necessarily mean there is less of it. If one were to look naively at world history, one might think that child abuse is a relatively modern phenomenon, with much more of it in recent decades. Much more likely, it is just becoming better known as a problem and hopefully there is even less of it for that. The western world has gotten good, and is getting better, at bring abuses to the fore. It's more rights-oriented, and less likely to assume that one who claims to have been victimized by the Pure One is merely malicious. I don't believe that the incidence of abuse in India by gurus is less than in the US -- I expect it's probably higher actually, but it is more likely in that culture that it will be swept under the rug. Like it or not, the police and many courts in India can still be bought for the right fee. There are some utterly egregious cases of major gurus in India who would be in prison long ago if they lived in the US. But I don't want this to be a criticism of India, or even a dismissal of the guru tradition. What I'm saying is that inflation of the guru is a problem, and produces major risks of failures. It does not guarantee failure, nor are we guaranteed to be free of failure if we eliminate it. It's just problemmatic and risky. I say it's time to leave it behind.

At very advanced levels humans are basically an expression of the same thing, and what they say is fundamentally the same, only the languages they use are different.

That's probably true, but it doesn't work against what I said in any way. I'm talking about the business of ranking human beings in an order of spiritual development. That is the stuff on which they will differ -- if they get into that business at all, and hopefully they won't.

Actually, Yogani does it all the time. Every time he writes an email to someone, or replies to someone’s query on the forum, he pitches his reply to suit that person at the level that they are at.

When you say 'it', you've switched the 'it'. You won't find him doing what I've talked about. You will find him doing what you've just called 'it', as if they are the same thing. But I think we've talked enough about that. This other stuff is more interesting.

There is an inbuilt hook for narcissism, if the spiritual practitioner thinks that the power that is coming to them is somehow the result of their own endeavours, rather than a result of surrendering to a power that is greater than their own individualism.

Good! You recognize the enormous hook for narcissism.

surrendering to a power that is greater than their own individualism

Aha, here we may have the problem: unfortunately, some act of 'surrendering' to a power that is greater than ones own doesn't eliminate the hook for narcissism at all. You can be surrendered to 'the Father' and still be on a narcissistic trip. Narcissistic issues are rooted in the way we perceive ourselves versus others, not in the relationship between us and 'the Father'. It is not difficult for a narcissistic Prince to be surrendered to the King, especially his internal King! In fact, arguably, messianism is by and large 'spiritualized' narcissism. I'm sticking to it: believing that one is becoming superman is an enormous hook for narcissism, even if one is successful at being 'surrendered', not to mention the much more likely scenario of not being entirely successful at being surrendered (or of being self-deceiving at how surrendered one is).

I believe the truth doesn't really have any hooks for narcissism at all. To the extent to which the Yoga tradition has this hook, it needs reform because it is departing from the truth -- and, yes, people who have learned from it are mistaught. ( Generally, Buddhism doesn't offer that particular hook -- or not to the same degree, though with exceptions in some traditions.) Yoga is for purifying you and bringing you to where you should be. It is not for making you superman, and does not make you superman. It does not increase your rank relative to other people either. It hasn't done it for those who have walked the path before us, and won't do it for us. Neither, BTW, does it make one's yogic institution super-institution (with all the problems that go with inflated institutional self-image).

Just a BTW, I'm not sure where exactly Yogani stands on these superpowers. One of his own lessons on them does suggest not to expect them of him (at least any time soon!). And perhaps his views on them are undecided and evolving, I can only guess. So I'm not calling him up as support for my point-of-view here. But I do like one of his terms from one of his books: his concept of the 'flight of fancy', getting in the way on the spiritual path. I would say that anyone on an expectation of becoming superman is on one of the biggest flights of fancy imaginable. And flights of fancy are a major problem: many individuals and institutions fell, and the problem could be traced largely to the fact that they were actually on an enormous 'flight of fancy' from which they would not brook being pulled down. The problem is not confined to yoga as so-named, it occurs in every setting in which the power and grandness of the 'enlightened' is overblown.

I offer these insights as an aid on the path. The more difficult these realities are to swallow, the more likely they are to be needed.

Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 14 2008 11:08:26 PM
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yogibear

409 Posts

Posted - Apr 15 2008 :  08:34:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi David,

Call me narcissistic, but I disagree with the last part.

quote:
David wrote:

Yoga is for purifying you and bringing you to where you should be. It is not for making you superman, and does not make you superman. It does not increase your rank relative to other people either.


I think it is both. It is the development of all the powers inherent in all human beings (and when this is achieved the person would be considered super human by normal homo sap standards) parallel with completely developed personal ethics, based on impersonal objectivity and not personal subjectivity. I believe this can be achieved. (personally ).

And I think this is what Yoga is for.

I think the best example of this is the myth of Jesus. He was super human. And he was completely ethical and impersonal according to the story.

Anybody who displays a moral lapse is simply not a completely free human being. They may be more enlightened, but they are not completely free, because if they were, they would have no compulsion to behave unethically based on personal gain of some type. So they have a blind spot and are still bound to the wheel of karma.

And in the real world, this does create rank relative to other people.

It is obvious that there are people who are just plain more capable than others and there is a pecking order wherever you go, based on this fact. That pecking order may be based on whatever yardstick a particular group of people value. It could be ethical capability, expressive capability, get things done capability, fearlessness capability, love capability, self control capability, whatever, and then people rank the individual and they take their place in the group pecking order. It happens here. It happens everywhere.

Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan come to mind as examples of relative ranking by humans. Obviously, they are not ranked by their personality traits here. But they must still display a reasonable degree of ethics or else their ranking will be decreased.

So I think Yoga does make you super human (eventually) and it does increase your rank relative to other people in a real world sense based on a yardstick of actual development of those traits we all inherently possess and value.

Best, yb.
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Sparkle

Ireland
1457 Posts

Posted - Apr 15 2008 :  10:27:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit Sparkle's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
YB said: and then people rank the individual and they take their place in the group pecking order. It happens here. It happens everywhere


Maybe this is key: That it is other people who do the ranking and not the individual being ranked, just a thought.
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 15 2008 :  10:33:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yogibear said:
Call me narcissistic, but I disagree with the last part.


Ok, you're a narcissistic son of a gun. Seriously though, I don't find I'm disagreeing with you so much. There are a lot of nuances in this matter. If one believes in past lives, then Yoga can be seen as an acceleration of a long-term process of perfection.

I also agree with what you said about varying levels of skill and abilities and the status that comes with that in various groups.

This gets problemmatic in yoga only under certain conditions. It's a matter of right perspective -- there are various conditions under which inflation sets in. If you think you're becoming superman in this life, and that yoga is going to do it for you, I'm sticking with what I said -- you're in serious danger of being on a narcissistic trip. If you see yourself, and everyone else, on the way to being superman in the long term (after many lives) I can't see much risk in that. The narcissistic problems are in the way you see yourself to be different to the people around you, in an imbalanced way. That's also very likely to get in the way of your spiritual progress.

There is narcissism and there is also 'inflation' -- merely getting an overblown self-image or self-regard for whatever reason. Narcissism always brings inflation with it but I think you can probably be inflated without being particularly narcissistic (perhaps this could happen if your status was over-confirmed by the people around you, or other circumstances). I know an examples of teachers whom I think were inflated, but I don't see any reason to suspect that they are particularly narcissistic. If a person is inflated, their learning process is messed up, and there is a good chance that they will depart from their domain of competence if they teach.

I'm also sticking to what I said that yoga didn't make a superman out of the earlier yogis we know of. There are many reasons I believe this. The spiritual traditions are hyperbolic about their teachers, and paint them as supermen, larger than life. Did it make them great? Oh yeah, it made them great! But superman, no -- they very much had limits. I believe that they too, if on their way to becoming superman, would only become it eventually on the many-lives model.


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weaver

832 Posts

Posted - Apr 15 2008 :  11:31:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
The aspects of "spiritual development" in humans are very multi-faceted. (I will use this term here fully acknowledging that the spiritual path obviously can be seen as "un-development" as well.) As I see it, the essence of our being is our consciousness. Spiritual development can be seen in terms of consciousness being able to be aware of and handle more and more foundational and basic aspects of Reality, and being able to release itself from attachment from and identification with the more specialized aspects of ourselves and our immediate environment, including the physical body and the fields of thinking, feeling, sense of ego, etc. that we use for expression in this world. With this process comes awareness of and abilities to handle aspects of Reality, or siddhis, that are outside of what most call "normal", only sometimes labeled "super-normal" because these abilities are still rare and unusual. At some point they may be labeled very normal and usual. I also believe that there is no limit or end to (human) spiritual development.

It is obvious that spiritual development is not the same for any two (human or other) beings. However, because there are so many aspects of it, and because we are dealing with consciousness, which can not be measured objectively by any outer means, I don't think it's helpful to try to rank or categorize people spiritually. (I'm not hereby indicating that anybody in this forum has ranked people this way.) Yes, people's outer expressions can be indications of their consciousness or development, sometimes quite revealing, but only in the aspects that are expressed. Another reason it's not helpful to rank people spiritually is that it's too tempting to include value judgment on people when doing it, and that is not going to help anybody spiritually. It will only promote the sense of separation between people.

Considering spiritual teachers, or gurus, I believe that such can be of great value for someone on the spiritual path when it comes to providing teaching and inspiration. At the same time, because each one's spiritual path is unique, and we all work on specific aspects of our own consciousness, there will never be one particular teacher that is right for everyone all the time. On the other hand, a spiritual teacher will be right for a particular student at a particular time, while that student is working on particular aspects of his/her own spiritual path. I also believe that nobody has reached any ultimate state of consciousness, or spiritual development, guru or not, but that there nevertheless can be a lot of assistance that spiritual teachers can provide for others, again that meets their particular needs. Much can be learned even when gurus have specific "imperfections", and sometimes gurus may even display these for the purpose of students learning. And, valuable lessons can also be learned by having been subject to "imperfections" in spiritual teachers. On the other hand, of course, damage can also be done by unscrupulous individuals setting themselves up as teachers and deceiving others.

Finally, if we look at experiences, outer manifestations, or "abilities", when considering people's spiritual development, it may be tempting to place too much value on these manifestations themselves. Yes, for a physical being it could possibly be very very nice to be able to fly at will. Or have supernormal power. But only for someone identifying themselves as a physical being. If consciousness has transcended this identification, there may be other things that are considered far more valuable.

Edited by - weaver on Apr 15 2008 11:44:46 PM
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VIL

USA
586 Posts

Posted - Apr 15 2008 :  11:47:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I loved your wisdom, weaver; par excellence:



VIL
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Divineis

Canada
420 Posts

Posted - Apr 16 2008 :  01:46:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
So I think Yoga does make you super human (eventually) and it does increase your rank relative to other people in a real world sense based on a yardstick of actual development of those traits we all inherently possess and value.




ahaha, i found this kinda halarious. I don't see how this point of view is possible when talking of yoga and development relating to enlightenment. It's almost like saying: His greatness is measured, by how little he measures hahaha.

I think it's awesome though, it's like the paradox of it all. I mean, there's no problem with your pt of view, go into it fully, and you'll find just as much enlightenment there as anywhere. wait, I just contradicted myself. Oh well. hehe

Traits we value ehh? hmmm, what if we value no traits. Not no traits, but like... no traits.

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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 16 2008 :  10:59:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Great job Weaver. I was asking if someone would come and put this stuff better than I was putting it and you did.
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Steve

276 Posts

Posted - Apr 16 2008 :  11:00:36 AM  Show Profile  Visit Steve's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks weaver ... very well put ... a great contribution to this discussion.

Divineis ... what can I say ... you crack me up ... I love the way you put things ... helps me to let go of being so serious and tightly wrapped ....

Love and Light,
Steve
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Divineis

Canada
420 Posts

Posted - Apr 16 2008 :  10:41:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
haha, thanks Steve :). My goal is to unwrap all who cross my path, bit by bit. Starting with me of course though... I'm a selfish *******, what can I say :).
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Christi

United Kingdom
3821 Posts

Posted - Apr 17 2008 :  4:47:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi all,

Well... a very interesting discussion, and some great input from many people. I can see that mapping out the process of human spiritual transformation is going to be a more complex process than I thought. Lucky we've got thousands of years to do it.

It seems to me that there are three schools of thought emerging:

1. That human spiritual transformation basically follows a fairly linear pattern with everyone going through similar stages in basically the same order.
2. That there is a linear sequence of events, but with a lot of room for individual differences along the way and perhaps variations in the sequence in which things happen.
3. That there is no pattern at all in human spiritual transformation and everyone develops differently.

We could add to that the view of Krishnamurti that there is no such thing as spiritual development at all and all you need to do is to sit on top of the mountain. This view is similar to the mention of spiritual development being more a process of undoing that someone mentioned above. But as many years of spiritual practices seem to be required in order to be able to understand that view, it might just be the least useful of the four.

As I mentioned above, I (personally) am seeing increasingly that option 1 is presenting itself as the most likely ultimate outcome, though I am willing to believe that option 2 could also prove to be valid. I also believe that ultimately we will all agree with Krishnamurti, simply because there is no other valid point of view once a certain stage of the development of consciousness has been passed. After all, when all is seen to be one, and is seen to have always been one without second, then who could have developed spiritually, and when would they have done it?

But in the meantime, for us lesser mortals, as far as ranking people goes on the level of spiritual development, I think this is an automatic and necessary process. We all do it, all the time and have our own methods by which we do it. Why would anyone want to buy one of Yogani’s books? Or read the main lessons on this website and follow them? There may be an element by which they feel they resonate with the practices, but they must also feel that he has a high degree of competency and ability in the field of yoga. The same would hold true for many spiritual teachers who people hold in high esteem. They hold them in high esteem because they have demonstrated a high degree of knowledge and ability and competency in their field. Not every spiritual teacher is held in such high esteem and each individual will hold some in higher esteem than others. A result of a natural ranking process. Krishnamurti may have seen everyone as equal, expressions of his own universal self, but then he was the greatest of all masters, the “final flower”.

As for supernatural powers, we are starting to see members of this forum reporting that these are beginning to develop naturally as a direct result of spiritual practices. Recently clair-empathy, clair-sentience, clair-voyance and bi-location have all been reported, as well as the ability to heal others simply through touch or by being present for them. Gradually we will see more and more of these supernatural powers being reported here, and the debate over whether or not they are real will change into a debate over how they are best to be used. Nobody will be flying through the air with their underpants on the outside of their tights, so the word “superman” may be misleading, especially as that was never listed in the scriptures as one of the siddhis that humans develop. Humans do develop the ability to fly, but not in their physical bodies. On the other hand, x-ray vision is not listed in the scriptures, but it is one of the powers that humans develop. Barbara Brennon describes how this siddhi developed in her in great detail in her ”Hands of Light” book. She also describes the development of many other powers, which developed in her own body, which are identical to those that some members of this forum are experiencing.

As someone mentioned above, these powers only seem supernatural to a society in which they are relatively rare. When everyone has them, they will no longer be called supernatural, just ordinary.

Does someone who is experiencing the development of supernatural powers in their body/mind necessarily become inflated or narcissistic? Not at all. The vast majority of people I know who have supernatural powers are very modest and demonstrate a high degree of selflessness. As I mentioned above there is a danger of the ego becoming magnified as a result of this development, but it is only a slight risk, and certainly not a necessity. Only a very few fall into this trap. It is a real trap though, because the supernatural powers are real, and are manifesting in us more each day.

Christi
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yogibear

409 Posts

Posted - Apr 17 2008 :  7:38:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi David,

quote:
Ok, you're a narcissistic son of a gun.




quote:
If you think you're becoming superman in this life, and that yoga is going to do it for you, I'm sticking with what I said -- you're in serious danger of being on a narcissistic trip.


That is probably not realistic for most people including myself.

quote:
The narcissistic problems are in the way you see yourself to be different to the people around you, in an imbalanced way. That's also very likely to get in the way of your spiritual progress.


Hopefully, a person can keep things in their proper perspective and have a balanced development.

quote:
I know an examples of teachers whom I think were inflated, but I don't see any reason to suspect that they are particularly narcissistic.


Your thoughts regarding the difference and relationship between narcissism and inflation make sense to me. They aren't necessarily associated.

quote:
I'm also sticking to what I said that yoga didn't make a superman out of the earlier yogis we know of. There are many reasons I believe this. The spiritual traditions are hyperbolic about their teachers, and paint them as supermen, larger than life. Did it make them great? Oh yeah, it made them great! But superman, no -- they very much had limits. I believe that they too, if on their way to becoming superman, would only become it eventually on the many-lives model.


Agreed.

I think there is a true tradition of super men. But they are few and far between.

According to Elisabeth Haich, author of sexual Energy and Yoga, most of what we see today are people who have reached or are transitioning into the 6th out of 7 levels, the level of a prophets and saints of the west and the great seers and masters of the east. They have not reached perfection. They are one step below. The 5th level would be that of the genius and the fourth, the intellectual and the third, your ordinary run of the mill garden variety homo sap.

She says most of us won’t reach the 7th level, the level of a superman this lifetime. At the same time we should place limits on ourselves as no one can really know their karma nor the elastic limits of their nervous system. She calls this 7th level the God-man, someone who has become the absolute commander of the positive and negative forces that animate the universe.

She calls Christ, the God-man best known and least understood in the west. Other examples she gives are Moses and the pharaohs and high priests of ancient Egypt at the height of its civilization. I think she puts Ramakrishna in this class as well.

It is one way of looking at it.

Best, yb.
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yogibear

409 Posts

Posted - Apr 18 2008 :  09:00:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi weaver,

quote:
Weaver wrote:

Spiritual development can be seen in terms of consciousness being able to be aware of and handle more and more foundational and basic aspects of Reality, and being able to release itself from attachment from and identification with the more specialized aspects of ourselves and our immediate environment,

I also believe that there is no limit or end to (human) spiritual development.


As Yogani puts it, it is the ultimate example of less becoming more.

From Self Inquiry by Yogani(which I highly recommend):

Some have claimed that this is the end of the ego.
Well, maybe by someone’s definition it is, but it is
certainly not the end the person. Rather it is the
expansion of the person to the level of divine
expression.


It is correct to say that enlightenment is the
end of identification and the simultaneous expansion of
divine engagement. It is the ultimate example of less
becoming more.

I don’t know whether there is or isn’t a limit. Haich talks about her guru in a past life in Egypt who was her uncle and high priest. Her father was the pharaoh and he and her uncle ran the country at the time. The one tended the spiritual and the other to the material needs of the Egyptian people.

According to her, they were both supermen or as they referred themselves, Sons of God. Her uncle’s karma didn’t require him to incarnate for 10,000 years after that life because he hadn’t engaged in many worldly acts whereas her father would have to incarnate in maybe 3000 years due to his being more involved with the world.

Both had the ability to elevate themselves at will to God consciousness. But did so only at certain times and mostly operated from the sixth level when attending to their duties as best I understand it.

At this time, she had been artificially able to experience the divine level in the sarcophagus of the great pyramid after a period of several years of yogic sadhana in the temples of their mystery schools. This was referred to as Initiation and she was then allowed to become a priestess in the temple. It seems to me to be a kind of ultimate shaktipat.

According to her, Raja yoga was very much a part of their spiritual culture. In this Egyptian life, after many years of yogic preparation of her nervous system, she achieved the sixth level and passed all the necessary prerequisite tests to undergo initiation, passed this test, and her task was to now achieve the seventh level by her own efforts.

She possessed your standard yogic super powers such as telepathy and controlling wild animals with her will.

Undergoing this Initiation was very dangerous and could result in death and so candidates had to pass highly selective tests in order to be allowed to take the chance to experience cosmic consciousness. Apparently some died during it and had to continue working out their karma in later lives. And some died after initiation, not having achieved it on their own efforts during that life and having to work at in subsequent lives as well.

She was one of these last. She failed to close a karmic door prior to undergoing her initiation and it was her downfall and she burned out her nervous system and committed suicide as a result.

If you achieved cosmic consciousness by your own efforts after your initiation, you were completely free and could not fall. You became a superman. Completely developed power and completely ethical.

I gave examples of these in my last post. Moses was raised by Egyptian royalty.

Her father and uncle had tried to warn her to experience physical love prior to undergoing her training as she could possibly release creative energy untransformed to a level tolerable by her body during the act if she lost control and burn out her nerves. She became super depressed after this and took her life. They both new her fate but because of karmic laws and not interfering with free will and stuff like that, they had to remain silent and let her learn the hard way.

She had to go thru several lives to reach her former level and achieve illumination in this life by her own efforts. She also re-established contact with her uncle. She said her father had reincarnated during the 1900s but was vague about who and where he was.

But she said that she still had work to do on her body after her illumination and that it was not perfect. So what is the ultimate that a human being can achieve? It is beyond me. Since she was fairly involved in earthly life, she will probably incarnate sooner than later.

She states that the amount of time spent on other planes between lives is a function of how material your desires are. this determines the strength of the the pull back to the earthly plane of existence.

I do not understand the subtle nuances and variations of individual karma and spiritual development. I don’t know how it all fits together. I don’t think it matters if I do either. This is under the hood type stuff. But I can grab on to something like ‘as you sow so shall your reap’ and use it to guide me in the real world.

So this story helps me, anyways, to rationalize the inconsistent behavior of some gurus and place them on a scale where they can be spiritually superior and still demonstrate some fundamental flaws. They can fall.

And people who place them on a pedestal and idolize them will learn their necessary unexpected karmic lessons when they do.

As her student, Selvarajan Yesudian said, she was a teacher who did not influence you but taught you not to be influenced. As Yogani says, “the guru is in you.”

OK. There is my book report. This story is, perhaps, a little out there, even for this forum, but this lady and Mr. Yesudian ran the largest yoga school in Europe for sometime after the end of WW2 until they both passed in the 90’s. And their books are some of the best I have read on Yoga. I thought I would post it because it relates to what weaver wrote and it also might inject a kind of interesting twist into the models of yogic history some people might have here on the website.

Her autobiography is called Initiation for any one who is interested in this type of thing.

Best, yb.

Edited by - yogibear on Apr 19 2008 07:37:09 AM
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 18 2008 :  11:34:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Christi said:
Gradually we will see more and more of these supernatural powers being reported here, and the debate over whether or not they are real will change into a debate over how they are best to be used.


If anyone involved in AYP develops real powers that they can really demonstrate, I'd entreat them to do the following: organize a test for the Randi prize, which is now over $1 million. Arrange in advance where the money goes (keep some or all yourself, donate whatever to charity). The world of science will immediately take an enormous interest, as will the world at large. There's a great basis here for promoting AYP, and changing world outlook.

But I don't think this is going to happen because I don't think anyone who can demonstrate those powers in a sophisticated test is going to arise. But if such a person does, I'll take my hat off to them.

Does someone who is experiencing the development of supernatural powers in their body/mind necessarily become inflated or narcissistic? Not at all.

I do agree with that -- if one had supernatural powers, one would not necessarily become inflated or narcissistic. But it's a complex matter. The problem is, many people don't have such powers at all in any proper sense of the word -- and they have a strong desire to both have them, (or some more general powers or just some general amazingness), and to be admired for having them. The are drawn to milieus in which other people have operated on the same desires. That can be a case of furthering unhealthy, narcissistic (egotistical) karma. At the extreme end of this are the black magicians. But unfortunately the problem operates too among people who are nowhere near being black magicians. I believe some of the great yogic missionaries to the West in the 20th century were to a certain extent infected with such problems. This problem includes some gurus who did not particularly identify themselves as Yogis, and the 'powers' were not always strictly magical -- it could even be some perceived power to 'enlighten' that was way overblown.

So 'powers' do not necessarily bring inflation or narcissism, but there are very big risks involved.

I'm not worried about anyone who could pass Randi's test. I'm worried about those thousands who can't, but will cultivate the impression that they could -- who want to live in a milieu in which they are regarded as more than they are.

BTW, if you or anyone else do find you have developed abilities that are of interest to Science, and can be demonstrated to Science, I think you're on the right track on intending to show them to Science.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3821 Posts

Posted - Apr 19 2008 :  05:58:00 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply

Hi David,

I think I would worry about anyone going on the Randi show. It is an American TV show... it is designed to do one thing, to make money. It is not designed to give anyone a million dollars. The show gets audiences by denouncing people as frauds. That’s all it does. I would strongly advise anyone on this forum, or anywhere else, who is experiencing the development of supernatural powers in their body to not go on this show whatever happens.

Having said that, I think anyone interested in making demonstrations of supernormal powers to scientists, should go ahead and do it, as long as any experiments carried out are done properly.

I have already mentioned in another thread that I can perform supernatural abilities that would prove the existence of such powers, but so far have decided not to undergo scientific experiments. The reasons are simple. Firstly a properly conducted scientific test, carried out under proper conditions would have to involve a lot of people and would be expensive to carry out. I can’t imagine any reputable team of scientists actually funding the study.

Secondly, even if someone did fund it, I think the scientists would simply conclude that a power is being effectively demonstrated, but they have no idea how it is being done. I could explain how it is done to them, but the chances of them believing me is so small, that it could be a waste of breath. Supernatural powers work in specific scientific ways, but understanding how they work requires an understanding of whole aspects of the universe that currently lie outside of the modern scientific paradigm. I don’t think me making a demonstration of my (relatively minor) supernormal powers would change the world, and may not change anything at all. It would probably get reported in some scientific journal somewhere and then be forgotten about. Personally, I don’t see the point of going through all that.

But if others want to, then I would encourage them.

One thing to remember is that many of the supernatural powers that develop through yoga simply are not demonstrable in a scientific way. One example would be the ability to see invisible beings. You can hardly stand there and say, “yes, I can see them, they are here now”. It just wouldn’t prove anything to someone who could not see them. And finding a team of scientists, who can all see invisible beings, is really hard these days. There’s a real shortage.

As we progress on the path I think we will have to continue for some time in a situation where people are discussing the development of these powers in their own bodies, but are not able to prove their existence (and probably would not want to even if they could). I don’t think that any lack of understanding in the scientific arena should inhibit us in any way at all at this point. Eventually science will catch up.

But the real process of becoming superhuman is not in the development of powers at all. These are just by-products of something else happening, which is the transformation of consciousness from ordinary consciousness to supramental consciousness. Compared to this, any supernatural powers pale into insignificance. It is the transformation of humans into sons and daughters of God, inheritors of the kingdom of heaven on earth. It is our divine potential, and our rightful inheritance.

Christi

“Some people don’t know, and you can’t even explain things to them because they don’t have the power to understand.”
(Amma Karunamayi)
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