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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - May 23 2007 : 11:25:38 AM
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Can someone please explain to me how the breathing in spinal breathing can cause a breathless state?
I also want to know how long such a breathless state can last.
The breath is obviously connected to the heart. I learned from somewhere that if you hold your breath in, your heart rate decreases by a small amount. Presumably, the longer you go on doing spinal breathing, the amount of time you can go breathless is longer due to a cumulative effect and the fact that the oxygen content of the blood is higher.
However, if you held in your breath by will for, say, a minute, your heart rate doesn't keep on decreasing. This is proved by the fact that if you overdo it, you can fall unconscious. The toxins in the exhale are building up, which causes the heart to send an impulse along the nerve to the medulla which knocks you out.
I have more to say on this yet but i await some replies.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2007 : 7:54:07 PM
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The breathless state has nothing to do with oxygen and CO2 levels. The breathless state is not something you practice or strive for. It happens spontaneously when you have reached a level of prana control that allows your body to subsist directly from prana, or life force, instead of the usual breathing method. It can last extremely long times.
It is a by-product of a lot of purification from consistent, daily yoga practices and bhakti over a long period of time. |
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Blue Opal
33 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2007 : 8:31:07 PM
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| Etherfish, are you speaking from experience? |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2007 : 12:52:15 AM
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Supposedly, energy is drawn from the third eye.
It makes sense, if you concentrate you often get a sensation in the middle of your head and frontal lobes. And, when you concentrate on something it takes your breath away. Like a breathtaking view. But we don't strain for air, and find ourselves in clarity so deep we are absorbed into what we see. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2007 : 09:05:38 AM
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Blue Opal wrote:
"Etherfish, are you speaking from experience?"
Not at all. This is a very advanced state. I'm just speaking from reading about it.
I have gotten to the place where my body stopped breathing for a second, and it scared me and I intentionally pulled out and started breathing.
I don't have the faith to stay there yet.
This is one of many "miraculous" states that attract people to yoga. But if you seek the miracles without doing the consistent daily practices, you become deluded, instead of happy. |
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Blue Opal
33 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2007 : 09:29:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Not at all. This is a very advanced state. I'm just speaking from reading about it.
That is the whole problem with trying to understand yoga. People experience only a little of what they read and think it's safe to assume that the rest is true.
Nobody has answered Gumpi's question, but the general attitude is that we understand how it works because we believe it works.
Etherfish, I have experienced the breathless state several times for up to three minutes. I noticed each time that my heart did not stop beating, so in a sense my body was "breathing", that is, my blood pressure was normal. However, I do not claim to have esoteric explanations for normal bodily processes. |
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2007 : 9:03:02 PM
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Gumpi,
I may not be understanding what you mean by the breathless state. I have experienced the extended cessation of breathing many times, when deep, deep in meditation. It was not possible to know how long it lasted, but judging from the imperative gasp and intake of air, it was for a while. I didn't trace this to pranayama, as it occurred after practicing only meditation for months. At that time when it began, I wasn't doing any other practices such as pranayama or samyama. It still occurs now, with other practices added.
I never concerned myself with the length of time one might endure such a state, and as mentioned above, never considered it something to strive for either.
light and love,
Kathy
Kathy |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2007 : 08:03:35 AM
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blue opal wrotequote:
"That is the whole problem with trying to understand yoga. People experience only a little of what they read and think it's safe to assume that the rest is true."
Not at all. In fact that is one of the premises that built AYP. There is so much obscure and wrong information out there that a simple source of practices was needed that we know to be valid. AYP IS that source you can rely on.
You may have noticed that the breathless state is not something AYP promotes. I just happen to have experienced it a couple times, along with the heart stopping, and it scared me after a few seconds, and I pulled myself out of it intentionally. Nothing at AYP tells you to do this.
It may be something that naturally occurs while doing practices, but it's not something you have to strive for.
quote:
Nobody has answered Gumpi's question, but the general attitude is that we understand how it works because we believe it works.
No, I'm not claiming to know how it works. There IS no answer for Gumpi's question. Spinal breathing doesn't cause the breathless state.
That would be like asking why does putting gas in your car cause beautiful scenery to pass by the windows?
Here's the answer:
The breathless state is caused by the use of prana instead of air to nourish blood cells. It is not caused by spinal breathing.
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2007 : 09:08:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
The breathless state is caused by the use of prana instead of air to nourish blood cells. It is not caused by spinal breathing.
Hi All:
Right, awakened inner vitality can reduce the need for oxygen as ecstatic conductivity expands. All practices that contribute to the rise of ecstatic conductivity play a role in this, including spinal breathing pranayama.
Breath suspension is also caused by a natural reduction in metabolism, particularly during deep meditation. This is a common experience for those who practice deep meditation.
So, both inner silence and ecstatic conductivity contribute to the phenomenon of respiration slowing down.
And, yes, we do not make a goal of breath suspension in AYP. It is a natural result of inner purification and opening.
Prudent voluntary regulation of breathing can be utilized in practical ways during certain practices -- comfortable slowing of the breath during spinal breathing pranayama, and short periods of kumbhaka during yoni mudra and chin pump.
The best way to find the answers is to practice daily, building a routine gradually over time, with self-pacing applied as needed. Then the questions will eventually be forgotten in a sea of abiding inner silence and ecstatic bliss. 
And, as has been said many times before, the cessation of substance abuse is a necessary prerequisite for inner purification. There is no getting around it.
The guru is in you.
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2007 : 09:47:35 AM
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| You see, i was wondering about something related. I don't know if the following idea is sound or not. I thought that if i held my breath in i would begin to feel my heart beating. This actually works - try it out. But also that i could gain conscious control of the beats and slow them down. I reasoned that if i did spinal breathing before this i would be able to hold my breath for longer. I haven't tried this yet but i imagine it takes practice to slow the heart. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2007 : 9:24:13 PM
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I doubt if spinal breathing will directly affect holding your breath. But doing consistent yoga practices, twice a day, will lead you in the direction of slowing your heart and breathing.
You need to practice consistently over the long term in order to get results, instead of looking for "tricks" to perform some kind of feat.
You will never get very far with yoga unless you practice consistently, twice a day, over a long period of time. Add to that formula devotion and desire (bhakti), and that's all you need. |
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aditya
82 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2007 : 10:07:29 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
I have experienced it. I practise both spinal breathing and Pranayam. But this happens, probably, due to meditation as Kathy explained. Important part is 'cessation of substance abuse' as pointed by Yogani - it may include tea and coffee as well.
I cannot say if breathe stops altogether (I guess not) nor can I tell you time that it lasts(you do not know when you enter the state - you know only when you come out). But when you come out of it - you can feel that you are breathing very slowly. Another thing that might be helpful is not to think that you have to gain that state- it happens automatically. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2007 : 3:43:19 PM
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"I thought that if i held my breath in i would begin to feel my heart beating. This actually works - try it out. But also that i could gain conscious control of the beats and slow them down."
This is definitely working. It is taught as a method to for example prevent anxiety or a panic attack. The one thing you really can control of your bodily functions is the breath, and you can switch deliberately from a sympathetic nervous increase to a parasympathetic function in order to lower stress levels.
I experimented with that when I was working night shift at a treatment place for youths - my slower breathing made them go asleep. I could lower my pulse from normal resting pulse at 70 bpm to sometimes as low as 45 bpm (the normal level of extreme elite sportsmen).
However, this was before I started my spiritual journey. The kind of slow breathing, slow pulse and breath stop I experience now is quite different. I don't have to make any effort to get into such a state. It started to happen naturally (automatic yoga) in the beginning of my path. I could walk around a whole morning at work just breathing 2-3 breaths/min. Constantly. And sometimes I just didn't breath for 30 s. I could even keep that slow breathing during heavy aerobic excercise with a pulse at 160!!! It felt very strange, I'll tell you! I reacted like "Who's breathing in my body? It sure isn't me!" But since I started with spinal breathing and deep meditation it has stabilized. Now this breathing comes mostly during practices, only occasionally outside of practice. I do have a general slower deep breathing during daily life, but the extreme slow breathing occurs only during practices.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2007 : 7:38:37 PM
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| hey- i just realized yoga shrinks your carbon footprint! |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2007 : 10:44:58 AM
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aditya, are you speaking about kevela khumbaka or just states of relaxation where the breathing rate slows?
I experience my breathing rate slow every time i meditate. When i did spinal breathing for a little bit before i meditated a few days ago i found my breathing interfering with my concentration because it felt like i was gasping for air for the rest of the duration of meditation.
Does anyone have any tips on how to refrain from involuntarily controlling the breath when meditating? I find it distracting and irritating. |
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aditya
82 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2007 : 12:42:38 PM
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| I was talking about meditation and not Kumbhaka. |
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paw
52 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 7:05:31 PM
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You yogis may remember me from other posts/topics like this one. I know I was advised last Jan. to deemphasize kumbakha in my practice by many here on this board, and I agree with you all.
But, I am at a point in my sadhana where kevali kumbakha is happening regularly in meditation. I also enter breathless states consciously.
I have some experience with breathless states coming into AYP, as I have regulated and relaxed to this state a number of times over the course of my life.
Kriya Shiva Shakti breath is similar to SB. I was doing ayp sb for about a year, I was making good progress but felt I wanted to speed up the process some (I am not a young man! 60). I could see an advantage in having a satguru to help me along. I was impressed by the teachings and claims of Yogiraj Gurunath, so I received initiation from him. I have found him to be the real deal satguru.
Since that time, in August 2007, my practice has lengthened and progressed to 72 kriya, with mahamudra and meditation. About 90 min daily. In April I will move to 144 kriya.
The kriya breaths feel so good, so that at the "top" (fullness) of the inhale, it's natural to pause and float there in bliss. I don't have to close off the airway to float, just suspend the exhale, extend the diaphragm and rest. Khechari is helpful here. In time, the float became several minutes (or as long as you like), resulting in a very blissful state.
Over time and regular kriya practice, the float extended to meditation also. Then kevali started, an effortless and automatic ceasing of the breath, with airways closed. Then I found I could enter the breathless state in a variety of ways.
I could slap myself on the solar plexus at the sternum, and think "Stop!", and the breath would stop. I could do this standing up and walking around. Also, doing a deep backbend pose would cause breathlessness for as long as held, or after. I could "feel" for kevali, just gently restrain and regulate the throat breathing impulse and relax the diaphragm to limit it until it relaxed into kevali kumbakha. Or I could inhale full, and just close and hold. Or I could exhale fully, and close, and work the diaphragm pump thru the transition into breathlessness. When doing the latter, the heart has not yet stopped, but when established in the state in full relaxation, the diaphragm can become a slow rhythmic spasm. This can be linked to the heartbeat.
I have also entered kevali accidentally, like when lying on the couch rubbing my eyes, getting into the visuals and relieving headache, then noting myself still and breathless and passing thru a lilac and mauve void thinly scattered with fractal planetoid objects.
Duration doesn't seem to be a limiting factor. Gurunath is in Samadhi nightly.
I feel that Gurunath has mediated these experiences in my practice. I feel secure in the Hamsa net.
I feel breath suspension is part of pratyahara, and that it is a first step towards dissolving the other senses and forms, leading to samadhi. I'm speculating here.
I would value any opinions of other yogis on these topics. |
Edited by - paw on Jan 09 2008 03:51:21 AM |
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tallis
Hungary
71 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2008 : 03:27:50 AM
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Hi Paw,
Can you describe how you perform the Shiva Shakti breath, or exactly how it differs from AYP spinal breathing?
Is it the pranayama which involves going up along the posterior side of the spine, resting at the third eye for a few seconds and then descending along the front of the spine? |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2008 : 09:21:44 AM
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Hi Paw:
Your journey is beautiful, going to show we each will find our own way. If AYP can help a little in that, it is serving its purpose. It's a great way to be spending our evening years, yes?
Remember to look beyond the thing of the moment. As we are called to serve by the outpouring of divine love, we will breathe again. Self-pace as necessary.
The guru is in you. |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2008 : 11:23:00 AM
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Hi you guys,
I will throw in my experience with kevala kumbhaka if this is what it actually was.
I went into a state that I described different parts of in other posts when I was 18.
As I went into this state, my breath started to change. My inhale became very long and very subtle. My exhale became shorter and shorter. Eventually my exhale ceased and it seemed like I was continuously inhaling but it was so refined that it reached a point where it just suspended. I don't know how long the transition into this breathing pattern took or for how long my breath was suspended because I lost track of time and my outer senses in this experience.
This was spontaneous. I didn't try to make it happened. I just got out of the way. Actually, I just favored my practice which was concentrating on the heart while it happened.
Also, after asana practice, on a regular basis, I would concentrate on my heart for 10 minutes and then lie down for 10 more. I would hardly breathe at all during this time.
Glory days.
Best, yb.
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paw
52 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2008 : 5:17:51 PM
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Thanks yogani, I value your advice greatly. It is your teachings that got me going, your yahoo group that introduced me to the advanced yoga practices. You introduced me to spinal breathing, khechari and many other yoga teks, and I am very grateful. I use your manual as a constant reference on every topic. Your "Secrets of Wilder", and your many responses to students have been very inspirational to me, leading me through a few years of the "clunky" stages to established daily practice.
And now I am enjoying the fruits of ecstatic conductivity, just as you promised. The transformation process is real. A lot of my bull**** is falling away, and yes, bakhti and service are becoming. My heart's desire for divine communion is being fulfilled. And yes, it IS a great way to be spending our evening years. You are right on, brah! All my love to you 
Tallis, there is little difference between the two. While doing sb, I followed a natural duration, time wasn't a concern. But with kriya, the recommendation was for a 22 second inhale, 22 exhale. So I made a timer program to beep me, and practiced 16 sec cycle, then 18, then 20, then 22. This was hard at first, but I got better at it, now it's easy. I think this lengthening process taught me a lot. Once I had a feel for the duration, I dropped the timer, and now duration is not a concern at all. Khechari is valuable as the regulator. I also fill the pot full before the pause at the top, it is sometimes fun to pull the diaphragm down strongly while inflated to the max.
As to tek, no I just go up and down the spine, focusing more and more on the sushumna tube as advised by yogani. Other than mentally providing a mantra, with "va" on the inhale and "shi" on the exhale, Shiva Shakti kriya and yogani's spinal breathing are the same. Keeping the eyeballs steady and in sambhavi mudra helps, as advised by yogani. I use the tongue tip at the septum to regulate the airstream to add a feeling of suction, or pressure, to assist the steady rising of the cool energy, and the descent of the warm energy. But I do not hold mulabanda during the kriya, only briefly applying a contraction in muladhar as the attention descends to the sacral region and root, then relaxing again as the inhale begins. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2008 : 12:37:04 PM
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How long does everyone's breathless state last for?
I seem to be pausing on the exhale for around 15 seconds a time.
I would like to lengthen this pause. But i don't know how to. Does anyone know? |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2008 : 1:03:18 PM
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Hi gumpi
Trying to force a longer pause especially on the exhale can be damaging to your lungs. Its not part of AYP practices to pause on the exhale but if you think you really need to do it Its best and safer to just let it happen on its own, during deep meditation your brain will require less and less oxygen and the breath suspension will just happen naturally. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2008 : 2:25:13 PM
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| Richard, i mean that the breath suspension is happening naturally but i would like to prolongue it. |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2008 : 3:44:17 PM
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quote:
Richard, i mean that the breath suspension is happening naturally but i would like to prolongue it.
If the intent is there to prolong the pause the suspension will get longer on its own when and only when the brain requires less oxygen trying to prolong it before that is damaging. That's all I was trying to say sorry if I wasn't clear |
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Breath and heart pondering
