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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - May 15 2007 : 02:23:36 AM
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I've made some small changes to some physical/energetic things, and it's been making a huge diff in my meditation. Much more silence. I'll write about what I'm doing once I'm further along with it.
I reached a state in meditation tonight that felt like pre-becoming. It was sort of like a very extended "ah" before the "choo" (sneeze-wise). A very very long pregnant pause that felt real "pre-".
At first I didn't think this was a level of samadhi, because I retained a certain amount of self-consciousness. But as I asked myself the usual maddeningly noisy self-conscious questions that pull one out of such states (e.g. "is this a level of samadhi?" and "have I retained self consciousness?"), I found that the questioning tendrils had no roots...they didn't actually attach to anything. They, too, were sort of..."pre". They happened, but they didn't launch a process. All process was "pre", a state of infinite becoming.
And while I felt quite close to a "normal" state of consciousness the whole time (not sure how long it actually was), ending the meditation and opening my eyes was like walking home from Peru.
It was pretty fresh for me. Any of you samadhi-ish people felt anything like this?
Come to think of it (right this sec), it did in fact resemble something I used to work on. I used to be convinced that there was great spiritual profundity in moments where you forget what you were going to say, or why you walked into a room. Those brain fart moments struck me as being real close to perfect silence, so I'd try to cultivate and refine that sort of hiccup. .....and this seemed like an extreme version of that. It was like rising on my toes to make an emphatic point, with my finger in the air, and just standing there with mouth agape....for a long, long time. There was such inertia and potential energy that even a bit of self-consciousness couldn't make me sink off my toes and draw back my finger. I didn't feel frozen or spacey, I felt free. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 15 2007 02:30:50 AM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 03:39:38 AM
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Hi Jim
Thanks for sharing this.
quote:
There was such inertia and potential energy that even a bit of self-consciousness couldn't make me sink off my toes and draw back my finger. I didn't feel frozen or spacey, I felt free.
Was it an experience of being in presence? |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 11:45:04 AM
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| No, it was pretty wiped clear of qualities of anything, including "presence". It was the ah before the choo. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 12:14:59 PM
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| BTW, maybe people in Norway say something different when they sneeze, in which case that made no sense, in which case I apologize! |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 2:17:03 PM
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Hi Jim
quote:
BTW, maybe people in Norway say something different when they sneeze, in which case that made no sense, in which case I apologize!
It is pretty similar, really.
We say "atsjo"
"a......tsjo",
so it made perfect sense, Jim 
I just wondered....because the "a" before the "tsjo"....to me, it is infused with presence. It is pregnant with presence. If I am totally still with the "a"....if I don't move (mentally or physically) at all........then the "tsjo" never comes. Instead I feel a clarity in the head.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 2:46:02 PM
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I've had some samadhi experiences, and I'd agree with Jim that they are void of anything, including presence. Presence implies "other", which there doesn't seem to be. I'd describe it as more of an immense absence.
I'm curious what the changes were that brought it on, Jim. I've never felt that this was the preliminary to something else. That's interesting, though. Like you, I try (in vain) not to analyze what's happening, but I haven't had the feeling of anticipation that you describe. |
Edited by - Manipura on May 15 2007 3:13:11 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 3:23:09 PM
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meg, have you ever been there and found wisps of self consciousness arising but without derailing?
I've had many experiences of consciousness-without-an-object....all short because of my insatiable impulse to narrate, analyze, probe, and frame. That self-consciousness usually immediately brings me back into the conditioned/conditional state. This was the first time self-awareness could put in an appearance (albeit meek and tiny) without cranking up the engine.
Which, now that I think of it, recalls one of the first things I ever posted on this forum, when I discovered (to my delight and incredible liberation) after many years of trying various meditation techniques that a big, loud, honking thought in the middle of a peaceful meditation experience ("I forgot to lock the car!" or "I hope it's not meatloaf again for dinner!") doesn't mean I need to "start from scratch" so to speak. Thoughts flash...it's not a barometer of how deep you've gone, it's just stuff to neutrally observe and let happen. So...........maybe that's true here, too. Disruptive thoughts like "where am I?" or "Is this really samadhi?" arent' necessarily "spoilers". Sometimes they're just little ticks and husks, and don't mean my inner narrative is necessarily barging back in (i.e. the presence of errant thoughts doesn't necessarily mean thinking's being done!). It's hard to talk about this...I've spotted nineteen spiritual fallacies in that last sentence alone. But, hey, sometimes this stuff is helpful so I'm dragging it out in public :) |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 15 2007 3:25:09 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 4:08:46 PM
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Hi Meg
quote:
Presence implies "other",
Could you elaborate a little on this, Meg?
I find presence to be single......wiping out all sense of "other".
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 4:46:11 PM
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Hi Jim,
By coincidence one of my students was asking me last night to describe how samadhi felt as he thought he had experienced it last weekend.Well it's difficult to describe and it's perceived differently by each of us. My best description is one of a 'blank canvas' which he seemed to understand.For me it is an experience of nothing unlike sleep where you are often aware of things in the background.For example if one is asleep as a passenger in a car, one is still aware of the noise and cars passing.For me samadhi has no background noise and yet when the time is right, the slighest noise will stir me from the sate.
L&L
Dave |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 5:00:12 PM
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Jim - My samadhi experiences have always been surprisingly immune to outside interference. Simply put, they come and go without any apparent regard for me or my actions/efforts. When it shows up, there's that moment of, "Oh - here it is again..." and no matter how much I analyze or dissect, it doesn't go away. In fact, the phone can ring, my cat can crawl on my lap, I can change my sitting position, and it still doesn't go away, until it goes away.
Katrine - We may be referring to 2 different things. I mean by 'presence' the felt but unseen existence of a nearby person, object, or emotion. (a quick definition, but let's go with it). I suspect that by 'presence' you mean a 'showing up' of sorts; a self-appearance, or undiluted awareness in which you are object, subject, and so on. I base that assumption on this sentence, in which you use 'in presence' almost as a verb:
Katrine - "Was it an experience of being in presence?"
Actually, now that I think about it, your use of the word is very good, and better than mine. When this event happens, it brings me into 100% presence. Is that what you mean? |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 6:24:44 PM
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Hey Jim - It just occurred to me that maybe you're experiencing a taste of nirvikalpa samadhi. I know that I'm in the fairly young stages of savikalpa, by the descriptions I read. This gives an interesting description of both, if anyone's interested: (keeping in mind that descriptions of this sort are notoriously difficult, and samadhi experiences vary widely).
www.srichinmoy.org/spiritual...ation/samadhi |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 9:11:58 PM
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Nirvikalpa samadhi, nah.
I wasn't so much looking for a name, or confirmation that it's such-and-such. Just wondering if it might stir up some interesting associations for others. In any case, it's all "scenery"! :)
quote:
Originally posted by meg
I'm curious what the changes were that brought it on, Jim.
New ways of handling my front channel block (a problem whose history I describe in the final posting on this page: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2387
With block removed, everything's different. If you don't have such a block, it'd be of no interest. And if you do have such a block, please wait a little while till I feel like I have more of a grip on the whole thing. I'm not a big fan of disseminating work in progress! :) |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 15 2007 9:13:24 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 10:20:38 PM
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Jim,
My samadhi has changed as well, but the way you describe it doesn't really match my experience. The thing I most relate to is the ah-before-the-choo idea. Care to describe it more? Perhaps in a different way, if possible? |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 10:35:23 PM
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Scott, I danced around it a few times already...not sure I can do better. It's already sort of crumbling into overanalyzed dryness for me at this point!
If the "brain fart" thing didn't ring familiar to you, then it's probably just different scenary. |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 10:58:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
I've made some small changes to some physical/energetic things, and it's been making a huge diff in my meditation. Much more silence. I'll write about what I'm doing once I'm further along with it.
I reached a state in meditation tonight that felt like pre-becoming. It was sort of like a very extended "ah" before the "choo" (sneeze-wise). A very very long pregnant pause that felt real "pre-".
At first I didn't think this was a level of samadhi, because I retained a certain amount of self-consciousness. But as I asked myself the usual maddeningly noisy self-conscious questions that pull one out of such states (e.g. "is this a level of samadhi?" and "have I retained self consciousness?"), I found that the questioning tendrils had no roots...they didn't actually attach to anything. They, too, were sort of..."pre". They happened, but they didn't launch a process. All process was "pre", a state of infinite becoming.
And while I felt quite close to a "normal" state of consciousness the whole time (not sure how long it actually was), ending the meditation and opening my eyes was like walking home from Peru.
It was pretty fresh for me. Any of you samadhi-ish people felt anything like this?
Come to think of it (right this sec), it did in fact resemble something I used to work on. I used to be convinced that there was great spiritual profundity in moments where you forget what you were going to say, or why you walked into a room. Those brain fart moments struck me as being real close to perfect silence, so I'd try to cultivate and refine that sort of hiccup. .....and this seemed like an extreme version of that. It was like rising on my toes to make an emphatic point, with my finger in the air, and just standing there with mouth agape....for a long, long time. There was such inertia and potential energy that even a bit of self-consciousness couldn't make me sink off my toes and draw back my finger. I didn't feel frozen or spacey, I felt free.
Sounds lovely, I'm curious, what was your breathing pattern like at the time?
The refrain you are talking about resonates powerfully with the breath refrain. Did you notice a slower breath?
I've found that there is a specific blissful, silent, dynamically active within state that comes with a certain breathing pattern. I think for years it was struggling to get the body to breath this way and now it is feeling more natural.
It definitely feels like you are offering the in to the out and the out to the in, as there is just this slow steady movement of lungs and other and belly. You can tell that many normal breaths pass in the space of this single breath. And when the refrain or pause comes it is not at all strained. At this point, you just pause.
What is happening to me in that moment is I am becoming completely absorbed into the infinite it seems, in the refrain or pause or agape. It reminds me of Tolle's book, where he says be like the servant waiting ever for the master to arrive. That's what the refrain of energy, breath, and thought feels like to me I think, at this point in the process.
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Edited by - Kyman on May 15 2007 11:04:02 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 10:59:37 PM
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Well, it does but a few other things. I will go into a samadhi where all things disappear, like deep sleep, but then all of a sudden my mind will seem to flip inside out, and be very awake and only witnessing. The body starts vibrating, and everything seems to become very bright. My breath stops for a few seconds during this.
You're right it's probably something different, just sharing to see if you relate to it at all. |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 11:05:52 PM
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Most definitely can relate, and am thankful to.
Its as if we are scooping up an ephemeral cloud and comparing handfuls just long enough before it dissipates into the impossible task of comparing and contrasting no-thing.
Thanks for sharing.
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Edited by - Kyman on May 15 2007 11:10:24 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 11:10:27 PM
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kyman, I don't focus on breath at all in meditation. I find that when I pay it any heed, the mantra starts wanting to synch with the breath. Also, I start getting uptight and breathing more (whereas if I don't pay attention, breath settles down into loooong periods of spontaneous kumbhaka). I only notice breath, in fact, when I start getting self-aware, which makes me realize I need to breathe.
My understanding is that AYP suggests taking mind off breath in meditation and just letting it do whatever it does. FWIW! :) |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 11:15:26 PM
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Scott, Idunno, I try hard to avoid latching onto "first it does this...and then it does that...and then i feel this...and then this color appears..." sorts of roadmaps. I know that my mind is quite capable of feeding me all the elements it believes I'm looking for in my meditation. so when I start building up expectations of how things will/should/ought to go (and those expectations seem pretty unavoidable), that's when I simplify. I return to saying mantra as if I were brushing my teeth. I say mantra real coarse...just a moronic loud dumb "I AM....I AM....". And I just let the mantra do me.....and all the roadmap stuff falls away. It's like having barnacles scraped off one's hull. I try to remember that meditation isn't like playing ZORK (sorry, I've dated myself).
I have no doubt that what I've described is just more barnacles. Usually i don't share my barnacles in public 'cuz they're contagious.
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 15 2007 11:16:32 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2007 : 08:23:44 AM
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I've had this feeling that "something is about to happen". Is this what you mean by "pre"?
Actually it's a little more primal than that, like "something unknown and important" or "everything is about to happen".
I've often wondered if it is a connection to unmanifest reality? |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2007 : 09:14:55 AM
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Hi Meg
quote:
When this event happens, it brings me into 100% presence. Is that what you mean?
Yes!
And when this happens, then there is only this presence. Nothing else. It is not that I stop seeing objects or subjects (whether gross or subtle).....but the presence is the only thing real. The only thing alive. It is this livingness that is the verbness (if I can use such an expression...)
And although it is absolutely nothing....it is paradoxically a substantial, unlimited nothing. |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2007 : 6:49:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
kyman, I don't focus on breath at all in meditation. I find that when I pay it any heed, the mantra starts wanting to synch with the breath. Also, I start getting uptight and breathing more (whereas if I don't pay attention, breath settles down into loooong periods of spontaneous kumbhaka). I only notice breath, in fact, when I start getting self-aware, which makes me realize I need to breathe.
My understanding is that AYP suggests taking mind off breath in meditation and just letting it do whatever it does. FWIW! :)
I certainly agree with this, although I think over time it becomes much easier to consciously breath and maintain the extremely faint breath pattern.
Once its established, it becomes like any other context in which you are midst. Just as people used to get angry at those who disturb them in deep concentration, because it breaks the stillness. But once stillness is established, one can take in sounds without losing the foundation of stillness or inner silence.
I occasionally will use my dead Aunt's rosary beads while breathing to get an accurate gauge, if I'm feeling curious.
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2007 : 6:51:04 PM
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| double post |
Edited by - Kyman on May 16 2007 7:11:22 PM |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2007 : 6:51:44 PM
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| damn, double double post |
Edited by - Kyman on May 16 2007 7:11:22 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2007 : 7:46:27 PM
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Meg and Katrine,
I can relate to what both of you are saying. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 17 2007 : 07:16:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Meg and Katrine,
I can relate to what both of you are saying.
What part, Scott? In some ways we're saying different things, and I wonder which resonates with you, if you care to elaborate. I characterize the space that opens up during samadhi as a conspicuous, infinite absence. But I've adopted Katrine's definition of 'presence', (or my interpretation of it), and agree with her that there IS a powerful, undiluted presence there, and it is mine. The bizarre inner state of samadhi, even at the beginning stages where I currently reside, brings that 'something' within us into complete attention. It's not as though there's a choice to be made in the matter - it would be like someone clapping their hands inches from your face; you have no option other than to be present, or 'in presence'. |
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Interesting Experience of Infinite Becoming
