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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
 Posted - May 14 2007 : 4:02:25 PM
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Hello.
I have been doing AYP for about a month now and i do some beginner asanas, SB, and DM. I have since stopped masturbating which used to be a problem and I am quite happy with my abstinence. I have an active sex life and my question is about stoppng ejaculating. My girlfriend doesnt seem to like my abstaining all that much, but its really more about how hard it is not to. I dont feel any pranic energy or inner orgasms, so its hard to not ejaculate at all. I worry that this will hurt my practices in meditation or pranayama, especially as a beginner. I am young so i assume maybe the restoration rate is quicker, but I still worry. Is this something I should worry about now, or later down the road?
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2007 : 7:12:37 PM
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Hi Anthony,
I've been avoiding waking ejaculation for nearly a year now, but a couple of days ago I had ejaculatory sex with my love. She prefers it when I do, which still surprises me. But she accepts it when I don't cum.
The next morning I overslept and felt the loss of inner energy all day, which is ok. I accept that. It was a joy being so close to her and all. But in the near future, I'm going back to no ejaculation. I prefer the high energy.
One love making thing we are both enjoying lately is taking off our clothes in the morning, and cuddling naked for a little while before we get up. That has both the feeling of closeness and lots of energy generating power.
That is my story just to say I'm on the same path. I'm fairly old --45. I'm not offering advice, just sharing, and I'd like to hear from others on this topic. Really, I would.
B. |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2007 : 7:44:14 PM
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Girlfriends usually don't like abstaining, because ejaculation is a way to bind you to them and establish their power on you. If you abstain, you're a free man, you're no more in need, and they're very afraid of that because usual relationships are based on reciprocal need.
That is sad to be said, but I've a friend who lives like a yogi since 30 years, devoting his life to practice, girls have always tried to bind him, and when they see that they cannot, they create as many problems as they can, and he has to leave them. |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2007 : 11:37:56 PM
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It's not so much about my girlfriend, she adjusts to me not ejaculating.
My question is mainly about whether it is something I need to concern myself about at this early stage of practice. I have not yet felt pranic energy during meditation or pranayama so I am not sensitive to the draining effects of ejaculation. I have stopped masturbating so I have cut down on ejaculation by over 50% but there is still the sex aspect. I try to take the middle path for now and tell myself I will only ejaculate every one in four times, but it never works, I always end up being manipulated by my penis. I defintley aim to abstain moreso, but I wonder how dentrimental it is early on. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 01:22:47 AM
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| Well, I experimented with seminal retention starting in my early 20s and the effects were pretty immediate and dramatic. For myself I needed to wait about 4 days to a week of abstinance from ejaculation to feel the energy changes and after usually 2 weeks I felt the inner pressure was too demanding. Now that I am older the recharge rate is somewhat slower and i prefer to have a cycle of at least a month or longer if I have no (demanding) girlfriend so perhaps you either have alot of natural energy or you haven't waited long enough to feel the changes. I was going to say in my response to your earlier post that building energy through sexual restraint has been the key for me to really feel the energy changes in practice and feel that it is really working |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 02:48:29 AM
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Sort of dumbbell suggestions, but perhaps useful.
1. sex with a yogi has its ups and downs. you need to conserve, but you presumably have a bit more sensitivity, sexual intuition and generosity, and bhakti (which feels, to her, like studliness) than most people she's been with. So really let all those good qualities flow. And she'll hopefully mind a bit less that other things don't flow quite as often.
2. marathon oral sex is your friend.
3. give her the AYP Deep Meditation book, and hope to win her over.
4. learn to fake ejaculations (I'm not kidding).
5. completely remove all sense of guilt if you do ejaculate. this isn't catholicism...you're not, like, sinning. We try to conserve, but do what we must. You may want to look into Taoist methods as a last resort (they sort of conflict with AYP). There's a technique of drawing up the essence that makes ejaculation much less wasteful. AYP may have the same...I've not read the tantra lessons.
6. work hard to at least make her understand that you're not emotionally denying her with this.
7. if she absolutely insists on your ejaculating in spite of your clear reluctance, and in spite of your having explained (and demonstrated) that you're fully open and loving and that this isn't about emotionally denying her.......consider whether this is a mature relationship with someone worthy of you. I'm not saying break up the relationship 'cuz she's bad for your yoga. I mean really consider these dynamics. You want someone who's on your side, right?
8. next time you're between girlfriends, consider not actively looking around for new opportunities. Vows of celibacy are a bit dramatic, but periods of intense undistracted practice can be helpful.
Hope that helps! Hope we get some more women's perspectives.... |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 15 2007 02:53:24 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 03:00:26 AM
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| woops, I just read your second posting. Ok, the answer is: try to limit insofar as you can without making yourself crazy. Practice AYP religiously, which will give you greater clarity, control, and perspective, and lead to a natural resolution of the issue. But don't feel guilty. Building up stress over this is counter-productive, and will only draw you to more ejaculation. Be gentle with yourself and keep starting over. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 04:19:36 AM
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Hi Jim,
quote:
4. learn to fake ejaculations (I'm not kidding).
How can you fake an ejaculation? Unless you do something really clever under the sheets with a tube of hair gel... or?
But I agree with everything else you said, great advice.
Hi Anthony,
I really wouldn't fret too much. It's not such a big deal. When the time is right it will come (no pun intended  ).
As for your girlfriend, I know you said that it is not so much your girlfriend that is the problem, but if she supported you in this, it could really help.
I think it is not just because many women want to have power over a man that they want them to ejaculate in bed. That seems a bit unfair to women. Men also want women to orgasm when they are making love... well, some men do anyway... maybe not as many as we would hope for. But it is not necessarily about control and power (it could be), but more likely I think it is that when we make love with someone, we want to please them, and for a woman, if a man ejaculates it is a sure sign that they have reached orgasm. And that means they have succeeded in pleasing the man.
So with Tantric lovemaking we have to establish new ways of showing each other that we are being full-filled by our lover. Ejaculation and orgasm obviously can't provide that confirmation anymore. This can be a bit hard at first if we are used to ejaculating during lovemaking, and actually not ejaculating is just plain awkward and frustrating. How can you communicate to your partner that you are being full-filled by her, when actually you are just deeply frustrated? 
But that is a stage that we go beyond.
If you get good at it (tantric sex without ejaculation), you will be able to last a lot longer in bed, and you will be able to bring your (very lucky) girlfriend to hights of ecstatic pleasure beyond her wildest dreams. She won't care less whether you ejaculate or not then. And neither will you.
Do it for her, as a gift.
Christi
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 11:39:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
quote:
4. learn to fake ejaculations (I'm not kidding).
How can you fake an ejaculation? Unless you do something really clever under the sheets with a tube of hair gel... or?
If you're using a condom, it's a cynch. |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 12:03:40 PM
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"If you get good at it (tantric sex without ejaculation), you will be able to last a lot longer in bed, and you will be able to bring your (very lucky) girlfriend to hights of ecstatic pleasure beyond her wildest dreams. She won't care less whether you ejaculate or not then. And neither will you."
Well, if that's not some motivation I don't know what is.
Actually Jim, I think it does have to do with her. Although she would support my efforts to abstain, if she was actively supportive instead of passively and perhaps more encouraging I think it would help me out. Knowing that she wants me to simply allows my genitals more volume in the matter in thier quest to manipulate me. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 12:26:29 PM
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Anthony, it'll work out. You seem to have some insight on it, and the masturbation progress is promising. I think you're doing fine, and if some tidbits in this thread help, great. Issues like this show you the mettle of a relationship. Again, it's not about choosing between yoga and girlfriend...it's about wondering "hmm...why am I finding myself in a position where I feel pressured to choose?" But, again, I can't emphasize enough the necessity of having her understand that you're not emotionally withholding from her. That's a very easy misunderstanding.
As christy says, tantra is an answer, and will make the ejaculation issue moot (though it takes time to learn). But there's one thing to be aware of. Tantra is something to do if you're in a relationship and that's what's happening and you need to make the best of it, conserve as much as you can, use it all as fodder for your spiritual quest, etc. But not even Yogani (who is a tantric teacher and practitioner) says that it's, like, the optimal approach to spiritual practice. it's not something to seek out as a central activity and get real "into" as a lifestyle. Meditation's the thing that really gets you where you want to go.
So beware of getting too caught up in the heady notion of thrilling the bejesus out of babes with your tantric woojoo, and rationalizing that it's all good for your spiritual journey. There's an obvious trap there which many fall in. Tantra is about making sex serve yoga, not making yoga serve sex. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 15 2007 12:36:32 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2007 : 12:17:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by anthony574
Hello.
I have been doing AYP for about a month now and i do some beginner asanas, SB, and DM. I have since stopped masturbating which used to be a problem and I am quite happy with my abstinence. I have an active sex life and my question is about stoppng ejaculating. My girlfriend doesnt seem to like my abstaining all that much, but its really more about how hard it is not to. I dont feel any pranic energy or inner orgasms, so its hard to not ejaculate at all. I worry that this will hurt my practices in meditation or pranayama, especially as a beginner. I am young so i assume maybe the restoration rate is quicker, but I still worry. Is this something I should worry about now, or later down the road?
Hi Anthony,
Like many men, I held back regarding ejaculatory abstinence for quite some time.
If I had known what I know now, I wouldn't have (waited to try it).
Especially considering the fact you're having some starting-level psychic visuals (per your other post) after only a month ... retaining your semen can be an awesome way to turbocharge your practice.
AYP Tantra emphasizes the "cultivation and retention" of the sexual essence -- the cultivation part can be quite a bit of fun, for both you and your girlfriend!
It's kind of like your body pays about a thousand percent interest ... by ejaculating, you're saying, "I really wanna spend five bucks", when your body is saying, "Don't ejaculate, do AYP, and before long, instead of five bucks, you'll have five hundred!"
I used to think that yoga practices meant giving up stuff ... they don't. They're an investment. Seriously.
Anything you "give up" in yoga, pays off, thousands of times over, before very long ... including in the exact area you've given up (quote-unquote).
Example: I used to ejaculate multiple times per _day_ (few years ago). A year and a half or so ago, I started retaining ejaculation ... just for a week or so ... and gradually extended the time period (now, I'll go anywhere between two and four months, or so).
Because I have faith it will pay off??
Noooo ......
Because it PAID off!
I now have multiple, full body orgasms ... including places in my body where I didn't know there were freakin' nerves!
I literally did not know the human body-mind could experience such ecstasy.
I'm not the only AYPer to make that comment, either.
For me, it's become kind of "meta-sexual" ... with ejaculatory orgasm diminishing in priority, because it really ain't all that great ... our body-mind is designed for SO much for pleasure than a few second of squirt-n-quiver, focused in the genitals.
And, I would comment: your girlfriend wants you to ejaculate because you've both been conditioned that "helping each other come" means you're both doing your jobs in bed.
And that's not necessarily untrue; truly honoring and serving your partner, sexually, is a beautiful part of life and love-making ... just know that the pleasure you can help each other have is many orders of magnitude beyond what you now conceive to be possible.
Hope that helps!
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2007 : 01:38:15 AM
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Hi Jim,
quote:
So beware of getting too caught up in the heady notion of thrilling the bejesus out of babes with your tantric woojoo, and rationalizing that it's all good for your spiritual journey. There's an obvious trap there which many fall in. Tantra is about making sex serve yoga, not making yoga serve sex.
You are absolutely right Jim. I did not mean to suggest to Anthony that the main point of Tantric sex is to become some kind of sex God (or Godess). Obviously that would be missing the point entirely. I just meant to say that if it leads (as it usually does) to better lovemaking, then that could be a very persuasive factor to help get his girlfriend more into it, and be more supportive.
Having said that, there is something (a great deal perhaps) to be said, for a male tantric practitioner to learn to bring their sexual partner to higher and higher levels of ecstasy, even if their partner is not practicing tantra. I think this is only true if the man is the one staying in front of orgasm. Then, even if the woman is experiencing multiple orgasms during lovemaking, her energy, and purity, will automaticaly be raised simply by her being in such close proximity to a tantrica during lovemaking. This is discussed in one of the tantric lessons here:
http://www.aypsite.org/T50.html
I have experienced this many times myself. So I agree that it is not about thrilling babes with tantric voodoo, but there is an aspect to tantric lovemaking where both partners are raising their spiritual vibration (and the purity of their nervous system), and this works even if it is only the man who is staying in front of orgasm.
quote:
How can you fake an ejaculation? Unless you do something really clever under the sheets with a tube of hair gel... or?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're using a condom, it's a cynch.
I'm still wondering how you get the hair gel in the condom?
Only kidding
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on May 16 2007 03:40:28 AM |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2007 : 02:48:54 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
4. learn to fake ejaculations (I'm not kidding).
C'mon Jim, this is dishonest. It wouldn't be too useful to me if my woman did this to me. Honest commmunicaton is essential in all things.
With Peace,
Paul |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2007 : 6:04:47 PM
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Thanks for the motivation guys!
I just got done with a session and unfortunately ejaculated once again. I can be so pumped up about abstaining but in the moment my mind is like "just do it, Anthony. It'll feel good and you can just worry about it later! Go for it, buddy!". It's not easy. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2007 : 7:03:20 PM
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Kirtanman's a metasexual!
LOL! LOL!!! Dude, you HAVE to write a book now. Doesn't matter what's in it. Just put that in the title. Trust me on this. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2007 : 7:07:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
I did not mean to suggest to Anthony that the main point of Tantric sex is to become some kind of sex God (or Godess). Obviously that would be missing the point entirely
I wasn't saying you did...was just trying to dispel a perfectly understandable potential misunderstanding.
I've never had a woman ask to inspect condoms after, um, sessions, so I've never had to lard in the hair gel! Can we stop using the term "hair gel" now? It's always been an icky term, and now it's starting to give me a complex..... |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2007 : 7:10:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lucidinterval1
[quote]Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
4. learn to fake ejaculations (I'm not kidding).
C'mon Jim, this is dishonest. It wouldn't be too useful to me if my woman did this to me. Honest commmunicaton is essential in all things.
You're right, of course. OTOH, it's a relative minor bit of dishonesty. It's not like I'm asked to fill out a log afterwards, listing orgasms. If asked, i wouldn't lie. But a bit of thrashing drama can express honest ardor as well as serve the purpose of blurring the nature of the "climax". |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2007 : 7:18:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by anthony574
Thanks for the motivation guys!
I just got done with a session and unfortunately ejaculated once again. I can be so pumped up about abstaining but in the moment my mind is like "just do it, Anthony. It'll feel good and you can just worry about it later! Go for it, buddy!". It's not easy.
Sorry to dominate the thread.
One thing to think about, Anthony. Get used (in masturbation may be easier, but it doesn't matter) to the notion of deeming your orgasm something transcendental, something rising up your spine and to God. You will be able to easily do this in the build-up, and it may get harder and harder to keep this view as you get closer. But remember: it's all bhakti. Feel your desire as bhakti. Feel the energy as bhakti. Feel it spread to your body and out to the heavens, making what happens "down there" fairly unimportant. It's a way of downplaying genital focus during orgasm without tackling the (much harder) issue of focus on orgasm, generally. I.e. where's the orgasm? What's your emphasis?
You'll find that the energy of orgasm will get far far more intense, and occupy a lot more of your body and energy (orgasms in the heart, in the brow, in the whole body), and the genital aspect will be nearly irrelevant.
The exact language I used may not suit you, personally. But you can adapt it....while also following the concrete suggestions in the Tantra lessons. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2007 : 02:49:31 AM
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Hi Jim
quote:
I've never had a woman ask to inspect condoms after, um, sessions, so I've never had to lard in the hair gel! Can we stop using the term "hair gel" now? It's always been an icky term, and now it's starting to give me a complex.....
O.K. I don't want to add to anyone else's complex. So I promise I won't use the terms "hair" and "gel" together in the same sentence again. Unless of course, an interesting discussion on which hair gel yogis should use comes up and I feel I have something worthwhile to contribute.
Christi |
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avatar186
USA
146 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2007 : 10:40:39 PM
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| Id say energy is lost, alot of prana type energy, not as much "fire" mabey? |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2007 : 05:20:53 AM
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"I dont feel any pranic energy or inner orgasms, so its hard to not ejaculate at all."
Hi Anthony,
This seems to be your main issue according to my judgement. If you learned first how to separate ejaculation from orgasm there would be less forced "must not ejaculate". As long as you still feel they are the same it will be difficult. The ejaculation is only a nerv response triggering in your spine. There are no orgasmic feelings attach to it. The orgasm happens in your head. If I were you I would first experiment with masturbation until you can get the orgasm without ejaculating. There is no point in stopping yourself from ejaculation AND orgasm, which it sounds like you are doing right now.
Mantak Chia is writing very nicely on this topic - how men can train this function and become multi-orgasmic like Kirtanman. See
The Multi-orgasmic Man
The Multi-Orgasmic Couple: Sexual Secrets Every Couple Should Know
Many useful practices and info on the bodily functions.
I was delighted to find a man who functioned like Kirtanman. I also believe strongly in this interpretation:
quote:
your girlfriend wants you to ejaculate because you've both been conditioned that "helping each other come" means you're both doing your jobs in bed.
There are so many cognitive schemas around what is supposed to happen during sex. The taoist teachings pick those assumptions apart pretty much. What about just kissing for a few hours? What about just exploring each others bodies with hands and tounge without touching the genitals, at least 30 min each! There you have high intensity sensuality and perhaps even orgasms coming without intention.  It is all about going with the flow and say YES to whatever happens and see that SEX is so much more than in-out and ejaculation.
If you start there and drop the forced constraints, the rest will follow naturally. With ability to get orgasms without ejaculation the art of sex and tantra will naturally be refined.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2007 : 9:13:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Kirtanman's a metasexual!
LOL! LOL!!! Dude, you HAVE to write a book now. Doesn't matter what's in it. Just put that in the title. Trust me on this.
LOL!
Ya Think?
"Just like 'Metro', Only With More Full-Body, Energetic Orgasms!" |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2007 : 11:34:16 AM
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| I thought that even orgasm without ejaculation leads to energy loss? I believe it was Yogani that referred to this practice as "training wheels" but still leads to energy loss, though I'm sure substantially less. I am able to do the perineum press but I only prefer to do that if I slip over the edge, but it still feels like ejaculatory orgasm without semen...certainly still the localized rush most men feel...nothing special. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2007 : 06:59:07 AM
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Hi Anthony,
I think in this thread, when people are talking about orgasm without ejaculation, they are not talking about blocking (pressing the fingers on the base of the genitals). They are talking about the ability of a human to reach orgasm with no ejaculation and no blocking.
It is discussed in the forum here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ID=781#12746
And in the main tantra lessons here:
http://www.aypsite.org/T51.html
You are right that blocking to avoid ejaculation during orgasm is a training wheels stage, and does still result in energy loss. Orgasm without ejaculation and with no blocking is something that happens automatically as the sexual energies become more refined through tantra practices. |
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How necessary is Ejaculatory abstinence
