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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 13 2007 : 10:24:54 AM
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Hello all,
I have been meditating almost daily now for about 4 years. However, I seem to have got trapped in what feels like an endless "dark Night of the Soul." I had hoped that perseverance would pay off and that a sense of equanimity would emerge. Unfortunately, it hasn't. If anything my general level of anxiety seems higher than ever. I feel I must be doing something wrong, and have prayed about this. I don't like to just give up. Can anyone advise me? I am considering giving up all spiritual practice, but this seems a drastic step to take. I would really appreciate some guidance, but I don't know where best to find it. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2007 : 10:41:58 AM
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Hello HM and welcome to the forum!
What type of meditation have you been practicing for about 4 years? |
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2007 : 10:56:55 AM
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Hi Weaver,
Thank you. I started off just counting breaths (1 to 10, then back to 1 again). Then I began to use Kriya techniques taught to me by e-mail. I had some scary experiences (including feeling that I could fly), so I ceased all Kriyas! Since then I have been meditating on emptiness on the out breath, and not doing anything on the in breath. I believe this is Formless Meditation, and I found this technique on a Buddhist website. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2007 : 11:19:54 AM
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| I don't think concentrating on the breathing in the Buddhist fashion is anywhere near as effective as the I AM mantra. This is my personal opinion though. Everyone is a little different. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2007 : 11:27:52 AM
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Hi again HM,
(Hope you don't mind abbreviating your present user ID, since I don't think it will hold up in the long run!  ) I don't have any experience in Formless Meditation of the type you describe - on emptiness on the outbreath, and not doing anything on the inbreath. Hopefully someone else here could give you some insight on how this could have caused feelings of anxiety etc. Sorry to hear about this.
In any case, I don't think it would be a good idea either to give up all spiritual practice. What we do in AYP is deep meditation, introduced here: http://www.aypsite.org/13.html and as far as I know it is not known to cause negative feelings or states of mind like you describe over the long term. Perhaps you may want to consider changing your method of meditation into deep meditation?
Best wishes! |
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2007 : 12:12:51 PM
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| Thank you weaver and gumpi for the helpful advice. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2007 : 9:36:55 PM
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Hi HM,
How much meditation are you doing?
It sounds like you might be meditating too much or too long, are you resting after practice? Any of these three scenarios can lead to symptoms of over-purification, which could be what you are describing. Meditation doesn't typically produce feelings like you describe unless you are over-doing it in some way. It is very important for most meditators to rest after practice for at least 5 minutes before they get up and return to normal daily activity otherwise some of the stirred up emotional energy can trigger emotional unrest as you describe.
Of course you will find a lot bias here for the AYP style of meditation particularly since many of us came from other types of meditation practices before hand and find AYP to be incredibly effective. It might be worth you exploring some of the methods presented here, see what you think:
http://www.aypsite.org/MainDirectory.html
Good luck to you!
A
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2007 : 04:33:38 AM
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Hi Anthem,
I sit for up to an hour a day (usually about 45 minutes). I also end up having lots of doubts about which method to use. I worry about generating bad habits purely accidentally, by virtue of being self taught. I have wondered whether to formally take refuge with a Buddhist teacher, but finding one has been problematic. At the moment I am just feeling intensely frustrated. I seem to be generating lots of obstacles to practice! I am finding this really distressing.
I will drastically reduce the time I sit, consider proper method, and allow time to rest afterwards as you suggest. Thank you for taking an interest and offering the benefit of your experience. Your comments are much appreciated. |
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snake
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2007 : 2:41:21 PM
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Hi HM,
I used to do the same as you and mix and match and flit from one practice to another,whilst it was good experience I never felt settled on a practice.
Now I just do 2x 20 mins a day mantra practice and leave it at that.I feel so much better now.
Sometimes the desire to be free can entangle one more.
I wish you well |
Edited by - snake on Mar 14 2007 2:45:03 PM |
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Jack
United Kingdom
305 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2007 : 3:38:38 PM
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Hello HM,
Similar here - I used to practice hours of mindful breathing a day.
I made several choices/mistakes that were bad for me at that time. I would sit for long periods. I would not ensure adequate rest afterwards. I would become forceful during the sitting, sometimes. I would long for the states of clarity and pleasure.
I found myself extremely emotionally sensitive to what was negative around me. I had no 'skin' if you will.
I became averse and anxious around anything stimulating - noise, bright light, human energies.
I could not integrate the clarity with the everyday.
And life became more confusing and more painful - personally, existentially, socially.
Many of my sittings would involve simply becoming very aware of my pain - not in a productive, mindful way, but in a 'sucked in' kind of way. And sometimes I would sit with the pain in emptiness - and delve so deep into my pain that later after sitting when equanimity had faded, this resurfaced material would torture me.
What really helped me snap out of this with AYP is:
Go in for your twenty minutes twice a day for deep meditation.. and then COME BACK OUT and LIVE YOUR DAY. Do not strive for the clear awareness - as the nervous system opens that awareness will arise within our everyday consciousness - AS WE ARE READY.
Just shifting my daily intent from 'witnessing everything as empty' to 'live my life' has helped a lot...
How are other parts of your life? Anything you dislike and are avoiding? Escaping into emptiness is something I know.
I have found AYP a really useful tool in this time of my life. Perhaps you will too.
Jack
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2007 : 03:37:48 AM
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Hi HM,
Welcome to the forum,
quote:
Hello all,
I have been meditating almost daily now for about 4 years. However, I seem to have got trapped in what feels like an endless "dark Night of the Soul." I had hoped that perseverance would pay off and that a sense of equanimity would emerge. Unfortunately, it hasn't. If anything my general level of anxiety seems higher than ever. I feel I must be doing something wrong, and have prayed about this. I don't like to just give up. Can anyone advise me? I am considering giving up all spiritual practice, but this seems a drastic step to take. I would really appreciate some guidance, but I don't know where best to find it.
You've got some great advice so far, so I thought I'd chime in with some more.
Just to start with, I think it's important to realize that this is a long haul. Meditation takes time, lots of time. We are dealing with a lifetime of conditioning, stuff, issues, whatever you want to call it, and it needs to be cleared out bit by bit. 4 years of meditation sitting for 45 minutes a day (if that is what you have been doing) is not really a long time. I was on a Buddhist retreat once and the monk leading the retreat had been a monk for about 15 years. He was describing the process of mindfulness meditation that was being practiced on the retreat, using the breath as a meditation object. He described how the mind becomes calmer and eventually silent, and we experience peace and equinimity and joy (he didn't even mention exstacy, bliss or love- that's Buddhists for you). The retreat was for 10 days, and I was quite exited about experiencing some of these things (naturally) and I wondered which day of the retreat I would start to experience them. So I asked him how long it would take. He was quite surprised by the question (he probably realized I was new to this), and he said, "Well, if you are talking about how long it takes before we can be completely aware of a single breath, from the beginning of the moment of inhalation, through the pause before exhalation, to the end of exhalation, in my case it was about two years". That's two years living as a monk in a monestary. At the time I hoped he was joking, but now I realize that he wasn't.
Meditating on emptiness (or the formless/ the unconditioned) is quite an advanced (powerful) meditation practice. The Buddha taught that there were four objects of mindfullness: the breath, the body, the objects of the mind, and pure awareness (the unconditioned mind). Your meditation would come under the last of those. They are usually taught in sequence, spending many years on each object before progressing to the next. It is possible that you might be better off using a different object of meditation at this stage (like the breath on it's own).
But here's the best advice I can give you. Buy the "Advanced Yoga Practices, Easy Lessons for Ecstatic Living" book by Yogani, and read it from start to finish. Most of the lessons are available on this website, but if you try and read all that online you will probably do your eyesight in and end up with a headache! It is likeley that it will change your whole approach to meditation, and to spiritual practice in general, and probably your life. Meditation is just the beginning.....
Hope this helps.
Christi
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2007 : 04:47:48 AM
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Wow, this Forum is amazing! Jack, your description is eerily accurate. I do feel as if I have "no skin" and am aversive and anxious around stimuli, exactly as you describe. Life has indeed become confusing and I am avoiding it by attempting to escape into emptiness.
Christi and snake, very insightful comments. I hadn't realised that the emptiness meditation was an advanced practice, or I wouldn't have attempted it. I will print out all the advice posted and implement changes. Thank you for your comments. I have found them all very useful indeed. |
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snake
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2007 : 2:35:13 PM
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Hey Hm,
I know your'e gonna be just fine because you have the enthusiasm that this journey needs ,that is a great gift along with your warm heart |
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Jack
United Kingdom
305 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2007 : 4:05:34 PM
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You'll be fine HM.
Any questions, feel free to ask. This group seems very experienced and wise. |
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2007 : 1:04:54 PM
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| Thank you all for your warm welcome and encouragement. I'm sure I'll be back with further questions before long. It is great to be able to ask for advice here! |
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Yoda
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2007 : 09:07:31 AM
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| Outstanding post, Jack. Nicely articulated and put several thoughts in better order for me. Thanks! |
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Yoda
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2007 : 09:25:30 AM
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More thoughts about that post... all that formless practice and that trying to be spiritual and aware...takes me back in the time machine!! I forgot about all that!
I wonder why AYP is such an improvement in this department. Sure, not as much time is dedicated to practicing and less chance to overload. It seems like the technique isn't as open to outside influences... more insulated than the just sitting in awareness angle.
In AYP my mind feels "deep" or "inward" somehow in a way that the normal life doesn't impinge upon as long as there's a good transition between meditation and non-meditation. But that awareness type meditation my awareness felt "out in the world" where an incredible sensitivity to the slightest stimulation develops.
People who are drawn to meditation are often sensitive to begin with... so I can see the situation getting a bit out of hand. Or just that the increased sensitivity really opens you to getting pretty beat up out there thus reducing some of the potential progress made by that technique. Perhaps the openness/awareness meditation is best left to the tranquility of the monastery. |
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Yoda
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2007 : 09:33:08 AM
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| Just one more thought from Jack's post... maybe its no coincidence that many schools who practice awareness meditation really make a big deal of suffering in their philosophies. Could be a rather accurate part of the experience of their path, possibly. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2007 : 04:25:35 AM
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Hi Yoda
quote:
Just one more thought from Jack's post... maybe its no coincidence that many schools who practice awareness meditation really make a big deal of suffering in their philosophies. Could be a rather accurate part of the experience of their path, possibly.
Love it  |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2007 : 11:52:20 AM
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Hi HM!
Welcome to the Forum!
You might consider reading the wealth of material that Yogani has so generously provided in his Lessons on this site. I'm certain that you'd find many answers to your questions there.
Additionally, you may also find some thoughts that are specifically relative to your inner struggles in the various writings from different spiritual traditions which have been posted in the 'Other Spiritual Systems' section of this forum in the thread entitled 'Spiritual Combat on the Path to Illumination'. 
Light to All!
Doc |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2007 : 11:55:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hopeless meditator
I seem to have got trapped in what feels like an endless "dark Night of the Soul."
Dear HM,
I came here to the AYP with the same problem. Always irritable. Like you I was using an objectless type of meditation. There is a lot of this kind of meditation being taught and I believe that because there is a general aversion to bliss consciousness in Buddhist circles there is a large population of meditators who are not happy campers. Becaue of this, I have been trying other routes and have finally stumbled on Yogani's site here.
Using the 20 min twice a day (with some pranayama too) and self pacing has helped me a lot. I get to experience more pleasant sessions than before and pretty consistent progress toward inner stillness. Sometimes it is really wonderful. However, what has helped me even more is knowing that even when I have a "horrible" meditation I am doing good because I am clearing out the yuck and I can take it all in stride.
Am I less cranky in daily life? You would have to ask my family, plus it has only been about 3 months. Some say it takes a long time especially if we have a lot of blockages. I have a lot of negative stuff inside and out but feel relief more often than before. And I can hardly wait until my next meditation. BTW I used to meditate at least 2 hours each day sometimes more.
Best wishes,
Jill |
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2007 : 12:47:11 PM
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| Thank you Yoda, Doc, Jill for your helpful insights. I am grateful to all contributors for their kindness in helping me out. |
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gmchaudhari
India
4 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2007 : 02:28:19 AM
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Hi HM,
I have evolved a fast track approah to internal purity method out of my own experience. I am confident that it will enlighten you on many aspects as to how to go ahead steadily in meditation. Once yoy go through this we shall discuss later. I hope you will find it interesting.
http://internalpurity.wetpaint.com/...ernal+Purity
gm chaudhari |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2007 : 11:31:23 AM
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My advice is something I myself followed.
First, ease the anxiety and other "coarse" issues with asana. Study with a good teacher (I like the Iyengar system, but any teacher will do).
Then, when your broader issues are patched up (and asana does have the power to achieve this), start AYP meditation for "fine tuning". You can read how to do it for free here on this site...read the lessons. It's amazingly easy and effective.
If your anxiety isn't so bad that it prevents you from sitting peacefully, you can try starting AYP meditation concurrently with your asana practice. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 30 2007 11:32:10 AM |
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2007 : 06:48:54 AM
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| Thanks gm chaudhari, and Jim (and karma)! I will look for a Yoga teacher locally. I have Iyengar's Light on Yoga book. Were there any specific asanas you had in mind, Jim? |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2007 : 10:20:56 AM
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No, not at all. Lots of people view asana practice as sort of a healing crystals type thing, where you select one for your headache, one for your indigestion, etc etc. Doing so is actually not silly....this is how hatha yogis self-cure themselves, but they do so in the context of a well-rounded practice, in which a pose or two is given extra weight for a while.
The entire practice of asana is healing, and it's very much best if you have a pretty well-rounded practice (forward bends, back bends, inversions, twists, standing poses), because what you're looking for is to balance and even out your energy, and that's best achieved by working all the angles.
There are very few sure things...I make very few promises. But this WILL relieve your anxiety. You may need to practice every day and really go wholeheartedly into this (while it's awfully tempting to take the lazy approach of just taking a pill or two...which is nowhere near as viable), but I promise it will work, you'll feel great, you'll start meditating like a champ, and you'll thank yourself greatly for the turnaround. These are promises.
Here's a list of iyengar yoga teachers in england (select your area from the menu): http://www.bksiyengar.com/modules/T...ntry=England |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 01 2007 10:26:31 AM |
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Advice please
