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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 24 2007 : 12:27:01 PM
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I am becoming more and more firmly convinced that when people talk about chakras and spiritual eye and kundalini that the experiences they are relating are due to hypnotic suggestion - whether by self-hypnosis or through reading or listening to mystical literature and persons.
Despite the fact that i seem to moan a lot here about my meditations not working, i think that i am actually quite proficient at meditation. The difference between me and a lot of other people is that i cannot be hypnotized.
I think that the subconscious can invent lots of imagery of chakras and things like that. But the subconscious is like a storehouse of all sensory perceptions that come in through the conscious mind and it responds to conscious thoughts in a very obvious way ie if you say habitually, "i am getting very well" the subconscious will translate that into a manifestation that becomes habitual. And so on. And so, if you read lots of mystical literature regularly, the chances are you will experience chakras etc.
I think i can back up my assertions with evidence also. Despite all the modern technology with have, chakras have never been proven to exist.
Now, before i get bamboozelled with people reacting badly to this post defensively, i would like to say that the reason i post this is not because i am trying to upset any one, it is just because i am searching for the truth, as everyone else here is. |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2007 : 1:37:56 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
Well I'm sorry to dissapoint you but some of the expereinces people get are happening out of meditation or a spiritual situation.I have experienced blurred vision like heatwaves before my eyes even when I was walking through a chemical plant when I was on night shift during the construction.I can assure you working nights in winter outside is not constructive to thinking spiritually, it's too damn cold. LOL
L&L
Dave |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2007 : 1:57:53 PM
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gumpi, I wrote extensively on this a year or so ago...you can do a search.
But I understand it more now. The more silence you have, the more ability you have to create enduring effects. That's what samyama's about. And that's the process hypnosis uses.
That's why it's important to meditate without expectations.....because the deeper you go into silence, the more you will experience whatever you consciously or subconsciously want to experience ("feel like a big crashing catharis of light and angelic singing is right around the corner? No problem...here comes..."). AYP smartly denigrates the significance of the "experiences" we have in meditation, in order to help us avoid that spiral. Keep returning to mantra. The mantra will see you through all that.
All hypnosis starts with a kernal of stillness...deep relaxation, whatever you want to call it. This is what gives hypnosis its power. So it's not that yoga is really hypnosis, it's that hypnosis is really yoga.
I used to practice hynpnosis and self hypnosis. I no longer do. As a mild tool, it's useful and not particularly dangerous. But the deeper I go into silence, the less inclined I become to using that silence to affect real-world ends. I figure that whatever residual vibe comes off of me during (and after practices) is as much good as I'm able to do anybody. Plus all the big and little ways my everyday actions, large and small, are focused and purified by my practice (though that's the exact same thing as the vibe that comes off of me during and after practices!). I just let that stuff happen. I don't attempt to "wield" it. Hence....no more hypnosis for me.
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 24 2007 2:06:12 PM |
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blujett8
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2007 : 5:48:40 PM
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hey gumpi
It's an interesting question and also interesting that you end with saying that you are searching for the truth.....maybe this is where I might have a different spin on things because while I am, in a way, searching for the truth, my focus in all of this is on my quality of life and on what I exude or contribute to others/situations. Over the past year, my ability to feel peace has increased dramatically. I'd also say that my quality of presence has shocked me and those who know me before I started my practice.....and it just keeps expanding in such surprising ways that I couldn't anticipate or keep track if I wanted to....the proofs in the pudding, I guess, and I don't spend much time wondering if I'm deceiving myself with cheap parlor tricks.....call it kundalini, 3rd eye, chakra whatever.....the results *eventually* are too fab to refute as "true" ....in my experience....
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2007 : 7:34:00 PM
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Hi Gumpi
Hey, you made me think, where can someone show that the subconscious mind, or the conscious mind exist? What structure in the world of measurable phenomena is the mind? Perhaps the mind is also a figment of imagination. And for that matter, where is the imagination located? I'm not certain, but I don't think the brain can be proved to house the mind. Anyway, setting all that aside, what is it that you are meditating for? You don't have to imagine anything to feel the breath go in and out and to reach a state of deep calming peace. That peace may be reason enough to allow oneself the pleasure of taking some time to sit quietly. Meditation shouldn't interfere with searching for the truth, it may actually enhance that search by improving focus of mind.
Alan |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2007 : 03:49:32 AM
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Gumpi: quote:
Despite all the modern technology with have, chakras have never been proven to exist.
Jim: quote:
All hypnosis starts with a kernal of stillness...deep relaxation, whatever you want to call it. This is what gives hypnosis its power. So it's not that yoga is really hypnosis, it's that hypnosis is really yoga.
Hi Gumpi!
I come from a scientific background and boy, did I have trouble understanding this yoga stuff! Not only do I have a research education, it also happens to be in psychology, so... you can just imagine how many of the theories on hypnosis, suggestion, subliminal perception, manipulation etc etc I went through when strange things began to happen to me! I thought I was going insane and nowhere did I find any scientific writings that fitted or were able to explain my experiences. The only place I found information on what was going on was in spiritual books or by people walking the spiritual road. For me, the experiences came first, and the explanations later! I had to surrender to the fact that, as Jim says above, all theories I had with me do not explain yoga - it is yoga that explains what scientific theories are beginning to capture! 
For you, it seems to be a bit the other way around. You have had some experience under such conditions where the cause of them are dubious. No wonder you hesitate on the validity of yoga teachings! I would certainly have been sceptical in your situation!
My friends who have no experiences do not understand zzzt of this, and constantly confront me with scientific arguments. I have no answers for them, but can only encourage them to see for themselves! (I have some friends who now can "draw qi", and gather a small energy ball between their hands and experience that, so they have begun to believe at least that there are some kind of energies in the world that we still cannot measure by any instrument.)
This knowledge comes purely from own experience! You cannot intellectually understand or scientifically prove this. Only see for yourself. And the strangest thing is that eventually you just KNOW. It is not a belief. It is not imaginary. It is not hypnosis or self-suggestion. It just IS what it IS and you just know it, and start to feel tremendous peace and joy.
I am so glad to read you are searching the truth! Go on searching! Please, continue to discuss here! And go on meditating. The methods presented here on AYP gives result sooner or later!
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Edited by - emc on Feb 25 2007 03:55:23 AM |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2007 : 10:26:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Balance
Hi Gumpi
Perhaps the mind is also a figment of imagination. Alan
Dear Alan,
No perhaps or maybe about it. Even science has come around to this realization with quantum physics. In other words even the materialists acknowledge now that consciousness is at the root of everything.
The question here in this thread is twofold, perhaps two different issues. Is there 1) anything "real" in the spiritual dimension and 2) is there such a thing as hypnosis that can create the delusion of something real. The answer to both questions is Yes!
I know there is a spiritual reality because like many others I found it without having heard anything about the details and have had to search for many years to find resources like the AYP that helps validate these experiences. I know it isn't hypnosis because I have tried it and it just isn't the same, nor any where near as powerful and it feels phony. The divine outpouring of love is something that is a never ending surprise and can't be claimed by any one nor can it be faked.
The Buddha in one of his discourses, was asked by a monk about all the theoretical stuff regarding infinity and cosmology and Buddha's reply was, "That isn't your problem, what is your problem?" He taught about suffering and the end of suffering and that is personal, very personal. All the rest is just fluff.
I liked everyone's response on this thread, thanks,
Jill |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2007 : 11:26:19 PM
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Hi Jill
And then comes the question "What is consciousness?" Of course measuring only goes as far as the separation between a measure, a measurer and a measuree .
I'll leave the above for my answer to number one. As for number two, I think hypnosis can probably work as long as there are still compartments in consciousness; if there are samskaras being harbored yet to fulfill.
So, in a way, I suppose that my answers for both questions are alike.
Alan |
Edited by - Balance on Feb 26 2007 11:50:16 PM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2007 : 05:07:46 AM
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Jill, your answer is perfect! It can't be hypnosis, you say, because you had experiences of spiritual things even before you saw or read about them.
I have to admit, i still find the idea of chakras slightly unreal. What i will say is that one morning some years ago when i was in a very devotional stage of life, i awoke from sleep and was in that borderline where sleep and awareness is. I lifted my eyes physically and then i started to see light forming - it looked just like a catherine wheel firework. It built up in intensity and shape and was spinning in a clockwise direction. Of course, when i noticed this was happening inside my freaking head it suddenley vanished. Then i remembered what Yogananda had said in one of his books about the spiritual eye manifesting, and my experience (although short) seemed exactly the same.
It was just a ring of white light that was fire-like and a dark hole in the middle. Yogananda said that the dark hole is called a "cave" and the longer you concentrate on it, eventually it opens and becomes the blue part of the spiritual eye. |
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Blue Opal
33 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2007 : 07:41:06 AM
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| Can someone tell me what is the difference between self-hypnosis and meditation? |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2007 : 08:17:36 AM
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For some religions, self hypnosis and meditation are the same. If you search on the net for self hypnosis, then read the beginning of the main lessons (link at the top) you will find that at least the method here is entirely different.
The intention should be quite different too. With hypnosis you are trying to trick your mind into changing for the sake of some worldly benefit. With meditation, you are disconnecting from worldly illusion, and again, it is tricking your mind, but in a much different way.
Why isn't this just a form of hypnosis? Actually it can be at first, if you are not meditating properly. You can reach a state of believing you are accomplishing something, and have it be totally illusory. "Expecting results" from meditation is one of the causes of this, and should not be practiced. What you are trying to achieve with meditation does not belong to the world of words, thoughts, and understanding. So when you have an "experience" while meditating that matches some pre-conceived concept, it could be the result of this expectation.
The real potential with meditation is to reach some state that you not only could not imagine before, but are not expecting. Not that it is a shock or surprise, as it is a gradual change. If it was possible to use hypnosis to reach a state that you can't describe in words, i've never heard of it. Hypnotists would be performing miracles.
Hypnosis depends on words to work, where meditation depends on transcending words.
The chakras are very real energy centers related to energy flow in the body that science does not understand yet. There are a lot of scientists working on it, but since it is not understood, and people who can control it are rare, they have trouble producing the repeatable results necessary to satisfy the scientific method.
The Meridians are also kinds of energy centers in the body and science has shown those to be real, although I don't think a formal proof has been written. Meridians are the acupuncture points, and an acupuncurist can feel them intuitively with his fingers. There are also electronic devices you can purchase that will find the exact same meridian point felt by the acupunturist. So we know they are electrical phenomena, but western science doesn't understand any more than that.
What tells you that a meditation state is real is the same mechanism you use to tell if you are dreaming or not. Dreams have many of the attributes of reality, but if you can't tell the difference, you are labled "insane." Reality has a certain flavor of consciousness that is lacking in dreams, and we can tell the difference because of a sequence of confirmation techniques and a sequence of thought patterns that is unique in reality. Of course that subject opens a whole "can of worms" about learning to control those sequences, but I can assure you, where you are in proper meditation, if practiced consistently and correctly, can be recognized as different than reality or dreams. |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2007 : 09:15:55 AM
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| I guess i don't know what hypnosis is. I see societies that appear to be under mass "suggestion". My Dad is a liscenced hypnotherapist (among other things) and wasn't able to hypnotize me. My only real exposure to what is called hypnosis is where people on T.V. shows are influenced to do (mostly odd) things they wouldn't normally do. The only times I can remember I've done what I wouldn't do normally (when my general morals or inhibitions say no) were times of intoxication and extreme passion. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2007 : 09:35:21 AM
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Hello everyone,
Interesting discussion about hypnosis vs. meditation. The main differences I see between the 2 are about will and meaning. Hypnosis deals with meaning, and the will is submitted to another person's suggestions, or in the case of self-hypnosis, to suggestions given by oneself. While in meditation, the will is actively involved to stay only with the mantra, and there is no meaning involved, so the mind is trained to go beyond meaning, which will lead to stillness.
It has also been discussed here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1078
and here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=505 |
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darrylc
Australia
9 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2007 : 12:20:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
I am becoming more and more firmly convinced that when people talk about chakras and spiritual eye and kundalini that the experiences they are relating are due to hypnotic suggestion - whether by self-hypnosis or through reading or listening to mystical literature and persons.
Hi,
I understand where you are coming from. Doubt is a thought that arises in all of us. For me though, it happened the other way around. I did not do any formal spirtual practices (at least not in this lifetime) but experienced a spontaneous kundalini awakening. I am from a scientific/engineering background so all of this challenged my then world view.
When investigating these experiences initially, I found Yogani's teachings. When I emailed him about it some time back, he called it a premature crown opening. A couple of years ago I did not have the faintest clue what a chakra was. These days I can get any of them spinning by directing my attention to them. Holding the concentration is the hard bit, more pratice required. The energies are real and from what I can tell we are all powered by it. You can't see it with your eyes but you can feel it within the body. When the chakras are spinning fast I see a big blue eye when closing my external eyes in meditation. I think I read here that this is looking down the sushumna nadi. This stuff (kundalini symptoms) has been going on to some degree all of this life, but I would dismiss it as muscle spasm, headache or some other excuse. It took a crown opening to wake me up :-)
From my personal experiences, I can tell you that chakras, energies ...etc are very real. The Buddhists call it postive potential and it takes many lifetimes of work to build up sufficient amounts of it, from what I understand. Just keep going.
Anyway, ultimately it is all a distraction in the end. Back to the Mantra ;-)
best wishes
darryl
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2007 : 03:17:30 AM
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Hi Darryl,
Welcome to the Forum and thanks for sharing your experiences! We seem to have made a similar trip. My scientific background put me in some trouble at the start, but has later on been an assett during my trip. A scientist must be open to new phenomena and be able to "think around the corner". This trained openness to the new and unknown has really been a help!
Glad you found AYP! |
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satyan
34 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2007 : 11:29:07 AM
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hi gumpi,
i would like to start my reply like this:
YOU CAN HYPNOTIZE THAT THERE IS A SNAKE IN FRONT OF YOU, YOU CAN EVEN HYPNOTIZE THAT IT HAS BITTEN YOU, BUT YOU CANNOT HYPNOTIZE THAT THE POISON IS RACING THROUGH YOUR BODY, because hypnosis can only produce a virtual cause not the effect. You can measure your experiences about the chakras from the effect to make sure that is not hypnosis, because hypnosis cannot produce "real" effects.
secondly, i am sure people who told you about the chakras would have told you that it is a vizualization technique primarily and your progress in meditation is not measured by the chakras. the real effect of meditation is the stillness that you experience and not the chakras.
people who spoke first about the kundalini, chakras, and third eye did not have any sources to hypnotize themselves on, so their experiences are real and they experienced first and then spoke about them.
scientifically, you can tell the structure of the nerve, measure the amount of current that passes through it, NOT THE FEELING IT CARRIES. yogic experiences are like that. yoga is like a set of instructions to follow that if you do these instructions you like get results like these and like any science experiment it can be done by anybody and you will get the same result.
regards,
Satyan. |
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Blue Opal
33 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2007 : 2:00:57 PM
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I am sorry I took so long to respond to you guys - life has been busy.
Etherfish, I did not ask for an explanation of chakras. I know they are real because I have already experienced them. I have noticed that I am highly susceptible to suggestions from my mind when meditating, and I often use this as an exercise to train my mind to think positively at all times. I was wondering if this is the same as self-hynosis, since I am using my own mind to change my habits of thought.
I disagree with the notion that meditation depends on transcending words. Unless you're a very advanced yogi, you would need a word, phrase or mantra to anchor your mind to some divine principle. Most people find it hard to empty their mind of all thoughts. The mind would rather concentrate on a mantra than not think anything at all. I have noticed that when I empty my mind of all thoughts, it starts thinking in feelings instead of words.
Balance, as a child I was open to suggestions from other people but meditation has changed all that. I can feel other people's thoughts from a distance, and I know better than to let them influence the way I think.
I wonder if anyone could tell me how self-hynosis works, and what it has in common with meditation. I am tempted to think that self-hypnosis is a "subset" of meditation. |
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Blue Opal
33 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2007 : 2:01:35 PM
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| I wonder how long I am going to be on moderated status. |
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aypmod2
25 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2007 : 3:52:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Blue Opal
I wonder how long I am going to be on moderated status.
Everyone is on moderated status except forum moderators |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2007 : 01:15:54 AM
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blue opal wrote:quote:
"I disagree with the notion that meditation depends on transcending words. Unless you're a very advanced yogi, you would need a word, phrase or mantra to anchor your mind to some divine principle."
When you repeat the same word over and over, it loses it's meaning, and you can transcend the world of words.
Notice that your inner dialog doesn't just repeat a word. It repeats the same ideas over and over, but using different combinations of words. If you repeat any word over and over, you will eventually doubt the meaning of it, the spelling, everything. So in meditation you are still using words, but the mantra causes the part of your brain that chatters to quiet down.
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2007 : 10:47:51 AM
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The chakras and such are simply an Eastern take on the human nervous system, and the chakras correspond to certain areas of the body were there is a special concentration of nerves. Same system, two different languages.
I feel you, gumpi, i posted somthing very similar. i have trouble believing fully, and if not for a spontaneous experience i had a week ago i wouldnt believe as much now. i had that "i am just not able to by hypnotized!" feeling...but im sure everyone on here isn't a new-age space cadet, most of the people here seem very logical, practical, and scientific in thier practice.
i recommend the book The Holographic Universe. It talks a lot about amazing phenomena, including mystical, and it's basis in quantum physics and what he calls the implicate and explicate orders of the universe. a good scientific take on real phenenomena. also, a good book is Rational Mysticism. |
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Hypnotic suggestion
