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Anthem
1608 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 24 2007 : 11:22:45 PM
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There have been a number of threads in this forum that have alluded to the idea that some modern day teachers and perhaps some famous "gurus" of the past don't endorse meditation practices and I was wondering exactly which ones?
Eckhart Tolle in one of his retreat DVDs describes meditation as the "most direct" path to knowing "presence". He also has yoga and Tai Chi sessions in his retreats too.
I have recently gone through an itinerary of a 5 day Adyashanti retreat which has 2 obligatory meditation sessions, one in the morning and one at night, with 2 other optional sessions each day. Miguel Ruiz’s retreats have plenty of meditation too.
I am currently reading Nisargadatta's "I am That" and he discusses the benefits of meditation repeatedly.
Since I am not that wide read on these topics, I was wondering which teachers say it is a waste of time or not beneficial? Krishnamurti perhaps? It seems the vast majority acknowledge the benefits of sitting practices to me? Any feedback appreciated.
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2007 : 01:59:26 AM
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Hi Anthem11, I think that Krishnamurti is like Tolle. Not as far as the yoga and tai chi goes, altho he got lessons from Iyengar, but as far as choiceless awareness of the present. Not labeling. Sitting and watching the thought stream. He really put down mantra meditation, tho. He said that it dulls the mind. Not saying he is right.
Best, yb.
Can't think of any that say it is unnecessary or unhelpful off the top of my head.
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thimus
53 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2007 : 03:31:37 AM
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Sri Aurobindo said that there is no need for meditation. But he is not against it! Especially he says that it is important after meditation to sit a while with closed eyes ( like here in the lessons). Finding mental silence, the "silent witness", purusha, is omnipresent in his works. He wrote "Essays on the Gita" : and here Krishna himself talks about meditation !
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2007 : 2:21:32 PM
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Hi anthem
Yes, Krishnamurti did teach meditation, and he was very clear about how one should go about it. A kind of choiceless awareness thing. He was against trying to control the mind using the mind, as he thought it was basically just setting up a battle. I don't know of any teacher who has actually said, don't meditate, although there are many who would agree with Krishnamurti about the battle thing. Amma (the hugging mother) said the same thing. She said when you meditate, don't try to quite the mind, as this will simply start the mind fighting with itself, instead, simply try to distinguish between what is real and what is unreal. Amma also teaches mantra meditation.
Even the hard core advaitists meditate. But when they meditate, they are simply aware and alert of what is happening. They might not like AYP meditation, but they still meditate.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2007 : 4:05:23 PM
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Yes, I remember reading Krishnamurti putting down mantra meditation specifically. I also remember him saying that meditation is essential for clarifying the mind (not sure they were the exact words, but 'essential' was one of his words). I would say Krishnamurti had a recurring tendancy to overreach in what he said.
Anthem said:
Since I am not that wide read on these topics, I was wondering which teachers say it is a waste of time or not beneficial? Krishnamurti perhaps? It seems the vast majority acknowledge the benefits of sitting practices to me? Any feedback appreciated.
Good question because I have 'heard it on the grapevine' too that there are teachers who say meditation is a waste of time, but I can't identify any such teachers. I do think the vast majority of (renowned) spiritual teachers acknowlede its benefits.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jun 25 2007 4:22:03 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2007 : 8:32:51 PM
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maybe L. Ron Hubbard or Lobsang Rampa? ha ha
There are many buddhist teachers who say they don't meditate; they do "sitting" instead. There is nothing going on during sitting. No mantra, no concentration, no visualization, no pranayama, no stopping thoughts. Just sitting. |
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snake
United Kingdom
279 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 02:42:48 AM
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Tony parsons says generally not to meditate.
Question to Parsons.
It makes me think of the way Vipassana meditation works, because that’s
also focusing on whatever you feel, or think, or experience?
Answer from Parsons
The problem one has with formal meditation is that one can be sitting in the
kitchen, having a cup of coffee, and then one thinks: ‘Okay, now I’m going to
meditate and be in This’. So what one is actually saying is that drinking a cup
of coffee can’t be This, it’s got to be upstairs….That’s the mindset.
In fact, the
reality is that everybody in the world is meditating.
http://www.theopensecret.com/ |
Edited by - snake on Jun 26 2007 03:16:26 AM |
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snake
United Kingdom
279 Posts |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 11:24:14 AM
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The problem one has with formal meditation is that one can be sitting in the kitchen, having a cup of coffee, and then one thinks: ‘Okay, now I’m going to meditate and be in This’. So what one is actually saying is that drinking a cup of coffee can’t be This, it’s got to be upstairs….
That sounds a little odd. Does anyone who does mantra meditation ever do that? Maybe with some sort of 'be in This' meditation they might, but even then, that doesn't seem like a good reason not to meditate. Rather it seems like a good reason not to meditate for that reason at that time.
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snake
United Kingdom
279 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 2:00:26 PM
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| I find it funny that he (Tony parsons) tried numerous ways to "realize" truth before he came upon it walking across the park.yet he seems to critizise anyone else that goes down the path that everyone must at some point go,whatever the choosen path may be |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 2:17:06 PM
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I don't know how much 'truth' he or anyone has realized, but one thing is for sure -- people may realize some 'truth' but be deluded about what caused them to realize it, or what did not. Because cause and effect isn't always obvious or clear. And there is major confusion over proximate and ultimate causes.
And so teachers over-reach in what they say, again, and again, and again.
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 3:22:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by snake
I find it funny that he (Tony parsons) tried numerous ways to "realize" truth before he came upon it walking across the park.yet he seems to critizise anyone else that goes down the path that everyone must at some point go,whatever the choosen path may be
That's a good point, I've thought the same thing. Reminds me of UG Krishnamurti. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 3:53:28 PM
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The logic of it goes something like this:
"I was chronically sick, so someone suggested I try healthy eating and living and it might help eventually. But in my third year of healthy living and eating, I just got better all by myself. So obviously, all that healthy eating and living was a complete waste of time, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone."
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jun 26 2007 4:01:21 PM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 4:01:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
The logic of it goes something like this:
"I was chronically sick, so someone suggested I try healthy eating and living and it might help eventually. But in my third year of healthy living and eating, I just got better all by myself. So obviously, all that healthy eating and living was a complete waste of time, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone."
Forgetful mountain climbers. 
On the art of doing nothing: http://www.aypsite.org/84.html
The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 4:14:22 PM
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Yogani said:
The third kind of
yogi finds the tools, digs the well, and hangs around for a while,
showing everyone who comes around the tools and how to use them.
Maybe there is a fourth kind of yogi -- one who is born enlightened,
has no recollection about the tools he used in past lives, and tells
everyone, "You don't need tools. Just be enlightened.
Unfortunately, maybe there is a fifth kind of yogi. He finds the tools, digs the well, and when the well is well dug, sees the water springing out of the ground by itself, and hangs around telling people that the tools are a waste of time, since the water springs out of the ground by itself.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2007 : 7:26:11 PM
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Ha ha both funny analogies, david.
I think some of these people have admirers waiting for them to say something wise all the time, and they just spit out anything. i wonder if it ever is said while being resentful of them hanging around?
-----------------------------------
Sure, everyone is meditating all the time. They are repeating the formula that creates their world view based upon their karma.
If they saw everything as perfect, they wouldn't be seeking guidance from the "experts" like this guy. How could you not see that those people need help?
He's saying the equivalent of "let them eat cake" (to the starving masses).
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2007 : 12:49:47 PM
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I think some of these people have admirers waiting for them to say something wise all the time, and they just spit out anything. i wonder if it ever is said while being resentful of them hanging around?
I think it's really quite simple -- these people simply make a mistake. What we are dealing with is a human cognitive deficit. Wherever you have a latin name for a fallacy, there's usually a common human error-tendancy behind it.
There's the 'post hoc' fallacy. This is a tendancy for people to think that something was caused by what went just before. There's an inverted form of this fallacy -- "if it didn't happen just after, it wasn't caused by it".
Some people may be expecting that sudden yogic 'breakthroughs' must happen during meditation. And therefore, by their way of thinking, if it did not happen during meditation, then it wasn't caused by it. But it isn't that way. The human organic system is complex. Meditation, like diet and way of life, affects you on so many levels. It sows seeds for change that happen immediately, or much later.
If they have these mistaken presumptions, they are likely to make these mistakes if they experience a sudden yogic transition at a time outside meditation.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2007 : 9:37:58 PM
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Also, I think karma can operate outside time. People believe in that consecutive cause and effect, but karma can warp that for maximum learning.
Also, the definition of meditation can be different for different people. If someone associates meditation with an abusive or painful event, they may try to construct something to aid people on the path that is not called meditation.
You could break it down, and reconstruct it in a different way.
For instance, anyone who followed Castaneda's books knows his techniques are quite similar to yoga, yet "God" or "meditation" are never mentioned.
In fact, that's what attracted me to them. I was sick of the way God was portrayed by organized religion. So maybe some of those techniques that don't include meditation are perfect for some people. |
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Which realized teachers don't endorse meditation?
