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enlightenmealready
USA
37 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 25 2007 : 09:40:26 AM
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**Buzz Kill Alert**
Don't read this if you want to stay in a good mood. I could seriously use some advice however.
Is there a yoga based philosophy regarding how to deal with destructive personalities that are in your sphere but seem bound and determined to stay on a destructive path?
I have some strong negative players in my family. I no longer feel their influence on a day-today basis, however it causes me some strife when I think of other family members who are still affected.
I really don't think the negative players are going to change. They are old enough that I believe it would have happened by now if it where going to. Certainly, I'm not close enough to be an influence anymore.
It's a "break the cycle" sort of scenario. Now that I'm out and can see a little more clearly, I become concerned for those left behind.
I should add that these situations are not physically abusive. They are more along the lines of wild financial irresponsibility. It seems these folks are more than eager to throw all their money away on risky propositions knowing full well their spouse will stay working in the salt mine until they drop.
How does one treat people that seam driven to consume every person or resource placed in front of them?
More importantly, what of loved one's that are unwilling to to distance themselves from these individuals, both out of love and pity?
Thanks for any advice,
EMA |
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Swami Vajra
42 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2007 : 10:24:17 AM
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EMA,
Detached compassion is a balancing act in the beginning. You are offered the opportunity to transcend your negative feelings about these issues. Each has free will and we can do little more than annoy others if we try to put our will on them. If they come to you for advice/assistance then you can be of service. Love them, forgive them and pray for them.
Of course, twice a day practice will help tremendously!
From my view and experience, this is also a point where surrender can make a huge difference. There is a Divine Plan, IT is happening and all will be well for everyone in the end. The YOU that AYP practices will bring you in direct conscious knowledge of is absolutely unaffected by anything your physical senses and individuated mind may report to the contrary. Yoga is the process of realizing this directly. Be of service wherever and whenever you can, those of us who dedicate ourselves to service must always deal with the fact others don't care what we say or think, so we let them be on their way and watch them with detached compassion.
Also keep in mind that as your practice deepens you will fully understand why the saints and sages can laugh amidst the crying of others.
May all your efforts be richly blessed, you and your family are in my prayers. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2007 : 11:15:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by enlightenmealready
I have some strong negative players in my family. I no longer feel their influence on a day-today basis, however it causes me some strife when I think of other family members who are still affected.
Hi EMA,
It is very hard to live in constant contact with someone negative... I know.
This may be a very simplistic answer, however getting into a daily practice of meditation and pranayama, will change things. How? It will not change the negative person (it may), but it will change your perspective towards things. With some inner silence you will view the world in a different light, where in everything is just perfect the way it is. Just because another person is negative, it does not make him/her a bad person... every person is living the best they can, the best they know how. Your job is not to change them. Once you get into a regular practice, you will see yourself changing, and this will result in the world around you seem more beautiful with all its quirks, and in the process you may become a big influence on changing the people around you too. (That is one reason Yogani says, don't measure your progress in what experiences you have during your practice, measure it in how you feel in your every day life.)
I know it sounds like I am trying to say yoga is a solution to everything.. and yes I am saying that .. it does not change the world (tho it may some day with Yogani's new Samyama Book), you just start looking at things differently.
Like Yogani had said here
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ID=1034#5869
quote:
Of course, we cannot intellectually locate ourselves in one point of view or the other -- not organically anyway. Our point of view from ego or stillness is where it is depending on the condition of our neurobiology, and we will describe the experience from that angle accordingly. Over time, the point of view gradually shifts as our sense of self changes from external to internal. Then we can say, "Hey everyone, I'm really here now!"
In truth, we probably won't say much, and just go do the dishes and take out the trash. Nothing changes, even as everything does. We are becoming "That" even though we already are "That." I guess that is why they call it "realization." Realizing something that is already. It is a becoming ... a journey from here to here...
If you want to look up some discussions there have been on being around negative people you can look at this thread.
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Edited by - Shanti on Jan 25 2007 11:33:58 AM |
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blujett8
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2007 : 2:53:53 PM
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thank you all for this thread...it's very helpful to me right at the moment. I've been practicing for a while and going along with life's challenges and they arise... just recently I 've found myself in a messy debacle with my father and what I perceive to be his control and negativity. I have this idea in my head of how I want to respond....skillfully...
and yet also recognize a FEAR that i'll be a doormat and also that this relationship dynamic is the root of much of my power struggles with significant people in my life....So of course I'm wanting even more to be present and transcend the situation and all that stuff...and yet I'm unsure of many of my choices while dealing with him directly....this is the stuff of life....
thank you for helping me process....this is different that what enlightenmealready was addressing, but your discussion has given me some clarity  |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2007 : 3:28:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by blujett8
just recently I 've found myself in a messy debacle with my father and what I perceive to be his control and negativity. I have this idea in my head of how I want to respond....skillfully...
and yet also recognize a FEAR that i'll be a doormat and also that this relationship dynamic is the root of much of my power struggles with significant people in my life....So of course I'm wanting even more to be present and transcend the situation and all that stuff...and yet I'm unsure of many of my choices while dealing with him directly....this is the stuff of life....
Hi Blue,
Have you ever looked into self inquiry?
If you are interested, get the book by Byron Katie-"Loving What Is". She has a wonderful system called "The Work".. it asks you 4 questions and then you turn the situation around. It has helped me and some of the other forum members...
As for a doormat..
I will quote from one of my other posts..
quote:
Yogani has taught me a lot of things through his lessons and emails. One thing he had said in one of his emails that got me moving towards this self inquiry thing.. that I am going to quote here.. maybe it will help you as much as it helped me.. (thank you Yogani).
"If we choose to let others use us as a doormat, they are not to blame. We are!
Practices gradually build our strength to overcome such things."
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enlightenmealready
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2007 : 5:47:39 PM
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It appears my question has been misunderstood. I am in no danger of being a doormat is this scenario. People I care about are allowing themselves to be used as doormats.
My question is how does one effectively convey this messages to people that can't or won't see they are allowing the scenario to play out. In my opinion, they are simply too preoccupied with the daily pain of the situation to consider other options.
I simply don't understand the Karmic lesson that either party is supposed to be learning. Both relationships are spousal. Is the doormat spouse supposed to "see the light" and dissolve relationship? Are they supposed to stand firm and suffer daily, highly intense arguments? I've seen that scenario play out for over a decade with one party until they doormat finally gave up and became a doormat. Is the answer for them to continue being a doormat?
As a concerned but distant witness to this drama, what does one say when approached for advice? They are simply not in a place where "Have you tried Meditation?" would make any sense.
Thanks again,
EMA |
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blujett8
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2007 : 5:59:35 PM
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hi shanti
thanks I'll look into byron katie's work...as for the doormat issues...yeh...I 'm with you and I take FULL responsibility for this tendency in myself, actually I used to be the aggressive one in relationships....treating others as the doormat...and around and around it goes while I'm in this process of awakening more and more...releasing would be optimal....get beyond the power struggle...and in many ways this is occuring naturally for me...and then my dad walks back into my life and BAM! I feel like I'm at square one....I'm not, really, but he's my core challenge
thanks again for your help-.Heather |
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blujett8
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2007 : 6:12:58 PM
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quote:
It appears my question has been misunderstood. I am in no danger of being a doormat is this scenario. People I care about are allowing themselves to be used as doormats.
hi enlightenmealready...I kind of took your question off topic....you'll see in my message, I acknowledge that I have done so....sorry for the confusion or distraction |
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enlightenmealready
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2007 : 7:29:41 PM
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blue,
No problem. I still feel my last post is valid however. Most responses have been about how to deal with the topic personally. I have however, successfully removed myself from being personally affected on a day to day basis. What I'm really looking for is a recommended way of being a good friend to those still in the situation.
All good people aren't always ready for discussions about spirituality being the cure for what ails them. I'm simply looking for a good fall back position. Simply disengaging seems less than empathetic.
Maintaining a relative level of detachment is one thing. Willfully turning a blind eye is another completely. Perhaps simply listening and offering support to the "doormat" is the best course of action. It would however help me a great deal if I could frame these sorts of relationships with a cosmic purpose of some sort.
As I said before, I simply don't understand which party is supposed to be learning what in these relationships.
Cheers,
EMA |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2007 : 9:15:46 PM
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Sorry for the confusion EMA.
*******Just one more off topic question...*********
quote:
Originally posted by blujett8
hi shanti
while I'm in this process of awakening more and more...releasing would be optimal....get beyond the power struggle...and in many ways this is occuring naturally for me...and then my dad walks back into my life and BAM! I feel like I'm at square one....I'm not, really, but he's my core challenge
thanks again for your help-.Heather
Hi Heather,
Are you sure you are back at square one? Really, look inside of you, do you really think you could ever go back the square one?
Look here for a Situation... that might explain what you are feeling.
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Edited by - Shanti on Jan 25 2007 9:35:38 PM |
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blujett8
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2007 : 9:50:17 PM
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hi shanti... I know I'm not really back at square one....you're right about that....
The situation you sent me too was very helpful-thanks for pointing it out to me...a lot of good stuff in there & lastly, I'm aware that this recent spell with my dad is a result of the fact that he has a problem with all the positive changes in my being over the past five or so years, since without our old dysfunction, he and I don't have much of a relationship....
thanks again- Heather |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2007 : 11:19:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by enlightenmealready
As I said before, I simply don't understand which party is supposed to be learning what in these relationships.
Hi EnlightenMeAlready,
People are often attracted to each other for other reasons than (or in addition to) love. One such reason is karmic patterns (in the other partner) that are in certain polarity or contrast to one's own patterns. Or, there may be karmic ties as a result of past actions together. For an outside observer it may seem strange that one or both partners can put up with each other, but the karmic patterns make them feel drawn to each other. And, there is often something for them to learn from it. For example, it's possible that an abused person may need to learn to, or wants to be in the situation to do good regardless of what is piled on them. (Like Jesus said: Turn the other cheek). We can not expect to understand all of these factors because we don't know their complete history.
This is not to make excuses and say that it's right to abuse another person. If you feel the calling to try to intervene and explain what you think is not right, you can do so. Especially since they are of your own family. But keep in mind that they still have their own free will and one can not expect to change others. Even if they may not seem to change, though, they have heard you and may listen at some level.
Best wishes!  |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2007 : 11:32:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by enlightenmealready
blue,
What I'm really looking for is a recommended way of being a good friend to those still in the situation.
All good people aren't always ready for discussions about spirituality being the cure for what ails them. I'm simply looking for a good fall back position. Simply disengaging seems less than empathetic.
Hi EMA,
This is a great question, thank you for it because it makes me reflect on the topic.
I've come to learn (the hard-way of course) that we can't change people who don't want to change. People want to live their drama out, it is there right, all we can do is accept them for who and where they are and what they feel they need to do.
When approached, I try to speak from the heart, I can simply offer my perspective, it is all I can do. I don't want to impose how I think they should live, how could I know what's best for them to work out their respective karma? When they ask, I find it opens a flow between myself and them and the right words seem to come to mind. If I try to take my ideas of how they should live to them, I am usually met with resistance which doesn't feel good.
quote:
Perhaps simply listening and offering support to the "doormat" is the best course of action.
Sounds like you are giving yourself some great advise.
quote:
It would however help me a great deal if I could frame these sorts of relationships with a cosmic purpose of some sort.
I wouldn't frame them or try to operate from a purpose or an agenda. Let the relationships be what they are, trying to frame them may be initially comforting, but will simply perpetuate your own ego based energy and keep you separate from your the natural flow and energy that will provide you with the wisdom and clarity on how to respond to them when you interact.
quote:
As I said before, I simply don't understand which party is supposed to be learning what in these relationships.
We all learn!
best of luck,
A |
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Mike
United Kingdom
77 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2007 : 03:53:20 AM
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Hi EMA
Well one thing about such a forum as this is that you get lots of different advice and can pick and chose
Anyway as you dont seem to be finding what you are after maybe I can present a different angle?
Just to be clear here I am just presenting ideas not attacking anyone (who may have given different ideas) nor am I about to start some long argument about which ideas are right and wrong... They are all ideas and we shouldnt attach to them right? Also like that old Indian saying (which I have forgotten lol) the Ganges flows east and the (er what was it again  ) flows west but they both become the sea
Anyway some bullet point thoughts:
1) yeh spiritual practice will help you (be more relaxed, approach the subject more skilfully, be an example for the family members of what is possible) - all good stuff  but ... it's rather a slow process and at a certain point in time you probably have to do some direct action;
2)a) one often hears the view in spiritual circles that "everything is perfect, as it should be" - to me, personally this is total BS lol (oops am I allowed to say that here?!?  ) - just look around at the world maaaaan so much pain so much exploitation (and not least of which we are destroying the planet). Also its not just ignorant little old me - my favourite Buddhist monk/author said the same (well he didnt use the BS phrase lol) in a talk (one hears the sentiment sometimes in buddhist circles too). Everything IS the way it is is the point we can all agree on (and we need to accept that (whilst at the same time going in various directions spiritually, practically etc)). But its a long step from everything IS the way it is to either judging or believing that this is some kind of perfection/plan etc.
b) putting the above more politely in kind of exam-answer mode the view that everything is fine is a *belief* a *conceptual overlay* *not* a truth that one can experience for oneself.
c) one has to recall that many of these traditions were renunciant based... based on a kind of withdrawal from the world of family life and commerce etc etc. So they are not really geared up to kind of practical "short-term" fixes but "long term" spiritual fixes. Or put it another way esp in the States there are plenty of people who both meditate and see therapists (different focus). To put it another way again, in Sufi terms a psychologist deals with the lower Nafs (kind of self/ego (roughly lol)) and the Sufi practices with the higher Nafs.
d) as an illustration of this kind of "even if you are enlightened you dont know everything" point (after all spiritual seekers are more focused on absoulte than relative reality as it were) Buddhadhamma magazine has a column where someone asks a question like yours and three practitioners/monks (different traditions, different people each time (I recall)) give answers... Its quite a hoot actually as (i) "Buddhisty" answers always seem to differ wildly, (ii) some of them are just so out impractical, (iii) which is the best (to me) answer seems independent of tradition and more related to how much practical experience of a certain issue the writer has.
d) taking Buddhism as an example there is an active debate/polarity on the whole "Engaged Buddhism" riff - how much does one "just leave the world as is" and how much does one roll ones sleeves up and try and change things. And of course many (monks) place themselves at various points along the spectrum. But taking a Christian example - look at Mother Theresa... she didnt just kind of sit in a chapel thinking "its all as it should be - it'll all come good in the end" . Jesus got out and healed the sick - he didnt comfort himself with beliefs that its their "karma" to be sick or that they ought to be sick etc etc
e) ok having argued for activism lol - just before you rush out, assassinate the president, stop war, cure cancer whats that saying about "Lord give me the strength to change the things I can and to accept the things I can't and the wisdom to know the difference"... or as Tibetans say "if you can change things, why worry, if you cant, why worry"
f) re karmic patterns Brian Weiss (an american psychologist) in his past life healing work really talks about how people are kind of condemned to repeat the same patterns (abuser, abuse-ee) until they break out of it.
g) I have a couple of good friends who are therapists and I gotta tell ya even when people *want* to change and are *trying* to change - it can be hard work for professionals to help them through it [mind you personally I would argue that therapeutic tools are a bit lacking but thats another story lol]
h) personal experience rather than words? Well no doubt like everyone here we all try and help others one way and another... sometimes it works [I had a friend who was in an abusive situation - she felt locked in and I guess I just gave her the strength and belief that it was possible to move on] sometimes it doesn't [I offered a lot of help to an e-chum who was wound up about all sorts of things spiritual and personal and it blew up in my face - she just ended up turning vitriol on me]. I guess the difference both in general and in the cases I mentioned is twofold - (a) timing - people internally may be nearer or further from change and recognising the need and *possibility!* of change and (b) whether one does things the right way or not lol.
So buddy thats a lot of words aint it - at the end of the day only you can decide whether and how you can help - none of us here can. None of us (even professionals) can help everyone all the time... equally I am sure no-one here is advocating total passivity all the time either.
Good luck and hope something in the ramble was of practical use rather than just more brain-fodder
Peace
Mike |
Edited by - Mike on Jan 26 2007 06:28:50 AM |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2007 : 07:24:11 AM
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Nice post, Mike  |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2007 : 08:34:59 AM
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I agree with weaver and Anthem, although I usually take a more active part(having a strong teacher and guide character). I do not suggest HOW other people should solve their problems, however: I do ask a lot of questions that make their minds move in another direction! That is a traditional coaching approach. I do not help them, I give help to self-help!
For example, I always try to direct the persons attention to themselves instead of their partner if they start talking about relationship problems. If they don't start talking, I ask "Are you happy in your life?" or take Dr Phils phenomenal question: "How's it working for you?"
-What do you want?
-What do you like?
-What do you don't like?
-What are your options right now?
-Have you tried to take help from others?
-What have you done so far?
-What has worked before?
-How was your situation when you liked it?
-What stops you from doing this or that?
-What are you afraid of?
And then LISTEN to them! Asking questions and listening is sometimes quite enough! I might add some stories of how I have previously managed certain situations. "This is how I thought, and then this happened..."
Byron Katies first two questions is also very good as a starter:
- Is that true?
- Can you really KNOW that is true?
It can alter a persons perception of the situation drastically.
If I see that something is contradictory, I might point it out, in a tone of curiosity, not blaming in any way:
- I hear that you say this, and then I see that you behave like that,don't you? ... (often followed by a nodding)- how do you get that to fit together? If this is your goal - what you really want, and you still do that... how are you going to reach your goal? I think something has to change - what would that be?
In my opinion, people will keep their habits, whatever the habit is, until their frustration is big enough. Then they will do something about it. Destructive habits can be very "safe" and well-known for a person, and new habits are scary. So in order to break an old habit they will have to be tired enough to conquer their fear of the new, the unknown.
I have always done this, but now I let my intuition lead me in my questioning. I listen even more carefully and ask things that feels right. Often people get insights about things they perhaps had never thought about.
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Distructive Personalities
