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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 08 2008 : 10:16:59 AM
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Gumpi,
I'm coming in very late in response to your message. I missed your original posting and only saw it when the thread was re-activated by new postings.
I made no bones about the fact that I haven't read the book, and I was explaining why I wasn't going to read it. If I see it in a library, I may take a look at it though.
Joshua said:
For example, his perspective on degenerative buddhist practices are just that, comments on degenerative practices. Although buddhism has merits insofar as it employs asceticism and pranayama it tinges these practices with obvious add ons from dark age thinking that we would be best to reject it outright and simply employ pranayama directly.
If he wants to comment on degenerative buddhist practices somewhere, he can do it wherever he does exactly that. But he's responsible for what he says on his website about Buddhism and the context he gives it there. I stand by what I said about it.
Sectarianism is a human nervous-system behavior. It doesn't dissolve in the Theory of an Expansive Sense of Self. It doesn't dissolve in the Theory of How Bad Religious Sectarianism Is. In fact, the concept of an 'expansive sense of self' can be used as a sectarian fighting-tool just as easily the concept of 'God' can. Can and will.
It is possible that his book doesn't have the problems I've seen in his website. It's possible that, on his website, he's guilty of nothing more than sloppy, insensitive, sectarian-sounding promotion of his counter-sectarian book. All that is possible. But for the reasons I say, this one hasn't made it onto my reading list.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 08 2008 10:24:36 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2008 : 11:53:45 AM
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Namaste Friends,
I may join this discussion in more detail later, but for now I needed to respond to Yogani's post below....
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
As long as we forge ahead with practices, organized religion (and every other institution) will be compelled to reinvent itself and play its role in bringing self-directed spiritual practices to the masses.
Hi Yogani,
I politely disagree with you here...Any business (and this is what a religion is, as they do not exist without financial contributions) will do what it takes to stay in business. This means in most cases resisting change. The entire of humanity can be screaming for change, but if a single corporation decides that it values profits over saving humanity from suffering, (which it will, because if it doesn't it will no longer be in business) then nothing will change. This is because a corporation/institution is not a human being. It has no conscience, no morals, and noone it is accountable to except it's shareholders who demand higher and higher profits every year. To hope that organized religions will play a part in the spreading of the individual spiritual sciences is a little idealistic I think. Not very realistic IMO. I hope I am wrong.
Love,
Carson
P.S. Thanks for allowing this post Moderator...wasn't sure how I could say this any differently (after a couple of tries) and still get it posted. |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Dec 08 2008 12:16:49 PM |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2008 : 2:12:36 PM
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quote:
The entire of humanity can be screaming for change, but if a single corporation decides that it values profits over saving humanity from suffering, (which it will, because if it doesn't it will no longer be in business) then nothing will change. This is because a corporation/institution is not a human being.
Hi Carson,
As you probably can see all around you, people of all ages and beliefes are getting disapointed with established religious institutions. They just don't fit clearly anymore. Hence the spread of all kinds of small churches, spiritual movements, sects, etc. People are looking for alternatives in spirituality. The old form does not fit anymore. Some are lucky and open minded enough to find yoga and applied spiritual practices. That is lucky indeed, in my opinion.
As far as institutions and resisting change goes, an institution does not exist by itself, it is mantained by humans. If humans do not cooperate with it it will die, there is no doubt about it. The reason that so many of us still maintain some of these institutions is because (1) people are still able to cope with it no matter how horrible they say it is (i.e., things are not that bad that they feel the need to change) and/or people find no real or better alternatives. But when sufficient momentum is built (i.e. sufficient people get dissilutioned AND/OR find better alternatives) then the old institutions fall. They must, there is no doubt about it. Then maybe new ones will come along, but that is another story...
YIL |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2008 : 3:10:22 PM
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Hi YIL,
quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
As you probably can see all around you, people of all ages and beliefes are getting disapointed with established religious institutions. They just don't fit clearly anymore. Hence the spread of all kinds of small churches, spiritual movements, sects, etc. People are looking for alternatives in spirituality. The old form does not fit anymore. Some are lucky and open minded enough to find yoga and applied spiritual practices. That is lucky indeed, in my opinion.
Oh yes, I can see this all around. But I can also see people all around asking for alternative energy sources but that isn't happening on a mass scale anytime soon either. Same reasons.
quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
As far as institutions and resisting change goes, an institution does not exist by itself, it is mantained by humans.
This is not necessarily true anymore unfortunately. Institutions were created by men yes, and they are maintained by men yes, but now, they run themselves. And because of this, there is noone who can stop them. It's like a runaway freight train in which the conductor, the only one who can apply the brakes, has jumped ship to save his own life, but there is noone left aboard to stop the runaway train. We built a world system based on trading goods and services for cash, and this created something we can not stop. Wild competition stemming from an intense need for increasing profits year after year in a market that is fragile at best. With institutions, especially corporations, there is one motivation only.....to stay in business as long as possible/continue to grow corporate profits. There is no-one person saying "To continue to grow profits we are going to have to cross the line into indulging in immoral business practices" but this is what happens BECAUSE there is no-one person in charge saying "we can't do this because it is wrong". Instead there are millions of shareholders who say "we want our yearly dividends no matter the cost" and so this line is crossed without a second thought. And no amount of human change is going to make any difference to this. Because it is not humans who are the problem anymore. It is the SYSTEM that we humans have created that is the problem now. And the system is running itself.
Love,
Carson
Edit* Just for an example, I work for General Electric during the day. GE chooses to make many products, including both health care equipment and weapons of mass destruction and much more. If humanity decided that they did not want companies making weapons of mass destruction anymore, how exactly do you think we would stop GE from continuing to do this?? WHO do you think you would talk to about this? You think GE would willingly stop making these products even though they constitute a large portion of their yearly profits? Do you think the US government will make them stop since they are the ones buying them? You could not stop this if the whole world turned on them and boycotted everything made by GE. Because corporations are driven by profits not morals. And there is no single person at the top of any one corporation with the ability to say "enough is enough". These corporations have built in mechanisms to stop that from happening because if it did, they would go out of business. And I use the word corporation to include organized religion of course. Hope this clarifies what I am trying to get across here. |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Dec 09 2008 4:00:30 PM |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2008 : 5:48:43 PM
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Hi Carson,
I see no point in actually fighting over this as I think you will stick to your point and me to mine but none of what you say de-validates what I am trying to say. Humans created this system, and the system does not exist without humans feeding it. It is just logically impossible. Take your passions out of it and you will see it clearly for what it is: a system run by humans, by all of us, you and me included.
It is not us versus them, we are all in the same boat, either people want to see it or not. It is not about GE making weapons of mass destruction. You are right, they make it for profit, but they make it because somebody else buys it. And why do they buy it? Well, if you trace it all to its root, going furtehr and further, you will clearly see that you and me are directly responsible to GE making weapons of mass destruction, as is everybody else. It is not a matter of somebody's fault over another anymore, it is the choices we, as a group and individually make. I believe in change. I believe because it is inevitable, it just happens, and will ocntinue to happen forever. So now the world is like this. We can argue endlessly why it is like this and not like that and then we will want to make it like that because it is "better". Later on (hopefully much later) we will find that that "better" is no good anymore and we will want to move to something else. Things are forever changing, they are neither good nor bad, but have only the colours we decide to paint on them. I just point to the fact that institutions are run by people, and we are all involved in it simply because everything is connected, it does not matter if we see it or like it or not. I try to do my part by trying to see it, live it, even touch the truth spiritually. I also don't "like" many things I see around me. Does that make them better? Not really, nothing really changes as we would like them to, as you so well point with cleaner energy for example. Things will change when they have to, as I explained above, when there is enough momentum. That does not mean I remain inactive. Not at all, quite the contrary, I do my part for what I believe is best. And I believe momentum is building. In the meantime, as I see it, it is better to be well rooted in deep inner silence, beyond the "goods and bads" and "likes and dislikes" of this world.
All the best my brother  |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2008 : 6:01:21 PM
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Hi Carson:
Institutions, religious or otherwise, can only survive if people are buying what they are selling. The ones that adapt to the changing needs of the people will survive and thrive, and the ones that don't won't.
The place where change originates is with the people. In spiritual matters it is pretty obvious what must be done: The people should have access to effective tools to purify and open themselves according to their own desire, individually and collectively. As the process of inner divine unfoldment advances, the institutions that support the global transformation that is underway will continue to have relevance.
It does not happen overnight, but it does happen.
Clearly, it is happening. Power to the people!
The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2008 : 6:38:37 PM
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Carson said:
Institutions were created by men yes, and they are maintained by men yes, but now, they run themselves. ... We built a world system based on trading goods and services for cash, and this created something we can not stop.
If you saw the British East India Company start up in 1601, before Shakespeare had written most of his great plays, would you have said the same thing then?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 08 2008 6:39:46 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2008 : 10:44:35 PM
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If you feel a company is immoral in their business dealings, you should not work for them, unless you are making some kind of continuous effort to correct them.
If not, then you shouldn't talk against them, because you are a part of it. |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 04:13:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
If you feel a company is immoral in their business dealings, you should not work for them, unless you are making some kind of continuous effort to correct them.
If not, then you shouldn't talk against them, because you are a part of it.
Hi Ether,
that's a bit harsh I think. Talking against an institution can be
helpful, because it points out what is wrong, thus increasing
consciousness in people, and then creating the possibility of change.
And sometimes pointing out the wrongs may be the only action we have
(at least for initial action).
Of course I agree, if talking against an institution is just shifting
the blame to some impersonal entity, then that is not helpful
and is avoiding responsibility.
The guru is in us
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 10:36:46 AM
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| Be the change you want to see in others. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 11:37:28 AM
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Hi Yogaislife,
quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
I see no point in actually fighting over this as I think you will stick to your point and me to mine but none of what you say de-validates what I am trying to say. Humans created this system, and the system does not exist without humans feeding it. It is just logically impossible. Take your passions out of it and you will see it clearly for what it is: a system run by humans, by all of us, you and me included.
I'm really NOT trying to fight or even argue with you or anyone here for that matter. Humans DID create the system we are living under, but that doesn't mean that we humans have the ability to stop the system. A+B does not always =C. We have built a system that has enough checks and balances that prevent any single person or single culture or any group with a single goal, from changing the way the system works. Each one of us is part of the system yes....but each one of us if we don't pull our weight or don't agree with the system are easily replaced or evicted from the system (jail, insitutions or death). This is how every major corporation and institution is structured. You can deny this all you want, but it is reality. No one person or group will be able to change this system. The spiritual revolution will not take place over the course over many hundreds of years. It will be fast and it will be painful. Like any other revolution. To think otherwise is overly optimistic. I work for one of these companies and I have been trying since I started to make major changes here and all I get is marginalized and demoted. Hence why I am leaving this job to work full time at a homeless shelter.
quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
It is not about GE making weapons of mass destruction. You are right, they make it for profit, but they make it because somebody else buys it.
You missed my point about GE completely. The only reason I brought them into this is because the "people" who keep GE in business are YOU AND ME( the US governement). The US Government purchases all the weapons GE makes for example. With your and my money. AND your and my consent. (basically) And it isn't ONE person at the US government that decides this is what they are going to do with the US taxpayer dollars. It is a group of people, some opposed, but all overruled by the elite minority. So what I was trying to say is that, sure, you and me and the entire world can be against the way things are running, but it makes no difference because in order to make changes the entire status quo has to change. FULL OUT revolution is what will create changes. Minor slow moving changes don't actually change the entire environment. They may change "small pockets" or sections of the environment in a certain area, but those small pockets are easily wiped out over time due to pressure from the rest of the "large" area to conform.
quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
And why do they buy it? Well, if you trace it all to its root, going furtehr and further, you will clearly see that you and me are directly responsible to GE making weapons of mass destruction, as is everybody else. It is not a matter of somebody's fault over another anymore, it is the choices we, as a group and individually make.
Exactly. But yet, if YOU decided you didn't want the US government to buy WMD anymore, what are YOU gonna do about it? Everything you can think of, but it won't make one lick of difference will it? And that is what I am talking about. You aren't going to get EVERY shareholder or even a majority of shareholders consent on anything other then increasing profits, which makes changing the direction of a multinational corporation next to impossible.
quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
I believe in change. I believe because it is inevitable, it just happens, and will ocntinue to happen forever. So now the world is like this. We can argue endlessly why it is like this and not like that and then we will want to make it like that because it is "better".
I believe in change too! Why do you think I am here everyday? I just think I am more realistic then some of you who think that organized religions will play a part in their own demise into individual spiritual practices. It just isn't going to happen...That is like saying that we can expect Big Oil to start bringing in alternative fuel sources even though they are making a killing by selling us gasoline everyday. That just isn't good business.
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 12:02:08 PM
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Hi Yogani,
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Institutions, religious or otherwise, can only survive if people are buying what they are selling. The ones that adapt to the changing needs of the people will survive and thrive, and the ones that don't won't.
Yeah but "people" are buying some terrible stuff these days and it isn't about to change anytime soon. And so in order to change what the people "need" you have to change the people's opinions as to what is "needed". And people are "sheeple". If one person says I need this, then all his neighbors need that too. But this doesn't seem to apply to spiritual practices. In fact spiritual practices seem to DIVIDE people more then unite them. Noone can seem to agree on what set of practices/kind of worship is best. (often even here at AYP!) And I don't think THAT is going to change anytime soon either. I wish it was as simple as "The ones that adapt to the changing needs of the people will survive and thrive, and the ones that don't won't", but in reality, advertising, peer pressure and more, play much too large of a part to hope for this. If a company isn't selling enough, they beef up their marketing ploys until they are again. And if they can't make profits again they go under....they don't change, they just cease to exist and are replaced by another, more immoral company.
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
The place where change originates is with the people. In spiritual matters it is pretty obvious what must be done: The people should have access to effective tools to purify and open themselves according to their own desire, individually and collectively. As the process of inner divine unfoldment advances, the institutions that support the global transformation that is underway will continue to have relevance.
Yes Yogani, but you can't instill DESIRE in anyone, and desire for union with God is the only thing that will push people to pick up spiritual practices. And until the mass population of the world decides that what they want is union with God, what you are proposing will happen, will never happen.
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
It does not happen overnight....
I disagree. If it is going to happen at all, it will most likely happen in a relatively short period of time just like any other revolution. It will be too easy to squash the revolution if it happens slowly over a long period of time.
Love,
Carson
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Edited by - CarsonZi on Dec 09 2008 12:24:17 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 12:07:48 PM
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Hi David,
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
If you saw the British East India Company start up in 1601, before Shakespeare had written most of his great plays, would you have said the same thing then?
I think so, but maybe I don't know enough about the B.E.I.Company or the time period. History isn't as strong a suit for me as PRE-history
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 12:15:59 PM
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Hi Etherfish,
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
If you feel a company is immoral in their business dealings, you should not work for them, unless you are making some kind of continuous effort to correct them.
If not, then you shouldn't talk against them, because you are a part of it.
I feel that just about every company is immoral in their business dealings. And believe me for the past two years (that's how long I have worked for GE for) I have done more to try and change this company from the inside out then probably anyone who has ever worked for OR against GE. I've even succeeded in getting myself demoted over the sending of unsolicited emails to the heads of specific GE departments telling them of ways I think they could improve our company image and focus better on more positive technology. But all GE cares about is how it looks in the eyes of the worlds governments and not in the eyes of the people. Because it is the worlds government's who keep them in business, not the people directly themselves. So you see, I AM making a constant effort to change my company from the inside out, but it is not possible. Even if I DID manage to make it to a position of high import where my opinion did make a difference, if I voiced an unpopular opinion, I would lose my position if nothing else. This is how big business works. If it didn't work like this, they wouldn't be in business for long. And like I said to Yogaislife above, this is why I am leaving GE to work at a homeless shelter full time.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Dec 09 2008 12:34:53 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 12:36:55 PM
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Carson said:
I think so, but maybe I don't know enough about the B.E.I.Company or the time period. History isn't as strong a suit for me as PRE-history
Carson, I'm making a point which, while a little oblique, is I think a very strong one.
Carson said:
With institutions, especially corporations, there is one motivation only.....to stay in business as long as possible/continue to grow corporate profits. There is no-one person saying "To continue to grow profits we are going to have to cross the line into indulging in immoral business practices" but this is what happens BECAUSE there is no-one person in charge saying "we can't do this because it is wrong". Instead there are millions of shareholders who say "we want our yearly dividends no matter the cost" and so this line is crossed without a second thought.
If you had been there in the 1600's to take a close look at that company, and with your current mentality, I think you'd have said everything you're now saying about the companies you see around you these days -- except that they would probably have been 'worse' then. Basically, I think you'd have said the sky is falling because the companies, the institutions, are bringing it down.
And yet the sky didn't fall. In fact, everything got significantly better. By almost every standard you can imagine, when you look at the history, things have improved significantly since that time of Shakespeare when companies were becoming extremely impactive economically.
So, may the next 400 years bring as many improvements as the last 400 years, when the sky started falling down due to the companies. 
Why do people have a tendancy to believe we are on the edge of a disaster when we aren't? Do you have such a tendancy, Carson? I think that the roots of that are in an emotional disposition. While the roots are emotional, the mind seeks something to blame for the impending disaster (or presumed existing disasterous state-of-affairs) -- and that thing-to-blame is the scapegoat.
Ironically, if a social-political movement is built on such a scapegoating tendancy, disaster does follow. Arguably, the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution were examples of this.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 09 2008 1:09:59 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 12:50:58 PM
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Hi David,
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
If you had been there in the 1600's to take a close look at that company, and with your current mentality, I think you'd have said everything you're now saying about the companies you see around you these days -- except that they would probably have been 'worse' then. Basically, I think you'd have said the sky is falling because the companies, the institutions, are bringing it down.
And yet the sky didn't fall. In fact, everything got significantly better. By almost every standard you can imagine, when you look at the history, things have improved significantly since that time of Shakespeare when companies were becoming extremely impactive economically.
So, may the next 400 years bring as many improvements as the last 400 years, when the sky started falling down due to the companies.
Sure this is one way to look at it, but you could look at a lot of things like that. Certain crime statistics, slavery, etc etc. but that doesn't really change anything. Sure times have changed over the last 400 years, for the better in a lot of ways, but for the worse in a lot of others, and in many of those cases it is just hidden a lot more then it used to be. What percentage of people 400 years ago suffered from deabilitating drug addictions? You could make this arguement in both directions. Sure 400 years ago it was no big thing to use black people as slaves, and now we think we are a lot more civilized because slavery has been abolished. But in my opinion slavery wasn't abolished at all. It just changed masks. We are ALL living in slavery now, not just the African Americans etc. We are slaves to a monetary system that we cannot break free of. This is perpetuated by organized religion, communism to fascism to capitalism, our education system, our penal system, multinational corporations, unruly competition and much much more. Things may seem more stable and balanced on the surface, but in reality we are in just as fragile a state as ever.
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 1:09:47 PM
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Hi David,
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Why do people have a tendancy to believe we are on the edge of a disaster when we aren't? Do you have such a tendancy, Carson? I think that the roots of that are in an emotional disposition. The mind seeks something to blame for the impending disaster (or presumed existing disasterous state-of-affairs) -- the scapegoat.
Ironically, if a social-political movement is built on such a scapegoating tendancy, disaster does follow. Arguably, the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution were examples of this.
I don't think we are on the edge of disaster David. The ONLY reason I joined this thread was to say that I think it is overly optimistic to think that organized religions will have any part to play in the spiritual revolution of bringing individual spiritual practices into the mainstream. That is just plain bad business practices. I don't think that Christianity(or any other religion) is going to start promoting pranayama, meditation and personal spiritual practices just because we want them anymore then I think that Big Oil is going to start bringing us alternative fuel sources just because we want them. They would be putting themselves out of business if they did and that is not about to happen. I don't believe there is an impending crisis to be avoided, I think we are smack dab in the middle of crisis (and have been for at least a couple of hundred years) and noone realizes it. I don't think that we are headed for disaster anymore then you do. I DO think that it will take disaster (basically) for anything to change, but I don't think disaster is immanent. Sorry if I was confusing you earlier.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Dec 09 2008 1:10:47 PM |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 1:19:37 PM
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Hi Carson.
Human need becomes purified as consciousness expands, and that changes everything. It happens on meditation seats, and naturally moves out from there. It is stillness in action. Nothing can resist, because it is the source of all.
The guru is in you.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 2:03:15 PM
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Hi Yogani,
I understand that human needs change as consciousness changes, but what I am saying is that until human need reaches a breaking point, nothing is going to change. When it DOES change it will happen VERY fast and will most likely be catastrophic for the majority of humanity. And organized religion will be opposed to the changes, not for them, if organized religion even lasts long enough to see the changes we are talking about.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Dec 09 2008 2:16:51 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 2:29:13 PM
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what I am saying is that until human need reaches a breaking point, nothing is going to change.
Nothing is going to change? Nothing has changed since feudal times, when 99% of people were ruled by gangster families and had short, brutal lives and typically watched a lot of your children die on front of you from malnutrition and disease, and maybe you'd have to go to war and maybe die to defend your gangster lord if he got into a fight with another gangster lord, and if you got maimed you'd end up a beggar and die at twenty-five, and if you didn't end up a beggar you'd die at thirty-five....
Carson, you've got to be kidding!
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 2:47:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Yogani,
I understand that human needs change as consciousness changes, but what I am saying is that until human need reaches a breaking point, nothing is going to change. When it DOES change it will happen VERY fast and will most likely be catastrophic for the majority of humanity. And organized religion will be opposed to the changes, not for them, if organized religion even lasts long enough to see the changes we are talking about.
Love,
Carson
Hi Carson:
It is changing, right before our eyes. The suggestion is to keep practicing (everyone!), and be patient.
The guru is in you.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 2:55:36 PM
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Hi David,
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
what I am saying is that until human need reaches a breaking point, nothing is going to change.
Nothing is going to change? Nothing has changed since feudal times, when 99% of people were ruled by gangster families and had short, brutal lives and typically watched a lot of your children die on front of you from malnutrition and disease, and maybe you'd have to go to war and maybe die to defend your gangster lord if he got into a fight with another gangster lord, and if you got maimed you'd end up a beggar and die at twenty-five, and if you didn't end up a beggar you'd die at thirty-five....
Carson, you've got to be kidding!
In regards to what we are talking about here in this topic. Not about EVRYTHING in general, come on man. What I am talking about, and I know you know this, is about organized religion's perspective on staying in control of human spirituality. Organized religion is not about to give up it's supposed monopoly on human spirituality just because a lot of people want them to. Like I said, that is like hoping that Big Oil is going to start implementing alternative energy sources just because we want them to, even though they are making a fortune off of us the way it is. Nothing will change (in this aspect) until human need reaches a breaking point. This has been proven historically over and over again.
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 3:02:32 PM
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Ok Yogani,
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
It is changing, right before our eyes. The suggestion is to keep practicing (everyone!), and be patient.
Instead of trying to convince you, perhaps you can convince me! How exactly can you know, or prove to me, that the spiritual environment is changing. Sure if you look at it from the framework of AYP it sure seems like it. But if you look at it from the perspective of the Christian church, or from a homeless person's point of view, or any other number of perspectives, things don't seem so rosy. How can you be sure that YOUR view of reality is any more accurate then anyone elses? (Please excuse me if my postings are seeming argumentative in anyway. This is not my intention, nor was it when I joined this thread. I just disagree with something you said early in this topic Yogani, and my expression of that disagreement has turned into this seeming arguement. Please see through the disagreement and understand that there is no emotion involved in this discussion, at least not on my end, and I am just looking for the Truth here. Please forgive me all.)
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 4:08:44 PM
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Hi YogaIsLife,
quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
It is not about GE making weapons of mass destruction. You are right, they make it for profit, but they make it because somebody else buys it. And why do they buy it? Well, if you trace it all to its root, going furtehr and further, you will clearly see that you and me are directly responsible to GE making weapons of mass destruction, as is everybody else. It is not a matter of somebody's fault over another anymore, it is the choices we, as a group and individually make.
The choices we make as individuals are no longer able to make an impact the way you say they are. For example. I doubt that you want ANY company to be making WMD right? You probably see no need for them, as do I. But you pay your taxes like a regular citizen correct? So then you are paying for the purchase of WMD and for their use as well too I guess. And every dollar equals a vote. A vote that matters unlike most of our political election votes. So if your choice is NOT to make WMD, how is it then that it is your (and my)fault that they are made? Well, because you (and I) are paying for them. Why are we paying for them? Because we have to. Why do we have to? Because if we don't it's jail, institutions or death. Basically. The system is running itself. We have no say anymore. It is not "power to the people". At least not right now, not without mass understanding and then mass organized revolution. And that doesn't just "happen".
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Dec 09 2008 6:39:18 PM |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2008 : 4:13:07 PM
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Yogani wrote:
quote:
Human need becomes purified as consciousness expands, and that changes everything. It happens on meditation seats, and naturally moves out from there. It is stillness in action. Nothing can resist, because it is the source of all.
quote:
It is changing, right before our eyes. The suggestion is to keep practicing (everyone!), and be patient.
Beautifully put. I also believe and feel this to be true. I can see it. And you ask how can you know this for sure Carson? By feeling it, noticing it, knowing in your heart. I know this will probably sound like a lot of nonsense talk to you but it is like that. The more you meditate the more you notice. Just because meditation makes it clearer to see, but in fact it is working all around us, at this very minute, and all the time.
Try looking at it from YOUR own perspective, within your own heart, not from what you think the homeless or the Christian church or any other person's perspectives are. Not even from your mind framework or whatever it is that you believe is right or should be right. Look within. Again, it may sound just like gibberish but it is the truth. Don't believe anybody in fact. Do you want the truth? Do you want to know "real" reality? Than if you want it bad enough it will come to you through the power of desire. It's true. I personally find meditation is a great way to stay closer to the truth.
Again it seems like one of those "divine paradoxes" - the more you look and know within yourself, the more clearer you will understand the outside world. IT is a beautiful thing. |
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