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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 17 2006 : 1:44:30 PM
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I totally agree with the last part that Scott writes. I wrote in another thread:
quote:
Whenever one feels one WANTS something one has left oneself. Whenever one has an image of the future in the mind one has left oneself. Whenever there is a like or dislike one has left oneself. And when this is applied on the sexual area it gets tricky. Because sex is so great and most of us WANT to have sex, don't we? It is perfectly okey to want sex. There is NOTHING WRONG in wanting and having sex. The whole world loves to have sex! But HAVING sex is different from MAKING love. And I have come to know that difference in my way, which I'd like to share. I do not want to persuade anyone that I am right. I just want to tell about my experience.
Most of the people in the world walk around being their identities, their egos. They have lots of wantings. Physical pleasure/sex is a great wanting. So our society is obsessed with sex. I do believe most of it is ego-based sex. Most people are not aware that they ARE, that life is love and that they are constant “peak experiences”. They deeply long for this love, but cannot find it in the world of distractions made to satisfy needs of the ego. So they compensate with sex and attachment. They feel separated and long for wholeness. When you are in the mind/ego you are separated. (“It is YOU that come and go”.) When we leave our true selves we feel separated. And when we do not see each other for what we truly are, we see each other as separate objects. Not acknowledging our true nature, we become separated objects and we try to attach ourselves to others in relationships to feel less separated. The sex gives wonderful pleasure, but is still does not acknowledge our true nature. Behind layers of fears, we walk around as isolated egos using each other as sex objects. The other person is there to fulfill MY sexual needs. To give ME pleasure. And we know what we like and dislike when it comes to sex. Preferences. It is all the ego talking.
It is actually simple, but it gets difficult to grasp when drawing it to the bottom line. The manifestation of the sexual ego is so subtle that most of us even don’t consider it important to our sex lives. In fact, everything that is mind-produced is ego-related. It means for example that the slightest thought of a woman's body, a glimpse of a memory of earlier girlfriends or sexual situations, pictures captured by the eye on a magazine creating a liking are mind-made! An inviting smile from a woman playing the flirting game is an action from a person involved in an ego-based sexual mind-made game of trying to GET attention, confirmation of being attractive etc. If you WANT anything... it is a NEED from the ego. It is sex-related. The way we have sex is usually to WANT the excitement. Excitement is ONLY based on expectations of what is to come... A sexual touch bringing the breathing to go faster is ONLY having effect if you have an idea of what is to come next. The glance of a beautiful woman is WANTING to have that "candy" as a picture in your mind. It is a MIND-thing. And there is nothing wrong with mind-things. There is nothing wrong with this. But it IS this.
Scott
quote:
Wanting to have sex with another person is the same thing as doing it, as far as your heart is concerned...because you're not focused and dedicated to the one you "love"...you're way far off in lust-land, forgetting about your partner. - - - So is that even love? I'd say, when you're lusting after women other than your partner, you are breaking the love with your partner. You're being selfish, instead of functioning as the singular unit of man and woman.
I really don't think Jesus' saying is unclear in any way. Sure, it's hard to swallow, but it's what he said as far as we know. It means exactly what it says... --- It shows where your desires lie...not with God, but with physical attraction to females. And a person could say, "But I practice yoga everyday and have tons of bhakti and still am attracted to women." To which Jesus would probably respond, "You can't serve two masters."
Lust is an indication of your karma.
By the way, this is also Barry Longs and Bernie Priors teachings... 
And just a comment on the difference of looking at a real person or a picture... Children used in child pornography and adults regretting their participation in pornography suffers from great pain due to the fact that they can never stop anyone from watching their traumas, over and over again. They know they can be regognized by anyone, and they know the abuse is out there to be enjoyed by others. It is extremely difficult to work with this part in therapy with victims. So a picture is never "just a picture". It is a real person, what happened on the picture is real, and the memories and pain scars are there. Shared by those who watch. When watching pornography, you can never know if you look at a trafficing victim getting raped or a woman participating by free will. |
Edited by - emc on Oct 17 2006 2:24:12 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2006 : 2:21:47 PM
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Hi Wolfgang
quote:
You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But now I tell you:
anyone who looks at a woman and wants to possess her is guilty of committing
adultery with her in his heart.
As I am sure you are well aware... this quote is taken from a longer saying by Jesus, where he takes the ten comandments of Moses, and basically says that even if you think, or imagine breaking the commandments, it is as if you broke them. Thus thinking about stealing something, or killing someone, from a spiritual perspective, is the same as doing it.
For me it is one of the most amazing teachings of Jesus.
David- I can see that the chances are that he never said any of this... or that even if he did, he was probably talking about something completely different, but in a way, that is not the point. The point is that this teaching has become part of the body of Christian teachings and the words have been ascribed to Jesus Christ (thus putting them way up there on the ladder as far as Christians are concerned). In other words Christianity today is a system of spiritual practices and beliefs, and it doesn't really matter who really said what, or didn't. The same is true for every major religion where the central figure has passed on.
I don't see why Jesus should have meant anything other than what is said. I don't see any reason why Jesus should have thought that adultary (or thinking about it) should have been generally advised, or for that matter that erotic art or sex before marriage were a good idea. He is not reported as being sexually permissive, or advising anyone else to be, as far as I know, anywhere in the bible or even in the dead sea scrolls.
My take on it is this...
If you are married to someone, and spend your time thinking about sleeping with other women/men, does that not make your marriage vows a little empty? Or more importantly, doesn't it mean that you are kind of saying something (I only want to be with you), whilst thinking something else (I'd quite fancy being with her/him), which splits the mind and is efectively a lie? And doesn't lying kind of strengthen our sense of separation? What if your wife is psychic... she will know what you are thinking...
Just some ideas
Christi
p.s. I am not trying to pretend here that I never consider adultery (or cheating on my wife as we say these days) because I do , just that I feel that it is effectively deception which is part of the game of the shadowlands and, like fear (and many other things), keeps my vibration low and keeps me seperate from God. |
Edited by - Christi on Oct 17 2006 4:57:42 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2006 : 3:55:40 PM
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Wolfgang asked:
I would like you (anybody) to elaborate on the ethics of imagining
erotics in contrast to being "faithful/unfaithful" to a partner.
Wolfgang, in my mind, if my partner has a problem with it, that's a relationship issue, just like if she has a problem with my staying at work too late, or (more likely) doing my own thing for too long when she wants my attention.
If I had an issue with her looking at erotica, that would be on the one hand a relationship issue also; on the other hand, there might be a developmental issue there for me if I was bothered about it. It all depends.
There is a lot I disagree with in what Scott and EMC said (and, therefore probably, Barry Long and Bernie Prior if EMC is right in saying they have the same view). What I disagree with is the broad-sweeping prescriptiveness: I believe that their point-of-view is based on personal preference, desire, and disposition, and is promoted as the way or the only true spiritual way.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Oct 17 2006 4:01:42 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2006 : 4:28:59 PM
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David,
You may be right that what I think is only based on my personal preference, desire and disposition.
You personally don't have a problem with your girlfriend or wife cheating on you? |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2006 : 4:30:39 PM
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| The way I see it when Jesus says "...anyone who looks at a woman and wants to posess her is guilty of commiting adultery with her in his heart." he is warning us not to be wedded to possession of form rather than substance. True conjoining is between hearts, not merely bodies. To desire physical bonding alone is to be caught in the illusion of bondage to physical form and unable to escape the delusion of duality. Personally, I believe it is my primary obstruction to freedom; I'm workin' on it. It's a hard one! |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2006 : 5:16:04 PM
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You personally don't have a problem with your girlfriend or wife cheating on you?
Well, by it's terms, cheating isn't good. It's possible though, that I could be in an 'open relationship' and it wouldn't be cheating then. Possible.
But one thing I wouldn't have any problem with at all is her enjoying some erotica.
But I tend to be very rational and practical on certain issues at certain times. Once I heard, for example, the fact that your chance of dying in a plane crash are less than dying in a car-crash, I wasn't at all afraid of flying. I was able to stare that fact in the face and my fear would go away. I can't do that with everything, but I can do it with a lot of things. And I could do it with her using erotica, I'm sure of that. I just believe, on a rational level, that it's something she might enjoy and it really won't mess up the relationship if I don't let it. It might even enhance the relationship.
At the same time, if people have a problem with it, they have a problem with it, and it needs to be looked at from a relationship point of view. Black-and-white, right-or-wrong probably won't help.
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2006 : 10:58:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Whenever one feels one WANTS something one has left oneself. Whenever one has an image of the future in the mind one has left oneself. Whenever there is a like or dislike one has left oneself.
For example the act of making love is for me a valuable action.
If this is my intent and motivation, then I assume
there is nothing wrong in having sex with my partner (assuming
that my partner also wants it). Now, having clarified that,
if I have a certain ideal in my mind about the state
of the most perfect love-relationship, exchange of energies etc.,
then that is a goal for me to reach and in making love and
having sex I reach it to a certain extent (and it grows!).
In such a situation I "WANT" to reach that goal.
I strongly disagree that wanting necessarily means to leave self,
I strongly disagree that having an image of the future in my
mind means to be separate from Self.
In my understanding it is one of the highest gifts of humanity
to imagine and create the future and not to imagine your future
would be giving up your creatorship.
I also disagree that "whenever there is a like or a dislike" that
I am separate from Self. I understand it as my freedom of choice
to like or to dislike certain things/situations.
And "liking" does not mean to lustfully/greedily longing and
desparately needing to have something, no, it just means to
make a choice for it (and "disliking" does not mean to hate/destroy something).
"Liking" means "not depending on".
quote:
Originally posted by emc
Behind layers of fears, we walk around as isolated egos using each other as sex objects. The other person is there to fulfill MY sexual needs. To give ME pleasure.
Sorry emc to snip some parts of your post, but I try to keep it short,
and hopefully am not misinterpreting you. To above quote I just want
to express that it is not my desire to fulfill the "MY" and "ME",
on the contrary, it is my desire to fulfill my partners needs
and to give pleasure to my partner.
Coming back to the topic of pictures: if a painting or a sculpture
stimulates me sexually, am I then unfaithful to my partner ?
Remember, we are looking at an image, not a real person.
In the case of a life/real person, if I am walking down the road
together with my partner and another female walks by and I find
that female attractive, then I could react in several different ways:
a) I start to think about that female, start to wish to have a
sexual relationship (to my standards not the thing to do)
b) start to feel sexually stimulated but avoid having contact
with that person, and soon forgetting about her.
c) express to my partner that I am attracted to this person but
assuring my partner that this person is not a threat to our
relationship (the ideal for my understanding)
Now bringing back the quote from the bible, I probably would
have "sinned" merely by feeling attracted to another woman ?
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2006 : 12:04:52 PM
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quote:
Now bringing back the quote from the bible, I probably would
have "sinned" merely by feeling attracted to another woman ?
Finding someone attractive and thinking about committing adultary are two different things, no? We do not have control over who we find attractive and who we don't, but we do have control over our fantacies. Would you not agree? |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2006 : 12:14:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
quote:
Now bringing back the quote from the bible, I probably would
have "sinned" merely by feeling attracted to another woman ?
Finding someone attractive and thinking about committing adultary are two different things, no? We do not have control over who we find attractive and who we don't, but we do have control over our fantacies. Would you not agree?
Quite so, of course I agree.
But that doesn't answer my other question:
Coming back to the topic of pictures: if a painting or a sculpture
stimulates me sexually, am I then unfaithful to my partner ?
Or may be I need to ask: where does unfaithfulness start ?
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2006 : 3:33:51 PM
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Wolfgang, all respect for your views! My thought is: can presence have thoughts about the past or the future? The past is one second ago, the future is one second ahead. If you are here and NOW, is there any past or future? I'd say no. Who is able to think about past or future? The ego. Thoughts can only be about past and future. The ego is the thinker. The mind. So being aware, being your true self is being totally here and now. Without future, without past.
There is a great trick in not letting spiritual "wantings" become goals. I really talk about un-doing sex. Then it becomes making love. It is my experience.
When I am present I don't have likes or dislikes. Because of one, and only one reason: There is noone there to have any likes or dislikes. The body-mind that has likes or dislikes is not "me" anylonger.
quote:
if a painting or a sculpture
stimulates me sexually, am I then unfaithful to my partner ?
I'd say unfaithful is an inappropriate word here. You are up in your mind when you enjoy the painting or sculpture. It brings you away from being fully present if you identify with the body-mind that likes (or dislikes) the object. If you think it is YOU that likes.
quote:
Now bringing back the quote from the bible, I probably would
have "sinned" merely by feeling attracted to another woman ?
I do not know what sin is, but if we define it as something that slows your purification process down, so yes, then lusting or feeling attracted to another woman would be considered to be sinful. It would slow your purification process down and throw "dirt" on the window you are trying to clean with meditation etc. That is my truth right now. Because it stirres your emotions, your mind and your body. It increases your identification with the ego instead of increasing your identification with your higher self that is totally uninterested in form in a sexual way.
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Edited by - emc on Oct 18 2006 4:45:34 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2006 : 5:25:11 PM
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There is a great trick in not letting spiritual "wantings" become goals.
Does wanting one's partner not to be stimulated sexually by 'another' ever get classified among the bad-wantings, the ones that pull us away from the now, or ourselves? If not, why not? 
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Oct 19 2006 : 03:51:22 AM
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It is definitely classified among the "bad-wantings"!!! Right you are! If you WANT that, and behind it is a wanting of the partner to change, it is a desire and will most certainly manifest as the opposite. As long as you have a resistance to such a behaviour in a partner you will meet partners that behave like that over and over again.
The possibility given to the person is to see and accept that behind the "wanting to have a noble partner" is a fear of otherwise being left, being ignored, being disrespected or whatever the main feeling is... in the end the fear often turns out to be a fear of not being worthy of love. So the task is to "stay in the pain" (compare the message in Fight Club) and see that fear and associated pain and work it through.
Second view or option:
Mind creates reality. If you think you are not worthy of love and respect you will not manifest love and respect in your life. Taking responsability for your own feelings is crucial. Not trying to change the other person. When the inner changes you will attract a partner that will match you perfectly.
Addition 20 Oct
Just wanted to mention that you know you are ready & done with your fears when you no longer get upset or emotional about such a behavior in your partner. In addition, it may bring the consequence that the partner will decrease the behavior - the urge will diminish due to more generousity and love flowing from you that will be more interesting.
OR... and this is finally a "coin that has dropped down" for me: It will so totally uninteresting to have the role of a "doormat", having to "put up" with such behavior, that you will leave the relationship. Not due to anger over the partner's behaviour, though, since it has been accepted for what it is, but due to increased self esteem and integrity. The lesson have been learned. The next partner you attract will most certainly not have that behaviour. That will be the "proof" that you have no resistance left due to old emotional garbage. |
Edited by - emc on Oct 20 2006 1:51:59 PM |
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porn ?
