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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 28 2006 : 6:10:02 PM
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Hi Yogani,
quote:
Yogani wrote:
As you no doubt know, thoughts (regardless of content) in deep meditation are part of the process, and easily favoring the mantra will take us beyond thinking again and again like clockwork. If we come right back into thoughts, that is purification happening, and we easily come back to the mantra again. This is a proactive process of going beyond thinking that gradually leads to permanent inner silence,
You are right... silent meditation does take a lot longer (in each sitting) than mantra meditation, so coupled with other practices, it could be a time consuming task. 
I want to ask a question about mantra meditation, but first I should confess that I have been doing the mantra meditation completely wrong from the outset. I misread this section when I was working through the main lessons. I thought that the aim was to recite the mantra a few times mentally, and then let it go to silence, and then after a while, pick it up again for a few repetitions, and then let it go to silence again. I am not quite sure how I got this idea (I am not the brightest of people), but this is what I have been doing since I started AYP practices more than 18 months ago. I recently re-read the first few lessons and realized that I had it wrong all along, but now I find it hard to change. But anyway, on with the question:
This is what often happens to me during the 20 minute IAM meditation (or my version of it anyway ):
I do the mantra repetitions and let it fall into silence, and repeat that a few times. After a while it feels like something starts to descend from above me and fall slowly through my body. At the same time it feels like my face starts to squash into my brain, like someone has given me a general anaesthetic that hasn't been properly tested yet. My mind becomes very expansive and I start to loose awareness of my body. It is very peaceful and blissful. To think anything at all is a real effort, and seems like it would detract from the bliss. Also, reciting the mantra seems like it would take a lot of effort and would disturb the equilibrium and silence. At this point I stop reciting the mantra. I have a vague feeling of, "the mantra is designed to bring about inner silence, this is very inner and very silent, so for this 20 minutes at least, it has done its job".
Am I on the right track here? Or would you say that this is just the moment when the mantra would be most effective, and I should drag myself up from my anaesthetized bliss state and keep it going?
Christi
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2006 : 6:19:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrina
Thank you all for your replies.
I only came across this website a week ago,so have to admit i haven't given the mantra a fair go yet.
I will try practicing it for a few weeks, then post my experiences here.
...(Would like to add a smiley face here,but can't find one!)
Welcome to the forum Katrina.. 
There are 2 ways to reply ..
One is by clicking on the "Reply to Topic".. and here you can insert smileys  and play with colors and fonts or
second is to type in a reply in the quick reply box.. where you don't have access to any of these.
Thanks for joining us.
Wish you all the best in your chosen path and hope you get hooked to "i am".. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2006 : 6:41:48 PM
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Hi Christi,
I am sure Yogani will give you a very good reply...
" Or would you say that this is just the moment when the mantra would be most effective, and I should drag myself up from my anaesthetized bliss state and keep it going?"
If you are following "i am" meditation.. AYP style.. the min you realize you are off the mantra.. you come back to it... so the answer to your above question is yes... sorry!!! But no matter how lovely the visions are, or how blissful the mental state is.. or how much of inner silence you are enjoying.. if you realize you are off the mantra .. go back to it..
Yogani explain the reason for this in his lessons.. and there have been other discussions in the forum on it... I can look them up for you later.. if you'd like.. Or just search on "losing the mantra".. |
Edited by - Shanti on Nov 28 2006 6:51:14 PM |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2006 : 8:25:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yoginstar
It is almost as if it is not only thinking “i am” but becoming truly aware of it (consciously focussing the awareness on it as well ) and becoming one with that awareness, in other words trying to conscously be wholly with the i am thought as it were. Or expressed differently: not as if you are you and there is a thought "i am" you are watching, but you the watcher starts to relate to the thought I Am and bond with it in union. Well, this describing it myself may be entirely clumsy, but....... my meditations have been soaring to new levels since then!!
This is something I have thought about also. Neither approach, as you describe them, seems to be entirely in line with AYP deep meditation as it is taught in the lessons. In AYP we don't care if we are "becoming one with that awareness" of the mantra or "are you and there is a thought "i am" you are watching". If we do either approach we are adding to the simple procedure of just doing the mantra. During the meditation itself we don't care about anything, except just doing the mantra. That may not be easy, since in daily life we are so used to care about doing things with a desired outcome as the objective. During the meditation itself there is no objective.
If it happens that we become absorbed in the mantra it's fine. This may be what is happening in your case, that you naturally become one with the mantra. But if it happens that we are apart from the mantra, that's fine also. Over time, we will find that the mantra will refine by itself and there will be residing inner silence, even if we repeat the mantra on a very fine level. But it has to happen by itself, we don't try to refine the mantra. Eventually, this process will take us beyond thought.
It is good to hear that your meditation is going well!
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Edited by - weaver on Nov 28 2006 8:39:48 PM |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2006 : 8:29:25 PM
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Katrina, welcome to the forum!
In addition to what Shanti described on how to make smileys, an easy way to make a smiley is also to just type in [:)] |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Nov 29 2006 : 02:28:16 AM
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Hi Shweta,
Thanks for the reply.
You are right that in the main lessons it does say to favour the mantra whatever. (I am not really one to comment on the main lessons, as I seem to see different things when I read them than everyone else does ). I just had a feeling that maybe this could be different, which is why I asked the question. I did as you sudjested and did a search on "losing the mantra", and it came up with a thread from Dec 2005. In the thread Weaver had asked almost exactly the same thing. In his reply Yogani said not to keep reciting the mantra in this case, unless the mind moves away from absorbtion and into thoughts again. Here is the link:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=678
Here is the relevant section of Yoganis' reply for anyone interested. (I found it very useful). (I thought I would post it here so that Yogani doesn't need to answer the same question twice).
quote:
Yogani wrote:
It is not necessary to keep picking the mantra up over and over if you are absorbed in it. It is okay to be absorbed like that. It is not concentration. It is samadhi, which is absorption in inner silence.
In Patanjali's yoga sutra's it is a three stage process comprising the last three of the eight limbs of yoga:
1. Concentration - attention on an object (dharana)
2. Meditation - dissolving of the object (dhyana)
3. Absorption - pure bliss consciousness with no object (samadhi)
All of these are included in our easy deep meditation procedure. First we pick up the mantra (1). We don't try and keep it as a rock solid clear pronunciation -- we just easily repeat it inside, letting it go how it will to less and less distinctiveness (2). At some point we will lose the mantra completely (3). Then we will be out again on some thoughts or feelings and pick it up again (1). Or, if we stay in (3) for the entire session, that is fine. We don't have to deliberately pick up a thought to come out so we can pick up the mantra again. In fact, if we do that, we have had a thought already, and that is the time to pick up the mantra instead (1). We can do this in a very fuzzy way, with the mantra barely touched as a faint impulse. Wherever we left off in clarity of pronunciation is where we pick up the mantra again. That is the easiest, most natural and effective way to be going inward. It is highly efficient. As soon as we become passive in the process (like "observing" or "relaxing"), we are losing the natural inward momentum set up by the mantra procedure. It is not a plus to diverge in this way.
In the end, concentration, meditation and samadhi are all happening in virtually the same place in the mind/body, blended with inner silence. That is where you appear to be in the process you described. It is the same mantra procedure going forward from there. No change is necessary.
Thanks Shweta,
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Nov 29 2006 : 06:18:58 AM
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Hi David
quote:
David wrote:
I agree with Christi in every way. If you have some ability to 'let go of thoughts' (which not everyone has, BTW) explore that for a while.
I never thought we were going to agree on anything, but just look at that!. Who would have guessed?. I think we may have a lot more in common than we first realized
L&L
Christi |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Nov 29 2006 : 07:39:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Shweta,
Thanks for the reply.
You are right that in the main lessons it does say to favour the mantra whatever. (I am not really one to comment on the main lessons, as I seem to see different things when I read them than everyone else does ). I just had a feeling that maybe this could be different, which is why I asked the question. I did as you sudjested and did a search on "losing the mantra", and it came up with a thread from Dec 2005. In the thread Weaver had asked almost exactly the same thing. In his reply Yogani said not to keep reciting the mantra in this case, unless the mind moves away from absorbtion and into thoughts again. Here is the link:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=678
Here is the relevant section of Yoganis' reply for anyone interested. (I found it very useful). (I thought I would post it here so that Yogani doesn't need to answer the same question twice).
quote:
Yogani wrote:
It is not necessary to keep picking the mantra up over and over if you are absorbed in it. It is okay to be absorbed like that. It is not concentration. It is samadhi, which is absorption in inner silence.
In Patanjali's yoga sutra's it is a three stage process comprising the last three of the eight limbs of yoga:
1. Concentration - attention on an object (dharana)
2. Meditation - dissolving of the object (dhyana)
3. Absorption - pure bliss consciousness with no object (samadhi)
All of these are included in our easy deep meditation procedure. First we pick up the mantra (1). We don't try and keep it as a rock solid clear pronunciation -- we just easily repeat it inside, letting it go how it will to less and less distinctiveness (2). At some point we will lose the mantra completely (3). Then we will be out again on some thoughts or feelings and pick it up again (1). Or, if we stay in (3) for the entire session, that is fine. We don't have to deliberately pick up a thought to come out so we can pick up the mantra again. In fact, if we do that, we have had a thought already, and that is the time to pick up the mantra instead (1). We can do this in a very fuzzy way, with the mantra barely touched as a faint impulse. Wherever we left off in clarity of pronunciation is where we pick up the mantra again. That is the easiest, most natural and effective way to be going inward. It is highly efficient. As soon as we become passive in the process (like "observing" or "relaxing"), we are losing the natural inward momentum set up by the mantra procedure. It is not a plus to diverge in this way.
In the end, concentration, meditation and samadhi are all happening in virtually the same place in the mind/body, blended with inner silence. That is where you appear to be in the process you described. It is the same mantra procedure going forward from there. No change is necessary.
Thanks Shweta,
Christi
Hi Christi,
My point was.. if at any point you realize you are off your mantra.. then pick it up.. if you are completely absorbed in your blissful state and don't realize it consciously.. then there is no question of coming back to the mantra.. because you don't know you are off of it now do you?
Well, at least that is my understanding of the process... all you guys are way ahead in the bliss land.. so maybe once I am there I will know what you are talking about..
Enjoy... |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 29 2006 : 10:35:15 AM
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Hi Christi:
Good advice from all, and thank you for finding that old post of mine. It saves me some writing.
I would only reemphasize that picking up the mantra on whatever level we find ourselves is the key to avoiding that disjointed feeling of being settled (in silence) and yanking ourselves out into a clear mental pronuciation of the mantra. As we advance, picking up the mantra becomes more and more virtually in silence itself -- very faint and fuzzy. This phenomenon of being both in and out of inner silence at the same time is also at the heart of samyama practice.
This does not mean trying to begin the mantra as faint and fuzzy when we are on the surface level of our thoughts, or as a beginning practitioner. We pick it up where we are. Over time of daily practice (months and years), the mind and nervous system become more infused with silence all the time -- a natural vehicle for it. As this happens, we find our starting point in deep meditation (and life in general) to be much more in silence. That is the fruit of deep meditation, and it leads to many other benefits in both practices and experiences. I still have not gotten them all written down! 
But AYP deep meditation practice itself is pretty solidly documented now. For more perspective and clarity on the practice, try the little Deep Meditation book.
The guru is in you.
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yoginstar
Netherlands
78 Posts |
Posted - Nov 29 2006 : 5:48:26 PM
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Weaver:
thank you, I understand! I think, because you say : "not caring about anything else but the mantra in meditation", which seems to me almost the same thing I tried to say, being with it, fully, wholly, focussing only on that, pfeww, words,.. and getting absorbed in it is the other phrase I should use then, but there is something else, this concentration of the awareness becomes one with the inner and expands and moves about, the I and the movement within is one at a certain stage, (which yes is blissful) but maybe that's the same thing as absorption? pfeww, words again...[:) , But you are right and Yogani is confirming it, the mere fact that I train myself (and it goes of itself now) to pick up the mantra again the moment I am aware of having lost it (after the absorption), is in fact the entire safehold for me, I have had crazy experiences of thinking I will get into a coma entirely in deep meditation, just totally loosing it, into non existence, (I can't help it, I can't find another phrase, and it scared me[:) nothing blissful about it and then jumping out, so this focussing on simply picking up the mantra is just fantastic as it helps entirely. And thanks again Yogani for that idea that I am now learning indeed to pick it up at the faintest level it is, AT THE EDGE (was that the word from Secrets of Wilder?) as it were, preventing indeed the disjointed feeling... I'm off for a few days, have a great weekend all! |
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UniversalMind
United Kingdom
28 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2009 : 1:47:20 PM
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| I practiced TM for many years before turning to ayp and i have to say that i do not find the ayp mantra to be as effective. Maybe it's just a personal thing but my TM mantra seems to bring better experiences and inner tranquility into my life so even though i found ayp to be very nice and sincere i am personally refering back to the path i was on before. Why i found the need to change in the first place i will never know but it taught me a lesson i will never forget.... god bless and good luck! |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2009 : 10:29:26 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2009 : 8:41:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by UniversalMind
I practiced TM for many years before turning to ayp and i have to say that i do not find the ayp mantra to be as effective. Maybe it's just a personal thing but my TM mantra seems to bring better experiences and inner tranquility into my life so even though i found ayp to be very nice and sincere i am personally refering back to the path i was on before. Why i found the need to change in the first place i will never know but it taught me a lesson i will never forget.... god bless and good luck!
Hi Universal Mind,
I originally received TM initiation in 1994, and practiced it intermittently (sometimes with significant dedication) for several years.
I also received Kriya Yoga initiation in 2002, after practicing the initial meditation practices (mantra meditation, essentially identical to TM, except for the mantra being different) taught by the Kriya-related sangha (community) I was connected with (Ananda; offshoot group of the Self-Realization Fellowship - both of which teach the Kriya and meditation practices developed by Paramahansa Yogananda).
In late 2004, or early 2005, I started AYP.
I experienced greater results in 6 months of AYP, than I did with the combined total of TM & Kriya Yoga.
Results that were greater by a LOT.
Within a year of practicing AYP, I experienced results greater than I knew to be possible with meditation and yoga practices.
Within two years of practicing AYP, I experienced results greater than I was capable of imagining to be possible for anyone. In any way. Period.
Since then (another yearish to twoish ) tracking "results" has become much less important; there's too much resting in the bliss of clear-awareness to be enjoyed --- always complete, yet always freshly opening and continuing.
Has it been like that for two years?
Not exactly, but there's not much inclination to reflect on the specifics; it's more like that, than not like that -- especially recently -- though even the very idea of "recently" feels like kind of an odd idea (time is only as rigid as it's thought to be; ditto everything else.)
Simply Put:
AYP Works.
All The Way.
My opinion?
No.
My experience.
I don't know of anyone (and I'm not saying they're not "around" -- I just literally don't know of anyone) who experiences significant realization as a result of TM.
I know at least a handful who have practiced AYP all the way home.
To put it as mildly as language allows:
I have found, and continue to see, AYP as being staggeringly superior to any other set of yoga/meditation practices available, as evaluated by the only criteria that matters.
Have you realized?
Why/How is AYP staggeringly superior ("superior" = more effective, in terms of realization-rich results) to other systems?
I don't actually know --- although I do have what I feel is a solid hypothesis:
TM is focused on mantra meditation, which has been proven to help in the facilitating of enlightenment for several millenia now, all over the world.
Kriya Yoga is focused on pranayama, which has been proven to help in the facilitating of enlightenment, for several millenia now, all over the world.
I have seen a lot of people with years of experience in both these systems, who kind of hit a plateau of feeling a bit of peace/silence when then meditate; maybe some interesting energy or bodily stuff (i.e. the hopping/flying of TM-Sidhi, the visions and ecstasy of Kriya Yoga - saturating blood-oxygen levels can indeed create some interesting highs) - but no ongoing opening and expansion of awareness, per se.
Especially when experiences have a certain excitement value - they can offer the illusion of being valuable yogic results.
In actuality, there's only one valuable yogic result.
Yoga.
Unity.
Awakening.
Enlightenment.
So - what makes AYP different/better/staggeringly superior?
3 Things (in my Kirtanmaniacal  Hypothesis) --
1. Rather than focusing on pranayama or mantra meditation alone, AYP teaches the balanced integration of *both* pranayama (aka spinal breathing) and mantra meditation (aka deep meditation).
2. AYP teaches Self-Pacing -- something I have never seen or heard discussed in any other system. The monitoring and adjustment of practices is *amazing* in its power to maintain the balance that is critical to making it through the straight and narrow way leading to enlightenment. And, as far as I know, self-pacing is unique to AYP (in every other system I've seen, it's either organization-directed, guru-directed, or senior-disciple directed pacing ... or *no* pacing).
3. AYP teaches balanced integration of other facets and pillars of yoga - bhakti (devotion), jnana (inquiry) and so on -- as opposed to most other schools and systems, which are either caught up in the cultural prejudices of their religion, their school, or their guru's ideas -- or, due to one or more of these factors, very unbalanced and caught in delusions (i.e. bhaktas that won't recognize unitive awareness, because "God" is always "other"; shaktas who are all about the energy only, and tend to fry themselves or delude themselves; "traditional" yogis who show that yoga *can* be fundamentalist and dogmatic -- and you don't even need that many wrong ideas to make it that way).
Are there other systems that work?
Of course. But they often involve living in a monastery, or renouncing this, that, or the other thing - or everything, except renouncement itself.
And if they don't involve living in a monastery, they often involve several to quite-a-few years of a *very* bumpy ride (I'm thinking of Zen ... it works, sure .... but it seems a lot like driving on a bumpy country road with no shocks -- half the joy of arriving is the ending of the bumpiness of the ride!) <- I've heard this from Zen practitioners, or those who "awakened out of Zen" - specifically Adyashanti).
And in the end, I've used a lot of words to express a simple reality:
AYP Works.
All the way home.
Just one yogi's experience.
Intending the Awakening of All,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on May 20 2009 8:46:10 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2009 : 8:58:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by UniversalMind
I practiced TM for many years before turning to ayp and i have to say that i do not find the ayp mantra to be as effective. Maybe it's just a personal thing but my TM mantra seems to bring better experiences and inner tranquility into my life so even though i found ayp to be very nice and sincere i am personally refering back to the path i was on before. Why i found the need to change in the first place i will never know but it taught me a lesson i will never forget.... god bless and good luck!
Hello Again Universal Mind,
A few more thoughts on your comparison of "mantric effectiveness" which may be helpful.
Any new mantra takes a bit of time to adjust to -- so it might be helpful to note how much time you gave to evaluating the AYP mantra, exclusively.
6 months? A year? Two years?
If less than 6 months -- you may want to give it a bit more time to integrate/work for you.
Especially if you've used the TM mantra you received for years, as you say - because years will integrate a mantra into your body-mind/energies, in ways that a 6 month "surface test" of another mantra cannot do.
Also, as I said in my other post to you:
The power of the *integration* of pranayama (spinal breathing) and mantra meditation (deep meditation) together *cannot* be overrated, in my experience -- especially when coupled with self-pacing.
If you practice AYP for 6 months - "practice AYP" meaning spinal breathing and meditation, as taught in the AYP lessons -- I'll be surprised if you return to TM at the end of 6 months.
If you practice AYP for a year, and return to TM -- I'll be shocked.
It's not that the mantra (I AM/AYAM) is "better" - and it's not that anything is wrong with TM ... it's about the synthesis ... the integration ... of the pieces.
It's the integration/synthesis of practices and approach which makes it staggeringly more effective than either TM or Kriya Yoga, in my experience.
And, finally ... meditation and yoga isn't about inner tranquility or experiences.
Staying at that level is like being handed access to two checking accounts - one with a hundred dollars in it, which depletes as you spend it, and the other with three million dollars which replenishes with two dollars for every dollar you spend ... and ignoring the second account, even though it's "all yours", too.
Meditation and yoga is about waking up to the reality of enlightenment - and the enlightening of reality.
Enlightenment is real.
Enlightenment is all that's real.
AYP works.
All the way home.
Intending the Awakening of All,
Kirtanman |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2009 : 10:30:05 PM
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Dear Kirtanman,
Wow, I just read your two posts and am really impressed. So how do you define Enlightenment (I know it can't be put into words) but please try to give me an idea of what it is we are seeking.
As you may know I gave up using the mantra (and the other things) at the beginning of the year due to overload and irritability. I had never gone into the deep trance before AYP, the kind where it is like sleep but deeper and harder to get out of. I had experienced wonderful states at other times that I can't even describe; absence of selfness and divine love but never this groggy trance. Even after stopping the mantra I go into that state quite often and still feel that yucky feeling afterward. I try to meditate earlier in the day for my 2nd session and this helps. Some are calling this state samadhi but that doesn't ring true for me. Why because it doesn't make me a better person only cranky.
So I still meditate twice per day and feel a whole lot better. Perhaps later I will go back and try the mantra and pranayama at some point when I am past the residue of overdoing. Your post gives me a desire to try. Thanks for your wonderful discourse.
Love,
Jill |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2009 : 10:53:04 PM
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Hi Kirtanman,
As always I love your posts!
I have practiced AYP for almost a year after lots of hatha and agree with you ...it's working...for me...at this point in time.
But the vibe I get from your post here is that you think that AYP is superior to TM...for UniversalMind.
Not sure why you have this view...his experience...indicates otherwise.
I have a devout Christian friend that says meditation does not work for him...I respect that. We have lots of great discussions and I learn a lot from him even though I don't translate the bible literally like he does.
I don't think there is any need to market AYP as THE superior set of practices.
People are different and what resonates with one person may not resonate with another.
-|- One Truth Many Paths -|- |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2009 : 1:48:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by UniversalMind
I practiced TM for many years before turning to ayp and i have to say that i do not find the ayp mantra to be as effective. Maybe it's just a personal thing but my TM mantra seems to bring better experiences and inner tranquility into my life so even though i found ayp to be very nice and sincere i am personally refering back to the path i was on before. Why i found the need to change in the first place i will never know but it taught me a lesson i will never forget.... god bless and good luck!
Hi UniversalMind:
If the TM program resonates for you, then go with it. See this lesson from way back in 2003: http://www.aypsite.org/19.html
The advice is still the same today. However, we have come a long way with AYP since then, and it may be good to keep an open mind about some things. It does not have to be all one system or another. There are no absolutes in this world.
For instance, while the TM program is very good for some of the key limbs of yoga, it is lacking in some others. So it may make sense to pick up some of the other pieces of yoga, if so inclined. I am talking about spinal breathing pranayama in particular, which adds a big boost to spiritual progress when added in front of meditation, as Kirtanman has pointed out. Other tools that may be short in the TM program are mudras and bandhas, tantric sexual methods, shatkarmas, ecstatic kundalini considerations, self-inquiry, self-pacing, and so on.
You may not feel you need any of this, and that is fine. Nevertheless, it is all there in a reasonably flexible and integrated form, and that is something we did not have back in the 20th century.
I say "back in the 20th century" because all knowledge that is not evolving will be specific to the time in which it became fixed. This applies to spiritual knowledge as much as any other knowledge, though historically it has not been seen that way, due to the secretive (esoteric) nature of spiritual knowledge (techniques especially) over the centuries. So the knowledge was actually deteriorating over time, and then being "revived" by someone from time to time, only to slowly fade away again. Fixed and fading, fixed and fading. Like that. It has been the pattern of spiritual knowledge over the centuries.
Transcendental Meditation and Kriya Yoga are both revivals that occurred in the 20th century of much older knowledge that had faded over time. So they are 20th century knowledge. We could even say that Kriya Yoga is 19th century knowledge, because what Yogananda popularized in the 20th century was a modified version of the revival brought by Lahiri Mahasaya in the 19th century.
In any case, as soon as these became "fixed," they became dated.
Now we are in the 21st century, and new integrations of methods and understandings of the process of human spiritual transformation are occurring. Spiritual knowledge is evolving.
One of the challenges we face today is to put approaches in place so the knowledge will keep evolving indefinitely. If we don't, it could become fixed knowledge, and then start to fade. I am speaking of AYP, which I hope will be ever-renewed and updated as practitioners are able to bring new perspectives from direct experience.
This open and evolutionary approach to utilizing spiritual knowledge seems to be happening in many quarters across the spectrum these days. It is fueled by the combination of the information age with many more people reaching advanced stages of spiritual awakening and feeding back into it, so many others can leverage from there. I'd like to think it is an exponential growth that is occurring. If so, we may be able to move beyond the fixed and fading repetitive scenario at last. It is no longer about nailing the knowledge down into a fixed philosophy or set of tools. It is about doing whatever is necessary on an ongoing basis to facilitate the emergence of human enlightenment on a global scale.
All of which is to say, if it works for you, use it. And if it doesn't work for you, find something that will. Likewise, if it works, but can work better, then do what is necessary to improve it. This is the formula for constant progress.
That applies to all systems of spiritual knowledge, including AYP. That is how applied science is supposed to work. Nothing is carved in stone like it used to be -- literally.
The guru is in you.
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2009 : 12:25:48 AM
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Thankyou.
A fantastic thread. Very interesting and informative.
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Edited by - Akasha on May 22 2009 12:44:54 AM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2009 : 8:15:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by machart
Hi Kirtanman,
As always I love your posts!
I have practiced AYP for almost a year after lots of hatha and agree with you ...it's working...for me...at this point in time.
But the vibe I get from your post here is that you think that AYP is superior to TM...for UniversalMind.
Not sure why you have this view...his experience...indicates otherwise.
I have a devout Christian friend that says meditation does not work for him...I respect that. We have lots of great discussions and I learn a lot from him even though I don't translate the bible literally like he does.
I don't think there is any need to market AYP as THE superior set of practices.
People are different and what resonates with one person may not resonate with another.
-|- One Truth Many Paths -|-
Hi Machart,
Thanks for your comments ... all of them!
I agree that it's important not to "go there" ("my path's better than your path" -- which is *always* erroneous ego-dreaming at its (non)-finest).
And - I do see where my comments could have sounded that way .... and I also see where the sheer amount of words I use can make sifting through stuff a bit difficult -- and I apologize for both of those things .... not so much because there's a "need" to apologize --- but because I agree that clarity on this matter (respect for all paths, while not getting caught up in any concepts, *and* having the courage to "tell it like it is") is of *utmost* importance, for all of us.
In a nutshell: I agree 100% with what Yogani wrote.
If anyone cares to re-read my post (c'mon, it's not *that* long ..... ) ... I think you'll see that what I'm emphasizing is in harmony with what Yogani wrote ... and ... that where I'm emphatic ("staggeringly superior", or whatever I said ... ) is kinda like putting something in bold, or whatever - it's for emphasis -- though I *do* mean it, and I'll explain why.
The quote you referenced is:
Sat Vipraaha Bahudaa Vadanti
"Truth is One, though the Sages know it as Many."
— The Rig Veda (Book I, Hymn CLXIV, Verse 46)
Which, like many awesome Sanskrit mahavakyas ("great statements"), has multiple meanings, and multiple layers of meaning.
The *main* meaning, which I wouldn't have seen, not all that long ago, is that the One Truth is *ALL THIS* .... the "many" ... the display of diversity .. when all of Maya (the word Maya comes from the Sanskrit root "Maa" - to Measure) dissolves ... including the "firmanent" which appears to separate subjectivity and objectivity ... concepts dissolve into reality.
A valid "secondary" meaning, though, and the one most of us understand this reference to mean .... is that the One Truth - Reality - is accessible in many different ways.
This *doesn't* mean, however, that all paths are created equal.
Adyashanti has a great video on this ... I wish I could remember the title ... where he says (something like) - "Many people say 'all paths lead to God' ... and then, with much laughter in his voice, he says: "No they DON'T!!"
.. and continues, kind of chuckling ... "Most paths don't lead anywhere *near* God! They kind of circle around the bottom of the mountain ... or lead in the opposite direction ....!" (And please realize ... Adya's referring to *all paths* ... including the most dogmatic, fundamentalist, exoteric paths ... which not only don't lead to realization/God ... the *block* the way to realization/God.)
That's just fact.
"Spiritual Correctness" can be a good way to show respect ... but it can also kind of come in through the back door as a tool of the ego, itself.
Basically, on the path to the One Truth ... the ONLY valid compass *is* truth ... and if the truth of something can't be known with the mind (i.e. effectively always) ... we have to trust in intuition, ruthless self-honesty, willingness to be wrong, and the guidance of whoever and whatever our heart tells us is right .... that guidance beginning and ending with Inner Silence ... though with various things/people/teachings filling it.)
Regarding TM & AYP:
The primary practice of TM -- Mantra meditation 20 min. 2x per day ... is valid mantra meditation ... and for all intents and purposes ... somewhere in the neighborhood of "close to equal" to the Deep Meditation component of AYP (though I do agree with, and have experienced, Yogani's assessment of the I AM mantra in general).
Basically (in my opinion, which is based in experience/solid hypothesis), mantra becomes entrained into one's system over time ... and the more subtle layers of self and mantra become revealed as practice progresses .. and the distinctions between "different" mantras become less distinct, and less important, and practice deepens.)
As with all other practices, we start with an object in awareness ... which opens up the true nature of self and subjective experience.
In the beginning, the "objective sound" and specific vibration of mantra *do* matter, though ... and both TM and AYP offer mantra(s) that are effectively as good as it gets.
Here's an analogy that will hopefully clear up my "emphatic attitude":
If someone is training for a very important athletic event, and posted:
"I tried your AYP nutrition program, and didn't like it as well as TM nutrition, because I felt a little healthier with TM nutrition."
I might respond with:
Well, AYP nutrition is based on the benefits that come from synthesizing nutrition and exercise *together* .... and in my experience, and at least the experience of a handful of athletes here .... nutrition and exercise *together* is *staggeringly superior* to nutrition alone. If you practice AYP's program of nutrition *plus* exercise -- along with our Self-Pacing, concerning how it's working .... I'll be *shocked* if you return to nutrition-only, after a year.
Showing Universal Mind the "respect" of saying that his (?) current path of "nutrition only" is "as beneficial", and will produce the "same results" as nutrition plus exercise .... isn't really showing respect ..... because that statement isn't true.
As mentioned in another post ("G-Spot") thread .... showing respect is very important to me.
In this case, though -- showing respect to Universal Mind, and his (?) presumed interest in awakening -- and to everyone here, and their/your presumed interest in awakening -- meant emphasizing the differences in quality between the results of AYP and the results of TM --- when I have practiced both for years, each.
My *experience* has been that the *synthesis* of pranayama and meditation ("nutrition and exercise") is staggeringly superior to meditation alone.
And, if anyone compared both systems, by practice -- for six months, or a year ... I *would* be surprised/shocked if that person returned to the "one-legged" system, after experiencing the two-legged one.
The same applies (<- my opinion is the same) regarding Kriyabans (Kriya yogis/yoginis), who go from one-legged pranayama emphasis, to two-legged AYP.
Human neurospirituality *is* similar enough, that the chances of someone truly getting results that are as good or better, on any level, from a one-legged system (i.e. TM/Kriya as I experienced them) ... are very, very remote, based on everything I know and have experienced, regarding all of the above.
I'm not sure everyone here gets this, yet:
What we're talking about here (in the AYP Forums) is the *MOST* important thing that any of us can or will do, in life.
PERIOD.
Sometimes, intuition has me emphasizing this fact, a bit.
A lot, lately.
For one reason:
AYP Works --- *Gloriously*.
Awakening itself literally can't help but say so ..... there's just too much LOVE not to ..... normal, even-keel, casual, universal One LOVE.
As Adyashanti says:
"The world is not my concern; it is myself."
That used to sound like such a strange statement to me.
Now ... it's feeling .... well, obvious.
Intending Enlightenment for All,
Kirtanman |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2009 : 9:33:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jillatay
Dear Kirtanman,
Wow, I just read your two posts and am really impressed. So how do you define Enlightenment (I know it can't be put into words) but please try to give me an idea of what it is we are seeking.
Hi Jill,
Thank you for your very kind words.
I'll do all I can to help as/if I can.
First & Foremost: it's all in the AYP Lessons -- and candidly, with respect to what *can* be said -- Yogani expresses it more clearly and succinctly than I do. By a lot.
Clear, simple brevity is one of Yogani's true talents.
Don't tell anyone ... but I'm not so sure it's one of mine.
Per your question though, I'll try to help with pointing to authenticity in .... whatever you might care to call it ..... Awakening, Realization, Enlightenment ... or simply "Inner Silence", "Pure Bliss Consciousness" or "Results":
An *idea* about it is precisely, universally, what can and ought *never* to be given.
Why?
Because ideas are the very thing which veils it.
You know I'm a "Word/Word-Play" guy ... and when I say:
Enlightenment is Real.
Enlightenment is All That's Real. ....
I mean *exactly* that --- as in:
Enlightenment is All That's Real ---- and not anything that is unreal, or distorted.
The mind will try to understand from its limited viewpoint ... and drive the thought-me crazier in the process.
And some of the stuff I'm saying to you would have *really* bugged me to hear, not long back ... and I truly hope it doesn't do the same to you, or anyone reading ...... unless that would be helpful to your awakening, of course.
In a nutshell: the thinking mind *is* the problem .... human consciousness is *so* conditioned that "I am who I think I am" ... and that therefore "my" thoughts have something to do with all this (realization, etc.) ... that it is utterly blinded to reality.
Which is what?
Which is: consciousness is infinitely deeper and more vast than the thinking mind ... and yet .... in some mysterious, yet joyously REAL way ... it's ALL right here, right now, as well .... utterly - truly - completely - REALLY.
There really *isn't* anything to understand, per se.
There's only opening, and dropping the sense of limitation, by turning away from identification with thoughts at much as naturally possible (without over-correcting, and thus "thinking of thoughts" as bad; it's more learning to be easy with everything ..... most of all, being gentle with yourself.)
Reality is *Actually* One ... and in some way none can understand, yet all actually are .... it *is* the One creating this post .... *not* just in the writing of it ... but the *reading* of it, as well.
Don't try to get it with your mind (anyone reading) .... just take it in.
Let it open you.
Reality is easy.
Dreaming that reality must be fought is hard.
quote:
As you may know I gave up using the mantra (and the other things) at the beginning of the year due to overload and irritability. I had never gone into the deep trance before AYP, the kind where it is like sleep but deeper and harder to get out of. I had experienced wonderful states at other times that I can't even describe; absence of selfness and divine love but never this groggy trance. Even after stopping the mantra I go into that state quite often and still feel that yucky feeling afterward. I try to meditate earlier in the day for my 2nd session and this helps. Some are calling this state samadhi but that doesn't ring true for me. Why because it doesn't make me a better person only cranky.
Well, crankiness and samadhi aren't always mutually exclusive ... but crankiness is basically a symptom of overdoing in *some* area of practice ... and it sounds like you've made some wise adjustments, there.
Regarding that, I'll offer the same advice I think any experienced AYPer, including Yogani would probably offer:
Add practices in *gently*, easily & *gradually*, as feels right to do so.
If you want to try mantra ... try it for 5 mins., and not 20 mins.
Ditto spinal breathing.
I didn't mean to imply, in my post to Universal Mind, that you'll be left out in the cold, if you're not doing the full "AYP regimen", every day.
Individual adjustments are pertinent for all of us ... and it sounds like you have a good handle on the ones you've needed.
My point was more that dismissing the benefits of AYP in the way that Universal Mind appeared to have done ... might effectively be throwing the baby out with the ritual bathwater, or however that goes ....
As you may have noticed, I emphasized Self-Pacing as one of the "pillars" of AYP ... and the fact that (in my experience) ... Self-Pacing offers some *very* powerful value ... value that, as far as I know, if unique to AYP.
The Self-Pacing pillar of AYP is exactly what you've been paying attention to ... and 100% appropriately, it sounds.
You're not "missing anything" by the way you're practicing, currently .... you're actually *continuing* needed purification, in *exactly* the way your neurospiritual system needs at this time.
Practicing "vanilla" AYP would likely create two steps back for every half-step forward, given the result you've had --- make sense?
As In: if I had your identical neurospiritual make-up, the wisest course for me, practice-wise ... would be something *very* similar to what you're doing, right now.
If you're driving down the freeway, and notice you have a flat ... continuing to drive at freeway speeds with the flat will *not* get you home the fastest/bestest ... you might not end up at "home" at all (<-- limited analogy, but pertinent ... ultimately, we can't "avoid" home ... but we *can* derail our sadhana by over-doing when self-pacing is indicated.)
And ... it sounds like you're wisely avoiding the over-doing ... and testing the new tire by driving around the block before heading back out on the highway.
That's only wise ..... and .... you'll be home before you know it ... and/or as soon as you stop trying to know it.
No kidding.
Most of us with any "significant results" from sadhana probably cost ourselves a few extra years at least, with all the reliance on thinking and information.
Let go; "drop"; practice; LOVE.
Repeat.
That's it.
Oh ... and of course, Have FUN. <-- Far more important than thought-mind or social-conditioning will ever allow you to know.
"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself."
~Some poet whose name I don't remember.
quote:
So I still meditate twice per day and feel a whole lot better. Perhaps later I will go back and try the mantra and pranayama at some point when I am past the residue of overdoing. Your post gives me a desire to try. Thanks for your wonderful discourse.
Love,
Jill
You're very, very welcome, Jill.
I'm glad it was helpful.
The awesome thing about the reality we refer to as "enlightenment" ... it's equal-opportunity reality.
None of us is really closer-to or farther-away from it .... it's *actually* the very Awareness reading, writing and comprising these words ... not in some magical-mystical way ... simply in the "there's only one actual field of awareness" way.
It doesn't seem that way to the thinking mind.
Which is why we go deeper; why we open; why we release past all the concepts and ideas.
The silence opened via AYP ... via all valid meditation and spiritual practices ... *is* the straight and narrow way that leads all the way Home ... all the way Here, Now.
Really.
With Love, Peace & Intending Enlightenment for All,
Kirtanman
PS- I hope the main point of all my enthusiasm comes through for everyone: I don't say "AYP Works" to *announce* that it worked for me; I *know* it works; part of really knowing is not feeling the need to tell anyone from a "Hey, look at my awesome experience/results!" standpoint.
I emphasize the results I've gotten from AYP for One Reason; One Purpose.
Which Is?
They can be your results, too.
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2009 : 9:51:22 PM
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Hi Kirtanman!
Firstly, I deeply respect your views and opinions. You are much more well versed in things spiritual than me. You have been at it longer and I continue to read everything you write ...I even love your long posts!
My views just differ in one respect...I don't claim to know what is right or more beneficial for another person. I only can discern from experience what is right or what works for me. I can point the way to others and say AYP is working for me..but I can't say for certain that the same method will work for them...or that their method is flawed....at all.
Here is my point...maybe someone has to go down a different path (the wrong path in your opinion) for a while because it is critical they learn something...and pain is such a great teacher.
Whenever someone says "That's just fact". when discussing things spiritual..I wince a little...how do I argue with Adya's fact that you stated above... that some people are doing it wrong but he's doing it right? That all paths don't lead to God...but his does. Who defines what and where God is?...does Adyashanti? He may be way more in touch with truth than I am (I don't use the term enlightened)...but I'm sure my path through life is way different than his so I may have to stumble up (and down) more rocky, twisty roads than him to find glimpses of the truth here and there.
Kirtanman...I can feel the LOVE in your posts...I think you, Yogani and everyone on this forum are doing a great job of guiding people in the search for their own truth...whatever that may be.
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Edited by - machart on May 22 2009 11:24:14 PM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2009 : 04:06:03 AM
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Hi,
I would just like to add to this thread if I can. I agree entirely when Yogani says things need to evolve.I have been involved in many practices before I started on the Kundalini path and although I don't practice AYP and I follow my own guru's teachings, I still adjust or add to my practices when inner guidance leads me this way.As Yogani has said before 'one size does not fit all' and that applies to any practices.One can 'borrow' from other systems and find what suits them and this forum is still a great learning source even if one does not practice anything at all.
L&L
Dave |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2009 : 3:54:14 PM
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Dear K,
I must be doing something right because it HAS become fun again and I look forward to it all now.
Love to you,
Jill |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2009 : 09:01:41 AM
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I appreciate those posts of yours, Kirtaman.
I've been along this path for a short while,a few years, and it's not been plain sailing at all, but Have had glimpses of how life can be along the way.. I feel i have in AYP at least something to get my sadhana back on track,whatever that is, again..And i thank you for sharing your wisdom an insight,and the long posts. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2009 : 9:26:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by machart
Hi Kirtanman!
Firstly, I deeply respect your views and opinions. You are much more well versed in things spiritual than me. You have been at it longer and I continue to read everything you write ...I even love your long posts!
My views just differ in one respect...I don't claim to know what is right or more beneficial for another person. I only can discern from experience what is right or what works for me. I can point the way to others and say AYP is working for me..but I can't say for certain that the same method will work for them...or that their method is flawed....at all.
Here is my point...maybe someone has to go down a different path (the wrong path in your opinion) for a while because it is critical they learn something...and pain is such a great teacher.
Whenever someone says "That's just fact". when discussing things spiritual..I wince a little...how do I argue with Adya's fact that you stated above... that some people are doing it wrong but he's doing it right? That all paths don't lead to God...but his does. Who defines what and where God is?...does Adyashanti? He may be way more in touch with truth than I am (I don't use the term enlightened)...but I'm sure my path through life is way different than his so I may have to stumble up (and down) more rocky, twisty roads than him to find glimpses of the truth here and there.
Kirtanman...I can feel the LOVE in your posts...I think you, Yogani and everyone on this forum are doing a great job of guiding people in the search for their own truth...whatever that may be.
Hi Machart,
Thanks for your kind words, and your wise comments ... and the way you said them (with such respect and clarity).
I agree with you; if I appeared to feel otherwise, it's due to lack of clarity in my expression .... and not due to my actual attitudes.
My experiences via AYP -- my result with AYP ... have been nothing short of amazing; I know at least a few others who would say the same.
The fact that AYP is working for me is actually all I meant to convey to Universal Mind.
Along with some of my hypotheses as to why.
And I have no sense of "knowing a better way" for *anyone* .... not even *myself*.
Really.
It's just about opening .... and being open enough to continue authentically opening.
Part of the expression of the authentic opening was what I wrote before in this thread.
Part of the expression of the authentic opening is what I'm writing now.
Hopefully, this authentic expression may be a little more clear.
Intending Enlightenment for All,
Kirtanman |
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Anyone done TM and now AYP?
